Episode 360: Black Cats
/October might be newly over, but we’re keeping the spooky vibes going by talking about black cats! We talk about cat worship, how cats went from lucky to unlucky, and how Pope Gregory and some guy named Conrad are to blame!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of animal death, colonialism, death, misogyny, mourning, religious persecution, plague/illness, torture, and sex, drowning.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Spider-Man 2
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is an episode all about the feline friends, Julia. The— the newest neighbor that I have here in my new apartment, who normally hangs out on other fire escapes, but I am trying to tempt her with some cat grass, black cats.
JULIA: Amanda, I was literally going to start this episode by asking, if you had any updates via the black cat that you had told me about recently? Have you seen them lately? Do you have a name that you're calling them yet? What's going on?
AMANDA: So I've decided that she has feminine energy.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: Our neighborhood is filled with stray cats, it's actually kind of a problem. There are a lot of rescue organizations taking care of them, spaying, neutering, and feeding, and rehoming them.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But this black cat lives on my neighbor's fire escape, which I can see from my living room.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And now, there is a fire escape outside my room, and so I am really hoping that by putting out some cat grass, I have some mums there for the bees, and some cat grass for the cat. I'm hoping that she is tempted over. The update, Julia, is New York City had some historic flooding a couple months ago—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —as of when this episode is coming out for me right now, it was very recently. And I was going around the apartment, checking all the windows, because there were lots of leaks—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —that morning of the terrible flood when we got eight inches of rain. I looked across the street and there she was, sitting in the window of a half-constructed building, dry and warm. JULIA: Good for her.
AMANDA: Looking at me.
JULIA: I'm so happy for her.
AMANDA: I know, she's so smart. And so I love that whenever that condo building is finished, I will know that a black cat once weathered out a historic flooding on the third floor. She made it all the way up. But, yeah, we— I don't have a name yet. I feel like maybe I get to name her when she kind of graces my fire escape with her presence.
JULIA: Okay. All right. But we'll— we'll come up with that eventually.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: I keep thinking— because the first one that jumped to my head at least, the fact that you have the cat grass next to the— the mums, naming her Chrysanthemum.
AMANDA: That'd be really good. I like that a lot.
JULIA: Alright.
AMANDA: Alright. Chrysanthemum will be our working title.
JULIA: Yes. I love it. But, Amanda, we just got off of Halloween if you're listening to this episode when it came out. But for me, creepy season kind of goes well into November, Like, I think until the week of Thanksgiving, I am still vibing on spooky season. It is just still warm enough for me to go on hikes and stuff. The trees are either in the process of shedding all their leaves, or just getting to that point where they're, like, spooky skeleton trees, which I'm a big fan of, personally, especially when going on hikes and especially, like, you know, when the sun is just beginning to set and all you see are the— the spooky branches making skeletons in the sky.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or like me, you get to walk around New York City and peep other people's apartments that are normally shaded by trees.
JULIA: That is true. That is one of the good parts about fall and winter in the city. You can just, like, look into other people's apartments and be like, "What— what are you doing—"
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: "—decor-wise in there? You good? How much are you paying for that apartment?"
AMANDA: "Damn. You got a backyard. Look at that chandelier. My God."
JULIA: And— but also, not only in October do we have Halloween, we also had a bunch of other, like, cool, spooky things that happened in October. We had a lunar eclipse, we had a solar eclipse. And, of course, we also, Amanda, had a Friday, the 13th in October. Amazing.
AMANDA: That's— that's, like, fully loaded. That's like when you go to that restaurant, order a Grand Slam. Whatever that restaurant is.
JULIA: Denny's? I think that's Denny's, right?
AMANDA: That's the one.
JULIA: Yeah. Okay, cool. Cool, cool, cool. It is a Grand Slam. So I was thinking about symbols of Friday, the 13th that people consider unlucky. And then, Amanda, I remembered your sweet— your sweet, new neighbor, your sweet, black cat.
AMANDA: Chrysanthemum.
JULIA: I love her.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And so I know that many people believe strongly— though, I do think that— that it's kind of starting to come back around as not being as prominent of a superstition. But a lot of people believe that black cats are considered unlucky. And, Amanda, do you think that has always been the case?
AMANDA: That's a great question. I kind of assumed because of some kind of, like, association with witch's familiars. Yes, but I'm excited to learn.
JULIA: Amanda, I will tell you that while you are correct that black cats are oftentimes associated with witch's familiars, before that, we fucking love cats.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: A lot of cultures just really loved cats, and there's very logical reasons behind why that is the case. But today, I want to talk about the origins of the cat in mythology, black cats in particular around the world, and where and when that representation of unlucky in our modern Western understanding occurred. So let's get started first by heading to, ba, ba, ba, ba, Ancient Egypt.
AMANDA: Now, these folks, they love cats. That's one thing I know.
JULIA: Yes. I think if anyone knows even a little bit about Egyptian mythology, they realize how important cats are to both the religious and social web that made up Egyptian culture and life. So there are multiple deities that are either depicted with cat-like features or are associated with cats in their worship. So, Bastet, Sekhmet, Mafdet, and Maut are all either cat-head goddesses in the way that, like, Egyptian deities are often represented, as like being part-human, part-animal, or are just like fully depicted as cats. Now, Mafdet is, according to a lot of scholars, the first of these gods to be associated with cats. And she was most frequently portrayed as a protector of pharaohs against evil, as well as snakes and scorpions.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, did cats eat those creatures?
JULIA: Now, Amanda, you would be exactly right that cats did eat those creatures. So part of this representation had to do with the fact that since the First Dynasty of Egypt, cats were revered for killing snakes in the pharaohs' chambers. They're like, "We have to have a cat around because the cat will make sure that the pharaoh does not get bitten by a poisonous snake in his sleep."
AMANDA: That would be really bad for lots of reasons.
JULIA: Scorpions, the cats go for them. They go for the poisonous snakes. And cats are just like there, being protectors of the pharaohs since the First Dynasty.
AMANDA: Incredible. I'm sure we— we will sing cats virtues at many points during this episode, but gotta love those baby cheetahs, just being like, "Yeah, I can take on a snake."
JULIA: Easy-peasy. Love that for them. So after Mafdet was Bastet who was most likely the next goddess to be associated with cats, with her first references being found in the Second Dynasty. At first, Bastet was represented as a lioness rather than kind of the domestic house cat that we know today. But when the worship of Sekhmet began to arise, who also had ties to lions, as we talked about in previous episodes about Sekhmet. Sekhmet became associated with this kind of powerful protector warrior aspect, whereas Bastet became associated more with the gentler persona with her portrayal as a domestic house cat.
AMANDA: It's important, you gotta have both.
JULIA: You gotta have both. So while the worship of cats in deity form was something that was early on in Ancient Egyptian culture, it wasn't until the 22nd Dynasty that domestic cats themselves started to become worshipped. So they were eventually even considered sacred. And when a domestic cat died, they would be embalmed, coffined, and buried in cemetery specifically for cats.
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: So, like, think of the Pet Cemetery, but it's just cats.
AMANDA: Oh, damn.
JULIA: I love that. It's so sweet. We take care of them even after death.
AMANDA: I've definitely seen images of mummified cats, or at least preserved cats. I've seen people feel really— really close to their pets. And so it makes a lot of sense to me that they would eventually start associating these features from gods with the everyday instantiations of those gods, perhaps on Earth.
JULIA: Yes. And we have a lot of great examples of pharaohs taking their cats with them to the grave. We have a lot of, like, representation, again, of these cat cemeteries, which are super, really interesting because like these cat cemeteries were used for several centuries. And the archaeological sites that were on Earth contained many, many cat mummies and statue representations, which is, like, unfortunately, why you'll see a lot of them in various museums across the world—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —because they were probably taken, and stolen, and brought away from their— their home cultures. But that is why you will see a lot of, like, mummified cats in museums across the world, and not just in Egypt.
AMANDA: I know we have a lot of scientists among the audience. I wonder if there are any, like, geneticists or researchers, biologists, for whom that's like a very useful study as to, like, how cats genomes have changed over the last, you know, X thousands of years.
JULIA: Oh, that's very interesting. I had not thought of that as, like, a thing that cats genomes would have changed over thousands of years, but that makes a lot of sense now that you say it.
AMANDA: Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. But having a ton of, like, very well-preserved examples of cats from a given, you know, geographical region must be really helpful. Julia, I have kind of a— a silly question.
JULIA: Go.
AMANDA: Were cats just like all over the place? Did people, like, bring them from somewhere? Were cats just, like, local to Egypt?
JULIA: Now, cats were, I think, domesticated from wild cats in the Northern African region. There are several other, like, archeological sites where not only did they find domestic cats, but they also found some, like, versions of wild cats that were probably domesticated by Egyptians and then brought into the household. And that's a really interesting question that leads into the segue for the next thing I was gonna say, which is—
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah.
JULIA: —archaeologists, also based on the vastness of these cat cemeteries, have determined that the worship of cats was extremely important to the economy of Ancient Egypt. Like not only—
AMANDA: Whoa.
JULIA: —do they need supplies for the embalming of these cats, but also supplies for food for both living and dead cats. And a very, very, vast breeding trade because everyone wanted a cat.
AMANDA: Wow. Were there cat toys? Were the— I mean, I guess you don't really need sand for litterboxes, I— I suppose.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But, oh, my God, yeah, of course, there must be an industry all about, you know, the— the very finest fish for your cat or whatever?
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Yeah, no, I imagine like— and especially because— as we've talked about before on the show, like Underworld and afterlife in Egyptian mythology and Egyptian culture, you would have to keep leaving food offerings, because the dead still needed to eat.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So not only you're leaving stuff for like, you know, your family members, you're also leaving them for the family cat as well.
AMANDA: Damn. I mean, that makes all the sense in the world.
JULIA: Yeah, of course. And it was really interesting because during this period, domestic cats were considered this kind of living incarnation of Bastet as we talked about. And it was considered an extremely serious crime to kill a cat to the point where, like, during the Ptolemaic Kingdom, which is the period right before Egypt being conquered and then brought into the Roman Empire. A group of outraged Egyptians killed a Roman man who had been accused of killing a cat.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: Like, they angry mobbed him.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: So, eventually, the worship of cats did decrease in Egypt when it became a Roman province. Thanks, Octavian, I guess. But it wasn't until the 4th and 5th centuries CE that the Roman emperors began to crack down on what we would, you know, now refer to as pagan worship in Egypt. And while the respect for cats outlasted the destruction of their temples, worship certainly is not what it used to be in terms of Egypt and the worship of cats.
AMANDA: I wonder if there was a— a sort of original dog versus cat person feud as—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —Rome, the, you know, child of Romulus and Remus suckled by—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —wolves, sort of found themselves in opposition and attempting to conquer and sort of culturally homogenized the kingdom of cats.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, that actually brings up a great point as we go over the Mediterranean, and we talk about what cat worship looked like in Greece and Rome. And the answer is, there wasn't a lot of it.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: You would be pleasantly surprised, but there— there was not a lot of it. So cats were first introduced to Southern Italy and Greece during the 5fth Century BC by the Phoenicians. But the thing is, domestic cats were extremely rare, or like particularly rare. So for example, when the historian Herodotus visited Egypt for the first time, he was in literally awe by the amount of domestic cats, because he had only seen feral ones in Greece.
AMANDA: I was gonna say, like, can you imagine it never having seen a cat and then seeing a cat?
JULIA: Or, like, having, like, only seen cats being, like, feral colonies, like outside your cities and stuff like that.
AMANDA: Like— like a fox for us now.
JULIA: Exactly.
AMANDA: Like, I— I know foxes are very common in other places. For us, in New York City, you know, the northeast, like you might glimpse them once in a while. I've seen probably like four or five foxes in my life. And every time I'm like, "Oh, look at that creature over there. Wow."
JULIA: It's a fox of, like, myth—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —and legend, you know.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: No, that's exactly right. So what's interesting is later, when the Greeks kind of started to adopt different ancient Egyptian policies, and we talked about this in the past. There's a lot of synchronization that occurred between Ancient Greece and the Ancient Egyptians. And so the Greeks began to kind of syncretized Artemis with Bastet, which kind of gave Artemis this vague association with cats. And similarly, because Hecate is associated with Artemis, or is like sometimes portrayed as a different aspect of Artemis. Hecate might have also been associated with cats. I found a lot of that online, but I couldn't find a real, like, source to it. And then as I was doing a little more research into Hecate and, like cats, Amanda, there might have been, like, a misunderstanding or a mistranslation error, because—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —Hecate in Ancient Greece was associated with polecats a.k.a. weasels—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —and ferrets. Which—
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: —Amanda, I was shocked to find out, where more often kept as pets in the Ancient Greek world and used for pest control instead of domesticated cats.
AMANDA: I mean, that makes sense in terms of the— you know, they go after, you know, I'm sure, mice and— and all the sorts of creatures that Greeks didn't want in their homes. But that is incredibly funny. And I'm sure— like I— in the back of my mind, I was sort of like, "Oh, yeah. Hecate, witches, black cats, Macbeth." Like, you know, it's— it's just sort of— such a cultural symbol to me now that it would never occur to me that that wasn't always the case.
JULIA: Yes. I would say that it is most likely that modern worship of Hecate now like Wiccan culture, or like just in general modern worship of the goddess has her more associated with cat. But if we're talking about ancient Greek practices, Hecate and cats, the— the— it doesn't quite line up with, like, the timeline of the— the rest of the worship that we often talk about here on the show.
AMANDA: Listen, I know, again, we have some Hecate worshipers and— and Wiccans in the audience. If— if you want to fold in, having or at least appreciating some adorable ferrets and weasels in your practice, all for it. I think that's so cute. And I love the idea of a modern Wiccan hanging out with their ferrets and worshipping Hecate.
JULIA: I just also love the idea that the ancient Greeks were like, "Yeah, you know what's like a really stealthy animal that's going to catch a lot of, like, mice and rats and other pests? This ridiculous-looking creature." Ferrets are so funny-looking.
AMANDA: They're so funny-looking. But that's what they're for. They're good at that.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: They can be vicious. They got little— little teeth and claws.
JULIA: Yeah. So eventually, Amanda, with their little teeth and claws, in ancient Rome cats kind of replaced ferrets and weasels as mousers and household pets, because as the source that I talked about, or read in the— about this said, "They were much more pleasant than ferrets. Much more pleasant to have in the household than ferrets."
AMANDA: Here's the thing, ferrets bad, cats sometimes cute.
JULIA: Ferrets can be cute, but they are, like, very nippy, and they like to scamper, you know? Cats have their problems, too. Cats just love knockin' shit down and whatnot. Like, I'm not going to say—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —like, "Hey, you know, cats are perfect angels that have never hurt anyone in their lives, but you know?
AMANDA: Yeah. I feel like ferrets also were kind of more, like, agile and quicker.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And I— I know— at least modern house cats, you know, a lot of them like to laze around a lot of the day, so that— that's convenient in a pet.
JULIA: That is true. So we are very slowly starting to get a little closer to the change from a good omen to a bad omen when it comes to black cats. But we have, like, a few other places to talk about in terms of cat. So for example, let's switch over to Japan really quickly to talk about their folklore and superstitions about cats. Because Japan has many supernatural depictions of cats. My personal favorite is probably one that is recognizable even in the West here, which is the maneki-neko, which you might know as either the beckoning cat or as we often refer to them in English, the good luck cat.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Like, if you go into a Japanese restaurant, and you see that waving cat with the little coin, and he's got his little hand going like that, that is the maneki-neko.
AMANDA: Yeah, I sort of always associated that with general kawaii-ness—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —which, you know, again, is not quite the same. Obviously, there's Hello Kitty, all— all kinds of cat imagery, but yeah, I see these, like, all the time.
JULIA: Yeah. So, apparently, the story behind them goes that once there was this Japanese landlord who was standing on the street when he saw a cat, and the cat began to sit back on its hind legs, and waved at him.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And the landlord was like, "What's going on over here and took— and basically crossed the street to go see what was going on with this cat." And then—
AMANDA: Relatable.
JULIA: —a moment later, Amanda, a bolt of lightning struck where he had been standing.
AMANDA: No way.
JULIA: So this man attributed that good luck to the cat's actions, and so the waving cat is placed in businesses in order to bring good luck to their owners.
AMANDA: I was gonna say, I always see it in the front of, like, a business or restaurant, and I sort of assumed that much like— I don't know. Like, as a kid, we would like toss pennies in somebody's brand-new car, that it— it was just sort of a general good fortune situation. But—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —I can't believe it was one man and he almost died by lightning.
JULIA: It was just this one dude, so the— the maneki-neko—
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: —extremely good luck and that's why it is such a symbol that is used throughout Japan and the, like, Japanese diaspora. A lot of times we see them as white in— at least the United States, but they're often portrayed as black in Japan itself because—
AMANDA: Oh, cool.
JULIA: —black cats in particular are seen as a sign of wealth and prosperity, and are particularly good at warding off bad luck and danger.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude. Yeah, I feel like most often I see them as kind of white with, like, red and gold accents. But I would love to see if anybody has them at home, or in their workplace, or their parents' workplace, I'd love to see your version.
JULIA: Yeah, I will definitely send you a couple of the versions that I saw that have the black cat and I was like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "—Look, he's so cute. I like this so much better than the white ones." Great.
AMANDA: This anecdote really tells me that every time I stop what I'm doing in order to look at an adorable cat or dog passing me by, I'm gonna lean into that, baby.
JULIA: Yeah, do it. Do it. It might be trying to send you a symbol that, like, "Something bad is gonna happen, you should get closer to me."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So black cats in Japan as well are also considered particularly good luck for single women, because they are effective in curing concerns about romance and love.
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah. I love that especially as a sort of antidote or compliment to the, like, you know, quote-unquote like, "cat lady," as a stereotype of women who don't have partners or romantic love.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Which does stem from the kind of, like, accusations of witchcraft—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —and then we'll talk about a little bit, but don't worry about it.
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah.
JULIA: The one last cat that I want to talk about from Japan is the nekomata, which is a cat that if it grows to a certain age becomes a yokai with a second tail, and the ability to stand on the time legs, and speak human language.
AMANDA: Oh, my.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: So when your, like, 18-year-old cat is still going strong, one day it will just sprout another tail, and say, "Hey, give me more wet food."
JULIA: Probably, Amanda. I want to say solidly. Now, Amanda, those are some of my favorite examples of the Japanese versions of cats that can be lucky, sometimes tricksters, but mostly lucky. We're going to head back to Europe and talk about black cats and their association, but first, how about we go and we grab a quick refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
AMANDA: Hey, hey, hey, welcome to the refill, everybody. I know that I'm always a little bit sad the day after Halloween and it feels like— ugh, like the spooky season is behind me, but no, no, folks. We get to carry the magic of spooky season on all year long. That's why today is the black cats episode. That's why next week is another spooky episode. It's spooky season all year long haired spirits. Don't worry, don't fear, don't despair. We have got you. And you know who else has got me is our newest patrons Alyssa and Tam. Thank you so much for making sure that some of your human dollars every month go to supporting a podcast that you presumably like. We like you, too, and we really appreciate you, as well as our supporting producer-level patron, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. And our legend-level patrons whose costumes were so good, people are still talking about them, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. If you would like to join the Patreon, you can, you should. It's at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And it'll also help you extend your Halloween experience because we posted a bonus Urban Legends episode yesterday, all about Halloween, including a follow up, by the way, from the haunted chairmaker, remember them? So good. The person who wrote in, their mom wrote in, with more information. Truly incredible. A Tier, A+, so good. You can enjoy that Urban Legends bonus episodes in audio and video form, a new benefit we have for our patrons. So go on ahead, do it, your money supports the show, helps us make this our jobs, and helps us pay our new editor, Bren. Shoutout Bren. Bren is editing this episode, this is their first one. Welcome. We are so happy to have you, and you'll be hearing more from Bren soon. Now this week, I have been spending a lot of time indoors, not because it is chilly and dark outside, but because it is hot and humid in New York City, and I hate that. So I have been hunkered down on my couch, in the air-conditioning, yes, in— the first day in November, watching my husband, Eric Silver, play Spider-Man 2. This game is incredible. It is so beautiful. You're able to swing through the cities of the streets of New York. And not just Manhattan, but also now Brooklyn and Queens, our boroughs, my boroughs where I live and where I used to live, my— my spiritual home. I am screaming and distracting Eric as he plays, as I see landmarks that I recognize. It is so cool and it is so beautiful. And if you either have a PlayStation and you're able to play Spider-Man 2, incredible. Consider it. There is a character who is deaf in the game and they have a lot of ASL, they have great subtitles. It's really cool. Or look up people playing through the game online. You can watch on YouTube as people do it and, like, enjoy the gorgeousness and bounty of this game, even without buying a whole console and game. Over at Multitude, always a good and busy time. We have lots of fun stuff coming up, including a new podcast that we release once a month for MultiCrew members that Julia is hosting called the MultiCrew Review. Now, this is where Julia interviews another Multitude host or staff member every single month about something they're enjoying. Often, it's a game, when the strikes are over, they will also include pieces of media. We talked about books in the past. It is so much fun. And it's a brand-new podcast for anyone who supports us at any level in the MultiCrew, which is the membership program that sustains Multitude, helps us do what we do as an independent media company, and also gives you cool benefits, like an insider newsletter, special channels of the discord, special hangouts with us, the hosts, and stuff like Head Heart Gut, our weekly debate podcast and, of course, now, the MultiCrew Review. She's doing a great job. I know you want to hang out more with Julia in your earbuds each week. I certainly do, and I talk to her every day. So check out the MultiCrew Review. Join at multicrew.club, got it? Got it. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, the end of the year is coming, right? We're talking about the end of Halloween, it's November. I know for me that when it's dark outside, when I leave work in the dark, I definitely feel myself dragging a little bit. It is hard and I'm like a plant, people. I need the light. I need like a very specific temperature zone and fairly high humidity, okay? That's what I need. And it is challenging. This time of year can be a lot, whether you're thinking about how your year went, or how you hope the next year will go, whether there are holidays and expectations and travel that you have to do or want to do and can't, or need to do and don't want to do. It's just a lot going on. And I know, for me, there's always different and particular kind of stress that the sort of post-Halloween, getting into November period of time brings up for me, and that's something I talk about in therapy. I really appreciate that I get to go somewhere once a week and talk to somebody about how I'm feeling and get an outside perspective, but someone who knows me well, and knows the context of my life and the characters in my life, and can listen, and kind of help me figure out how I can get through it, and give me a pep talk sometimes, frankly. 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JULIA: Now, Amanda, unsurprisingly, there are a lot of black cat recipes out there when it comes to cocktails, from the overly sweet to more savory options. But the one that I chose is one that I've been really vibing with lately, because Jake has gotten into making homemade espresso martinis.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: He's like— it's his favorite thing right now. He loves to, like, just come home from work and be like, "I need a little pick me up, but I also like want to relax from the day." Espresso martinis, good to go, right?
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: Now, this is kind of a little bit of a twist on it where this is the Black Cat Old Fashioned. So you're starting out with a bit of bourbon, you're using some mezcal because you know that we love mezcal here on the show. Like, is it a cocktail if there's no mezcal in it? I don't know. I can't say for sure.
AMANDA: I don't know. Not for us.
JULIA: They also use chocolate bitters, and the pièce de résistance, an orange and black coffee syrup, which kind of adds all of the flavors to, like, really tie it all together. I will include a recipe for this in our recipe cards, which as a reminder, if you sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/spirits podcast, you can get recipe cards for every single episode, and I'll teach you how to make this orange and black coffee syrup. So it's a real win-win.
AMANDA: You get not just a recipe card for the cocktail we're drinking, but also a non-alcoholic version, which we have been doing for, checks watch, 360 episodes. So there are 720 recipes waiting for you at patreon.com/spirits podcast.
JULIA: And I'm pretty sure almost all of those are not repeats so, like, I worked hard on that.
AMANDA: You do, you do.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, I have a little game for us before we get back to learning more about black cat superstition and folklore, and this is called black cats and fiction.
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: So I've got five cats here, I'm going to describe to you the cat and you're going to tell me the name of that cat and/or what that cat is from.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: Alright, I'm gonna start off with a real Amanda one. So—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —hopefully this is— this is an easy one for you. We'll— we'll see.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So—
AMANDA: Margaret from Sabriel is white. That's all I know.
JULIA: Okay, great. So this cat shares a name with a Disney dog, and it's the cat of the narrator of this short story that winds up with a wife bricked up in a wall.
AMANDA: Ahhh.
JULIA: It's also by an author that you can wrap the entire poem of.
AMANDA: Okay. Edgar Allan Poe.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Thank you. Someone's wife— okay. Is it in the— bricked up in a wall that— no. The Tell-Tale Heart, it's in the foundation—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —or is that— or— or are they in the wall for that, too? It doesn't matter.
JULIA: I think that's in the foundation.
AMANDA: Yeah. Annabel Lee, maybe, is the poem?
JULIA: I will give you a hint. It's the same name as the title of this episode.
AMANDA: Black Cat is the poem, excellent.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And a Dis— okay. I have no idea offhand. A Disney dog, well, there's Pluto.
JULIA: You got it. That's it.
AMANDA: Oh. Yes!
JULIA: The cat's name is Pluto and the— the short story is Edgar Allan Poe's The Black Cat.
AMANDA: Incredible. Thank you very much. You gave me all of the tools I needed to succeed.
JULIA: Okay, great. The rest of them should hopefully be easier. I just wanted to start off with the— the classic Amanda, Edgar Allan Poe.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Now, cat number two, this cat used to be a handsome colonial boy until he crossed three witches while trying to rescue his sister.
AMANDA: Very good. This is going to be Hocus Pocus and—
JULIA: Correct.
AMANDA: —I think the cat— is the cat, the boy's name?
JULIA: The cat is the boy's name, yeah.
AMANDA: I don't know if I can— Kevin, Charlie? I don't know.
JULIA: I truly love the idea of a colonial boy named Kevin and now I can't stop thinking about that.
AMANDA: Right. I forgot he was colonial. Shit. Yeah. Okay, John, probably?
JULIA: His name was Thackery Binx.
AMANDA: Okay. Never would have gotten there, but very cute.
JULIA: You got Hocus Pocus though, so I'll give you that. I will give you that.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JULIA: Alright. Cat number three, anime aficionados will know that this cat helped Usagi find her celestial destiny in this '90s TV show.
AMANDA: Okay. Is this Sailor Moon?
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: And the cat, I don't know their name.
JULIA: Her name is Luna.
AMANDA: Oh, I could have—
JULIA: It's cute, right?
AMANDA: I could have guessed some moon synonyms, that's on me.
JULIA: Alright, cat number four. This fast-talking, sassy black cat was typically portrayed as an animatronic in this classic '90s comedy series. Though, he was played by several former shelter cats with names like Elvis, Warlock, and witch.
AMANDA: That's very cute. Is this Sabrina the Teenage Witch?
JULIA: Yes, it is.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Do you remember the cat's name?
AMANDA: It's really— shit. This is not a series I watched, but I feel like in pop culture, it's— it's— I— I have been so close to it.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Oh, is it like Merlin or something?
JULIA: Hmm, you're close. Amanda, what— what, like, a classic Massachusetts town did Hocus Pocus take place in?
AMANDA: Salem?
JULIA: Yes. His name is Salem. You're doing great. I love it.
AMANDA: Thank you. I knew it was magic-related. Okay.
JULIA: Now, this one I'm not sure you'll get, but I— I had to include it because I know our audience, alright? So Phil Hartman lent his voice to the English dub to an apprentice which is familiar in this 1989 animated Ghibli movie.
AMANDA: Is this Kiki's Delivery Service?
JULIA: It is.
AMANDA: Unfortunately, I don't have any idea what the cat's name is.
JULIA: His name's Jiji.
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: J-I-J-I, Jiji.
AMANDA: Julia, that was so much fun. I thank you for putting that together.
JULIA: I love games where I have to make you guess any sort of pop culture, I'm so sorry.
AMANDA: Listen, it's— it's always an absolute crapshoot, but that's what we're here for.
JULIA: Sometimes. I still don't know what your blind spots are, and we've been friends since kindergarten.
AMANDA: 25 years this year, Julia, do you know that?
JULIA: Oh, my God. That's wild.
AMANDA: Our silver anniversary. Is it silver?
JULIA: Because 50 is gold.
AMANDA: Alright. So we'll have to get each other a silver present.
JULIA: Wow. Oh, wow. Okay. We'll do it. Alright. Let's talk a little bit more about cats. And now, Europe— there's a bit more to go on in terms of Europe, because we're going to kind of lead into our black cats are bad luck in the later half of this episode. But we have to talk about, like, ancient Celtic mythology first, as well as sort of Scottish and Welsh folklore. So to start us off, ancient Celtic mythology, much like in Egypt, cats were not only beings of worship, but they were also supposed to be creatures from the realm of the fae.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So cats, in general, were said to have some sort of fairy origin. But a black cat in particular might have been known as a cat-sith, which was basically a very large, like the size of a dog, black cat with a tuft of white fur on its chest, who, according to some folklore, could walk on two legs and speak to humans.
AMANDA: Great. Terrifying. Love it.
JULIA: However, in most stories, they often tried to pass themselves off as regular cats because they were, like, doing mischief and stuff like that. And, you know, in general, what we know from Celtic mythology, you don't want to mess with the fae because they could either bring you really good luck or really bad luck.
AMANDA: Yeah. I was gonna say the— the association of cats with the supernatural makes so much sense. Anytime a cat, like, stares off into the distance or at a wall, or maybe something that's not there, or, you know, sniffs something and runs away. I'm just like, "Yeah, you know something I don't."
JULIA: Yes. Well, that is very much true because the cat-sith was said to as well be able to predict the future, as well as the weather, and would bring good fortune to a home in exchange for a saucer of milk or cream, especially when offered on Samhain. If a house did not leave out an offering of milk on Samhain though, it was said that their cows' udders would go dry.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: "Well, it's like you couldn't spare even a saucer of milk. Now, you will get no milk at all."
AMANDA: "No milk for you."
JULIA: Cat-sith also has some origins in the Scottish Highlands, though the Scottish version of the story says that if a black cat passes a newly dead body, they will steal that person's soul.
AMANDA: Ah, good.
JULIA: Yes. So as such, the Scottish have what they call a late wake, which is designed to keep the cat-sith away from the corpse and before burial. So that was, like, basically a very, like, rambunctious kind of wake situation. There was dancing, there was music. They would put out catnip, so that, like, the cats would kind of, like, stay away.
AMANDA: Huh.
JULIA: And they would also not light any fires, because they were worried that the warmth of the fire would attract the cat.
AMANDA: Oh, damn, I didn't know that.
JULIA: Yeah, look at that.
AMANDA: I wonder if that has something to do with the— in— in my upbringing, an Irish tradition of a kind of upbeat wake where— you know, for me, very normal to have music, laughter, dancing, good stories at someone's wake. And I didn't realize until I was older that that was not necessarily everybody's experience.
JULIA: Yes. I think that might have something to do with it. I don't know if that's a direct correlation, but it is very possible that, you know, the origins of that were lost to us—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —or what have you, so I like that. The cat-sith in the Scottish tradition as well is said to be a witch that had the ability to transform into cat form nine times. But if they chose to return to their cat form for the ninth time, they would remain that way for the rest of their days.
AMANDA: I would love to have that choice. Wouldn't you?
JULIA: You'd be like, "You know what? I'm good now. Let me just live that cat life." That's what retirement is, Amanda. It's just choosing to live as a cat life for the rest of your days.
AMANDA: Yeah. I mean, at a certain time, maybe that trade-off is good. Maybe this— you know, this flesh suit, I'm just like, "Ugh. I'm— I'm tired of it." You know what I would love to be? An elderly cat napping in the sun.
JULIA: Yeah. And, like, just taking care of for the rest of my days. Isn't that the dream for everyone?
AMANDA: Not— not bad. A choice I'd like to have.
JULIA: So while the cat-sith was met with suspicion, given the fact that they supposedly stole the souls of nearly dead bodies, there are some traditions that dictated that a black cat was a good sign in Scotland. So Scottish lore says that a black cat's arrival to a new home indicated that that household would thrive.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So a very good sign to have a black cat in a new home when you first moved in.
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: And there's also a Welsh superstition that a black cat will bring good health to a household. So according to a Welsh rhyme, which is translated because I'm not going to attempt to speak the actual Welsh phrase. "A black cat, I've heard it said, can charm all ill away. And keep the house wherein she dwells from fever's deadly sway."
AMANDA: Ooh. I bet that does sound very good in Welsh, too. It's already a very mellifluous language.
JULIA: I— I agree. It definitely— probably sounds very cool and I'm into it. I also want to give a quick shoutout to sailors, because sailors believed that having a black cat on their ship would bring good luck, which makes sense because cats keep disease off of ships by, like, killing rats and other— other pests—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —as well as they are better mousers in the shadows because of their dark color.
AMANDA: I love that. And it's probably very important not to have mice, I don't know, like, eat all your grain or poop in your water when you are on ship with limited supplies.
JULIA: That is true. That is true. And that kind of tradition goes even further where it was said that fishermen's wives would bring black cats into their homes in the hope that it would protect their husbands while they were at sea.
AMANDA: Adorable. I also really like the idea of, you know, spouses who are separated, having, like, sibling cats, or at least matching cats that remind each—
JULIA: Aw.
AMANDA: —other of each other when they're away, you know?
JULIA: That's so cute. I like that a lot. That's really adorable. Now, Amanda, all good things kind of must come to an end, because—
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: —as Christianity spread across Europe, we saw—
AMANDA: Oh, it's always it. It's always it.
JULIA: Yup. We saw the persecution of folkloric beliefs that did not fit into the conformity of Christianity. So, suddenly, black cats, which were religiously revered by some, were instead seen as companions of witches, or basically just anyone who was not following Christianity down to the letter.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, this religious persecution meant that cats that used to be a symbol of good fortune became indicators of evil. So, like, roaming black cats were supposed to be witches in disguise, or demons in cat form that were sent to spy on their enemies as their familiars. So this is all—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —starting to, like, sound very familiar, right?
AMANDA: Yeah. And like there's, you know, the devil, the devil associated with the underground and shadows. Like, I've— I've see kind of where these associations start to be put on something that, like, many, many traditions just doesn't conform. And so it becomes other and then it becomes bad.
JULIA: Yes. So, obviously, this kind of leads to the persecution of witches, and by extension, animals associated with them, particularly black cats. And not only was it the association with witches, but during the Middle Ages, specifically with the spread of the Bubonic plague, black cats were considered to be one of the creatures that was maybe spreading the plague, which is like, I guess, you know, if you're gonna associate something with evil, obviously, you're going to associate it also with the spreading of disease and illness, and whatnot. And unfortunately, this misconception led to the killing of many black cats on mass. Now—
AMANDA: But isn't— wasn't it spread by rodents? So, like, isn't that bad?
JULIA: Amanda, as always you put two and two together very quickly.
AMANDA: To be fair, I know about germ theory and they did not, so this is— this is not really like a personal victory, but I'll— I'll take it.
JULIA: Yeah. So anyone— if you are familiar with the plague at all, this situation backfired on them horribly, because the reduced number of cats meant that the rodent population was not in check, which helps spread the disease even more rapidly via the fleas feeding on the rodent population.
AMANDA: That's it. Tough.
JULIA: So part of this misconception and formal targeting of black cats came from the Catholic Church, specifically from Pope Gregory IX, the pope that declared war on cats.
AMANDA: No, Gregory.
JULIA: Gregory, what.
AMANDA: Come on.
JULIA: You see, there was a papal Inquisitor during the 13th century, whose name was Conrad of Marburg.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Conrad of Marburg took his job way too seriously, as was the case with a lot of inquisitors. And so under—
AMANDA: Typically a job for the, like, under stimulated and other parts of their lives where they're like," You know what?"
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "I'm gonna make this my whole thing."
JULIA: Yes. So this was— this was Conrad's whole thing, and so what he liked to do was— he was like, "I want to get people to confess that they're doing witchcraft and stuff like that," or being coerced into doing witchcraft and stuff like that, you know, under threat or actual torture.
AMANDA: Yeah. Famously, a way to get really accurate confessions.
JULIA: Yes. Famously so. And so Conrad was basically getting a report of these people who were confessing to attending black masses, where there was a bunch of stuff going on, giant toads, you know, guy with a bullhead, et cetera, et cetera, orgies are happening. But one of the most important parts that he was taking note of was the fact that these black cat statues would come alive and they would worship the devil.
AMANDA: I don't know, Julia. If I'm at an orgy, I think worshipping the devil is the last thing on my mind.
JULIA: Yeah, I'm just— in general, I'm probably feeling uncomfortable about my body and, like, whether or not these people, like, are actually into me and, like, you know, that—
AMANDA: Yeah. I'm like, "Well, like, Thaddeus be upset if I spend more time with, like, Demetrius or whatever?"
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. That's a real problem for everyone.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: It's a real universal problem about orgies. So Conrad, who— you know, this is his life, unfortunately, he serves this report to the pope, which of course, is a lot of bullshit. And Pope Gregory then declares in 1233 CE as part of the Vox in Rama, that black cats carried Satan's spirit with them and that is—
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: —what led to the mass extermination of black cats by those loyal to the Catholic Church, because they were like, "Well, if it's got a piece of the devil in them, the more that I kill, the more Satan is weakened."
AMANDA: Don't like that.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Don't like any religion that is like, "Hey, killing other creatures sounds like a great way to get to heaven." And I think that we have Conrad to blame for why black cats still have lower rates of adoption in shelters, because, A, they're more hard to photograph, but B, there's this lingering shit.
JULIA: Amanda, you're exactly right. And I'm going to remind people at the end that that's my PSA for the end being like, "Hey, when you go to adopt a cat, go get and adopt a black cat."
AMANDA: Our friend Heddy adopted an adorable black cat named Toast, and she is the light of my life. She drinks water by, like, using her paw and sort of like splashing water near herself.
JULIA: Oh, it's—
AMANDA: And I do impressions of Toast drinking water, like, twice a week. She's the absolute best.
JULIA: Well, Toast would have helped everyone probably not get the Bubonic plague, but because—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —because Pope Gregory was like, "You gotta kill all the black cats." The population in many European areas was extremely low, and according to scholars, was one of the reasons that the plague spread as quickly and as dangerously as it did.
AMANDA: If only we learned something about uniformly, kind of flattening, and, like, removing important parts of the sort of, like, habitat and natural life cycle. But no, no, no. We love just, like, chopping down all of the tree, or bringing in these pretty plants that, uh-oh, have taken over all the waterways.
JULIA: Oh, boy. Invasive species are killing me. Anyway, so while this literal assumption that black hats were Satan in disguise, or carried a part of him around, died out, black cats are still very much associated with bad omens in the Western world. So let's talk a little bit about those superstitions, because I think there are some in here that maybe you have not heard before.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: So you have, of course, probably heard that a cat crossing your path is supposed to be bad luck, however, there is a little bit more to that. So in some traditions, it is said that if a black cat walks towards someone, it actually bring you good luck. But if when it walks away from a person, it takes its good luck with them.
AMANDA: Incredible. However, I feel like you can't really convince a cat to do much of anything that it doesn't want to do.
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: So that seems like you're really just putting your fate into the hands of the gods there.
JULIA: That is true. That is true. So, similarly, since we talked about sailors earlier, if a black cat walks onto a ship, but then quickly walks off of it, it is said that that ship is doomed to sink during its next voyage.
AMANDA: The cat is like, "Bad vibes, dude. I don't know."
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. Trust the cat's vibes. He's like, "This place, I am not going to drown today. Not gonna drown today."
AMANDA: Alright. If I'm married to a sailor, I buy them a black cat so they can take it, you know, with them on the journey—
JULIA: Obviously,
AMANDA: —before I, you know, take them down to work to, like, wave goodbye. But first, make sure the cat goes on the ship, and if the cat nopes out of there, I'd say, "Sorry, honey, we're— we're going home."
JULIA: Yeah. "No, baby. You got to— we— we can't do this one this time. You could just find another ship to go on."
AMANDA: Uh-uh.
JULIA: "You know?"
AMANDA: "Wait— wait for next year, baby. No, no, no."
JULIA: So somewhat opposite of the cat stealing the soul of a body in Scotland, in Southern Europe, it was said that if a cat jumps across a person's grave, that person will rise as a vampire.
AMANDA: Ah. Oh, damn.
JULIA: I— I really like that as a cool vampire origin story in my opinion. It's very—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —like Halle Berry terrible Catwoman movie vibes.
AMANDA: Yes. Right? And I— I feel like the vampire and the cat would have, like, an affinity for each other when the vampire rises. That's adorable.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Yeah, I think that's another like— vampires are often portrayed— or especially in, like, Dracula in Eastern European culture, they're portrayed as being able to transform into different types of animals. I bet cats are one of them.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: I don't know off the top of my head, but I bet it is.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. It has similar vibe as, like, the ravens and, you know, bats of the world.
JULIA: Yes. Yeah. I think in general, like, a lot of black animals got associated with the plague and— or, like, just death in general. And so we were just like, "Oh, that's not good." And you're like— you know, just colorism. Don't— don't do that.\
AMANDA: I know. I'm like, "Come here, bestie. I love you. I love you, crows. I love you, bats."
JULIA: Aw. I love— I love grows.
AMANDA: Bats are the puppies of the sky, Julia.
JULIA: That is true. Amanda cats are, according to superstition in the Netherlands, very gossipy.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: So people try not to have important or private conversations in front of cats because they will be more than willing to spill your secrets.
AMANDA: Incredible. Cats are gossipy little guys. I love that.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. And then finally, in North America, if you see a black cat during a funeral, it is said that another family member will soon follow into death.
AMANDA: Sure. I mean, that's always true. It just depends how you define the word soon. But I think— I don't know. It would feel like the world was mourning with me, I think, if I saw some, you know, sort of solemn animals while at a funeral.
JULIA: I also saw another great one, which was if you see a black and a white cat fighting on top of someone's grave, it means it's an angel and a demon fighting for the soul of that person.
AMANDA: How often does that happen?
JULIA: Apparently, often enough that we made folklore about it. Incredible. However, I do— I want to leave us off with some good fortunes that black cats can bring. So for example, a black cat can help a woman who is anxious about getting married, because see one on her wedding day means that the marriage will be a good one.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: There's also a Pennsylvania German tradition of a bride, quote, "feeding the cat from her shoe," which also blesses the marriage. I don't know how one goes about that. If it's like you put, like, a little snack on top of your— your foot, and then the cat comes, and eats it. Or like it's literally out of the shoe—
AMANDA: I thought, like, in the shoe maybe, yeah, like as a vessel.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah. But speaking of weddings in Italy, hearing a cat sneeze on your wedding day indicates that the marriage will also be a good one.
AMANDA: I mean, that just sounds really cute.
JULIA: Yeah. And on an average day, hearing a cat sneeze is also good luck. Specifically, it means that unexpected wealth is coming your way.
AMANDA: Oh. The cat's like, "What's that on the breeze?" Sniff, sniff. Achoo. "It's gold. It's money."
JULIA: However, Amanda, if a cat sneezes three times that means you have a cold coming your way.
AMANDA: Alright.
JULIA: You're like, "Did I get it from the cat? What's going on here?"
AMANDA: I was just like, "I don't know if that's how germs work." But okay.
JULIA: It might be. Who knows? Maybe it's just the change in the weather and that means that like—
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JULIA: —you know, we often get sick because the weather changes, so who can say?
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: Regardless of whether cats are good or bad, or if these are all just superstitions, I do want to leave you with the fact that, as Amanda pointed out before, black cats are admitted to shelters and rescues more than cats of any other color according to the ASPCA. So, hey, if you're heading to your local shelter, and you're thinking of adopting a cat, consider a black cat.
AMANDA: Consider a black cat. You have so many options for names here. You could name your cat Pope Gregory IX, and I think that would just be an incredibly funny thing to do.
JULIA: A cat named Conrad would be very good.
AMANDA: Conrad of Marburg would be incredibly good. You can name your cat Hecate. You can name your cat a witch. You can name your cat any of the cats from the game, Chrysanthemum, Julia or Amanda—
JULIA: Bastet.
AMANDA: —is a great name for a cat.
JULIA: And, of course, like, obviously, we want you guys to send in your pictures and your names of your black cats. I need to know them immediately. That's always a absolute blessing for all of us in our timeline, so—
AMANDA: Yes. You can tag us at Spirits Podcast or send us an email, spiritspodcast@gmail.com and we will put together a little reel of all of the black cat pet photos— or I'll— I'll accept cats of all colors. I'm especially interested in the black cats. And we will make a little reel and we will post it to our social, because we— we've got to see your sweet babies.
JULIA: I need to. I just need it. I need it real bad. And I know all you creepy bitches probably have black cats. If you have a cat, it's probably a black cat, let's be honest.
AMANDA: And incredible names. You probably have good tattoos. You probably have great cat homes and cat toys. I want to hear it.
JULIA: Well, conspirators, next time you see a black cat crossing your path, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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