Episode 190: The Ghostbusters Case
/What if your house was legally haunted? The Ackleys of Nyack, New York had to deal with just that. We look into the legal precedent of paranormal activity, real estate hauntings, and ask the question: At what point is it worth it to own a haunted house?
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of legal disputes, racism, The Confederate Flag, slavery, violence against indigenous people, death, capitalism, real estate, and haunting.
Housekeeping
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I’m Amanda…
Julia: And I’m Julia…
Amanda: And this is Episode 190: The Ghostbusters Case, which is primarily about the case and only a little bit about Ghostbusters.
Julia: Only a little tiny bit about Ghostbusters. Only a brief few mentions of Ghostbusters. But I was really excited about this episode. I don’t get to cover a lot of non-mythology stuff a lot on this show, but I thought this--one, was creepy and cool and two, was a different perspective than we usually have.
Amanda: If you enjoyed our Mothman episode, for example, and all of the first person accounts that Julia was able to draw from, I think you’ll enjoy this one as well.
Julia: The Mothman one, just so sexy, though. So sexy.
Amanda: So sexy! Mm! Well, our new Patrons, I think, are some wonderful people who I would definitely make overly sexy statues of. Welcome and thank you to MasqueintheRain, Bryn, Elaine, and fellow Amanda. You join the ranks of our wonderful Patrons whose support literally makes it possible for this to be our jobs, including our Supporting Producer level Patrons: Alicia, Debra, Hannah, Jen, Jessica, Keegan, Landon, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Molly, Mr. Folk, Neal, Niki, Phil Fresh, Polly, Sarah and Skyla.
Julia: They’re all in alphabetical order now. Do you like that?
Amanda: Aw! How pleasant! Thank you!
Julia: You’re welcome.
Amanda: All those M’s in a row. You join, as well, our newly alphabetical Legend level Patrons: Audra, Avonlea, Chelsea, Clara, Donald, Drew, Eden, Frances, Jack Marie, Josie, Lada, Mark, Morgan, Necrofancy, Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. Alphabetized by the “Scotty” and not the “Bea” which I think is wonderful.
Julia: It is! Thank you. I appreciate you liking that. Amanda, what else are you appreciating lately? What are you reading? What are you listening to?
Amanda: Absolutely every day I am reading the Anti-Racism Daily Newsletter by Nicole Cardoza, who is the editor-in-chief, and she makes a absolutely wonderful daily email to keep your anti-racism practice not just a thing that you do performatively or on social media, but a thing that you can actually advocate for every single day. So every issue includes a urgent and tactical action you can take to practice anti-racism each day. Sometimes it’s signing a petition or making a call, finding out more about a topic, bringing up something--there’s discussion questions to talk about articles and issues with family and friends--and insights on the systemic and interpersonal practices that uphold white supremacy and other systems of oppression. So, it is clear, it is tangible, and it supports an anti-racism practice that lasts a lifetime not just a few weeks or months. So you can sign up for the newsletter, which is free, at antiracismdaily.com where there’s also a way to make a one time donation to support the newsletter on Patreon, which I do, and to even sign up for a corporate plan. So if your workplace or if you have a business and you would like to make this something that all your employees are working on, as you should, you can get a corporate plan there.
Julia: That sounds like a great idea and I’m sure there’s a lot of listeners who maybe could suggest that to their own businesses.
Amanda: I think it’s a wonderful idea and I’ve genuinely been learning so much. I save every one, I read every one, and it’s a great way to make sure that when you post something or tweet something in support you are pairing that with an action, which I really appreciate.
Julia: Heck yeah.
Amanda: We are also really excited and proud to be donating a quarter of all sales of our Multitude Liveshow, which is happening online next week, to Black Lives Matter Global Network. So if you would like to attend this global variety podcast live happy hour extravaganza you can go to multitude.productions/digitallive and you can either watch live with us on July 30th at 8 PM or if you buy a ticket you will also get a link to watch the video-on-demand. So after the show you can stream the replay any time. So for both the replay link and the live link go to multitude.productions/digitallive to grab your ticket.
Julia: Yeah, we’re doing a very fun Spirits-flavored game that I think a lot of people are going to find really interesting and it’s a lot of creative world building kind of thing.
Amanda: It’s extremely exciting for us. There'll be live Meddling Adults, there will be a presentation on Tony Hawk’s Underground, plus there will be a draft of Pokemon. It’s going to be a wonderful time. Well, Julia, I think you did a great job on this episode, I really loved doing it with you, and I think all of our audience are going to enjoy it as well. So, without further ado, Spirits Podcast Episode 190: The Ghostbusters Case.
[Theme music]
Julia: Nyack, New York--which is about--
Amanda: Aw, fuck yeah!
Julia: --a mile from the heart of New York City--
Amanda: Fuck yeah! Upstate New York! Aw! Yeah!
Julia: --is a relatively small village. If you’ve ever driven up the Palisades on your way to upstate New York, you’ve probably passed it.
Amanda: Fuck yeah, man! Palisades, Taconic, get at me! I love upstate New York.
Julia: It’s just right alongside the Hudson River and in Nyack there is a beautiful, large Victorian home. It’s bright pink in many of the pictures, and it’s on the very end of a dead end that overlooks the Hudson River.
Amanda: Dead end in more ways than one I bet.
Julia: Ho, ho. 1 Laveta Place was built in the late 1800s and it seems like the perfect house for Helen and George Ackley when they moved into the then-vacant home in the 1960s. However, what everyone in the village of Nyack knew but the Ackley’s didn’t when they bought the home was, they wouldn’t have been the only residents because everyone in Nyack knew that 1 Laveta Place was absolutely, positively, haunted.
Amanda: Oh my. What year is this?
Julia: 1960s.
Amanda: I mean, what kind of old timey ghosts do they have in the 60s? ‘Cause 1860s ghosts are still pretty fresh at that time, comparatively.
Julia: That’s fair, and it was built in the 1890s, this house, so it didn’t even have those Civil War ghosts. Supposedly.
Amanda: They were too fresh.
Julia: Too fresh. So, during their more than 20 years living in the house, the Ackley’s reported various hauntings. There’s an actual quote from George Ackley, who said, “One of the ghosts would wake my wife up every morning for school by shaking her bed. When spring break came, my wife made a loud announcement before going to sleep that it was spring break, there was no school, and she wanted to sleep in. Her bed did NOT shake the next morning.”
Amanda: Okay!
Julia: “While painting the living room, Helen saw one of the ghosts looking in approval of the colors. She always got the feeling that the ghost liked the renovation they had done on the house.” For the record, I’ve found other sources saying that it was his daughter, Cynthia, rather than his wife, who had the whole bed shaking incident, but either way, spooky!
Amanda: Listen, I’m not sensing a problem, really. This is kind of a Casper the Friendly Ghost type vibe I’m getting so far.
Julia: In other stories, people claimed that Helen had reported seeing two women in hoop dresses and a little man in a Revolutionary War-era red coat--
Amanda: There you go.
Julia: --that would occasionally be seen in the house.
Amanda: There you go.
Julia: Revolutionary war.
Amanda: That was their Civil War ghost. It was a Revolutionary War ghost.
Julia: It’s upstate New York, I imagine not a lot of Civil War ghosts up there.
Amanda: From driving through upstate New York the other day--some Confederate flags, though.
Julia: Ooh. Not great. Not great, upstate New York. So, the Ackley’s, obviously, were pretty open about their house’s haunting. It was mentioned several times in the local newspaper, you know, because local newspapers don’t have a lot to report a lot of times, and it even had a feature in the May 1977 Reader’s Digest.
Amanda: Damn, that’s really how you know you made it in the 70s.
Julia: Mhmm. For sure. Helen claimed in a few stories as well that the ghost would leave gifts for the family. One example was baby rings that would disappear as mysteriously as they would appear, and most notably--or perhaps most incriminating--the house became part of the city’s ghost walking tour, which really sealed it as a notorious part of the town’s haunted history.
Amanda: Now, I thought when you said gifts that we were going to have a kind of cat situation where the gift is dead rodents or something--
Julia: No, no.
Amanda: --but it sounds like they’re just teething rings that your kid lost down the cellar stairs or something.
Julia: It’s possible. Cellar stairs are also notably haunted.
Amanda: Notably haunted and your baby shouldn’t be near there. As I was saying that I was like, “Wait, wait, wait.”
Julia: Put a baby gate up! Come on!
Amanda: They did have even rudimentary baby safety in the 70s.
Julia: Mhmm. A little side note on the haunted history of Nyack, former research chemist and Ghost Investigator--capital G, capital I--Linda Zimmerman believes it is one of the most haunted villages in New York State. According to Zimmerman, the spiritual upheaval was due to the forceful and violent displacement of the indigenous Native Americans by Dutch and British colonists, as well as military campaigns throughout early colonial American history and of course violence against enslaved people in the area.
Amanda: There’s just a real menu of options.
Julia: For sure. To quote Zimmerman “A spirit is trapped due to some tragedy or an unresolved issue that is preventing them from letting go or moving on.” Which is a pretty typical definition of what a haunting is, and apparently Nyack was ripe with it.
Amanda: Fair enough, man.
Julia: But it was clear that the haunting wasn’t all that bothersome to the Ackley’s seeing as they stayed there for over two decades. When they decided to sell their home in 1990, it took awhile for the house to find a buyer--maybe because most of the locals knew the house’s haunted past. But eventually, a buyer was interested and put a deposit down. Jeffrey and Patrice Stambovsky, from New York City, put $32,500 in escrow and it was only then that the Ackley’s instructed their realtor to inform the Stambovskies that the house was haunted.
Amanda: See, this is why New York City people should not just buy homes in the country willy nilly. You’ve got to get to know the community, you’ve got to visit, you’ve got to pay your dues. All that kind of stuff.
Julia: Well, Amanda, according to the realtor, whose BLOG I FOUND--shout out to you, Richard Ellis--the buyers still seemed interested and as he claims, “They still wanted to proceed and jokingly said they would ‘call the ghostbusters in’--referring to the popular movie of the time.”
Amanda: Sure, sure.
Julia: You know, but two weeks after the contracts were signed, the buyers claimed to have a change of heart and wanted to back out of the sale. According to some, the Stambovskie’s weren’t convinced of the haunting, but upon finding out that the house was in fact a part of the town's haunted walking tour, were kind of convinced that this was something worth taking seriously.
Amanda: I mean, I’m sure that your house being on a walking tour is also a relevant fact for buying a house.
Julia: So, according to the ruling--we’ll get to that in a second--”the Plaintiff, to his horror, discovered that the house he had recently contracted to purchase was widely reputed to be possessed by poltergeists.”
Amanda: So a lawsuit occurred?
Julia: Yes. The Ackleys refused to refund the deposit on the house, and of course the Stambovskies sued. The resulting case--Stambovksy vs Ackley--would be known as the “Ghostbusters” ruling.
Amanda: Oooh. I was wondering what this episode title was all about
Julia: So, we’ll get into the details of that actual ruling, because I think it’s really, really interesting, but first let’s get an early refill because this episode is going to be interesting.
Amanda: I’m going to need it.
[Theme music]
Amanda: Julia, I know lots of us are dealing with stress, and more stress than we maybe have before and I know that for me one of the real highlights in the last few months has been working on stuff like this with my therapist and talking about managing stress and managing disappointment and just working on realizing that every little setback is not fatal and that no feeling is final, as I like to say. And I connect with my therapist through BetterHelp which is a online secure counseling service. It’s not a crisis line and it’s also not self-help. It is something where you can start communicating with professional counselors in under 48 hours. They have a broad range of expertise available, which might not be locally available, and they’re even more affordable than traditional offline counseling. They are even having to recruit new counselors in all 50 states because so many folks have been taking charge of their own mental health--over a million, in fact--using BetterHelp. There is financial aid available which is amazing and, to me, best of all, if you, for whatever reason, want to change counsellors, BetterHelp makes that really easy and free, and it is absolutely something that you cannot do in traditional counseling. That is really, really useful. You can even read testimonials if you want to to see what other folks have had in their experiences at betterhelp.com/reviews, but if you are willing to take charge of your mental health and start doing so with BetterHelp today, go to betterhelp.com/spirits for 10% off your first month. That’s betterH-E-LP.com/spirits.
Julia: Yup. That is 10% off your first month at betterhelp--H-E-L-P.com/spirits. Amanda, you recently made a trip up to upstate New York and also Vermont.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: And I was just thinking, I love Vermont a whole lot because it’s just a very down-to-earth place, it feels very renewing and fresh and earthy in a lot of ways.
Amanda: It does. There’s a little waft of cow you get when you walk off the ferry from New York State and as you proceed on, you’re just like, “Ah, the Vermont Patina.”
Julia: So, when I was looking to get myself a new CBD provider, I looked no further than SunSoil, which is a Vermont, down-to-earth company who are doing things a little bit differently. SunSoil makes CBD oil that is USDA certified organic. They grow hemp on their farms in Vermont and they never use pesticides, herbicides, or GMOs. They keep it super simple. In fact, most of their CBD products have just two simple ingredients which is coconut oil and hemp, and it’s surprisingly affordable. Because they farm their own hemp and they stick to simple ingredients, they’re able to offer high quality CBD for half the price of other brands. I really like the cinnamon flavored CBD drops. I put a little bit in some tea before I go to bed and it helps me get through the night.
Amanda: Yeah! I’ve also been enjoying their coconut oil CBD, which you can use like any other coconut oil--in cooking even--but I put it on my back when I’m having muscle spasms and it’s a really helpful way--they have a spoon so you know exactly what the dose is that you’re going to be taking and it’s just good stuff. Knowing that something I’m putting in my body is high quality is really important to me.
Julia: Yeah, and I just really appreciate how they’re super transparent with their ingredients. They have just these really simple products and they are trying their best to kind of create a business that has a clean and sustainable environment. SunSoil makes pure and simple CBD products at unbeatable prices. You can get 30% off your first order by going to sunsoil.com/spirits, again, that’s S-U-N-S-O-I-L.com/spirits for 30% off your first order.
Amanda: sunsoil.com/spirits. And finally, Julia, we are sponsored this week by Miro. This is a virtual whiteboard that lets teams that are distributed or remote-working or telecommuting to use more than just a small piece of paper on a conference table in between you to brainstorm! And when we are doing things remotely with all of the Multitude hosts it is really helpful to have a central space where we can take notes, throw up images, and do a little brainstorming, like when we were planning the content for the upcoming live show, and Miro is a wonderful way to do that. They have an infinite canvas, which is perfect for brainstorming, making mock ups, organizing files, and even managing complex projects. I know, for me, looking at a blank space can sometimes be a little. It intimidating, so it is really helpful that they also have templates to help you get started quickly So whether you are making a podcast, planning an RPG campaign, working, or just talking to collaborators and asking somebody for input on a project that you’re working on yourself, Miro is a great way to do that, and, to me, best of all they even integrate with programs you already use, like Google Drive, Dropbox, Jira, Slack, and more.
Julia: Yeah, over five million users worldwide trust them to help their teams more efficiently, I know we do, and it’s everything you need to start working better. And you can start collaborating for free when you sign up for an account at miro.com/spirits. That's M-I-R-O.com/spirits to sign up for a free account with unlimited team members. M-I-R-O.com/spirits.
Amanda: And now, let’s get back to the show.
Julia: So, for this episode, Amanda, I’ve made us a cocktail called a Skeleton Key. It is a Saint Germaine based cocktail with ginger beer and a bourbon floater. Because, as you know, if you’re going to buy a creepy haunted house, you’re going to need some liquid courage and of course a mysterious skeleton key to open the door where you swear you saw feet underneath the door frame.
Amanda: Incredible. I love this and I was able to make it here in my own home because when we were upstate visiting my grandparents--there is a liquor cabinet right when you walk in that is shadowed and dusty and has liquor in there literally from the 70s. So I got a sealed bottle of Saint Germaine that probably dates from the aughts. I don’t think it’s super old, I googled “Do spirits go bad” and got a lot of results about poltergeists. So far everything is fine and I think having some brandy and Saint Germaine from the maybe 90s is okay?
Julia: Yeah, it’s probably fine. I wouldn’t worry about it.
Amanda: Listen. Worst it’s going to do is get me drunk.
Julia: On the plus side there’s also plenty of knock-off elderflower liqueur brands, so if Saint Germaine is a little too pricey for you, you can get one for like half the price.
Amanda: There’s also a lot of elderflower seltzers and stuff now, so it’s a good way to introduce that flavor if you don’t want to commit to a full bottle of spirits.
Julia: There you go. So, Amanda, the Ghostbusters Case first went to the New York Supreme Court--which is confusing because it’s actually the lower court of New York. Lawyer stuff is weird. Laws are weird. Justice system? Weird. And the New York Supreme Court ruled in Ackley's favor first, citing caveat emptor or “buyer beware”, which typically refers to termites or a leaky basement or a roof that needs repairing, not ghosts.
Amanda: Right. Yeah, stuff you might not see immediately in the inspection or whatever and then be like, “Well, you bought it so now you’ve got to deal with it.
Julia: The court argued that the Stambovskys had signed a contract with an “as-is” clause and Stambovsky, obviously, was not pleased with the court's decision, so he, of course, appealed to the Appellate Division and they eventually sided with him. Here’s a quote from their decision:
“While I agree with the Supreme Court that the real estate broker, as agent oh the seller, is under no duty to disclose to a potential buyer the phantasmal reputation of the premises and that, in his pursuit of a legal remedy for fraudulent misrepresentation against the seller, the plaintiff hasn’t have a ghost of a chance, I am nevertheless moved by the spirit of equity to allow the buyer to seek rescission of the contract of sale and recovery of his down payment.”
Amanda: Dang. I really appreciate this judge--or their clerk--just really having a grand old time with this decision.
Julia: So, to continue with more of what was said, this is one of the few decisions that if you have any remote interest in lawyers or the law, or the justice system--
Amanda: Or Christine Beransky. Re: The Good Wife/Fight.
Julia: Yeah, I know very little about law, but I was able to read this and it’s very, very funny. It is ripe with content. Here’s more quotes: “From the perspective of a person in the position of plaintiff herein, a very practical problem arises with respect to the discovery of a paranormal phenomenon: ‘Who you gonna call?’ as the title song from the movie Ghostbusters asks. Applying the strict rule of caveat emptor to a contract involving a house possessed by poltergeists conjures up visions of a psychic or medium routinely accompanying the structural engineer and the Terminix man on an inspection of every home subject to a contract of sale.”
Amanda: Julia, it’s your marriage!
Julia: I’ll get to that. “It portends that the prudent attorney will establish an escrow account lest the subject of the transaction come back to haunt him and his client--or pray that his malpractice insurance coverage extends to supernatural disasters.”
Amanda: Oh wow.
Julia: It’s so much. It’s so much, and, Amanda, HOLD ON, because we should talk about this. Because apparently this is a fucking thing.
Amanda: Really?
Julia: Starting in 2011, there was a show called Paranormal Home Inspectors. It’s set in Canada but still--it is a thing that you can watch! I’m pretty sure it’s on Netflix or Amazon. In fact, Amanda, the real estate platform, Bungalo, has--as of October 2019--added a tool that allows you to check the Paranormal Inspection Reports of a house that you’re considering buying.
Amanda: Truly incredible. What a world.
Julia: This is specifically for houses in Charlotte, Dallas, and Tampa, though I imagine it will probably extend to more in the future. The way it works--
Amanda: haunted cities. Swampy. Filled with people unmasked right now. Creepy.
Julia: Creepy. Very creepy. So, the way it works is--and this is a quote from business magazine Fast Company--“Before Bungalo homes are put on the market, the paranormal investigators will tour the home, checking for anything strange or of spiritual significance, like unusual electric fields (orbs!) and unexplained movements (did you hear that?) or other things that go bump in the night. After spending time trying to commune with the spiritual realm, each investigator--including Becky Vickers of BECKS Ghost Hunters--will put together a ‘Paranormal Inspection Report’ letting homeowners in this world and the next rest in peace.”
Amanda: I am so torn between respecting the hustle and being like, “Guys. Guys. Guys.”
Julia: Someone had to write this up as a business project. As a plan for their business, and then hire people to do this. And then pay those people to do this!
Amanda: Yeah! And who would want to invite those folks into a home that you’re trying to sell? Because--at best--nothing will change and at worst you’re home will be “ghost listed” as potentially haunted!
Julia: I think--well, they’re doing it for all their homes. So I guess that’s good? If you’re selling a home through Bungalo they are going to paranormally investigate your house. And I think the 1991 New York State court system didn’t expect it when they wrote their decision, but it is definitely a thing that people who are particularly superstitious or believe in the paranormal want in their home buying experience. Luckily for me, I have Jake so if we ever look to buy a potential haunted house, he can check for building code violations and also ghosts. So, I’m lucky in that front.
Amanda: That’s true, that’s true, and from a buyer’s perspective, I guess I understand how more information is useful, and if you’re looking at lots of homes and one of them is like, “It might be haunted!” I would also go in a different direction.
Julia: Yeah. Maybe, maybe. I think it depends, really. You’ll see why it depends in a little bit, but the point of the case, Amanda, the argument they end up making, is that the house was haunted “as a matter of law”. Meaning that the Ackleys weren’t allowed to claim that the ghosts weren’t real, because they had spent most of their time living in the house claiming that it was haunted and the ghosts were real. You can’t get an article quoting you saying the house is haunted in Readers Digest, and you can’t back down from that, you know what I mean?
Amanda: Fascinating. Yeah. It’s like perjury.
Julia: Yeah, and it set the precedent in New York State as well that sellers must inform the purchasers of haunting. Supposedly, Helen Ackley was not super happy with the decision, since they didn’t come in her favor, and was quoted that she was moving to Florida and “taking the ghosts with her.”
Amanda: Oh, Helen.
Julia: So shout out to. Bungalo, and fun fact, Amanda; after the case and the coverage it received, the realtor reported that up to 50 potential buyers called within a week of the court’s decision.
Amanda: Damn, guys! What do you want? Why?
Julia: They were all wanting to own the very haunted house! The public ally haunted house! And it’s really interesting, too, because this case is often cited in US law classes and in textbooks about contracts and property law.
Amanda: I mean, it’s fascinating how could you not. And I think it’s even more significant because for my limited understanding of law, the sort of burden of proof to overturn a previous court’s decision is so high and the assumption is that the previous court got it right unless someone can really, really prove that they didn’t. So the fact that it was overturned is—I don’t know. It’s significant.
Julia: Well, interestingly, the decision was 3-2. So it was pretty close. You had a swing vote there. Someone decided “Yes. Ghosts.” So, Amanda, did you know that there’s only four states that deal with paranormal activity in their real estate disclosure laws?
Amanda: No, I did not. I would have guessed none.
Julia: Do you want to take a guess as to which ones?
Amanda: So, New York is one?
Julia: New York is one.
Amanda: North Carolina, Hawaii, Arizona, Washington.
Julia: Okay. You got none of them right.
Amanda: Damn.
Julia: It’s New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Minnesota.
Amanda: What?! What’s happening here in New England and the Mid-Atlantic? Why guys?
Julia: Okay, so here’s the specifics of that. In New Jersey—
Amanda: I thought New Jersey would have been like, “Fuckin’ whatever, y’all.”
Julia: So, in New Jersey disclosure of hauntings is required, but only if asked specifically by the buyer.
Amanda: Okay, fair enough. You can’t lie.
Julia: Meanwhile in Massachusetts and Minnesota, the states list paranormal and supernatural activity as “psychologically affected” attributes that do not need to be disclosed, so they’re taking a strong, contradictory stance to New York and New Jersey.
Amanda: Okay. For Massachusetts I get it. I see it.
Julia: And for the record, death on the property is a whole different matter. So ghosts are one thing, death on the property--completely different. Nine states have laws regarding that. California has the disclosure of any death on the property within three years, Alaska has death within one year, South Dakota has to disclose any homicide on the property for the entire history of the house, and meanwhile, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and South Carolina all have to disclose any death on the property, but again, only if asked.
Amanda: Okay. I mean, that makes sense, too, and I guess they’re related in that it’s a sense of creepiness or a worry about pattern, right, that is making this relevant to the buyer when in point of fact it shouldn’t matter to me if somebody died in my apartment before I lived there, but it’s still something that my hindbrain wants to know.
Julia: Yes, so if you ever buy a house in any of those states, make sure you actually ask about it, and also, hey, GOOGLE YOUR ADDRESS BEFORE YOU BUY YOUR HOUSE, YOU NEVER KNOW IF ITS A HAUNTED MURDER HOUSE OR NOT.
Amanda: Oh, yeah.
Julia: Jake and I have been watching American Horror Story for the first time and we started with Murder House because it’s the first season and the amount of real estate law that they go into because--like I said--California only has to disclose death on the property within three years, and this one has a history of murder going back to the 1920s and they’re like, “Why didn’t you tell us?” and they’re like, “We only have to disclose the last three years! Bye!”
Amanda: Fun. I feel like Ryan Murphy definitely had first person experience with that in some way.
Julia: Oh, 100%! Amanda, do you want to hear something fun?
Amanda: Of course.
Julia: As of this recording, the house is still for sale after nearly a year on the market. It is 5 bedrooms, 5 bathrooms, for a chunky 1.9 million dollars.
Amanda: That’s a lot of money.
Julia: Hold on.
Amanda: Guys.
Julia: I’m sending you the listing so you can look at it. Okay, Amanda, I have sent you the listing for the house on Zillow. As you can see, there’s a little pool in the backyard overlooking the Hudson River, there’s even a bedroom that’s been converted to a studio so in case we ever want to take the leap and make a Multitude House instead of just a studio we can absolutely do that for a nice 1.9 million dollars, and also it’s haunted. I’m going to read the description for our listeners while you look at the photos, okay?
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: Hudson Riverfront Queen Anne circa 1890; location for one of the Edward Hoppers paintings.
Amanda: Oh.
Julia: I know right. This perfectly restored classic is located in one of Nyack's prettiest tree lined dead end streets. Previously home to the award winning film director Adam Brooks, indie singer/songwriter Ingrid Michaelson, and now the home of the--
Amanda: What?
Julia: Yeah. And now the home of the singer/rapper Matisyahu, the beautiful space and soft river light form a perfect sanctuary to nurture the creative spirit. River views from almost every room foster an unparalleled connection to the river in this spacious yet intimate home. Fully renovated home complements the style and was crafted by a top builder. The spa-like master bath features a hand crafted copper soaking tub. An in-ground salt water spa pool overlooks the river. The 2 car garage was recently built and has space for a workshop. Period details include arched doorways, stained glass, exposed brick, original mantles, inlaid hardwood floors and a wide wrap around porch. Riparian rights. Walk to Village of Nyack.
Amanda: Or run!
Julia: So, yeah, no mention of the ghosts. I’m sure they’ll save it for the contract negotiations, because they certainly wouldn’t want a repeat of the Ghostbusters case.
Amanda: I also want to tell you that there is a dock wading on to the river.
Julia: There is.
Amanda: Which seems like just an opportunity for some kind of marine haunting, and secondly, it’s next door to Tall Man Place.
Julia: Ooh. Spooky.
Amanda: I’m sure it’s pronounced “tall-min,” but don’t like that.
Julia: Nope. Don’t like it. Makes me think of Slenderman.
Amanda: Yup. Me too.
Julia: So, Amanda, what do you think of the house? You think it’s good? Think we could move in now?
Amanda: Listen. It’s very beautiful! It’s very Nancy Meyers vibes. The pool is amazing, lots of blue tile and accents, but there are, frankly, far too many windows for a house where I will be thinking of hauntings every day.
Julia: That is absolutely fair. I guess I want to kind of end this episode with your thoughts on purchasing a haunted house.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Would you? I’m going to preface this, too, with--I think two days ago I sent Amanda a listing for a house that is actually quite close to the fictional Lake Town City that we have in Join the Party and it was a beautiful mansion for like $50,000. And you were like, “Oh my god, it’s beautiful! It’s great!” and then you paused, and then the next message you sent me is “Why does the listing say no one can go inside?”
Amanda: Yeah. The listing said, twice, “No one is allowed inside. Must buy as-if.”
Julia: You’re like, “Oh. Oh. Haunted. 100% haunted.”
Amanda: Extremely haunted, and the photos were also date-stamped at the bottom right like this was a 90s Canon film camera, which just strikes me as haunted. They just strike me as crime scene photos every time I see a date stamp on a photo.
Julia: Yup, yup. It has been on the market for a while, the pictures that are featured in the listing were taken in January of this year, and there’s still tinsel around certain doorways and stuff. It’s very creepy.
Amanda: I just...I don’t want to invite trouble, I think, and that’s why I am a little bit sympathetic to people who would want to check it in a haunted listing or haunted filter, because it just feels like there are so many things that could go wrong with the house that I don’t need to get my thrills that way, and part of me is sort of like, “Is your life that easy that you want to live in a haunted house? Do you need some excitement?” but at the same time, it sounds like the Ackleys had a lovely time with this haunting and had a walking tour and got to know people and had a little notoriety and probably framed their Reader’s Digest photo at some point, and that seems just charming and fine.
Julia: This is a conversation that Jake and I have had a lot.
Amanda: I bet.
Julia: Not surprising anyone. Not surprising anyone. Mostly because every time I find a picture of an old-probably-haunted house and I show it to him and be like, “Hey, for $75,000 we could move to upstate New York and have this beautiful mansion or this place in Pennsylvania that is equidistant between Pittsburgh and Philidalpheia!” and no one would ever go there and we could just live the life!
Amanda: There are good flea markets out there though.
Julia: There are. There are. They’ve got the beautiful Amish country as well, it’s not a bad area. I’m not saying that. It’s just that I wouldn’t be close to anything. But every time I show him pictures he just looks at it he’s like, “It’s probably haunted though.” I’m always like, “Would that be the worst thing in the world? I mean, if the Ackleys could have this great relationship with their ghost, would it be so terrible for us to have a good relationship with our ghost?” And he’s like, “You don’t want that. I’m telling you right now. You don’t want that. Also it doesn’t look move-in ready. It’s going to require so many renovations.” I’m just like, “But just picture it.” I am the typical white woman at the beginning of a haunted house movie. I’m just like, “It’s got so much character! Look at those chandeliers! There’s beautiful fireplaces in every room! Look at the exposed brick!” And then my husband is like, “Nope. We’re going to die in here. The ghosts are going to kill us.”
Amanda: Yeah, and then you move in anyway because he wants to make you happy. He goes to work and he’s like, “Set the alarm!” And you’re like, “Yes, honey!” scrolling on Instagram and then, you know, the events of the movie take place.
Julia: Yup. Yup. My husband becomes a traveling salesman and leaves me alone in the haunted house for two weeks and then he comes back and I’m dead. You know. The usual.
Amanda: I know, but at the time my “I will never own a house” millennial capitalist brain is like, “Well maybe other people aren’t buying it because it is haunted and I can just tough it out and put mind over matter and get a house! That would be nice!”
Julia: Exactly! What if you stumbled across a house that was under $100,000 and still had Tiffany stained glass windows and who cares if there’re ghosts in there! That’s beautiful! I want it.
Amanda: I feel like I could not say no.
Julia: Exactly! Right? That’s what I’m saying!
Amanda: I know. I’m with you.
Julia: I feel like—so, I like the Ghostbusters case because...it’s not really saying “ghosts are real” more like, “Hey if you tell something about your property and you keep saying it you can’t walk that back just because you want to sell it.” Which is good for real estate law, but I do like the idea that the law says “Hey, you said ghosts are real so, legally, this house is haunted.” It’s very cool.
Amanda: That’s extremely good, and I think there is also a kind of bigger sense of...like a longing for permanence, or a longing for a relationship with the place around you for lots of us who have always only rented a home or moved around a lot or like me, you know, my parents got divorced and sold the house I grew up in and there is not a place for me to return to, so the sense that you could have a relationship with your home and your home could have a relationship with you is something I think that is charming and desirable to a certain extent in the way that my apartment has the creaky floorboard or the cabinet door that’s a little bit wonky and it’s sort of like, “Oh that’s mine, it’s charming. I’ve been here long enough that I have a relationship with the place and I know it’s foibles.” And a haunting is, yes, chaotic, but it’s also an accentuation of that.
Julia: It’s part of the charm.
Amanda: It’s part of the charm! And if you don’t have the resources or the hope of buying a house one day, the idea that you live somewhere long enough that it forms a relationship with and an opinion about you. I don’t know. There’s something alluring about it.
Julia: Yeah, and that was part of the Ackeleys’ experience. Mrs. Ackley talks about how they repainted the color of the walls and she saw a ghost who nodded approvingly at their color choice. That’s awesome.
Amanda: Yeah. That’s something of the past is endorsing you or accepts you.
Julia: Yeah. And my parents are currently going through the process of selling their house which is a whirlwind experience. They put it on the market and it sold within three days which is wild. I really do like the idea of living in a world where my husband is a building inspector and also a paranormal inspector. Like he comes into the house and goes, “Well, you know, everything looks okay. The man in the chains that appears at midnight every night—I don’t think he’ll be too much of a problem as long as you just give him his space and yeah! Definitely check to see when the next time is you need to replace those roof tiles!”
Amanda: Yeah, and if you get a sense of chills, either there is a mild haunting or you gotta fix your electrical currents. Either way, J’s got your back!
Julia: I just like the idea of a department of paranormal buildings in every state that you have to pass an inspector's test for. I love that! That’s adorable.
Amanda: Oh yeah. There’s forms, there’s certifications, there’s hold music on the phone, just a lot of ripe opportunities here.
Julia: Yeah, and the hold music of that line is always just an instrumental version of the Ghostbusters theme.
[Laughter]
Amanda: Yes. That would be very good.
Julia: I like it. I like it a lot. But yeah! So, I think that the Ghostbusters case is super fascinating. I think the haunting of 1 Laveta Place in Nyack is not super interesting, but the precedent of it is super interesting and I think that next time I start looking at houses I’m going to double check to make sure they are not haunted or murder houses.
Amanda: Absolutely, and conspirators, if you have bought or sold a house that had some kind of dealing with a murder or a ghost, we would love to hear about it. Write us at spiritspodcast.com and just put “Murder Real Estate” or “Ghost Real Estate” in your subject line.
Julia: I like that a lot. Yes, that would be excellent. I want to read all of those. Maybe we’ll do a grab bag episode of just everyone’s ghost real estate law experiences.
Amanda: Yeah, we do have a little bit of a tasting ghosts round up coming up on an urban legends episode, so, listen. You guys deliver. We did a whole thing about haunted Italian food—haunted spaghetti—this is our new spaghost.
Julia: It’s our new flavor. Got to change it up every year or so.
Amanda: I was very tempted—on mic—to call the real estate agent for this house and ask about the current presentation of it’s haunting, but that just seems unfair to Becky.
Julia: Amanda, do it. Amanda, do it on mic!
Recorded voice on phone: You will now be connected this premier agent on a call recorded for quality purposes.
[Phone ringing]
Amanda: Me too, bitches. All right,folks, I talked to the real estate agent, she was very sweet and did not want to be recorded but said that there had been three owners since the original people and no one had reported anything. Don’t know if that’s true, but she said that the house had been loved. Which is clear.
Julia: Yes. It’s beautiful.
Amanda: The original owners loved the house, people have loved it since, and if you have two million dollars to drop, go for it.
Julia: She was also very suspicious about why you were calling, which is great.
Amanda: Oh, yeah, she asked if I was writing a story or if I was trying to buy a house, and I was like, “I am not writing a story.”
Julia: Technically not writing a story.
Amanda: No, but that was a fun little first person exercise.
Julia: Yeah. Thank you for calling, because I would have had no nerve to do it whatsoever.
Amanda: No, it was nice. It was nice to hear someone say “This call will be recorded,” and I’m like, “Me too. Me too.”
Julia: Well, Amanda, I think that is all we can do for 1 Laveta place today, but I just want to remind our listeners that you can buy a haunted house at any time if that’s your flavor!
Amanda: Just remember…
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.