Episode 168: Grimms’ Fairy Tales and ‘Gretel & Hansel’ (Myth Movie Night)
/You would think that the horror movie version of a Grimm Fairy Tale would be the scariest version, but you would be wrong. We examine the original story of Hansel & Gretel, talk about the moral quandaries of famine, and dive into the origins of Amanda’s favorite Grimm adaptation: Into the Woods.
This week, Amanda recommends Something That May Shock and Discredit You by Daniel M. Lavery. Buy a copy and see our new lists of previous recommendations, guest books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books!
Grab tickets to our Austin TX live show at multitude.productions/live and check out Next Stop in your podcast player or nextstopshow.com!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about cannibalism, child death/endangerment/abandonment, 9/11, anti-Semitism, starvation, famine, death by fire, fat-shaming, imprisonment, and death.
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Transcript
Amanda:
Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia:
And I'm Julia,
Amanda:
And this is Episode 168: Myth Movie Night - Gretel and Hansel.
Julia:
It's not often we do a movie that's in theaters currently, but I thought that I saw it, and I was just like, "This seems like the right choice to make."
Amanda:
And it gives us an opportunity to talk about things like the history of fairytales and ways that we adapt them now.
Julia:
Yeah, absolutely. You know who I enjoy sharing new things with, Amanda?
Amanda:
Is it our new patrons, Mark, Andre, Agneshka, Lux, Meredith, and Juliette?
Julia:
It is, as well as our supporting producer-level patrons, Phillip, Tyree, Megan, Deborah, Molly, Skyless, Samantha, Sammy, Neil, Jessica, and Phil Fresh.
Amanda:
They sustain our show and make it possible every dang week just like our legend-level patrons, Brittany, Josie, Kylie, Morgan, Kyle of the Husky, Beam Me Up Scotty, Audra, Chris, Mark, Mr. Folk, Sarah, and Jack Murray.
Amanda:
And, Julia, this week we are enjoying a variety pack of German beer, which is quite thematic from a local Belgium and German beer store here in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.
Julia:
Yeah, I'm rocking out to that hefeweizen. It is extremely good.
Amanda:
One of the first beers I ever liked was a hefeweizen. I think it's a very good kind of entry point for people who don't know if beer is for them yet.
Julia:
Yeah, it's a little bit lighter. It's almost like starting with a good shandy.
Amanda:
Yeah, good stuff.
Julia:
One of the first beers I remember really, really liking was one called Checkpoint Charlie, and it was a hefeweizen that was extremely good. It tasted like lemonade.
Amanda:
That is so delicious.
Julia:
Speaking of delicious, Amanda, what delicious things have you been watching, reading, or listening to lately?
Amanda:
I awaited with great bated breath the release of Daniel M. Lavery's newest book, Something That May Shock and Discredit You. The cover is just a wonderfully brooding, Byronic figure, and it is a really lovely, heartfelt, sometimes heart-wrenching collection. No one writes like Danny does, and I love every single thing that he writes, whether that's a newsletter or the brand new book that clearly took a ton of time to make.
Amanda:
Actually, we just set up a list of all the books that we recommend in the show, as well as books by our guests. If you want to find a link to buy Something That May Shock and Discredit You on a great website that helps share revenue with indie bookstores when you make purchases, go to spiritspodcast.com/books.
Julia:
An easy URL to remember, Amanda.
Amanda:
Thank you. I set it up.
Julia:
Speaking of things that may shock and discredit you, I don't know I just did that transition, we're going to be in Austin, Texas and you can get tickets by going to multitude.productions/live and clicking on the Austin, Texas show. We're doing it with Join the Party, and it is going to be an absolute blast.
Amanda:
Absolutely. Get two live shows for the price of one. Come on down. Hang out with us at the north door, and, I don't know, we're going to be full of tacos, and we're going to have a good time.
Julia:
I love being full of tacos. I'm always hungry.
Amanda:
Delish.
Amanda:
We're also so excited this week to let you know about a new show from Multitude. We don't even have a siren for that because it is so rare and exciting. Whoo! Next Stop is an audio sitcom. It's written by our own Eric Silver, Julia assistant-directed it, Brandon Grugle directed, and I executive-produced the show. We also funded it using an advance from Patreon, so we're kind of pioneering this new fundraising model in podcasting.
Amanda:
And, in true Multitude fashion, we're going to be releasing a huge resource with all the things that we did to make the podcast possible, and tips for other folks who want to make fiction shows. But moreover, the trailer is amazing. There are such good jokes. It sounds absolutely fantastic, and you can go to nextstopshow.com to listen to the trailer, or just search for Next Stop in your podcast player.
Julia:
Yeah, if you like Friends, if you like How I Met Your Mother, if you like really any sitcom from the 90s-
Amanda:
Broad City, Tuca & Bertie.
Julia:
What if those existed, but didn't make anyone feel bad, and also, were very modernized and for today's audience? That's what Next Stop is about.
Amanda:
Yeah. There's just so much fatphobia in Friends, and I'm super not into it. The things that draw me to a show like Broad City, where very fantastical things happen to all of them, but each of those things I'm like, "I could see that happening to me or someone I know in the big city," is just so, so fantastic. Eric's scripts are a joy, and it really was a team effort to make them sound as amazing as they could. The cast is, oh, guys, so incredible.
Julia:
They're so great.
Amanda:
And you're going to want to check out that trailer, so plug Next Stop into your podcast player, or go to nextstopshow.com.
Julia:
Do it. It's so good!
Amanda:
Yay, Next Stop!
Amanda:
Without further ado, the next stop on this Spirits Podcast intro train is Episode 168: Myth Movie Night - Gretel and Hansel.
Julia:
Amanda, I picked the movie this week, and it is also my turn to summarize the movie this week.
Amanda:
Yes, Julia. Two minutes.
Julia:
I know Amanda is not the biggest fan of horror, but I'm glad she stuck it through with me to see Gretel and Hansel, which is what this episode is about.
Amanda:
If you do not want to be spoiled for the movie, just skip ahead a little over two minutes.
Julia:
Yes. Okay.
Amanda:
All right, Julia, I have a timer.
Julia:
Oo, boy. I'm a little nervous. This is a bit of a thick plot.
Amanda:
I believe in you.
Julia:
Okay.
Amanda:
All right, three, two, one, go.
Julia:
The movie starts with a baby getting sick and a father taking the baby to an enchantress to cure her. However, she gives the baby the power of premonition, so as the child grows up-
Amanda:
Why?
Julia:
... she uses her powers to kill people because she knows her premonitions end in death, including her father. The kid is taken to the woods, implied to die, I guess, and instead, ends up luring children to the forest instead, like you do, of course.
Amanda:
You know.
Julia:
Cut to Gretel and Hansel. Gretel is trying to find a job to support their family, and is run out by their mother because she is unable to get a job from a creepy dude like you do. They try to hide in a hut but are attacked by a man, but then saved by a hunter. Then, the hunter shelters them for the night, and gives them leads on where they can find a job.
Julia:
So they go into the woods the next morning to forage for food and find work. They eat some magic mushrooms that make them hallucinate and laugh and a bunch of stuff.
Amanda:
Classic.
Julia:
Then Hansel is drawn to a house that smells like cake. That is where they meet Holda, who's a creepy old lady who invites them in, and says they can stay there in exchange for work. Seems fine, right? Probably not going to be a bad thing.
Amanda:
Never.
Julia:
Gretel, however, is suspicious. Hansel, totally chill with the situation at first. Gretel starts to have these visions and hear voices. Holda tells Gretel that she has some magic, and then Hansel starts seeing the visions as well. Hansel falls into a trance, and it's implied that Holda has been turning the remains of people into food that they've been eating. Not great. Cannibalism, usually, we like it. Not this time around.
Julia:
Holda is revealed to be the mother of the child from the beginning of the movie, the one that was killing all the people and got abandoned into the woods, and she was the one that left the child in the woods. However, the child promised her power and mysticism, sure. So Holda ate all of her other children because why not? And then takes the guise of an old woman to lure children to eat.
Julia:
Holda plans to eat Hansel. Gretel was able to kill her with her new magic powers that she got. Gretel sends Hansel home, and then takes the place of Holda after setting the spirits of the children she ate free. And then we're done.
Amanda:
Yay! Wow, you had three seconds left. Incredible.
Julia:
Killed it.
Amanda:
Incredible. Incredible. You did kill it.
Julia:
I timed myself doing that so many times.
Amanda:
Oh, Julia, great job.
Julia:
I wanted to get it good and right.
Amanda:
I also love the Kronos vibes from the whole eating your own kids here.
Julia:
Just eat your own children. It's fine. It's fine.
Amanda:
And by love, I mean identified with those vibes.
Julia:
Yeah. Sure, of course.
Julia:
That was Gretel and Hansel. Did you know, fun fact, you know the dorky guy from Legally Blonde, the one that she makes him look good by being like, "Oh, you broke my heart," when he's getting picked on by the popular girls?
Amanda:
I do.
Julia:
That's the guy who directed this movie, Oz Perkins.
Amanda:
Wow! No way.
Julia:
Yeah, there you go, Oz Perkins II.
Amanda:
I actually have some movie trivia, Julia, at the end of the episode.
Julia:
Oo!
Amanda:
Oo, teaser!
Julia:
I love that. I think how I want to start this discussion is by reading the actual story of Hansel and Gretel because I feel like it's one of the stories where we know the basic beats of it, but we miss all the good details from the original. It's relatively short. It will probably take us 10 minutes to read the whole thing.
Julia:
I would love to also keep in mind comparing, contrasting the plot points of the movie, and the original story that I'm going to read is from the Grimm's Fairytales. It was translated to English by D. L. Ashliman. This is by Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm in case you don't know who the Grimm Brothers are. And we'll learn a little bit more about them when I finish the story. Okay.
Amanda:
I can't wait.
Julia:
Next to a great forest, there lived a poor woodcutter with his wife and his two children. The boy's name was Hansel, and the girl's name was Gretel. He had but little to eat, and once, when a great famine came to the land, he could no longer provide even their daily bread.
Julia:
One evening, he was lying in bed, worrying about his problems. He sighed and said to his wife, "What is to become of us? How can we feed our children when we have nothing for ourselves?" "Man, do you know what?" answered the wife. Man, I don't know.
Julia:
"Early tomorrow morning, we will take the two children out into the thickest part of the woods, make a fire for them, and give them each a little piece of bread. Then leave them by themselves, and go off to our work."
Amanda:
A little of bread is a treat.
Julia:
Yeah, a little bread is a treat, and also, "They will not find their way back home, and we will be rid of them."
Amanda:
Oh! Didn't see that ending that way.
Julia:
Yeah, not great. The man says, "No, woman, I will not do that. How could I bring myself to abandon my own children alone in the woods? Wild animals will soon come and tear them to piece."
Amanda:
Sure.
Julia:
Sure.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
"Oh, you fool," she said. "Then, all four of us will starve. All you can do is to plane the boards for our coffins," and she gave him no peace until he agreed. Not making women great looking at this point.
Amanda:
Sure.
Julia:
It's like, "Let me nag you about killing our children and abandoning them." Not fantastic.
Julia:
"But I do feel sorry for the poor children," said the man. That's good. The two children had not been able to fall asleep because of their hunger, and they heard what the stepmother said to the father.
Amanda:
Oh, it was a stepmother.
Julia:
It's interesting. They change it. Originally, it is the mother, and then later translations turn it into the stepmother. So this is the last translation given before the Grimm Brothers died.
Amanda:
Interesting.
Julia:
Gretel cried bitter tears, and said to Hansel, "It is over with us." "Be quiet, Gretel," said Hansel, "and don't worry. I know what to do." As soon as the adults had fallen asleep, he got up, pulled on his jacket, opened the lower door, and crept outside. The moon was shining brightly, and the white pebbles in front of the house were glistening like silver coins. Hansel bent over and filled his jacket pockets with them, as many as would fit.
Julia:
Then, he went back into the house, and said, "Don't worry, Gretel, sleep well. God will not forsake us." Then he went back to bed. At daybreak, even before sunrise, the woman came and woke the two children. Get up, you lazybones. We are going into the woods to fetch wood. Then she gave them each one piece of little bread, saying, "Here is something for midday. Don't eat it any sooner, for you'll not get any more."
Julia:
Gretel put the bread upon her apron because Hansel's pockets were full of stones. They then together set forth into the woods. After they had walked a little way, Hansel began stopping again and again and looking back towards the house. The father said, "Hansel, why are you stopping and looking back? Pay attention now, and don't forget your legs." "Oh, father," said Hansel, "I am looking for my white cat that is sitting on the roof and wants to say goodbye to me."
Julia:
The woman said, "You fool! That isn't your cat. That's the morning sun shining on the chimney." However, Hansel had not been looking back at his cat, but instead had been dropping the shiny pebbles from his pocket onto the path.
Amanda:
There it is.
Julia:
When they arrived in the middle of the woods, the father said, "You children gather some wood, and I will make a fire so you won't freeze." Hansel and Gretel gathered together some twigs, a pile as high as a small mountain.
Amanda:
That's very descriptive. I love that.
Julia:
After they had sat there a long time, their eyes grew weary and closed, and they fell sound asleep. When they finally awoke, it was dark at night. Gretel began to cry and said, "How will we get out of the woods?" Hansel comforted her. "Wait a little until the moon comes up, and then we'll find the way."
Julia:
After the full moon had come, Hansel took his little sister by the hand. They followed the pebbles that glistened like newly minted coins, showing them the way. They walked throughout the entire night, and as morning was breaking, they arrived at the father's house. They knocked on the door, and when the woman opened it, they saw it was Hansel and Gretel. She said, "You wicked children. Why did you sleep so long in the woods? We thought you did not want to come back."
Amanda:
No!
Julia:
Don't gaslight your children.
Amanda:
No! Fucking gaslighter, God.
Julia:
I like that our reaction was exactly the same on that one.
Amanda:
Yep, yep.
Julia:
But the father was overjoyed when he saw children once more, for he had not wanted to leave them alone. Not long after, there was once again great need everywhere, and one evening, the children heard the mother say to the father, "We have again eaten up everything. We only have half a loaf of bread, and then the song will be over." Great metaphor.
Julia:
"We must get rid of the children. We will take them deeper into the woods so that they will not find their way out. Otherwise, there will be no help for us." The man was very disheartened, of course, and he thought it would be better to share the last bit with the children. But the woman would not listen to him, scolded him, and criticized him. "He who says A, must also say B." Because he had given in the first time, he had to do so the second time as well.
Julia:
That's a great line.
Amanda:
Interesting.
Julia:
He that says A, must also say B.
Amanda:
Yeah, when you commit to doing something, you have to finish it.
Julia:
Yeah, when you start a sentence, you have to finish it. Love it.
Julia:
The children were still awake and overheard the conversation. When the adults were asleep, Hansel got the-
Amanda:
Yeah, adults. Stop talking so loudly in your own home when the kids are awake.
Julia:
It's a small home. They're poor.
Amanda:
Step outside.
Julia:
When the adults were asleep, Hansel got up again and wanted to gather pebbles like he had done before, but the woman had locked the door, and Hansel could not get out. But he comforted his sister and said, "Don't cry, Gretel. Sleep well. God will help us."
Julia:
Early the next morning, the woman came and got the children from their beds. They received their little pieces of bread, even less than the last time. One the way to the woods, Hansel crumbled his piece in his pocket, and then often stood still and threw crumbs onto the ground. "Hansel, why are you always stopping and looking around?" said the father. "Keep walking straight ahead."
Julia:
"I can see my pigeon sitting on the roof. It wants to say goodbye to me." "Fool," said the woman, "that isn't your pigeon. That is the morning sun shining on the chimney." This child cannot determine an animal from some sun shining on a chimney. I know he actually doesn't know it, but this woman does not think very highly of him.
Amanda:
Okay, no. Not at all. Also, wants to kill him.
Julia:
Yes. Again, does not think highly of him.
Amanda:
Not at all.
Julia:
But little by little, Hansel dropped all of the crumbs onto the path. The woman took them deeper into the woods than they had ever been in their whole lifetime. Once again, a large fire was made, and the mother said, "Sit here, children. If you get tired, you can sleep a little. We are going into the woods to cut wood. We will come and get you in the evening when we are finished."
Julia:
Again, I love the pattern of stories. The Grimm Brothers really hit all of those points whenever they're telling fairytales.
Julia:
When it was midday, Gretel shared her bread with Hansel, who had scattered his piece along the path. Then, they fell asleep, and evening passed, but no one came to get the poor children. It was dark at night when they awoke, and Hansel comforted Gretel, and said, "Wait. When the moon comes up, I will be able to see the crumbs of bread that I scattered, and they will show us the way back home."
Julia:
When the moon appeared, they got up, but they couldn't find any crumbs for many thousands of birds that fly about in the wood and the fields had pecked them up. Not the best plan. The bird's not going to eat the rocks.
Amanda:
I also like the many thousands of birds. The birds are hungry here too.
Julia:
There's so many thousands of birds.
Julia:
Hansel said to Gretel, "We will find our way," but they did not find it. They walked the entire night and the next day from morning until evening, but they did not find their way out of the woods. They were terribly hungry for that had eaten only a few small berries that were growing on the ground. And because they were so tired that their legs would no longer carry them, they laid down under a tree and fell asleep.
Julia:
It was already the third morning since they had left the father's house. They started walking again, but managed only to go deeper and deeper into the woods. If help did not come soon, they would perish. At midday, they saw a snow-white bird sitting on a branch. It sang so beautifully that they stopped to listen. When it was finished, it stretched its wings and flew in front of them. They followed it until they came across a little house.
Julia:
The bird sat on the roof, and when they came closer, they saw that the little house was built entirely from bread with a roof made of cake, and the windows were made of clear sugar. Totally, fine. Normal. Exciting, really.
Amanda:
I know. I also like this better than a sort of Candyland version, where the entire house is candy-
Julia:
The gingerbread house.
Amanda:
... or gingerbread, because it's like they want sustenance, but also, a little cake as dessert.
Julia:
A little treat.
Amanda:
And, it really kind of foreshadows all the baking shows were you use iceamalt to make clear glass in fucking Zumbo's Just Desserts.
Julia:
Yes, apparently, that was still a thing you could do back then. Impressive.
Julia:
"Let's help ourselves to a good meal," said Hansel. "I'll eat the piece of the roof, and Gretel, you eat from the window. That will be sweet." There you go. Hansel, reached up and broke off a little piece of roof to see how it tasted, while Gretel stood next to the windowpanes, and was nibbling at them. Then, a gentle voice called out from inside, "Nibble, nibble little mouse. Who is nibbling at my house?"
Amanda:
No! It's rhyming. That means it's bad.
Julia:
The children answered, "The wind, the wind, the heavenly child."
Amanda:
Great, yeah. Good option.
Julia:
They continued to eat without being distracted. Hansel, who very much liked the taste of the roof, tore down another large piece, and Gretel poked out an entire round windowpane. Suddenly, the door opened, and a woman as old as the hills and leaning on a crutch came creeping out.
Julia:
Hansel and Gretel were so frightened that they dropped what they were holding in their hand, but the old woman shook her head and said, "Oh, you dear children, who brought you here? Just come in and stay with me. No harm will come to you."
Amanda:
Yeah, harm's totally going to come to you.
Julia:
She took them by the hand and led them into her house. Then she served them a good meal, milk and pancakes with sugar, apples, and nuts. It sounds like a good breakfast.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
Afterwards, she made two nice beds for them decked in white. Hansel and Gretel went to bed thinking they were in Heaven, but the old woman only had pretended to be friendly. She was a wicked witch who was lying in wait for the children. She had built her house of bread only in order to lure them to her, and if she captured one, she would kill him, cook him, and eat him. For her, that was a day to celebrate.
Amanda:
Oh, dang.
Julia:
Witches have red eyes and cannot see very far, but they have a sense of smell like animals and know when humans are approaching. This is some wild witch lore. I'm here for it.
Julia:
When Hansel and Gretel came near to her, she laughed wickedly and spoke scornfully. "Now, I have them. They will not get away from me again." Again? Oh, no.
Amanda:
Oh, I guess, previous children, maybe?
Julia:
Maybe. Or maybe she knew about them from the time they were in the woods the last time.
Amanda:
Oh, shit.
Julia:
Early the next morning before they awoke, she got up, went to their beds, and looked at the two of them lying there so peacefully with their full red cheeks. "They will be a good mouthful," she mumbled to herself.
Amanda:
Oh, no.
Julia:
Then, she grabbed Hansel with her withered hand and carried him to a little stall where she locked him behind a cage door. Cry as he might, there was no help for him. Damn, Hansel. It's a rough time.
Julia:
Then she shook Gretel and cried, "Get up, lazybones!" The same insult that the stepmother used.
Amanda:
Yes!
Julia:
"Fetch water and cook something good for your brother. He is locked outside in the stall and has to be fattened up. When he is fat, I'm going to eat him. Just reveling the plan like a Bond villain.
Amanda:
Oh, yeah, very Bond, very Fast and Furious.
Julia:
Gretel began to cry, but it was all for nothing. She had to do what the witch demanded. Now, Hansel was given the best things to eat every day, but Gretel received nothing but crayfish shells. Oh, no! That's so sad.
Amanda:
Gretel, the sexism here is, frankly, incredible.
Julia:
But Hansel stuck out a little bone, and the woman who had bad eyes and could not see the bone, thought it was Hansel's finger. And she wondered why he didn't get fat. Little bone. His boney finger.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
When four weeks had passed, and Hansel was still thin, impatience overcame her, and she would wait no longer. "Hey, Gretel," she shouted to the girl, "Hurry up and fetch some water. Whether Hansel is fat or thin, tomorrow I'm going to slaughter him and boil him."
Amanda:
This is a real slow burn of a witch.
Julia:
Oh, yes, it is. It is.
Julia:
Oh, how the poor little sister sobbed as she was forced to carry the water, and how the tears streamed down her cheeks. "Dear God, please help us," she cried. "If only the wild animals had devoured us in the woods, then we would have died together." Geezus, Gretel! That is dark.
Amanda:
This whole thing is horrible.
Julia:
"Save your slobbering," said the old woman. "It doesn't help you at all." The next morning, Gretel had to get up early, hang up the kettle with water, and make a fire. "First, we are going to bake," said the old woman. "I've already made a fire in the oven, and kneaded the dough." She pushed poor Gretel outside to the oven from with fiery flames were leaping. "Climb in," said the witch, "and see if it is hot enough to put the bread in yet." Gretel, don't do that.
Julia:
When Gretel was inside, she intended to close the oven and bake her and eat her as well.
Amanda:
Yeah, horrible.
Julia:
But Gretel saw what she had in mind, so she said, "I don't know how to do that. How can I get inside?" Gretel, smart.
Amanda:
Good.
Julia:
"Stupid goose," said the old woman, "the opening is big enough. See, I myself could get in." And she crawled up and stuck her head into the oven.
Amanda:
There it is.
Julia:
Then, Gretel gave her a shove, causing her to fall in. Then she closed the iron door and secured it with a bar. The old woman began to howl frightfully, but Gretel ran away, and the godless witch burned up miserably. Just throwing it out there that she's godless. Not great, probably, but you know.
Amanda:
Okay, sure.
Julia:
It is the time period that it is.
Julia:
Because they now had nothing to fear, they went into the witch's house. In every corner, there were chests of pearls and precious stones. "These are better than pebbles," said Hansel, filling his pockets.
Amanda:
Oh, Hansel, honey.
Julia:
Gretel said, "I will take some home with me as well," and she filled her apron full. "But now we must leave," said Hansel, "and get out of these witch woods."
Amanda:
Witch woods.
Julia:
After walking a few hours, they arrived at a large body of water. "We cannot get across," said Hansel. "I cannot see a walkway or a bridge." "There are no boats here," answered Gretel, "but there is a white duck swimming. I'll ask it, and it will help us across."
Julia:
She called out, "Duckling, duckling, here stand Gretel and Hansel. Neither a walkway nor a bridge. Take us onto your white back." That one doesn't really rhyme, but that's okay.
Amanda:
A big duck, I guess?
Julia:
A big duck. The duckling came up to them, and Hansel climbed onto it, then asked his little sister to sit down next to him. "No," answered Gretel, "that would be too heavy for the duckling. It should take us across one at the time." That is what the good animal did, and when they were safely on the other side and had walked a little while-
Amanda:
Oh, whew. I was like, "Oh, man. Is it going to drown one of them?"
Julia:
It's going to abandon ...
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
No. And had walked a little while, the woods grew more and more familiar to them. Finally, they saw their father's house in the distance. They began to run, rushed inside, and threw their arms around their father's neck. The man had not had one even happy hour since he had left his children in the wood.
Amanda:
Yeah, good!
Julia:
However, the woman had died. Whew!
Amanda:
Oh.
Julia:
Awesome.
Amanda:
Man, this is true fairytale morality. I kind of forgot how black and white this is.
Julia:
Gretel took out her apron, scattering pearls and precious stones around the room, and Hansel added to them by throwing one handful after the other from his pocket.
Amanda:
Oh, good. I thought he was going to leave a trail back to the ...
Julia:
No.
Amanda:
Okay.
Julia:
Now, all their cares were at an end, and they lived happily together. My tale is done. A mouse has run, and whoever catches it can make himself from it a large, large fur cap.
Amanda:
Oh, that was an unexpected ending.
Julia:
I don't know what that's a reference to. Let me see the translator notes. Nothing in the translator notes, so there we go.
Amanda:
Maybe an idiom that got lost in translation.
Julia:
Perhaps.
Amanda:
Wow, what a dark story.
Julia:
Yeah. Not too far off, I guess, besides the weird magic and the hallucinogenic mushrooms from the movie we watched.
Amanda:
In a way, I think having a horror movie does sort of suit the original intent of the fairytale.
Julia:
Yes, absolutely because it is quite dark.
Amanda:
I guess we think of fairytales as sort of a calming, childish, or for children-style story, but this sounds like a sort of Christian morality tale. This is meant to show you the real consequences that bad things happen sometimes, and that bad people, hopefully, get their comeuppances.
Julia:
It's really interesting to kind of see the moral quandary of it, where it's like, "Should we all die, or should we abandon the children?" It is a moral quandary. What do you value more, the lives of your children and extending those for a short period of time, or do you value your own life and extending that for a longer period of time?
Amanda:
I can't help but imagine that there was some social services or maybe a neighbor-
Julia:
Probably not.
Amanda:
... or you could send the kids to be adopted or to a child welfare organization. I don't know.
Julia:
Listen, they probably could have sent them to a nunnery-
Amanda:
Yeah, orphanage.
Julia:
... friar place. What's a friar place?
Amanda:
Monastery.
Julia:
Monastery. That's the word I was looking for.
Amanda:
I don't know if monasteries took kids.
Julia:
I feel like they did. I don't know, though.
Amanda:
In any case, this is a fairytale setup.
Julia:
Yeah, so let's actually get a refill on our German beers, and then we can touch a little bit more and the background of these fairytales.
Amanda:
Let's do it.
Julia:
Awesome.
Amanda:
Julia, our first sponsor this week is Stitch Fix, which is helping me deal with the terrifyingly warm winter that we are having here in New York by making sure that I have pieces that are going to last me a really long time, things that I find are stylish, that excite me, that are different than what I usually pick, and, above all, ones that are really high quality.
Amanda:
As much as we've talked about all of the ways we love Stitch Fix, the ways that the personal stylists choose things that are just for you, how they have masculine and feminine styles, how these clothes fit you, it's a mix of brands that you know and love, and also, Stitch Fix exclusives, they're also really high quality. I really love that you can tell them what kind of budget you're looking to work within, and they send you items that they really believe in.
Amanda:
The sweater that I got three years ago, I still wear all the time. That's something that's really important to me as I look to shopping in this year.
Julia:
Yeah, I love Stitch Fix. Last Stitch I got, the stylist wrote to me. She's like, "I saw your Instagram," because I sent them my Instagram so they could get a sense of my style, "that you wore the jacket I sent last time, so I sent another one that's like it, but a different color." I was like, "Oh, my God. Thank you so much."
Amanda:
Awesome. That styling fee is automatically applied toward anything you keep from your box. Also, shipping, exchanges, and returns are always free. So the stylist puts together what they think you're going to love. You try them on. If you need to exchange a size or you want to send something back, the $20 is always applied to anything you keep from the box, and shipping always, always free.
Julia:
Yeah, so you can get started today at stitchfix.com/spirits, and get 25% off when you keep everything in your box.
Amanda:
That is stichfix.com/spirits. Stitchfix.com/spirits for 25% when you keep everything in your box.
Julia:
Hey, thanks, Stitch Fix.
Julia:
Amanda, we've been doing a lot of traveling lately, and in between getting on airplanes and sitting in airports, I like to dedicate some time to learning something. I've been exploring new skills. I've been deepening my existing passions, and I'm just getting lost in creativity with the classes from Skillshare.
Amanda:
Heck yeah.
Julia:
You can learn a bunch of different stuff. You can learn stuff like illustration, design, photography, video. You can learn freelancing skills, and so, so much more. Recently, we've been doing a lot of traveling over the past couple weeks. We're going to be doing more traveling in the future, so I took a class called Art Abroad: How to Create a Travel Sketchbook with Christine Nishiyama.
Amanda:
Oh, my gosh.
Julia:
It has been so much fun. Genuinely, I'm not particularly a great artist, but I just enjoy just kind of sitting somewhere and sketching out the people that pass by. It's like people watching, where I get to actively engage a more creative part of my brain.
Amanda:
And what a nice way to kind of stay present and keep making stuff instead of just sort of shuttling from one spot to another on a work trip.
Julia:
Yeah, exactly. With Skillshare's short classes, you can move your creative journey forward without putting your life on hold like I did when I took my class. I didn't have to put it on hold while I was traveling. It was great. You can explore your creativity at skillshare.com/spirits2, where our listeners will get two free months of Skillshare premium. That's two months free at skillshare.com/spirits2.
Amanda:
Thanks, Skillshare.
Amanda:
We are also sponsored this week, Julia, by EveryPlate, which is America's best value meal kit. Now, their dinner options cost only $4.99 per serving and come together in about 30 minutes, so definitely cheaper than getting takeout and faster than going to a grocery store, which means that the time that you would have spent cooking, you can instead spend on things like enrichment, or exercise, or spending time with family and enjoying your meal with somebody you love.
Julia:
Yeah, and I love that they provide all of the ingredients you need in the amounts that you need, so you never have to go to the store to buy something to make EveryPlate's meals. Everything is already pre-measured, ready to go.
Amanda:
Absolutely. I loved getting the EveryPlate box for us to try. It's also the smallest and most efficient-sized box that I have seen of meal kits, which I really appreciated because I live in an apartment and have to carry it up many steps.
Julia:
And I'm always a little skeptical of meal kits because it can be really expensive, and sometimes it's just easier to buy your stuff in bulk. But now, I'm totally convinced that you can get the same deliciousness but at a lower price point.
Amanda:
Absolutely. With this special offer from EveryPlate, our listeners can get six free meals across your first three weeks, as well as free shipping on your first delivery. You can go to everyplate.com and enter code SPIRITS6 to get that offer.
Amanda:
We cooked our first EveryPlate meal when we got home from our LA trip, and it was late, and we were very tired, but it still let us spend some time unpacking and getting the house in order before work the next day. So we got a home-cooked meal, and felt good about it, and still had that time to unpack and kind of get everything in order, which nothing better than saving time.
Julia:
That is true. Time and money.
Julia:
Yeah, again, that is everyplate.com and enter the promo code SPIRITS6, and you can get six free meals over your first three weeks, and free shipping.
Amanda:
Thanks, EveryPlate! Now, let's get back to the show.
Julia:
So, Amanda, I wanted to give a little bit of background on the Grimm Brothers because I feel like everyone's heard the name before, but honestly, I didn't know a ton about them until I started researched folklore and stuff like that. The Grimm Brothers, Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, or, if you want to get real German, I guess it's Wilhelm.
Amanda:
Wilhelm.
Julia:
Jacob and Wilhelm were born in Hanau, Germany in 1785 and 1786, respectively.
Amanda:
Really? In my brain, they're like 1500s.
Julia:
Nope, 1700s.
Amanda:
Wow.
Julia:
The late 1700s, too.
Amanda:
At that. Yeah, writing in the 1800s.
Julia:
Yes. While their first collection of folktales was not published during their lifetime, they were able to publish children's and household tales in 1812. The final version of this was published in 1857, a few years before the brother's deaths. Despite the name, these aren't stories intended for children, as we can obviously tell by the content of the story, but rather these were stories about children and families and the moral quandaries that they were put through.
Amanda:
Really? I thought that they were intended to tell to kids.
Julia:
Nope.
Amanda:
Wow.
Julia:
I know. We were just like, "Oh, it says children, so let's show the children these stories." No.
Amanda:
Wow.
Julia:
Don't tell the children stories about how they're going to get murdered by their stepmother. I don't know.
Amanda:
Wow, that makes a lot more sense. I feel like it's a sort of truism that, oh, yeah, they were just super dark kid's stories, but that makes sense.
Julia:
The brothers started collecting folktales, stories, and songs at the beginning of the 19th century while they were still young men studying at the University of Marburg. They were teens when they started researching this stuff.
Julia:
Wilhelm eventually became a low-paid librarian at the Royal Library, while Jacob served in the Hessian War Commission. Jacob eventually lost his position when the French occupied Kassel. He was hired as a librarian in Westphalia by King Jérôme, who was Napoleon's brother.
Amanda:
Oh, Westphalia.
Julia:
Yes.
Amanda:
Anyone who knows the musical Candide is automatically our friend.
Julia:
Haha! That's true. We were just talking about that at the LA live show.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
That was a lot of fun.
Julia:
So they worked with their friend, romantic poet, Clemens Brentano in 1808 to create a book of literary fairytales, but Brentano eventually lost the manuscript, just left it in a library somewhere. He's like, "I don't know where the Hell that went."
Amanda:
No!
Julia:
However, the Grimm Brothers saved all of their stories that they had collected for the manuscript, and with the encouragement of another friend, they published their own collection of 86 tales in 1812, and then another 70 published in 1815.
Amanda:
That makes me feel a lot better about all the times that I have lost an assignment because I did not save the documents I was working on.
Julia:
Doesn't it make you feel a little bit better about that?
Amanda:
It does. I'm also realizing now that kids these days must not know that pain because, for the most part, they must work on cloud documents, and also now, Microsoft Word does autosaving as well.
Julia:
That's extremely useful.
Amanda:
What a brave new world.
Julia:
Yeah. At least I feel like we had it pretty good for a while. We didn't spend a lot of time-saving things onto floppy disks and stuff like that.
Amanda:
Yes, which definitely was an added step and quite corruptible. I actually have a floppy disk with some kind of data on it from my Neopets days, but-
Julia:
Wow, of course.
Amanda:
... obviously, no tools to read it.
Julia:
Yep. Nope because no one has any sort of floppy disk reader anymore.
Amanda:
I'm sure one of the libraries somewhere will.
Julia:
Maybe. Okay. The Grimm Brothers reportedly first heard the story of Hansel and Gretel from Wilhelm's future wife, Henrietta Dorthea Wild, who has the best name ever. Such a good name, right?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
Also, fun fact, Dorthea was their mother's name as well.
Amanda:
Ah, very sweet.
Julia:
The story was first published in the collection in 1812, but the story most likely originated during the Great Famine in Europe, which was from 1315 to 1317.
Amanda:
Yeah, I was going to say, the thing that was most surprising as we went through the original was how serious and real starvation is.
Julia:
Yeah, absolutely. This was a medieval period of time, and they didn't write it down for 500 years. Isn't that wild?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
Just collectively had the same story told for 500 years, and then finally, someone collected it and published it, and wrote it down.
Amanda:
I don't know. Would you think to write down the lyrics to Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star or something?
Julia:
No, I guess not, but I assume someone else has done that. You know what I mean?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
Honestly, fair.
Amanda:
Well, also, as we talk about in this month's Head, Heart, Gut about rock, paper, or scissors, which one is best. Mine was team paper, and paper wasn't really cheap and widely available until the late 1800s.
Julia:
That's fair.
Amanda:
I definitely understand that for people conserving paper or monks are handwriting manuscripts, you probably are going to prioritize things that are of "higher cultural value."
Julia:
Fair. Absolutely. Speaking a little bit more on the Great Famine, because of hard times, many people, like we saw in the story, abandoned their children in order to feed themselves, and there were some reports that people resorted to cannibalism in order to survive.
Amanda:
Wow.
Julia:
So we see both of those instances in the story.
Amanda:
Yeah, there are definitely these elements of the opinions and historical circumstances that informed these folk stories like everything does. I was not surprised, but still saddened to hear that there are some just gross, antisemitic stories in the original collection, and those were appropriated later on by the Third Reich. It's not a thing I want to dwell on, but also something that I didn't want to leave unacknowledged as we talk about these stories.
Julia:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's fair. In reading the story, we see the witch get called a godless heathen, which is not great, again. Not super great that we're othering someone, and also associating not a belief in a Christian god with cannibalism and ...
Amanda:
Differences made evil, and that is the fundamental tenant of hatred and othering.
Julia:
Yes, and not great. Don't do that. Learn from the Grimm Brother's mistakes. Don't be like, "Ah, yes. They don't believe in God. Therefore, they eat children." No, unacceptable.
Amanda:
I think also a good reminder that writing things down gives them power, and that making a record of something and publishing something is never neutral. I feel like we see this more and more. Who do you choose to retweet? Whose posts and whose research and whose links do you deign to share? When you want to talk about a serious issue, do you amplify a thing that's problematic, or do you kind of allude to it and talk about the bigger issue?
Amanda:
I feel like it's something that, in the olden days, it was journalists trained in ethics are the ones that are kind of determining what is published and what is public record, but now, all of us are. It's something that I've been thinking about a lot, and I don't know. Just sparked the thought.
Julia:
Yeah, I think that there's an interesting aspect in studying history that everything has a certain bias. When you try to look at history without acknowledging that bias, you create a skewed version of history, and it really takes a lot of effort to make sure that when you are studying history or when you're talking about the past, you talk about the influences that this version of the past has.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Julia:
I also want to talk about something. Speaking about history, I want to talk about something that I had a passing familiarity with, but really dug into in the research of this episode, which is the Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index-
Amanda:
Oo, what's this?
Julia:
... also known as the ATU Index. It is used to catalog folklore types, since a lot of folkloric stories can be broken down into very similar, fundamental stories with different details. It's kind of like Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces, but acknowledging, oh, yeah, there are different versions of this story. This is the most well-known one, but across all cultures, there is a story that is similar to this.
Amanda:
Cool. Tell me more.
Julia:
It was first created by Finnish folklorist, Antti Aarne. I'm probably going to pronounce all these wrong. I'm sorry. And then was expanded upon by Stith Thompson and Hans-Jörg Uther. Thompson defines tale types as ... this is a great quote ... "A traditional tale that has an independent existence. It may be told as a complete narrative and does not depend for its meaning on any other tale. It may, indeed, happen to be told with another tale, but the fact that it may be told alone tests to its independence. It may consist of only one motif or of many."
Amanda:
Fascinating.
Julia:
Yeah, I think that's a really great definition of what a folkloric tale is, and what it fundamentally is. When we hear the Hansel and Gretel story, we usually only get the bread crumbs, the witch's hut, trying to get eaten, then returning home. We usually don't get the details of the duckling or the starvation or the evil stepmother.
Amanda:
Or the rocks.
Julia:
Those are details that it can be told without, but it does add an additional bonus to it.
Julia:
I also love this definition because I think it applies to the movie as well, the story of Hansel and Gretel can absolutely be told independently, as the story of the child from the beginning of the film also can be told independently. By the way, if you're interested, Hansel and Gretel, it's classified as class 327A in the ATU Index.
Amanda:
Incredible. I want to read this so bad. It's very, very cool.
Julia:
Speaking of which, there are also several stories that are similar to other fairytales stories from across Europe to the Hansel and Gretel ones. Folklorist Iona and Peter Opie pair them with Baltic stories that feature children outwitting ogres or monsters. Such tales as Hop O' My Thumb, Finette Cendron, Clever Cinders, The Lost Children, Little Brother and Little Sister, and Vasilisa the Beautiful. Shout out to Baba Yaga because she's the witch in that story.
Amanda:
Hey.
Julia:
Many of these stories, Hansel and Gretel included, are parallels to coming of age stories, in which the rite of passage is to enter the woods and manage to find your way back out again. This is particularly interesting too when you examine the fact that the children are sent out to find jobs, and in the film, Gretel is interrogated on the status of her virginity. I think those are interesting kind of frames in which to look at the coming of age story and how Hansel and Gretel kind of fit into it.
Amanda:
Totally.
Julia:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah, just because they're kids trying to literally survive, doesn't mean it's not an allegory for less base need issues.
Julia:
Yeah, absolutely. Amanda, I think you did a little bit of research on other adaptations of Grimm fairytales?
Amanda:
I sure did. I guess I was staggered to see, and to be reminded how many Disney-
Julia:
Stories are Grimm stories.
Amanda:
... stories come from Grimm fairytales. There a list on Wikipedia of films based on Grimm fairytales, and that includes Cinderella, obviously, Hansel and Gretel, Little Red Riding Hood, Rapunzel, Rumpelstiltskin, Shrek, Sleeping Beauty, and Snow White, which was like, oh, yeah, those are just the big canonical, new, modern-age Disney films or classic age.
Julia:
Also, Dreamworks.
Amanda:
Yeah, it's staggering how many of the things that we think of as just classic just children's stories/fairytales come from these stories and a lot of Disney and Dreamworks work.
Julia:
Yeah, do you have a personal favorite, Amanda, of those?
Amanda:
Well, Julia, I do, and I'm glad that you asked. This is kind of a based off of based off of. We worked on this show, but also, the movie is interesting. It's Into the Woods-
Julia:
Of course.
Amanda:
... which deals with ...
Julia:
Basically, all of them.
Amanda:
Yes, exactly, and also is incredibly dark. So I think that kind of represents the tonal difference. What's also interesting, given the Index, you can just put on the first act of Into the Woods, and it's just kind of a nice fairytale musical. Then if you stay for the second act, things get real bad.
Julia:
Fun fact, if you get the Broadway Junior version of the script for Into the Woods, it is only the first half of the play. There is no second half whatsoever.
Amanda:
It sure is. This is something that's so fundamental. It's kind of like our pop culture understanding that it's hard to kind of know what to say. So instead, I'm going to tell you about the development process for Into the Woods.
Julia:
Fantastic.
Amanda:
I'm really just going to pull an Eric Silver and come in with the research that you did not expect, but need.
Julia:
I'm in for it. In for a penny, in for a pound. Let's do it.
Amanda:
Into the Woods has been a musical, obviously, but people have been talking about turning it into a film since the early 1990s. There was originally an attempt to make it into a film at the time. These two guys, Ganz and Mandel, wrote a script for the show, or a screenplay based on the show for the screen. And a reading was held with a cast that included ...
Julia:
Oh, boy.
Amanda:
Prepare yourself.
Julia:
Here we go.
Amanda:
Robin Williams as the baker.
Julia:
What?!
Amanda:
Goldie Hawn as the baker's wife.
Julia:
Okay, yeah.
Amanda:
Cher as the witch. Danny DeVito as the giant, which is fun.
Julia:
Um, okay.
Amanda:
Steve Martin as the wolf, and Roseanne Barr as Jack's mother. Glad that didn't happen.
Julia:
Oh, yeah. Glad that didn't happen.
Amanda:
Yeah. That was just incredibly-
Julia:
That is a wild cast.
Amanda:
... incredibly fun, and that kind of fizzled and died. Then in '97, Columbia put the film kind of back into play with Minkoff still attached as the director. Reportedly in talks to star in the film, Billy Crystal, Meg Ryan, Susan Sarandon.
Julia:
Honestly, not a bad cast.
Amanda:
Not a bad cast at all.
Julia:
Would kind of be down for it.
Amanda:
I love it. I would also be very down.
Julia:
Billy Crystal would probably make a very good baker. Not going to lie.
Amanda:
I think so too. Yeah, very wholesome, and I think the man can sing.
Julia:
Yeah. Is this before or after the filmed stage version came out?
Amanda:
That happened in '91, so maybe that was one of the kind of impetuses for being like, "Hey, this could really be a thing on screen."
Julia:
Sure, yeah.
Amanda:
And, Julia, you might be asking, "Well, what actually tipped it over into being made in 2012?"
Julia:
I am asking that. Please, tell me.
Amanda:
Well, Julia, it was 9-11.
Julia:
Oh, no!
Amanda:
Because President Barack Obama in 2011 made a speech, the families of 9-11 victims for the anniversary. I think I said that already. You may remember that in the 10th anniversary of 9-11, President Obama made a really moving speech to the families of the 9-11 victims, which, in the eyes of Rob Marshall, who directed the most recent version, seemed to evoke the same message as the song, No One is Alone. It's quite a thing to match together.
Julia:
Yeah. Yeah, bro.
Amanda:
This was a moment for Marshall because he said that Into the Woods was, "a fairytale for the post-9-11 generation."
Julia:
Oh, geezus.
Amanda:
Yep.
Julia:
Okay.
Amanda:
Someone really agreed, and despite the story being quite dark thematically, and it says in the Wikipedia article, "Which Disney executives had begun to understand since Marshall's original pitch." That it was dark?
Julia:
Yeah, bro.
Amanda:
Yeah, quite. Anyway, they decided to go ahead with it, and, of course, that is how we got Meryl Streep making a famous exemption to her no witches over 40 rule, that, after she turned 40, she would not play any witches.
Julia:
Yeah, that's fine.
Amanda:
She was like, "You know what? I will. I'll do a Sondheim role, that's fine."
Julia:
It's the hot witch. Bernadette Peters played the witch.
Amanda:
Yes.
Julia:
Yeah. It's the hot witch. It's fine. It's not like ugly, crone witch the entire time.
Amanda:
Yeah, but I love that Streep was like, "The one person who could get me to play into this stereotype, Sondheim."
Julia:
Yeah, I would do anything for Sondheim. That's a fact. You can try me on it.
Amanda:
Totally. And that was what I have to tell you about the development of Into the Woods. Again, was really going to go for a full history of adaptations here on film, but this was-
Julia:
Then, you're like, "But Sondheim."
Amanda:
This actually happened, and I feel like you have to know about it.
Julia:
It's wonderful. Thank you for that little detail there.
Amanda:
You're so welcome.
Julia:
I think, Amanda, we can wrap up with that. If you haven't had the chance to see Gretel and Hansel yet, and you like horror movies, I recommend it. Go check it out.
Amanda:
I think it's a good matinee. Pay eight bucks. Bring a bagel.
Julia:
While it's still light outside.
Amanda:
Yes.
Julia:
That kind of thing.
Amanda:
Totally.
Julia:
Yeah, like the witch in Gretel and Hansel, remember to stay creepy.
Amanda:
Stay cool.