Episode 369: Greek Word Origins
/We get a lot of interesting words from Greek mythology - some more surprising than others. But what if we made up some words of our own, inspired by Greek mythology. We hope they catch on.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, cannibalism, infanticide, warfare, sex, mental illness, drowning, murder, domestic violence, animal death, imprisonment, sexual assault, transphobia, gender violence, and child birth.
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- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
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- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And hey, Amanda, it's our first episode of the New Year. Happy New Year.
AMANDA: Happy New Year, Julia. How are you feeling? How you doing?
JULIA: I'm feeling good. I always get like weird around the New Year, the idea of a lot of people get really down on themselves being like, "Oh, I didn't achieve anything in this past calendar year." And I think that is not the best mentality to go into a new year. Like, yeah, you can use it as motivation, but at the same time, hey, like, be gentle on yourself. Maybe the year didn't turn out the way that you were hoping, and that's fine. You got other years ahead of you.
AMANDA: We're also four months into the Jewish year, Lunar New Year, and it's also a leap year in both calendars. So there's just like—
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: In the Jewish calendar, an extra month. In the Gregorian calendar, an extra day. Like, it feels like there's— there's room in 2024 that I'm really excited about.
JULIA: I didn't even know that you guys get an extra month in the Lunar calendar on a leap year. That's wild. I love that. That's great.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now because it is the new year, and because I'm sure everyone is kind of coming off that holiday high/low, depending on how you feel about the holidays. I wanted to do something kind of fun and light-hearted for this episode back and just, you know, a little bit more freeform than our usual episodes. So, Amanda, I want to talk to you today about the Greek mythology origins of words.
AMANDA: One of my very favorite topics. And I think that makes me feel smart and occasionally get jeopardy answers right. Where a couple months ago, there was one about, "Oh, he's gonna roll that boulder all the time." And I'm like, "Sisyphus, I know that guy."
JULIA: And you nailed it by talking about the first one that I'm going to talk about today. But—
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: —Amanda, that's only half of our episode.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: I have a fun, little game inspired by something that I've been thinking about lately, that I'm going to have us play in the back half of this episode, after we get back from our refill.
AMANDA: Tension, I love it. It's like a trailer. My favorite part of your, like, previews for the rest of the episode is that unlike a movie preview where it's like, "In nine months, enjoy this movie." This is like 20 minutes from now. It's perfect.
JULIA: Anytime someone's like, "Ooh, I have a surprise for you." I'm like, "You need to tell me an immediate countdown to when I'm going to find out that surprise." Otherwise, I will be anxious about it for however long it's going to be, and I don't love that. But I do love this. I do love teasing it out for you in the 20 minutes or so that it takes for us to get there. So—
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: Let's start, Amanda, with— I've chosen nine words that people may or may not know have Greek origin to them. And there's a lot of words that have Greek or ancient Greek roots, but are not specifically tied to a figure. So like, for example, like chaotic comes from chaos, which is a, like, primordial Greek figure.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But I mean, that's— that's kind of, like, not redundant, but like we know— we know that one. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But I wanted to pick some ones that may not be as known or I think are some very evocative, and so are worth mentioning.
AMANDA: Hell yeah. I am so obsessed with Etymology, the— the roots of words. Once I signed up for a class that I thought was Etymology, and in fact, it was Entomology, which is the study of bugs. And you know what? Bugs was really interesting, but that's not the thing that I'm most excited about, so I can't wait.
JULIA: The real, like, hubris of that, the real irony of that is if you had taken the Etymology course, you would've recognized that Entomology was about bugs.
AMANDA: You're right, Julia. It was full. It was full.
JULIA: So as you as always brilliantly pointed out, we have Sisyphus. Now, a Sisyphean task or something that is Sisyphean is a task that can never be completed. It's also someone or something that requires continual and often ineffective effort. Now, my problem is I— I have been studying Greek mythology for a really long time. I always confuse Sisyphus and Tantalus in regards to, like, who did what in order to be punished in Hades and in the Underworld. Like I— I know what their different punishments are, but I'm like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "—What did you do again to get there? What was it?"
AMANDA: And is it right that Tantalus is this— this, like, torturous thing just out of reach, and Sisyphus has to, like, do it all again every time?
JULIA: Shh. We'll get there, baby. We'll get there.
AMANDA: Okay, okay.
JULIA: No worries. Sisyphus was out there breaking one of the biggest laws that one could break in Greek mythology. Amanda, do you know what that law is?
AMANDA: Thinking you're better than a god?
JULIA: He also did that, too. I'll be honest, he also did that, too. But he broke the laws of hospitality.
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: He was a tyrant of a king who would kill visitors who came to his home, just to kind of like show off how powerful he was and that he could do that, which obviously pisses the gods off, but in particular, pisses Zeus off because that is his domain, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So Zeus ordered Thanatos, who is the embodiment of death to take Sisyphus and chained him up in Tartarus, which is like the deepest, darkest hole in the Underworld in Hades.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, two very important interjections here.
JULIA: Go for it.
AMANDA: One, Elizabeth Holmes really should not have named her company Theranos, because Thanatos is—
JULIA: Too close.
AMANDA: —literally the personification of death. Secondly, every time you talk about Tartarus, I do picture an entire swimming hole filled with tartar sauce, and that's just— that's just my thing.
JULIA: You know what? I didn't— until now, and now that's gonna have to be how I think about it every single time. Thank you for that.
AMANDA: And— and Sisyphus is like a— like a battered fish finger being dipped in that sauce.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Well, he's going to be tied underneath so he will not be crispy for very long.
AMANDA: Not at all.
JULIA: So Thanatos has taken Sisyphus down into the Underworld. And Sisyphus is like, "Hold on, I know how the Underworld works." Basically, like, "Why is Thanatos here taking me when it should be Charon?" You know, the ferryman. You know? Like—"
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "—What did I do"— well, he probably does, but—
AMANDA: Why the VIP treatment? Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. He's like, "Why— why am I being treated like this? I— I can't be going down to Tartarus. Oh, no, this is bad." So he, very quickly, very slyly goes, "Hey, real quick, Thanatos, what is up with these chains? They seem like really good chains. How do those work? I've never seen chains like this before." And Thanatos goes, "Oh, well, I mean, like I could— I— I'm death, but I could show you how these work." And, of course, Sisyphus manages to chain death to his own chains in Tartarus and runs off.
AMANDA: I love Thanatos being like, "Oh, my God. No one ever asked me about my chains. I did put a lot of work into them."
JULIA: "Oh, my gosh." So with Thanatos locked up, no mortal can die, Amanda, which causes some problems. In particular, this pisses off Ares, because he's like, "What's the point of going into battle if no one I kill actually dies?"
AMANDA: I mean, okay, yes.
JULIA: So he goes, and he's like, "What is happening?" He finds Thanatos. He's like, "What a situation you've got yourself into." He frees him, and he goes, and he fetches Sisyphus himself. Ares brings Sisyphus to Thanatos. But before all of that, he basically— he kills him in— you know, as much of a phrase as one can say. But before Ares came and before Thanatos was freed, Sisyphus had told his wife, "Hey, here's what I want you to do to prove your love to me." Because he knows that, like, this is not gonna last forever. He's not going to have Thanatos trapped for forever.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: He goes, "What I want you to do is I want you, when— when I die, to take my body, strip it down naked, throw it into the center of the marketplace for everyone to see. That'll prove how much you love me."
AMANDA: I'm remembering this now.
JULIA: Yes. And so his wife does that because she's like, "I do love you. You're a terrible man, but I love you." And so Sisyphus appears on the shores of the River Styx and goes to Persephone, goddess of the Underworld and says, "Look at what my wife did to my body. Look at how ungrateful she is and how she mistreated me. I won't be able to rest until I'm given a proper burial and I have a good talking to with my wife."
AMANDA: Fucking bummer. I hate this.
JULIA: And so Persephone's like, "I mean, yeah, that— that shouldn't have happened. You can go up and talk to her, and then you can come right back."
AMANDA: She doesn't know?
JULIA: He just goes, and he just starts living life again.
AMANDA: Oh, my God. He did think he was smarter than the gods as well.
JULIA: He really did, he really did. He has to be forcefully dragged back to Hades by Hermes. And it is after all of this, after escaping death twice, that he has given his signature punishment in the Underworld, which is he must roll a huge boulder endlessly up a steep hill. And Hades being pissed that, one, this man has escaped death twice and also tricked his wife, has enchanted the boulder so that it always rolls away from Sisyphus just before he reaches the top, which forces Sisyphus to go back down to the bottom and start the whole process over again. So this cycle of useless effort and frustration is where we get our word Sisyphean.
AMANDA: I really appreciate that the backstory gives even more meaning to the— the flavor of this word, as describing tasks that have no purpose being there, that are— are like self-defeating, that are silly to engage in that, you know, are not going to, you know, result in something useful. And that's really where— where I use the word Sisyphean.
JULIA: Yes. As you should, you know/ I— I really love it. I think it's great. It's a good word, and more people should use it. I feel that way about a lot of the words here on this list, so I'm like, "People should use these more." We should all talk like Edwardian Scholars and stuff like that, where they're just constantly making like romantic Greek references.
AMANDA: Oh, my God. Can I say that— that is so overwhelming? Like, I'll open up a Henry James novel, like a canonical, you know, New York City writer of this sort of like late 1800s, and he'll be like, "Ah, yes, a real…" and then just like referred to some figure, like minor figure from Classical mythology, with a capital C, that I'm just like, "I don't know what that means." And it can be very alienating and overwhelming to have to, like, be familiar with the Christian Bible, or like all of Western mythological canon. That's terrifying, and overwhelming. So I love that we're focusing in on like a few words where it's like, "Bitch, enjoy this word. Like, let me tell you all about it. And then if you want to use it one day, you will be like, 'Oh, my God, that was delicious. I know exactly what I was saying.'"
JULIA: Exactly. I love that. I love that for you. And I think that like Sisyphean is one of those ones that is very, like, specific to a thing, and is a little bit less commonly used than our next word, which is tantalize.
AMANDA: Hmm. One of the words with a dark underbelly when you think about it. A sad story.
JULIA: For a word that can be like a really, like, positive word—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —it is very dark in origin.
AMANDA: So Julia, let me— let me use it in a sentence before we get started. Which is like I might say to somebody, you know, "Oh, my God. The smell of those chicken tenders is tantalizing. Like, it is tempting me. It is making me a little bit hypnotized. Like, I love it so much, it is so delicious. It is making me want that thing so bad."
JULIA: Yes. So tantalize is defined as to torment or tease someone with the sight or promise of something that is unobtainable, and that is exactly how Tantalus is punished. So he is also another person that abused hospitality laws, because he was invited to dine on Mount Olympus by Zeus himself, which is a big deal.
AMANDA: Ooh, big deal.
JULIA: However, he was tantalized by the ambrosia and the nectar of the gods, and so stole some to bring back to his people and basically, like, revealed the secret of the gods as to how they maintain their immortality and their longevity.
AMANDA: You can't do that, bro.
JULIA: That's not his most heinous crime. That's what got Zeus pissed off at him to begin with.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: But his most heinous crime is that he hosted a banquet for the gods himself, which is like— oh, you know, it's like having friends for a potluck. You're like, "Alright, I'll host it this week, you guys host next week, and then we all like—"
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "—it kind of rotate through." So he offered up his son, Pelops, as a sacrifice, cutting him up and serving him as the main course and a feast for the gods, because he wanted to see if they were truly omniscient.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: A bold choice.
AMANDA: A very bold choice. So what happened next?
JULIA: So the gods, for the most part, realized what was going on, did not partake in the main course, except for Demeter. Because in the timeline, this is a period in which she had just lost Persephone.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And so in her grief and her mourning, didn't realize what she was eating and took a big bite out of Pelops.
AMANDA: Tough.
JULIA: Like, eventually, all the pieces were put back together and he was revived, except for the piece in his shoulder that Demeter took a big bite out of, and that was turned into like a gold prosthetic, which is actually kind of nice.
AMANDA: Ooh. That is awesome.
JULIA: But as punishment, Tantalus is basically forced to stand in a pool of water, also in Tartarus, above him is a fruit tree full of delicious fruit that is hanging on low branches. However, whenever he attempts to reach up to eat one of the fruits, the branches would rise just out of his reach.
AMANDA: So a dark torture, but for kind of a— a terrible dude. So—
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: —you know, I'll— I'll accept it. But just the fact that I use it for like food I want to eat, or like thoughts of food, makes me laugh, because it is— you know, it is all about food and, like, that makes a lot of sense. But, wow, does this kind of take tempting to a whole new level.
JULIA: Yes, exactly. It also refers to the water that he's standing, because if he ever tries to reach down to take a sip of water— basically, in some versions of the story, they really like kind of up the game too, where he's— he's constantly burdened by both unending hunger and also thirst. So anytime he reaches for the water as well, it recedes so that he cannot scoop it up. So he's always being tantalized by the things that he cannot have.
AMANDA: Tough, dude.
JULIA: It's tough. It's a rough one. For sure.
AMANDA: I mean, I didn't like, you know, sacrifice my son in order to see if the gods really were as smart as they claimed to be, but I am very tempted by chicken nuggies at all times.
JULIA: Like, what's better than a chicken nuggie when you think about it?
AMANDA: Truly. Instagram had started send— serving me merch that just says like, "Chicken tenders," on it. Like, just a sweatshirt that says, "Chicken tenders," and I'm like, "Yes!"
JULIA: As a person who owns a sweatshirt that says rigatoni, Amanda, buy it.
AMANDA: Yeah, thank you. Thank you.
JULIA: Our next one is probably more obvious, but especially if you've listened to our Greek mythology Episodes, but that is the word erotic.
AMANDA: Yes, that's a very good point.
JULIA: Yeah, something that tends to arouse sexual desire or excitement. And this, of course, comes from the god Eros, who is the god of carnal love, and he was said to be the assistant to his mother Aphrodite, and famously made people fall in love by shooting an arrow into their heart. He is also one of the Erotes, who are the winged love gods, all of which represent different types of love. Eros is specifically love and desire. And I was thinking about this and I was looking at the Erotes again, I was like, "You know what? I think, like, while Erotic works, sure. I think that himerotic, after the Erote Himeros would actually probably be better for the definition of erotic, because he is the Erote of uncontrollable desire, representing desire, but also unrequited love.
AMANDA: That's really specific and fascinating. And I love, as usual, all of the disambiguation and unfurlings, the different kinds of love, desire, want, relationship that can exist between people, including the one-sided, which I think is really important to shout out.
JULIA: I was about to say more romance novels should be written about one-sided romance, and then I was like, "That wouldn't appeal to 99% of romance readers, and that's fine."
AMANDA: There is happily a— a fanfic tag for you, Julia, in the unrequited romance or the unresolved sexual tension or UST.
JULIA: I'm glad you can me— you can tell me what AO3 tag I gotta follow for that.
AMANDA: Always, baby. Always.
JULIA: The next one we're going to talk about is a word that gets thrown a lot around on the internet.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: But perhaps is not necessarily the actual definition for what people are referring to, but a na—
AMANDA: Julia, Julia, just a— just a pause there. That could be literally dozens of words.
JULIA: I know, I know. But a narcissist—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —not counting the actual mental disorder of narcissism, is someone who has excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
AMANDA: So narcissists, again, just remembering my—my professionally, a little bit familiar with Greek mythology role here. Something about not being able to look away from his own reflection?
JULIA: Yes. So, basically, Narcissus was a mortal man, who was perhaps the most beautiful mortal man in all of Greek mythology, admired by all for his beauty, regardless of gender. He rejected any potential suitor and did not find love until he caught a glimpse of his own reflection in a pool of water.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Now in some versions, he either withered away because he could not bear to tear his site away from the image. In others, he tried so hard to be with himself that he ended up drowning himself.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: And regardless of how his tale ends tragically, it also ends with the growth of a beautiful flower that was given his name in memorial, which is a very beautiful flower.
AMANDA: This one feels more like somebody named a distinct thing after a figure that reminded them of the thing, versus like Sisyphean, right, like tantalizing, erotic were like describing, you know, sensations or situations that sort of, like, derived from that scenario versus Narcissus—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —specifically. Somebody was like, "Okay, I want to describe this, like, personality type mood disorder. Let me choose someone that I— kind of reminds me of it, versus a more kind of organic, like, making a name into an adjective."
JULIA: Kind of falls into the same category as like— for example, like the Oedipal complex.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —or something to that effect. Or, like, you know, an Electra complex where—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —it's like, "Oh, well, here's an example of this thing that I am now defining." You know?
AMANDA: A bunch of people who studied classical Greek Literature became psychotherapists, and were like— and literary, you know, analyzers, and were like, "Oh, yes, I— I know the shorthand for this."
JULIA: This is a kind of like subplot one to narcissistic and narcissists, but they're often told in tandem with the story of Echo, who was a nymph that fell in love with Narcissus, and was basically, like, cursed to only be able to repeat the word said back to her, and so could not convince Narcissus to pull himself away from the pool. And so that's where we get the word Echo from as a repeating thing.
AMANDA: That's one of my favorites. I don't think I knew that origin. That's amazing, but also what a— yeah, a poetic sort of pairing for the one enamored with his own appearance as the— the woman who can only repeat the words of others.
JULIA: It's beautiful and sad, and that's what Greek mythology is. The next one I have on the list is the Herculean task.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: Now, a Herculean task is one that I kind of love using, in general. Though, the origin— I mean, is probably pretty obvious to most people, but this is an extremely difficult task requiring great physical or mental strength in order to succeed. And, of course, it's a reference to not only the strength of the demigod hero, Hercules, but a reference to the 12 Labors of Hercules, which the hero did as atonement for killing his wife and children in a madness that was set upon him by the goddess Hera, because why not?
AMANDA: This one, definitely, when I use it, I'm sort of implying and connotating a task that is, like, cinematic, or really defined, or can come to, you know, means something really meaningful finishing it. So it's not like going to the grocery store, but it's when, you know, there's eight feet of snow and you need to go to three different grocery stores in order to find like the thing you need. And then coming home, like your bag breaks, and— yeah, blah, blah, blah. Then it becomes a Herculean task. And it's like truly the gods have sent me up to accomplish something that should be un-accomplishable.
JULIA: I feel like you could also similarly— and I don't have it on the list, but most people use Odyssey for a similar reason. Like, being like, "This is a thing that's going to take a long time, and it's going to be— like I'm going to have to go—"
AMANDA: 12 steps.
JULIA: "—to all three grocery stores—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —to find that specific ingredient that I needed, and it's going to take much longer than it should have.
AMANDA: I think this podcast has made me not use that word lightly, because I'm like, "If you're not meeting with cyclops and almost dying from women's voices, then like this is not an Odyssey, baby."
JULIA: Yeah, it's not it. It just simply isn't. Now, Amanda, when I call something ambrosial, I am definitely not referring to Ambrosia salad from the Midwest.
AMANDA: Yes, that's true.
JULIA: Instead, I am referring to something so exceptionally pleasing in taste or smell that it seems worthy of the gods.
AMANDA: Yes, you are.
JULIA: And that, of course, is the case with the actual origin of this phrase, which is ambrosia, which was the food of the gods, sometimes said to be what gave them their longevity and immortality. And it was often served in a heavenly feast brought to the banquet table, either by the goddess of youth Hebei, or Zeus' cupbearer, Ganymede. And it was also said that ambrosia was what Hera used to, quote, "cleanse all defilement from her lovely flesh," which basically she would bathe in it every year so that she would become a virgin again.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Which I love that for her.
AMANDA: I love that for her. I mean, I've— I've done like a— like a milk bath bomb situation before. Lovely.
JULIA: Now, imagine that was the nectar of the gods or the ambrosia of gods.
AMANDA: I mean, my— my skin, it would be flawless.
JULIA: Yes. Well, consumption of ambrosia was reserved only for the divine. Though, it was occasionally given to heroes in order to cleanse them of, like, wrongdoings, or misdeeds, or what have you, just defilement in general. It's also referred to in the Odyssey as a kind of perfume, which I think is really interesting. So for example, Athena gives Menelaus ambrosia to put under his and his soldiers' noses while his men are disguised in seal skins.
AMANDA: Interesting.
JULIA: They're like, "This— it's so rancid, but then Athena gave us this really nice smelling perfume to put under our noses, and so we were able to wear them."
AMANDA: And like a tie back to, you know, where they came from, and like not animalistic, and maybe higher, you know, and human in some way.
JULIA: Exactly. So to call something ambrosial means that we as mortals are lucky to be tasting and/or smelling, and— which I think we should be using more to describe delicious foods. That's my hot take.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. Agree.
JULIA: Now, this next one is an interesting one because we got two definitions of the word chimeric. One is quite literal, and clearly deriving from Greek mythology. And then the other one is a little bit more of a stretch, but I think makes sense given the evolution of language, in general.
AMANDA: So this mostly reminds me of the— the phenomenon where a being may have two different kind of strands of DNA or patterns on their skin from my favorite show, The Zoo.
JULIA: Yeah. So that is specifically the use in genetics, which is kind of separate from the— the two definitions that I'm using here. But chimeric refers to something that is formed from various parts of different animals. But it's also defined as something that is hoped for but illusory, and therefore, impossible to achieve.
AMANDA: Oh, interesting. I haven't heard that one before.
JULIA: I really liked that as— as a— an interesting use of that. And it makes sense given kind of the way that like this is a thing from mythology that shouldn't exist, and therefore, it is something that is impossible to achieve.
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: So if you don't recognize the word Chimera or its context in Greek mythology, this is one of those classic Greek monsters. It's a creature that's comprised of a lion's body and the head, as well as the head of a goat coming out of its back, and with a tail that has a snake's head on the end of it, and she also breathes fire because why the hell not, right?
AMANDA: Why not? Why not?
JULIA: But in more modernity, Chimera has been used as a shorthand for basically any creature that has parts of various animals in weird and interesting ways combined. I know it's your favorite thing in the world, Amanda.
AMANDA: I think I learned about it from House M.D., which was a formative show for both of us when we were in middle and high school. So right on.
JULIA: The next one, I included this really kind of just for fun, because we all know about Hermes as a god already. But did you know that we get the word Hermetic as in something that is complete an airtight. Like a hermetic seal from the god Hermes.
AMANDA: No. No, I did not know that.
JULIA: I just found that out when I was researching this episode.
AMANDA: Incredibly good.
JULIA: Isn't that wild?
AMANDA: That's amazing. I mean, that makes total sense now that you say it, with like the— you know, the, like, completeness of the seal and, like, the perfection of the boundary.
JULIA: Yes. So, basically, this derives from the fact that not only is it airtight, but hermetic can also be used to describe something that is magical or secret, and— or a barrier that cannot be crossed.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So this has a lot to do with Hermes role as a psychopomp, which we've talked a lot about before. The way that he has this ability to pass between the veil that others cannot, which is creating these barriers that otherwise cannot be crossed. How cool is that?
AMANDA: Oh, my God. I had no idea that— the— I feel— it feels like I just took a shot of espresso. That's so exciting. Oh, my God. Yeah.
JULIA: I should've saved that one for last here, but oh, god, I was just so excited. I had to share it.
AMANDA: Yeah. I mean, only Hermes can cross that barrier if you have a hermetic seal on that.
JULIA: Exactly.
AMANDA: Damn, dude.
JULIA: Exactly. That's why it's— it's so airtight and useful.
AMANDA: Oh, language. I'm so lucky to love you.
JULIA: So next up is a word that is inspired by the god Prometheus, and is Promethean. Very similar to each other, but I always feel like this is a word that people don't know exactly what people are referring to when they talk about it. So—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —it is defined as being, quote, "characteristic of the demigod Prometheus," unhelpful in the definition.
AMANDA: It's super helpful. Thank you.
JULIA: Especially in being rebelliously creative and innovative, which I think is beautifully done. Love that.
AMANDA: That's true. Yeah, because I mean, Prometheus, like the one that gave fire to humans is my sort of post-it definition.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: So, yeah, being important, a vanguard, maybe reaching even above your station, that's kind of how I would read it.
JULIA: Exactly. So he, as you so eloquently put it, Amanda, stole fire from the gods against the gods' wishes, gave it to humans, only for him to be punished by Zeus. He's chained to a rock, and every day a giant eagle comes, and picks out his liver only for it to grow back in the middle of the night, and the process starts all over again.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But Prometheus risked it all to give humanity and innovation that greatly helped them. So I'm loving the word Promethean, and I think we should use it more often.
AMANDA: I truly thought you were gonna say risked it all for the biscuit, and—
JULIA: Risked it for the biscuit.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: In this case, he— hmm, trying to think of a fire pun, can't do it.
AMANDA: He toasted that biscuit too hard.
JULIA: He did, he did. He toasted that biscuit way too hard. Alright. And so the last one I have for this section is Delphic, which of course—
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: —comes from the Greek oracle of Delphi, but not necessarily is like a specific reference to that. It is defined as something that is, quote, "deliberately obscure or ambiguous."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And, listen, we've talked enough about Greek tragedies to know that the Greeks loved when a prophecy that the characters assume means one thing, but instead means something entirely else, or they would attempt to navigate around their prophecy only for it to happen exactly how it's foretold. So I think more things should be called Delphic. Amanda, I think business quarterly earnings reports or something should be called Delphic. That's what it is.
AMANDA: Julia, you're a mouth to the Oxford English Dictionary, because so many things are deliberately obscure, and I think Delphic is a word I'm going to try to take into more business emails this year.
JULIA: I think so. I think so. Next time, like you want to call out a company for being like, "Why are you being so like—"
AMANDA: Tell me what to do.
JULIA: "—working around— why are you trying to work around this? Just tell me what you need."
AMANDA: Delphic bitches, come on.
JULIA: Goddamn Delphic bitches. Well, we can rant a little bit more about Delphic bitches as soon as we grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
AMANDA: Hey, it's Amanda. Welcome here to the refill, our first of 2024, people. And I don't know, maybe it's because of the— the dumpster fire that last year was in many ways. But I am feeling really hopeful and excited about this new year. And God, I had so much fun in this episode. So I want to take not a traditional mid-roll, but a very special one to just talk with you guys for a second about what it's like to make this show, where the show is, what we're excited about, what we're going to do next. We have saved this episode as one with no sponsors. So there's no ads coming up, nothing for you to skip. Sit here and be with me for a minute. Let me take you all the way back. Julia and I started talking about making a podcast together in 2015. We are coming up on— yeah, 10 years of us planning and working on a podcast together, which is something. Well, that is so much time. We launched the show in 2016, January, and we're so excited that we are now coming up on our 8th anniversary of making this podcast together, entering our 9th year of podcasting. I can't believe it. I can't believe we're still doing it. This is the longest project I've ever been involved in. It's the basis of now my entire career. When we started the show, we're like, "God, we're so envious of people who can podcast full- time." And now, we do, and we are. And we have an editor, Bren. We have a researcher, Sally. We have our full-time jobs at Multitude making podcasts, cultivating community, and telling others how they can do the same. What a gift. Truly, honestly, the reason why we are still doing this, why we are still making the show, still surprising and delighting each other and coming up with games, and starting new mini-series, watch out next week is because of your support on Patreon. This is my one plug for this entire refill. We need your support on Patreon in order to keep doing the show. And we're so grateful to every single one of the 342 of you who have made space in your budget each month to support us on Patreon. We try not to, like, beat you over the head about it and how we, you know, need and want your support. But it's the truth of it. Like, we can only afford to pay our editor and our researcher, and to pay ourselves for our time making the show and to keep doing this. And hopefully, having a place in your lives, and your weeks, and your routines where you get to spend every Wednesday with us. Coming up on 400 episodes of this podcast because of your financial support. So if you can spare as little as four bucks a month to support us on Patreon, or hey, maybe you are— want to join the ranks of our supporting-producer and legend-level patrons who we will think by name at the end of this mid-roll, you can do that. You can also join annually. So if now in January, you're like, "Oh, thank goodness, I, you know, want ad-free Spirits for an entire year." I have great news for you, which is that you can pay once for an entire year of Patreon support and get a 10% discount, and that's like a whole month free, if my math is correct. And go ahead and join us at the $8-tier for that level for the entire year. The annual memberships are so useful for us because they show— they let us, like, know exactly what we're going to be making from the year. You have less, like, credit card annoyances when getting charged each month and you get a discount. So let's just go through the perks real quick. I know we talked about them like time, you know, after time, but I want to show you them directly. So first tier, patron tier, you get director's commentary for every single episode, plus our bonus Urban Legends episode each month. Another 30 to 45 minutes of Urban Legends per month for you, which we now have both video and audio versions, more on that in a minute. You can join at our regular's tier. You can get ad-free episodes every single week, plus recipe cards with alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks for every single episode, plus, the bonus Urban Legends, plus the director's commentary. Oh, my God, incredible. Just 8 bucks a month. That's like a very fancy coffee or two regular cold brews, you know, because that's the economy we live in now. You can join the Insider's Tier for 16 bucks a month. You can get video stuff, basically, is the point of the tier, and 10% off all our merch. So at the Insider's tier, you don't only get the bonus Urban Legends audio, you get bonus Urban Legends video, baby. You can see Julia and me gasping, and reacting, and making, you know, facial expressions to each other as we go through our bonus Urban Legends. It's so much fun. Plus, a monthly advice video podcast. If you want low to medium-stakes advice questions answered by Julia and me, you get to watch it in video form with captions, BTDubs. So much fun and 10% off all our merch. Then at the Hosts Tier, you also get a vibe check, tarot reading, and audio dispatch where every single equinox and solstice, Julia does a reading for you. The next tier up, you are a supporting producer-level patron, you get your name in every single episode. And then finally at the Legend Level, you get a personalized Tarot reading from Julia on each solstice and equinox, a personal reading just for you. They're beautiful. She writes out a whole thing, you get the photo of your spread, you get an audio update of Julia reading the reading for you. Incredible. And, of course, your name in every single episode. Oh, so much goodness. We are so excited for this next year. We have so much coming up. We have more that we are doing. We are going to do some live shows. Shh, don't tell anybody. We're going to make cool merch. We're gonna have more guests and do cooler, funner, better, bigger things than ever, and it is only because we get to make this our jobs via your support on Patreon. So if you thought about it, if you, you know, came into a little bit of money over the holidays, if you are done buying your presents for a while, or if you want to encourage somebody to get you a belated present and buy you a year of Patreon support, now is a great time to do it at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And listen, if you can't afford to support us with money, I totally get it. You're totally fine. You've absolutely nothing to worry about or apologize about. Telling a friend about the show is just as valuable. So thank you all. And specifically, finally, thank you to our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. And our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. Finally, y'all I have been enjoying so very much the new dice that I got as a Hanukkah present, because we are doing something very special and new over on Join the Party. And that is our Multitude recommendation for the week. Of course, an actual play podcast with tangible worlds, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators that make each other laugh every week. You are going to want to stay tuned for what we have coming up in January. Oh, we've worked on it for months. I am so, so excited. So listen, hop into our current campaign. Campaign Three, a pirate story set in a world of plant and bug folk. You are gonna want to hear the characters Julia and I play, it is so much fun. My present from Julia for Christmas was based on my Join the Party character, and he's a sweet— sweet lad. So come on over, listen to the show, jointhepartypod.com or search for Join the Party in your podcast app. Alright, folks, we love you. Thank you. Let's get back to the show.
[theme]
AMANDA: Now, Julia, normally, you bring the cocktail recommendation for each episode, but may I suggest something this week?
JULIA: Of course.
AMANDA: I'm gonna suggest a beer shot combo. Depending on your city, this may have a cute name, like a city-wide. But the reason why is because learning about language is a shot and a chaser. Learning about language is that initial jolt of adrenaline, and we're learning that the word has an interesting meaning, and then the chaser of delving even deeper into it and understanding the— the hidden, and obscured, and longer lasting 4% ABV, light beer, kind of meaning here as that shot works its way down your tummy.
JULIA: Your Tecate, your Modelo, your Miller High Life.
AMANDA: Yeah. Always, always.
JULIA: A friend of mine is a big fan of Miller High Life, and recently posted a vid— posted a photo on Instagram, being like, "They wouldn't call it the champagne of beers if it was a bad beer." And I'm like you're not wrong.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Like Miller High Life are not great beers, but like they're not bad.
AMANDA: They're perfect for their purpose. And especially when we can get them in the glass bottles—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —Eric and I will— will drink that champagne of beer as our go-to at any time.
JULIA: Well, while we take our shot and then sip on our champagne of beers, Amanda, for this back half of the episode, I have a list of characters from Greek mythology that I think should have modern expressions or words based off of them. So what I want us to do is together for this section, I am going to name a Greek figure, remind you what their main story is or what they're known for. And then you and I together are going to come up with either a word or a phrase that we can start using in real life in reference to that. So for example—
AMANDA: Hmm. So good.
JULIA: —the one that I want to start us out with is one that is pretty well-known, and people make reference to it, but I want like a word for it, right?
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Instead of like the shorthand of it, and that is Icarus.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So rather than calling someone an Icarus or using the phrase, flying too close to the sun, I think we should come up with something like Icarian task or something to that effect, and we'll define it, and give an example of how to use it in a sentence.
AMANDA: I love it. Do you want to start with Icarus himself?
JULIA: Yes. So for people who need a refresher on the details of Icarus, he was the son—
AMANDA: Certainly not me. JK, I do.
JULIA: He was the son of the inventor Daedelus who was the one who built the labyrinth that housed the Minotaur. Now, after Theseus managed to escape the labyrinth, King Minos accused Daedalus of helping him escape, and so trapped him and Icarus, his son, in this tall tower. Now, Daedalus is being the incredible inventor that he was, created these wings that were made out of feathers, blankets, and beeswax.
AMANDA: You use what you can.
JULIA: Now, before they flew out of the tower, Daedalus warned his son not to fly too high or too low, because if he flew too low, the sea would soak the wings and would cause him to sink. If he flew too high, the sun would melt the wings. Icarus, of course, in the classic hubris fashion, flies too close the sun, his wings melt, and he falls into the sea, and drowns. Now, Amanda—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —how can we create a word for Icarus, or an Icarian task, or something to that effect to describe what the whole vibe of him is?
AMANDA: I really like from learning the— the origin of this word, I'm refreshing myself, that it's not just going too high close to the sun, but also going too close to the ground.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Like it's not— I think people say fly too close to the sun, and what they mean is it was too ambitious.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Or reach too high. But it— it's not about that. There's also a lower limit. Like, it—it's about kind of sticking close and sticking within a mean, and a, you know, well, kind of carved out pathway, and not deviating too far to either side.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And so that's something I want to capture in—in our word choice here. I'm not sure if, like, an adverb or a verb would be the best thing, but that's the meaning that I want to focus on.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. I think that something that is Icarian is something that requires a certain level of— hmm, what's the word that I'm looking for? Moderation.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: It's a task that requires you to not be too ambitious, but also not like postpone it or not put as much effort into it as you can. It's a real like bal— it's a work-life balance situation.
AMANDA: Yes. Or, Julia, like the game in Mario Party 3 where we have to walk along the very skinny route down the curvy canyon. And if you go too slow, you'll lose. If you go too fast, you'll fall.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Just like that.
JULIA: Yes, I think it's something—
AMANDA: Icarian.
JULIA: —that it's like you need to find the balance in your life in order to achieve it and a lot—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And like people before you have failed at that task, so you understand the— the risk and reward of facing it yourself.
AMANDA: Exactly. And just kind of like trying to blast through it and get it over with, that's not going to help to your point, putting it off so long, because you want to do it perfectly, is also not going to help. So I mean, for me, in a lot of areas of my life, you know, sending emails, or signing up for things, or planning things, or trying stuff, I need to take a more Icarian approach or evolve the fate of Icarus. But my— my Icarian path, perhaps, what lays before me is a version that is neither too extreme, nor too low.
JULIA: I really liked that. I also think that maybe we could use it as a phrase for someone who tends to go to one extreme or another, if we want to more— go more like derogatory as a thing.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: You could be like, "Yeah, there's this person who either flies too high or too low and never has moderation in their life."
AMANDA: Yeah. I think you want to avoid— you want to avoid the Icarian outcome.
JULIA: Exactly.
AMANDA: You want to, like, take some kind of you, know, moderate path and, you know, go for it with confidence, but not too much.
JULIA: I like that. I like that a lot. Use it, gavel, gavel. [Hitting Gavel]
AMANDA: Yay. I like it.
JULIA: It's in the books. The next one that I want to do is Cassandra. Now, people do refer to someone as a Cassandra in— in life, meaning that they are someone who either like prophesizes doom or disaster, or it's just like shorthand for someone who's a pessimist, and that does not do Cassandra justice.
AMANDA: Oh, interesting.
JULIA: So I am going to ask that we reinvent it a little.
AMANDA: I—I guess I just thought it was un-specifically somebody who sort of does future foretelling in some way, but remind us why she's not just a doomsayer.
JULIA: Yes. So Cassandra was a priestess of Apollo and a Trojan princess. Apollo gave her the gift of prophecy in an effort to woo her, but Cassandra did not return his affections. And this, of course, enraged Apollo because he hates being told no, in general.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But because the gift was already given, he couldn't take it back. So what he did instead was he added a curse to his gift, that despite the fact that she would always be able to give true prophecies that were fated to happen, no one would ever believe them. And as such, the people viewed her as a liar or as someone who was mad, to the point where her father even locked her up.
AMANDA: Hmm. So I think this would be a great fit for someone who is ahead of their time, who is prescient, who can see the future and proclaim it. A James Baldwin, Marsha P. Johnson. You know, somebody who is telling us what should happen and is derided, and disbelieved, and suffers because of that in their time.
JULIA: Yes. I think that's 100% on point. I also think that like a Cassandran task is like trying to convince people of something that you know they're not going to listen to you about.
AMANDA: Yeah. A necessary truth that people are going to be upset to hear, perhaps.
JULIA: Yes. And I think that there are a lot of people, and a lot of instances and circumstances in which that would be the truth and the fact.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. And I mean, I think that's kind of cut and dry. Like, I— I think that's perfect.
JULIA: I also think it could be a really fun shorthand for being mansplained to, where it's like, "I know what I'm talking about. Why won't you believe that I know what I'm talking about?" And they're like, "No, no, no. You don't know a thing. That can't be true."
AMANDA: They're like, "Not only do I know what I'm talking about, I am Cassandra, and I'm telling you that cryptocurrency is never coming back."
JULIA: Gosh, your— your word to the gods' ears, you know?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Alright. So the next one that I want to do is, as I mentioned, in our Rainbow episode, I'm a big fan of the goddess, Iris. And obviously, we have like a flower that comes from her, which kind of reflects her wide variety of colors and association with the rainbow. And also the iris of the eye because of the many colors that kind of make up that eye part. But—
AMANDA: Ooh, I didn't put that together.
JULIA: Isn't that cool? I love that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: It just— they kind of just took the Greek word for rainbow, which is Iris and then they were like, "Yeah, it's like a rainbow of colors." I don't know.
AMANDA: Alright, alright.
JULIA: But listen, Iris, the goddess did a lot more things than just being a rainbow girly. She was the goddess of, like, communication and messages and new endeavors. She was the connection between the heavens and the Earth. She is the goddess that aids in the fulfillment of prayers from mortals, which sometimes she would help fulfill herself. Sometimes it was just a matter of her bringing the prayers to the attention of the right god and goddess. And I want to word for her that isn't my eyeball or a pretty flower.
AMANDA: I think that Iris— I'm— I'm really being drawn to communication in new endeavors here.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: I think like maybe we're getting toward a multimedia, you know, digital media creator. Maybe like making good use, like when somebody makes really good use of a new tool, who is like communicating in a really clear way, is really a like vanguard of, you know, building community and talking to them well, and forging new paths when it comes to media, especially enabling communication between like— I'm sure you follow some of these, like, creators who, you know, do incredible AMAS, right? Who like answer lots of questions, who kind of demystify the process behind what it is that they do. I think that should be Irisian.
JULIA: Ooh, I like that a lot. Amanda, I want to yes and yours as well.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: And I think it's a person that is capable of all of those things, but is underappreciated by those above them in the hierarchy of, like, a workplace office or something like that.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: Like I think a incredible intern who should not be an intern anymore, but has not been given the opportunity to move up is someone who is Irisian.
AMANDA: Or almost every office manager, I assure you. Almost every—
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: —office manager is essentially like the COO of the company they work at, and I see you and so does Iris.
JULIA: Yes. And so I love that. I think that's great. So you might remember our next figure Caeneus from our Genderfuck the Gods episode. We've mentioned him many, many times. But Caeneus was someone who was born as a woman, but was transformed into a man by Poseidon after he assaulted her. And now, Poseidon granted her one wish after the fact, and she asked to be transformed into a man whose skin could never be penetrated. Now, Caeneus as a man became one of the Argonauts. He went on many adventures. He had this very heroic image. He was one of the— one of the greats. And in the Argonautica, it was said that, quote, "they could neither force him to yield, nor yet dispatch him, but unbowed, unbroken." Which I really like.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Now, in the end, he ends up dying after being crushed by pine trees by a group of centaurs that he's fighting. But I really like the end of Ovid's version of the tale, which is he flies out from beneath the tree trunks, having been transformed into a golden bird. What word do we want to come up with for this trans icon?
AMANDA: Hmm. I mean, I think this has to be somebody whose like dignity and purpose and motivation is uncorruptible and unassailable. And somebody who, you know, like a sapling, snaps back up after being pushed over time and time again.
JULIA: Yes. I think that's really good. The idea of strengthened adversity is a really cool one, I really like. Especially in— because of, like, Caeneus is like kind of trans identity even in Greek mythology, I think, like, against particularly like transphobia, or homophobia, or some sort of like—
AMANDA: Gender violence.
JULIA: —pushback from society. Yes, gender violence, in general. I think he's a great example as a whole, but I think that— using that word in particular really signifies his strength as a character.
AMANDA: No one is better at naming themselves and others than trans people. So I highly recommend transmasc folks in particular out there, consider Caeneus, good— good middle name.
JULIA: It's spelled fun, too.
AMANDA: Call yourself Cae, Cay. Love it.
JULIA: Alright. So this next goddess is one that often gets overshadowed by her much more notable children, but Leto is the goddess of childhood and the mother of Apollo and Artemis. So her most famous story is, of course, her pregnancy and birth of the twin gods. Specifically, Hera, in her typical jealous self, ordered every spit of land to shun the pregnant woman and deny her a place to give birth.
AMANDA: Why is this always happening to the mothers of historical figures that we hold up as leaders?
JULIA: Hmm, I don't know.
AMANDA: Hospitality? Is it like just particularly rude for a pregnant person who needs to sit, probably?
JULIA: Yeah. I think, in general, like we're just very mean to pregnant women in most of mythology.
AMANDA: Yeah, fair.
JULIA: So she is also delayed, or in some stories, her labor is extended because Hera will not allow the goddess of childbirth to visit her, which makes Leto suffer for nine days and nine nights before she's able to deliver her children.
AMANDA: I have not given birth, but I'm sure anyone who has out there is like— don't like that.
JULIA: Please don't do that. Eventually, however, the floating island of Delos, not joined to the mainland or to the sea floor, offers Leto a place to give birth.
AMANDA: Alright. So Julia, in this, I am hearing themes of transience, of not having a place to go, of kind of wandering, but ultimately finding a home among other wanderers. I love and remember from, you know, talking about Delos. Like, it is, you know, a floating island, it's not joined to anywhere else. It can kind of show up where people need, and I think there are a lot of Leto figures around, and people who have maybe Leto-ish journeys. I'll think about the word form.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —that can involve both of the pain and the joy of being without home, being transient, you know, being between places, being a wanderer, but also the— the joy and value of the community you find among other wanderers, other Letos.
JULIA: I think there's also something to be said about, like, having to hold out strength until someone helps you.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And like having the strength to hold on until a hand is offered to you.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: You know what I mean?
AMANDA: That's really good.
JULIA: I think that's a good, like, kind of inspiration for this one. For sure.
AMANDA: My brain keeps saying lettuce, but there's gotta be a way to turn Leto into a word.
JULIA: Uh-oh. Letosian maybe?
AMANDA: Also sounds like a lettuce.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Literally, my brain just keeps supplying me with lettuce. Okay, hang on. How about Letian?
JULIA: Ooh, I like that. I'm into it.
AMANDA: A Letian journey, a Letian person.
JULIA: Letian strength.
AMANDA: Hmm. Okay, this is great.
JULIA: Now, my girl Atalanta, you might remember, was a wild child.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: She modeled herself after Artemis. She was known as a swift-footed virgin who refuse to marry or take any man as a partner.
AMANDA: An absolute babe.
JULIA: Yeah. She insisted on living in the wilderness. She was an incredible hunter. She went on many adventures, including traveling with the Argonauts, hunting the Calydonian boar, and also having the distinction of drawing the first blood of the boar, which is really impressive. However, when Atalanta was younger, she visited an Oracle who told her that if she was to marry, it would be her doom.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: But because she made a name for herself out on her many adventures, her father came and found her, and insisted that she marry, so she agreed.
AMANDA: Oh, my god. Classic, classic absent father. The minute you make some money, the minute you make a headline, the minute you can be useful.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. We've all heard those Hollywood stories before.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So she agrees, but only if each suitor has to compete against her in a foot race, which she knows she will always win because she's like, "I'm the fastest person alive besides the gods." So if they lose, they'll be killed. But if they won, they would have her hand. Now, many people attempted to win her hand, but were killed. However, the hero, Hippomenes, who fell in love with Atalanta as soon as he saw her, asked Aphrodite for her assistance. And the goddess gave him these irresistible golden apples. And as the race started, Hippomenes would toss them in front of Atalanta, so she had to stop and pick them up, which allowed Hippomenes to win and therefore, married her. The problem is Hippomenes forgot to give proper thanks to Aphrodite for her help.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And the goddess kind of threw like an elaborate thing. She like— they're— they were in a sacred grove, and she, like, basically used her powers to make them have sex. And then whoever's sacred grove, I think it was Artemis' sacred grove. She got real pissed and so she turned them both into lions.
AMANDA: Oh, okay. I mean, there's worse— there's worse fates.
JULIA: Yeah. So I think that something that is Atalantean, is something or someone that is free spirited to the point where it aggravates others.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And, like, it's someone who is constantly— people are attempting to rein in, but this person refuses to, or finds their own way around the societal expectations that are put upon them.
AMANDA: I think it's really good, and identify something that I think is important to call out, which is like, you know, shining your light. People just don't always say like, "Good for you. Love you, bestie. Live your truth." Like they— you know, they feel jealous, insecure, like they want to rein you in, like you're pushing boundaries. I think that's important to name.
JULIA: I think so. And I— I love that for her, you know? I— I wish she hadn't— you know, in terms of things that happened to characters in Greek mythology and then tragedies in general, being turned into a lion isn't the worst thing in the world that can happen to you. So like, it's not a happy ending, but it's not the worst ending, either.
AMANDA: On the scale of things, this is— this has gone for like an Icarian meddle, you know?
JULIA: Yes. Solidly Icarian meddle. So lastly, I want to create something for Penelope.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: My girl, Penelope, was the wife of Odysseus. And when he didn't return from the Trojan War for a long time, like 20 years, many suitors came to the kingdom to marry her and tried to take the throne, like literally over a 100. I think the one official number is 108.
AMANDA: There was like a cottage industry of people catering to the suitors that came for Penelope's hand, you know?
JULIA: Exactly. And Penelope is married, has no interest in marrying another man. And is a wily one, just like her husband. So she devised a bunch of different ways to make sure that she would get away with not marrying any of these suitors in the hopes that, like, her husband would return without being like straight up like, "Oh, I will never marry again." Because she doesn't have that luxury. So one of these is my— my personal favorite, is the fact that she said that she was weaving a burial shroud for Odysseus' father, and promised that once it was done, she would marry one of the men. So she would spend her whole day weaving on this tapestry. And then at night, she would undo whatever process she made weaving during the day, which I think is—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —so smart. And she does this for three years. She manages to get away with that for three years until one of her servants sees what she's doing and, like, tells one of the suitors like, "Hey, this is kind of fucked up."
AMANDA: An incredible amount of patience and cunning.
JULIA: Yes. So she's constantly kind of like making these promises to her suitors and that, like, you know, there are promises, but there are always ways that she can delay them even further. So the final one that she ends up doing, which she doesn't know, but her husband in disguise is taking part of, is to string his bow and arrow and to shoot an arrow through 12 axe heads in order to win her hand. Which, of course, she poses knowing that no one else, but Odysseus would be able to do that, which he—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —eventually does, proving that he is Odysseus, and then also slaughters all of the suitors.
AMANDA: Sure. Okay.
JULIA: So do we have a good word for Penelope and her like wily nature and her—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —her dedication to her marriage?
AMANDA: The— the part that's really standing out to me is what you said. She doesn't have the luxury of declaring she's not going to marry.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: That kind of wasn't up to her. And, you know, in a patriarchal society with— with her husband absent, she sort of had to, like, use the tactics available to her to make it through. And it's a situation that I think a lot of people will really relate to. So I would put forward the Penelopiad as a length of time or a series of things that you have to do to survive in the situation you're in. And hopefully, this doesn't last forever. Maybe you are being creative, maybe you are being cunning, maybe you're roping in allies, but the Penelopiad is— you might feel like you're not making progress. In fact, you might be, you know, by definition, by design, staying kind of stagnant, but maybe you're saving money, you're saving resources. You're— you know, biding your time until you can burst forth into your new phase. And I think that's not stagnant at all. I think that's a very deliberate strategy, and I think Penelope is a really good figure to inspire you in that moment.
JULIA: I really like that, Amanda. My brain was kind of filling in this idea of like— you know, in situations where— I think of, like, bartenders, but specifically like women bartenders, right? Where they are, like, put into situations where, inevitably, people are going to, like, flirt with them, or, like, try to get their numbers, or any sort of thing like that. And having to go through the process of being like, "I'm married. No, my husband isn't here. No, I'm not gonna, like, show you my ring or whatever. Like, that shouldn't matter. If I tell you no, like we shouldn't be having this conversation anymore. And I think that—
AMANDA: But you're at work, but there's tips. There's a lot of reasons why you can't be so straightforward.
JULIA: Yes. And so I think that— that kind of embodies Penelope in the modern day for me. Like, if we were going to turn this into like a real modernity thing—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —I think there's a certain, like, toxic masculinity and, like, heteronormcy that happens there. Where, like, a lot of people in relationships have to be like, "No, actually, I really don't want you flirting with me because I'm in a committed relationship, and you just cannot, like, see that relationship right in front of you."
AMANDA: I think those are both really good uses, so maybe we— maybe we let— let the public decide.
JULIA: We let the people decide.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, thank you so much for playing this little game with me and we get to explore, like, some fun ones, some fun phrases that are used, you know, not on a daily basis, but like, you know, in society.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And the fact that we got to come up with our own, that was so delightful.
AMANDA: Well, Julia, I know that you had so many great ideas for words that we could begin to harness the mythological potential of, that there are some on the cutting room floor. What if we save that for this month's Patreon bonus episode?
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: We can do a couple of these in between as interstitial, you know, little jawns in between our bonus Urban Legends.
JULIA: I love that. Let's do it.
AMANDA: Let's do it. patreon.com/spiritspodcast.
JULIA: Sign up today. And next time you are going through a Penelopiad yourself, dear conspirator, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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