Episode 189: Hawaiian Night Marchers (with Kamuela Kaneshiro)
/We are joined by Kamuela Kaneshiro of Legends from the Pacific, who gives us the lowdown on the spiritual and paranormal stories of Hawaii. Kamu shares his first hand accounts with the Night Marchers, and his own paranormal investigations.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of murder, gender dynamics, incest, urination, war/battle, blood, and human remains.
Guest
Born and raised in Honolulu, Hawaii. Kamuela or “Kamu”, is an Asian Pacific Islander geek, and storyteller. He began podcasting in 2004 with the weekly three-hour radio show/podcast, “Off the Air’s: Geek Nation”.
“Legends from the Pacific” utilizes Kamu’s cultural knowledge, and television/film background to craft stories of people, beliefs, and traditions to help promote Pacific cultures.
Kamu obtained a BA & MA in Communication from Hawaii Pacific University. Studied at the University of Hertfordshire, UK. Appeared multiple times at San Diego Comic-Con as an invited professional panelist. Lectured on film, television, and Batman. Wrote the “I Didn't Mean to” series, and “Genre Analysis: The Gangster, The Evolved Detective, and The Dark Knight”. He is also a magician member of the Magic Castle.
You can find a list of Dr. Glen Grant’s books, as mentioned in this episode, here.
Housekeeping
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- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends the audio fiction podcast, Arden. Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
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Sponsors
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is Episode 189: Hawaiian Night Marchers with Kamuela Kaneshiro.
Julia: Amanda, welcome back. How was your vacation?
Amanda: Oh, thank you! It was really fun. I read about seven books, went swimming, got one mysterious bite that I hope wasn't a tick and I think was just a spider.
Julia: Fingers crossed.
Amanda: And don't worry. I'm monitoring it and all it's on one of my tattoos. So I'm just like, I don't know it's blue. And like, I can't tell you what the color is underneath that.
Julia: Who could say?
Amanda: You know? just, just life things. But no, it was, it was lovely. Thank you and Editor Eric for holding down while I was gone.
Julia: Of course. It's my pleasure, as always.
Amanda: Do you know who also holds it down for us each and every week, Jules?
Julia: Is it our new patrons?
Amanda: Our new patrons! Rachel, Carly, Polly, Chelsea, La Vie Boheme, Anna, and Kaitlyn, who joined the distinguished ranks of our patrons such as our supporting producer level patrons. Megan Moon, Keegan, Landon, Mr. Folk, Jen, Hannah, Alicia, Sarah, Niki, Megan Linger, Debra, Molly, Skyla, Neal, Jessica & Phil Fresh.
Julia: And I think Amanda the kind of people who I would want to go for a swim with and wouldn't want them to get bitten by a mysterious bug.
Amanda: No, no.
Julia: Are our legend level patrons.
Amanda: Chelsea, Donald, Eden, Drew, Avonlea, Clara, Frances, Josie, Morgan, Bea Me Up Scotty, Audra, Chris, Mark, Sarah, & Jack Marie. Thank you for your ongoing and sustaining support. You along with our other patrons make it possible for this to be our jobs and we couldn't make a living without you.
Julia: We couldn't, we really couldn't.
Amanda: And Julia, our guest, Kamuela, after we recorded did a very, very nice gesture of sending us a care package of Hawaiian treats. And there was candy there were macadamia nuts. They were absolutely amazing. So no matter what you are drinking this week, or we drink during this episode, Hawaiian macadamia nuts, they're a great pairing.
Julia: Also Hawaiian chocolate really, really, really good.
Amanda: Really good! Kamuela, you're the bomb. And Jules, remind me what have you been like reading, watching or listening to over these last few days and weeks?
Julia: I've been reading a bunch of books from my childhood lately the, the Bloody Jack Adventures. I'll recommend some of those in another, another week. But I have been listening to the new season of Arden now, Amanda, I think it talks about Arden on the show before we had Christopher Dole, who is one of the writers.
Amanda: It's Shakespearean, it's gay. It's wonderful.
Julia: It's like gay Much Ado About Nothing meets True Crime and the first season is Romeo and Juliet which I didn't realize that until like halfway through the season.
Amanda: Nope. Me neither.
Julia: I'm like, they sound really familiar, what's going on with this? It is incredible. The new season is actually going to be doing Hamlet. And if you listen to Episode Two of Season Two, you might hear my voice in a one hour special of Measure to Measure, just sayin'.
Amanda: It is absolutely incredible. We love this team. And previous guests Christopher Dole, Emily VanDerWerff are our co-creators. And listen anything by them, I'm going to enjoy. So you should totally check it out. Arden is now midway through season two, you can find them in any podcast app ArdenPodcast.com.
Julia: It's really really good. Please listen to it, you're going to like it, we promise.
Amanda: And in addition to Arden, you know that Multitude has you covered in terms of great podcasts to listen to. Julia and I are players in Join the Party, where our current modern story is getting a distinctly superhero turn and we are only eight episodes into the new campaign. So if you want to pick up a great fun, fictional story that makes you feel good about the world while also having intrigue and like real issues that we talked about and deal with, Join the Party is for you.
Julia: Heck yeah, I've also been loving Meddling Adults. Mike is doing such a great job making people try to sound as smart as kid detectives, and I think that's really impressive because I was definitely not as smart as a kid detective. But he had a great episode with the team from Hey Riddle Riddle recently and it was absolutely hilarious.
Amanda: It was so fun. I've also really been enjoying on Potterless as he goes through A Very Potter musical and the sequel. One of which, it features our own Julia here, and it is absolutely like it's a different thing from the books. It's a fan work and talking about kind of the context and the success of a fan adaptation, or fan work is something that I have spent a lot of my life thinking about. So seeing it happen on the show is wonderful. And by the way, on Horse co-creator, Eric Silver has moved on to work onto different projects. So the new co-host, Adam Mamawala has his first episode out now and he's absolutely hilarious. We had a happy hour with him with all of the Multitude cast and crew, which is all of us were all hosts in Multitude. And it was extremely cool to meet somebody new and to learn about him and to get a sense of the kinds of stories that he is going to be bringing to the show. So Horse you can listen to the first 52 episodes with Eric and Mike and now with Mike and Adam 53 Plus.
Julia: Yeah, I messaged Mike after the first episode with Adam came out and I told him, I'm like I really like this one. It's like going to a bar with someone you know really well and then someone that you, that person knows really well but you haven't met yet. So if you like that like energy that Amanda and I have or it's like we've been best friends for a really long time. That's the kind of energy that Adam brings to Horse now.
Amanda: And if you want to listen to a beautiful 10 episode completed fictional worlds, Next Stop is for you created by Eric Silver and worked on by me and Julia and Brandon Grugle. Next up is an audio sitcom about your mid to late 20s. When everyone is changing around you and you're kind of worried that you might not catch up. It is so fun. It is so reminiscent of sitcoms, the music is great. The sound design is great. The actors are so incredible, and it is just a wonderful kind of way to like escape and to laugh and to live in a heightened reality that again, is not our own right now. So all of these shows and more are available in your podcast app. Just search for the word Multitude, or at multitude.productions.
Julia: Check it out. Check it out!
Amanda: So we hope you enjoy this episode with Kamuela Kaneshiro, check out his podcast, Legends from the Pacific. And without further ado, enjoy Episode 189: Hawaiian Night Marchers.
[Music]
Amanda: We are joined today by Kamuela Kaneshiro, who is an author and podcaster, the host of the fantastic show, Legends From the Pacific that every single Spirits listener would love. And we're going to talk about some absolutely wonderfully creepy-cool Tales from Hawaii. Welcome, Kamu.
Kamuela: Aloha, thank you for having me on the show. It's great.
Julia: We're very excited to have you. So I'm curious what story you're going to be bringing to the table for us and our listeners today?
Kamuela: Yes, I'm going to be talking about the Night Marchers. They are considered Hawaii's most deadliest ghosts or supernatural being. Basically the Night Marchers are the ghosts of the dead Aliʻi or chiefs from the Hawaiian, from Hawaii's background in history.
Julia: This is the first time I've actually heard about the Night Marchers.
Kamuela: Yes.
Julia: So I'm very, very excited to learn something new.
Kamuela: Right. Yes. The Night Marchers are, they are seen on all the islands and they march on certain nights, it's believed. That they go from Heiau, which is a temple or sacred area to Heiau or sacred area. And they are considered the most deadly. Because it's believed if you see them, and they see you, you know, of course not from a distance but close up, then they will actually kill you.
Amanda: Oh, no.
Kamuela: So if you actually are killed in this way, you will join their procession.
Julia: Oh, interesting.
Amanda: Oh my gosh, that's so, that's so wonderful, like the never-ending, you know, kind of like self-multiplying sort of procession.
Kamuela: Right. Right. And the history behind Night Marchers is that back in ancient Hawaii there kahu, and it was all too Basically preserve the elite is mana or power. Because the Hawaiians believed the Ali'i were descended from gods. So because of that they had certain powers or mana to command these, their people. So because of that, the kahu were established. So the Ali'i would preserve their mana. And they could be a number of things including just by seeing an Ali'i that was a lower-ranking member of their tribe like a commoner. If they saw an Ali'i, then they would actually they believe that the commoner would be taking the Ali'i's mana, and so the only solution for that would be immediate death.
Julia: Huh.
Kamuela: So they would actually grab the commoner on the spot quickly, so that- and they would usually kill them very brutally, in a way just so that they can receive their mana back to the Ali'i.
Julia: Oh okay.
Kamuela: So if you saw an elite he that was a way to possibly get their mana, if you have more common thing is, if an elite is shadow fell upon a commoner. They believe that the commoner would be getting some of the Ali'i mana
Amanda: Is this like transference of mana by sight only? something that comes up in other tales.
Kamuela: There's actually a number of different tales and so forth. But if the shadow part that was a major thing, so when the procession was approaching, they would end up drumming, so that the commoners would hear the procession arriving, and there'd be blowing of conch shells in the distance to announce the arrival of the procession. So it would give the commoners time to flee, stop what they're doing and head indoors or if they weren't around, well, If they couldn't get indoors, they just went bowed on the ground and watched the shadows pass by to ensure that the shadows of the precession did not touch themselves. Because if they did that, they would be killed.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: That's really interesting.
Kamuela: Another of the Kahu's was, of course, the, one of the more common ones was men could not eat with women in the same room. So and that's actually been seen in other Pacific Islander as well as Asian cultures. We mentioned or I mentioned before, that the Night Marchers would actually be going from Heiau to Heiau. And the shadow part was very concerned about their shadows. So the Ali'i he had their procession and it was for their lesser Ali'i as well. And it's believed the lesser Ali'i and their attendance could interact where they're the only ones that could interact with the elite. So that they did not have to worry about losing so much of the mana. And in fact there are there's a belief that mana should be maintained. Going back to what your previous question. They believe that there was what they refer to as The Unbroken Rainbow. So there was a lot of incest going on for the Ali'i so that they could maintain their power. And I believe to a degree that was seen in certain Egyptian mythologies as well.
Julia: Yeah, they, they specifically. And I feel like most early religions did have just a lot of incest. The Greeks also just, it's a lot of marrying of the sisters and the brothers. So it's not super uncommon, as we've talked about on the show before.
Kamuela: Right, right, right. And so this, this brings us to the night. It's speculated that the Night Marchers march on what is known as Pō Kāne. Pō Kāne is the 27th Night of the Hawaiian Lunar Calendar. The Hawaiians follow the lunar calendar. And because of that, the night of Kāne. Kāne was a Hawaiian God, one of the four major God's and he was the God or a Kū of the nature and of water. Pō Kāne was important because it's believed that the Ali'i would use this night to go and tend to the sacred areas and the temples or Heiaus. Only the Ali'i you could go inside the Heiau and on Pō Kāne, it's believed that gave them enough light. They could see what they're doing. And it provided the smallest shadow for them. So they didn't have to worry about their shadow touching other people are having an elongated shadow to lose the mana.
Julia: That's super interesting. I- that's incredible. I really love that.
Amanda: Yeah, I was I was thinking the fact that shadows are so important. I wonder why the Night Marchers are at night, if they, you know, have the chance to gain power from others. What do you think the reason is that they march at night instead with presumably, you know, lighter or no shadow.
Kamuela: I think that The Night Marchers just go at night because it's just easier. They couldn't always be going out and disrupting the commoners what they're doing for the villages and for their people as far as fishing and such.
Amanda: Sure.
Kamuela: Hawaii's also pretty hot. They had cloaks and ceremonial headdresses made of feathers. And I think that that would also be wild ceremonial. It's very unclear really about like why they would march specifically at night. So...
Amanda: That sounds like reason enough to me.
Kamuela: Yeah.
Amanda: I would also choose to or to the coolest part of the day-
Kamuela: Right.
Amanda: -with my, you know, full regalia on.
Kamuela: So there are ways to survive the Night Marchers if you actually encounter them. They usually like I mentioned are heard drumming throughout the night. You can hear drumming, it's not the traditional drumming you hear. It's like a thumping sound that gets louder and more frequent. And of course, you hear a conch shell blowing. And if you do hear that you generally want to head indoors, runaway, you are of course safe if you've seen them from a distance, like I mentioned before. There's speculation over things like for example, there's a myth that says that or belief that says if you strip off all your clothes and urinate on yourself, then it is seen as you're seen as unclean. So because of that, they will not want to touch you, or you can play dead. That's another thing. But the thing that really acts as a barrier is the Hawaiian ti leaves. They are not like the drinking tea. They're like, I believe that their scientific term is Cordyline fruticosa. So, that type of plant if you plant those plants around your house, then they will not, they will go around your house. They, because they can go through walls and they've been known to go through houses and such. In fact, it's believed that if your front door lines up with your back door, that is a tunnel that acts as a vortex to attract ghosts and possibly the Night Marchers.
Julia: I love that detail, that's so cool.
Kamuela: Yeah.
Amanda: That's amazing. I also love landscaping for spiritual protection.
Kamuela: Yeah.
Julia: Of course, you do.
Kamuela: You've got other things going on. There's been cases where people have encountered like The Night Marchers walking through the house and they'd have to plant __ plants for protection. The ti plants are sacred to Hawaiians because they are believed to be a sacred thing in our ceremonies because they are attached with the god Lono as well as Kāne are two of the main Hawaiian gods. And because of that attachment, Lono is the god of Prosperity. And there's also the goddess Laka. There's confusion over that because a lot of people believe the goddess of the hula is Hiʻiaka but it's other people consider it Laka. The ti leaves are actually used in Hawaiian ceremonies for blessings, as well as it's believed to bring good luck. So you'll see commonly, ti leaf lays that are given to people for good luck.
Amanda: Hmm, I love it. It's so versatile.
Kamuela: Oh, yeah, it's, it's a multi-use item. So...
Amanda: Plant some outside your house, you have them for ceremonies, give them to visitors, it sounds great.
Kamuela: It's very common. You actually have ti leaves out there. And we do have ti leaves outside the house. So...
Amanda: You're covered.
Kamuela: Yeah. Well, on top of that the ultimate way to survive the Night Marchers is and this brings us back to what we were saying earlier about if you die and join their procession, the ultimate way they a lot of people believe to survive Night Marchers is if your relative is in the procession, or ancestor. Because it's believed if you see the night martyrs and they're about to kill you, your ancestor in that procession will step forward and say stop and claim you as theirs, and you'll be spared.
Julia: Oh, I love some ancestral protection.
Kamuela: Yes.
Amanda: Oh yeah, instead of you know your family is cursed or just befelled you know, earlier in your family's legacy, and now it will you as well. That idea that you, you know can be protected is so wonderful.
Kamuela: Yes, and it's believed my family is protected because we're one of the few Hawaiians out there that have a direct lineage to a Hawaiian Ali'i. And we are related to the Kaua'i chief or Kaua'i Ali'i. Chief Ka’iana, who was one of Kamehameha's most trusted advisors and help him with his campaign.
Amanda: Hell yeah!
Julia: That is incredibly cool.
Kamuela: Oh, also there's been reports of Asians being spared from the Night Marchers because their ancestors who were plantation workers were part of the Night Marcher procession, and they saved them.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: Very cool.
Kamuela: I've seen them, marchers, as well and encountered them. And the, it's common for Hawaiians to, we're very spiritual people. And we basically say if you're a Hawaiian and you have not encountered three different three things, three unexplained things in your life, then you're just not paying attention. And so there was a, there was a Hawaiian master storyteller. His name was Dr. Glen Grant, he collected a lot of the stories and he was the expert in Hawaiian mythology. He was from California. I think that it's awesome that he was not a Hawaiian or what we refer to as a Haole. And now I just want to be clear that Haole, I was taught that the word, Haole is not derogatory or negative. It's all in how you use it. And it's how the, it's the words That come before the term Haole, because Haole started off as-
Amanda: Sure.
Kamuela: Ha, which is breath and Ola or Ola as a short form of A'ole, which means none. So no breath. And then what most people don't realize is, as whaling industry picked up in Hawaii, Hawaiians needed a way to have money to provide for their family. So because of that-
Amanda: Of course.
Kamuela: -it's common that Hawaiians would end up joining whaling vessels and then going out to sea and then making having families. So you had Hawaiians that were not born in Hawaii, and they needed to try and find out a way to distinguish everyone. So at that point in time, it was common for Hawaiians to be called Ha’oles or Haoles. Hawaiians, in local pidgin, that uses a lot of descriptors. For example, the catch-all phrase for that could mean anything is da kine. And so it's like, oh, pass me the da kine over, you're going to, you're going to the da kine. So basically speaking, all ethnicities have their own slang word in Hawaii. So it's not just the Caucasians that were singled out with that. Wow, we got off on a totally different tangent. So.
Julia: No, I love tangents. We love tangents here.
Amanda: That's the show.
[Midroll]
Amanda: Julia, when I am away like I was last week, I really like to get back in touch with other parts of creativity and just the hobbies that I have that I might not make time for in my daily life. And last week, I took a course in something that I completely have no skills in, which is called graphic design, Create a Bold, Colorful Album Cover by Temi Coker on Skillshare. And this was such a fun way to think about design and pattern and color and inspiration and even though I don't have an album to me a cover for it was really relaxing and kind of exercise a different part of my brain that I can use in daily life. And the great thing about Skillshare is that it has courses like that. So whether you're, you know wanting to develop graphic design for your career or like me, you just want to kind of watch it to relax and to take up a creative hobby Skillshare has options for you. Their classes are designed for real life and all of the circumstances that come with it creative self-discovery and expression can settle your mind and being creative in general and being spontaneous can help break up the routine of whatever your life looks like now. Their classes are short videos are good quality and you can even connect with other students and instructors in the forums. So go to Skillshare.com/Spirits2 where our listeners will get two free months of premium membership. That's two free months of unlimited access to all of Skillshare's classes. That's skillshare.com/Spirits2.
Julia: Skillshare.com/Spirits2. Amanda, it has been so hot in my new apartment lately and I just don't have enough clothes that are nice and light and breezy. So when Stitch Fix sent me an email reminding me that I had a fix coming up I immediately sent them a messaged back be like, please send me light clothes I'm so hot all the time. And of course, Stitch Fix delivered because Stitch Fix is a personal styling company that brings you the world of fashion and style. It's a completely different and fun way to find clothes that you love that's all about you every time like they listen to my suggestions and they really, really deliver So to get started you just have to go to StitchFix.com/Spirits to set up your profile and they'll deliver these great looks personalized just for you in the colors that you like and the styles that you like and in the budget that you like, which is super important.
Amanda: I also requested a fix recently and I got to ask them for something that you cannot filter for when online shopping which is I am never going to wear a strapless bra do not make me. So please, when you send me tank tops and dresses and jumpsuits make sure that they have straps so I don't have to like you know weirdly work around them. Like I need, you know, a wider strap and all of the stuff that came absolutely worked for me and that's never something that I could request or filter for online.
Julia: That's smart. That's really smart and it's really, really simple. All you have to do is pay a $20 styling fee for each fix which is credited towards anything you keep so if you keep any shirt, any pants, any skirt, any dress that $20 immediately goes to that shirt or skirt or whatever. You can schedule it at any time there's no subscription required plus shipping returns and exchanges are always easy and free. So Stitch Fix is there to do the hard work for you. They make great style effortless for everyone including women, kids, men, non binary folks, whatever you'd like. So to get started today go to StitchFix.com/Spirits and you'll get 25% off when you keep everything in your fix. Again, that's stitchfix.com/Spirits for 25% off when you keep everything in your Fix.
Amanda:StitchFix.com/Spirits.
Julia: Thanks, Stitch Fix.
Amanda: And speaking of it being so hot outside, Julia. I really have been loving the meal boxes recently because that means I don't have to go to the grocery store, go to the whole process in line outside, and then walk home with heavy groceries. And every plate has been a really, really great way to not just get more convenient meals sent home but also cheaper alternatives to takeout and delivery. The recipes come together in about 30 minutes, which is definitely faster than that whole grocery store routine that I talked about, or even starting a meal from scratch at home like I would just on my own and they even offer a contactless delivery to your doorstep so that you can do your home cooking on a budget, safely.
Julia: Yeah, I actually really loved the last box that we got from Every Plate there was this one dish in there that was like a baked gnocchi with sausage and it was absolutely incredible. I have been craving like Italian takeout for a really long time from a very specific Italian place. And I just like wasn't able to get there because I didn't have my car and Jake was at work and then so I just put it all together and I made that dish and it satisfied that need so much. It was absolutely delicious.
Amanda: I did the same thing with their breaded chicken tenders. And I was like, Oh yes, fantastic. I don't have to order takeout. And we worried about the environmental impact and the, you know, the heat and the price and all of that because I had Every Plate, and they're now even offsetting 100% of their carbon emissions, which I think is fantastic. So if you want to try out every plate for yourself, you can get three weeks of every plate meals for only $2.99 per meal, aka cheaper than iced coffee by going to EveryPlate.com and entering the code Spirits3.
Julia: Yep, that is three weeks of every plate meals for only 299 per meal by going to EveryPlate.com and entering the code Spirits3.
Amanda: We know you'll enjoy it. Thanks, Every Plate! And now let's get back to the show.
Kamuela: Yeah, so the basically, going back to the Dr. Grant. Dr. Grant was a master storyteller. And when I met him, it was interesting because within a few seconds of walking into his store, he was in the process of talking to somebody and he said, what I'd like to do is form a society to investigate the things in Hawaii. And I immediately walked up to him and said, if you do such a thing, I'll be the first to sign up and we formed the Hawaii Ghost Hunter Society and...
Julia: Incredible!
Amanda: That sounds like a movie.
Kamuela: I've had my own investigations, private investigations growing up, and he was impressed that I had such a knowledge of the paranormal of not just Hawaiian paranormal, but also world paranormal and mythological knowledge. And when I was a kid, I was we were driving around Makapuʻu. Makapuʻu Point and that is on the East Coast of O'ahu. And there's a ridge with a lighthouse, it's very popular, and we were driving home and it was possibly one o'clock, maybe two o'clock in the morning. Along the ridge, I saw a number of things lined up, just stretching along the entire ridge. And I told Dr. Grant this because I didn't know what it was. Now, Makapuʻu Point is a sacred area, because Hawaiians believe it's one of the few places that is known as a jumping-off point or a leaping point where if a Hawaiian died, their spirit would go to these places and leap off into the horizon into the next world. And I thought that's what I was seeing was spirits lined up along the bridge. But Dr. Grant actually told me that I saw a rare version of the Night Marchers. And what made this group rare was that they were gods and demigods marching. And so that was that procession.
Julia: I have goosebumps.
Amanda: You like fully cut to the feeling of this myth like you got incredibly to the heart of it and you saw the shiny foil Blue Dragon version.
Kamuela: Yeah, yeah, totally. I got the golden ticket. The legendary thing I don't know. But it's--
Julia: Yeah, that was the shiny Wooloo
Amanda: Oh, yeah.
Kamuela: It’s interesting because it's suspected this procession. The god precession was on Pō Kāne, which is the 27th night as we mentioned before. But there's also another theory that states that they could march on, Po Akua, and that's the 14th Night of the Hawaiian Lunar Calendar. Because Pō means night, and Akua, as we mentioned before is god. So it's essentially the 14th night is known as the Night of Gods or the Gods' Night.
Amanda: And you know what night you saw them?
Kamuela: No, I was a kid at the time. So...
Amanda: Ugh! I want to know!
Julia: One day, one day you'll have to like go back into the archive and be like, why were we driving that day? were we going to someone's birthday or something like that? I don't know.
Kamuela: Well, there was another time I was in Hilo and on the Big Island, and my mom and I were visiting my sister and her Hawaiian neighbors had a party that was going on down the street, and we don't mind, it's locals, we're all cool with everything. And the night got progressively louder as the hours went by. And right around one o'clock or two o'clock in the morning, we heard a conch shell blow. And--
Julia: Oh, no!
Kamuela: And when that happened, the whole party just got quiet. So...
Julia: Oh, my.
Amanda: I don't blame them.
Kamuela: So it wasn't just my sister, my mom and I. We thought we heard it, we were like, was that a conch shell? And sure enough, we didn't hear the party.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: Wow, that is wild.
Amanda: I was going to say, Are there other contexts where you will hear a conch shell blown? Is that dumb question? Or is it like, like, every time you hear it, it's sort of like, oh my god, let's listen for drums. And if there are, we got, we got to get down.
Kamuela: Well, it's common that you would hear a conch shell for like, like a Hawaiian Luau, you know, for the tourists and everything.
Amanda: Sure.
Kamuela: But we were out in the middle of nowhere, and this was one o'clock or two o'clock in the morning. And in fact, I asked my mom, I'm like, was that a conch shell? And my mom replied, "Kamu, don't be crazy. It's two o'clock in the morning, who would be outside blowing a conch shell?" And then she realized what she said and she's like, "Alright, let's go to sleep!" And she turned off the lights and fell asleep. So... But yes, the Hawaii Ghost Hunter Society knew of my background with our connection with Chief Kaʻiana. They made jokes about that. They said that if we did encounter anything, then the first rule was someone had to grab me. And then we run because they knew that I was-
Amanda: Wow.
Kamuela: I was possibly safe. And then I would stay and try to check things out and such, so...
Julia: So you are the spiritual shield in this.
Kamuela: Right, right, right. So...
Amanda: Yeah, it's like the opposite of a haunted child in an urban legends that we read where you are, you're the kid that you want.
Kamuela: Right, right, right. But it's interesting that a lot of people point out that they friends and people I know actually come to me. And they asked for advice for ghosts and such. And one of them pointed out that they know when they're going to see me because unusual things start happening. They consider me like a magnet to things and I pointed out, well, maybe they are trying to find a way to contact us or them, because they know that I'm the person to do that. And they're like, "Oh, I never thought of that." So...
Julia: Yeah.
Kamuela: There was a time when my sister when she was in Hilo, she would know that I would be going to visit her, or showing up and out of the blue, because she would see an owl flying by. Hawaii has a Hawaiian owl, and every family and individual has what is known as an Alma Kua, an animal spirit guardian. And while my family has a spirit guardian, as a kid, I always knew that mine was an owl. So my mom said that when I was, when she was carrying me before I was born, she would see owls all over the place. So...
Amanda: that is incredible. And I would love An illustration of your mom just surrounded by owls as she is going about her day.
Kamuela: Oh, yeah, she was a, we were in Hawaii Kai is a very developed area. But she would see an owl perched somewhere and flying by or something and it's like, what are they doing here? So...
Julia: I, my family always had Blue Jays that was my dad would always point out the Blue Jays be like, well, that's your grandpa. And I'd be Oh, cool.
Kamuela: Nice!
Julia: Hey, grandpa!
Kamuela: So another thing about the Makapu'u Point is that my dad had an encounter there of seeing a ghost. So my dad's friends were off-roading in Makapu'u Point, all of a sudden, they looked over to the side to the left of the driver, and they saw a Hawaiian runner running alongside the truck, keeping pace and all of a sudden the runner darted to the left into the mountain and disappeared. Now, that is common because back in the day, the Hawaiians did not have a written language. And communications were done through runners that would run through the island to relay messages. And they would use the lava tubes under brown as an expressway to get from one side of the island to the other. Now the--
Julia: Oh wow.
Amanda: What?
Kamuela: So there's all these networks from the lava tubes that are shut down and closed by the Hawaiian by the Board of Water Supply because there's a lens of freshwater that's under the island. And if anything happens to that lens of freshwater, then Hawaii has no freshwater.
Amanda: Right.
Kamuela: And so the, they the board of water supplies shut down the lava tubes but there's a whole network of them under all the islands. And one day, when we were at Dr. Grant's coffee shop, which was known as The Hunt, in Moiliili, I've encountered some people and they said that they were on the Pali Highway of Oahu and they were driving along, and they saw a runner, a Hawaiian runner running alongside their car, and then dart into the mountain and disappear. And so I think that's the same ghost run- runner, which brings us to the Pali. Now, the Pali on Oahu is a very spiritual place because the Battle of Nuʻuanu took place there, and that was the Battle of Nuʻuanu was a way for [36:56] to gain control of Oahu and after that, if he claimed a Oahu he was going to form the Hawaiian Kingdom. So because of the importance, the Battle of Nuʻuanu was Hawaii's deadliest battle to record. There might have been earlier battles, but this one was so bloody that it said the stream has ran with blood for days. And Kamehameha ended up pushing his enemies off the cliff because Pali is Hawaiian for cliff. We're not exactly sure how many people died or how many warriors died on the Battle of Nuʻuanu. But 100 years after the battle in the late 1800s. Construction workers found around 700 or so human skulls that they believe where the remains from Hawaiians from the Battle of Nuʻuanu. Now, that--
Amanda: Wow.
Kamuela: Them being pushed off the Pali that was at the end of the battle. There are people that died before then. So
Julia: just imagining the, the day where you go into work and then you find 700 human skulls, that's probably not a good day for work.
Kamuela: Yeah, it's...
Amanda: Especially the historical significance as well.
Julia: Yeah.
Kamuela: Actually quite common in Hawaii. It's whenever there's bodies everywhere, from ancient Hawaiian times. So whenever a place is dug up to be developed, they usually find remains.
Julia: I know that there's very specific laws here in New York, where you have to call in a certain department if you manage to find a human remains while you're digging up like a foundation or something for construction. So I imagine that the regulations in Hawaii are probably similar.
Kamuela: Yes, they're the you would call someone and or it would already make the news. And usually, they would say, Oh, you cannot develop here anymore. But they would end up getting a Kahuna or a- So a Kahuna was a Hawaiian priest who was skilled in the ways of ancient Hawaii and the ancient Hawaiian mystic ways. And they would usually get the remains and put them somewhere. We're at the Pali and the Pali because of all the deaths are because of the deaths at the Pali from the Battle of Nuʻuanu. It's believed there's a lot of paranormal activity there. So Dr. Grant wanted us to do a live investigation for his radio show, because Dr. Grant had a radio show for many years on Kumu-FM and I was a guest fairly frequently. And so we went there to the Pali one night, and we made the location, very secret. We did not tell where we are going because we did not want to be interrupted during our investigation. And as Dr. Grant would say, while investigating, most of the time, the most dangerous thing that you can encounter are other humans because they would interrupt the investigation. So we were there and I had Dr. Grant on my cell phone on speaker and we're waiting and just examining the area, and we heard a thump and we didn't think anything of it. We thought it was something that fell to be specific. We thought that it was it really sounded like a coconut falling down onto the ground onto a bunch of leaves. That's what it sounded like. So we were there and doing our investigation and Dr. Grant was asking us how things were. And I've said, No, there's nothing going on. And one of the Ghost Hunters said, there's a thump like something fell. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, there was that. And Dr. Grant was asked us, really, is there anything else? And they're like, no, and then it happened again. There was a thump.
Julia: Oh, no.
Kamuela: And we were like, Oh, there it is, again. And so we're, Dr. Grant was like, "What, what did it sound like?" And I'm like, well, it sounded like a coconut falling on leaves. And Dr. Grant said, “That's interesting.” Looking back on it, I don't think there were any coconuts there. There are no coconut trees at all in that area.
Amanda: Oh, man.
Kamuela: So then.
Julia: Oh boy.
Kamuela: So there was another thump. And I'm like, "Oh, there it is again. Did you hear that Dr. Grant?" And we were all like, "Oh, yeah!"
Amanda: Something is out there.
Kamuela: Wow. Did you hear that? And all of us investigators were there were like, Where's that coming from? Hearing the stumping. And Dr. Grant's like, "Wait, so let me get this straight. You guys are out there and you're hearing this thing like a dropping or a thumping?" And I'm like, "Yeah, can you hear it?" And he's like, "No, I can't hear it." I'm like, "Oh, well, let's try get closer. So maybe hear."
Julia: No!
Kamuela: And then we heard it again. I'm like, "There! There! Did you hear that?" And he's like, "No. Kamu, I want you all to, to leave, just leave, go back to the car and just leave."
Amanda: Good.
Kamuela: And I'm like, "No, no, like we can, we can, we can do this. It-it sounds close!" And he's like, "No, just go back." So we ended up going back.
Julia: That's the problem.
Kamuela: Yeah. Yeah. So we ended up going back to the cars and calling off the investigation. And Dr. Grant said, "Yeah, that was the Night Marchers." And we're like, "Oh, really?" And Dr. Grant was like, "Yeah, that, that was the Night Marchers." And like, "Oh, I do think drumming sounded like that." And that's why I mentioned earlier it can sound like a something falling from a tree.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Not necessarily drumming drum.
Kamuela: Right, right.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Oh.
Kamuela: And Dr. Grant asks, "Well, you guys encountered it." And I was like, "Yeah, we did." And he said, "Well, at least we got the recordings." And I'm like, "Yeah, we got the recordings. And I looked at everybody, and they're like, No, no, no."
Julia: Oh, no.
Kamuela: "Oh, actually, Dr. Grant..." and Dr. Grant was like, "You guys went on investigation and you didn't even record anything?" We're like, "We were so excited. We just forgot to turn things on." So...
Julia: He sounds delightful.
Kamuela: So that was it.
Amanda: We've all been there.
Kamuela: Yeah.
Julia: Absolutely.
Amanda: Not like they're specifically investigating what turns out to be the Night Marchers but definitely have forgotten to record a podcast episode.
Kamuela: Oh, yeah. We ended up doing a follow-up. Now the follow up was interesting. We went back and another night and it was a lot darker. It felt darker. Shadows seemed longer. And we went up to the area where we heard the thumping, but nothing was there. Now instead, there was this big tree that was early on in the trail that we went to. And I will say that I am a bit sensitive. I'm not psychic. I can sense when things around I have a pretty good sensory. My great grandmother was what people Or what Hawaiians considered Tutu Lady and a Tutu is Hawaiian for grandmother. So a Tutu Lady is a Hawaiian who understands the Hawaiian arts, but is not on the level of a Kahuna. So I'm sensitive, I can sense things. And we went to this tree. And all of us sensed something with this tree. I was part of the formation of the group as far as choosing, or as making sure the members were balanced. And I wanted to make sure that there were skeptics. And even the skeptics, at the end of when we stopped having the Hawaii Ghost Hunters Society when we were disbanded. At the end of the run, even the skeptics had several things that they could not explain. So this tree was there. And we were getting all kinds of readings, unusual things. I brought a video camera. And when we gathered to review the video cameras when I would press play on the camera, the camera would shut off, and the tape would reject.
Julia: Wow!
Amanda: That's not what that does!
Julia: Not what that does!
Kamuela: And we, to this day, it's like whenever I try to do that, it's a turn. I have to turn off the camera, turn it back on, put the tape in, push play. The camera shuts off and the tape rejects.
Amanda: It's amazing.
Kamuela: Like I mentioned before the Hawaii Ghost Hunters were we stopped investigating because Dr. Grant passed away. And Dr. Grant was a great source of, of Hawaiiana, or Hawaiian knowledge of areas. And we tried to continue without Dr. Grant. But a lot of our time was spent in the archives looking up what was possibly there that we could possibly encounter?
Amanda: Yeah.
Kamuela: As far as the Night Marchers, the Night Marches are still encountered on all Hawaiian Islands. It should be noted that the people that experienced the Night Marchers are not just Hawaiians, I mentioned before their Asians, pretty much every ethnicity in Hawaii has encountered the Night Marchers in that includes people of varying educational backgrounds. So it's not just one type of ethnicity, or one type of person regardless of their education. If a commoner violated a Kapu, they were sentenced to death. However, they could avoid being sentenced to death by running away and finding refuge in what was known as a City of Refuge. And every Island or every district had a City of Refuge. They're just very difficult to get to. And that's why if somebody violated a Kapu, they were quickly put to death. So they were not given the opportunity to flee to a City of Refuge. And so they were killed so they could immediately restore the mana of the Ali'i. So on the Big Island, there is the City of Refuge National Park is a nice place to visit if you're there, and there's also petroglyphs of what people believe were Night Marchers on the Big Island. If this is true, then this could mean the Night Marchers predates the Hawaiian Kingdom.
Amanda: Wow!
Julia: That's so cool. That is so interesting. Oh, Kamu!
Kamuela: And then there's other things as well of my own encounters. And well, of course, this is I was just speaking off the cuff with this last part of like, various other things that has happened to myself, my family, and all that other stuff. So...
Julia: That's wonderful. I love both the historical context and the personal context. It's you just had like the perfect Spirits episode, you crushed it.
Amanda: It sounds like you're carrying forward Dr. Grant's work in, in your own way, which is absolutely amazing. And I am a huge fan of your podcast. I know all of our conspirators will be as well.
Kamuela: Oh, thank you really appreciate that.
Amanda: Of course.
Kamuela: Yeah, the Dr. Grant's episodes, or his show would be on Sunday nights and they're a great stuff to listen to. So...
Amanda: Amazing. Well, we'll provide some links to you know, his work and if there any, you know, archived interviews that we can find, we're happy to put that in the description as well. And Kamu, would you please let everybody know where they can find your show and your other work online?
Kamuela: So yes, sure, I have a podcast the Legends from the Pacific. And I'm also a writer. I have a compilation of books out there that were based on a blog that I wrote. And I have a stack of scripts that I'm in the process of converting to books. So hopefully that'll be out shortly. As a side note, it might be difficult to find any of Dr. Grant's work. It's very poor quality. The only thing that is available for Dr. Grant would be his books, which are still available on Amazon, I believe. So.
Julia: All right, well, we'll make sure to link those as well so people can read his work firsthand.
Kamuela: Julia and Amanda, thank you very much for having me on, and mahalo.
Amanda: Well, thank you again for joining us. Folks. You can find all those links in the episode just description and remember everybody, stay creepy stay cool.
[Credits]
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Transcriptionist and Editor:
Krizia Casil