Episode 330: The Bacchae
/We’re back on our theatre grind, this time with a play about debauchery, tragedy, and our boy Dionysus: The Bacchae! It’s a play about plays! What’s not to love?
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, dismemberment, immolation, pregnancy, injury, concussion, violence, imprisonment, and animal death.
Housekeeping
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is episode 330 about the Bacchae. Starting or continuing our trend of ancient plays that are probably pretty fucked up.
JULIA: Yeah, I've been in my head calling this mythology as stage plays, because you know, theater kids deserve all of the love. It— I'm—
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: —I'm looking at my childhood self and I'm being like, hey, hey, theater nerd. You deserve love too, and I want to give it to you.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: So as you mentioned, Amanda, we're going to be talking about the Bacchae or the Bacchae written by Euripides. Though it wasn't actually performed until Euripides passed away in 405 BCE. So it was performed posthumously and was either directed by his son or his nephew. No one's like, they didn't keep track about who did it. But all we know is Euripides wrote it, they performed after he died. And it is like genuinely considered one of his greatest works, if not like one of the greatest tragedies ever written. So keep that in mind as we go through the scholar say greatest plays ever written.
AMANDA: I love it. And in— in keeping with my younger theater kids self, saw this when I was 16, when our theater group took an optional trip to London, in lieu of a sweet 16 party. My parents paid for half of it, and I paid for half of it, and it was wonderful. And we saw the Bacchae, which was messed up at the National Theatre, and it was so fun.
JULIA: Yeah, it is. It—it's a messed up play. It is a tragedy, and it is not afraid of being a tragedy. And we've most likely mentioned this in our It's all Greek to me episode on Dionysus. So I'm sure that some of the names and the events will sound familiar to our conspirators. But I really want to dive deep into this one, because again, this is one of Euripides' best works and like to this day is considered who like just— just the bomb, just the bomb.com. And I want our listeners if they haven't gotten a chance to experience it, to at least experience it here on the podcast.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: I am not the performer here, you should go see it in real play form if you can, but I will give you the— the beat for beats here. So let's hop right in, shall we? The play starts off with Dionysus. This is why it's a huge deal for Greek plays, in general, is normally the gods are very like secondary characters, or they're like looming in the background, but they're not actually like characters in the play. And this is one of the few examples where a god is a primary character in the play. So that is something to keep in mind too as we go forward. So Dionysus is kind of starts off the play alone on stage and he spends the first portion explaining his origin story. And those of you who listened to the it's all Greek to me episode will be familiar with it, but if you need a little refresher it— he talks about how his father was Zeus, how his mother was a mortal woman named Semele, and how the two had a consensual affair which we have to specify for Zeus because a lot of times it's not. But as we know from just like Greek mythology in general, eventually Hera finds out and tricks Emily into making Zeus show her his true divine self, which is too much for her and she is burned to death by his presence. His divine presence is too overpowering.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: Classic. However, Semele was pregnant with Dionysus. And Zeus in order to rescue the would-be Gods, stitched him into his own thigh. Again, we love an interesting birth story in Greek mythology and Greek mythology always delivers.
AMANDA: Yeah, and like again, post traumatically resonant is this for Dionysus?
JULIA: Exactly. However, the problem is Dionysus was never actually acknowledged by his mother's house, the House of Cadmus and they, like all truly believed that Semele had lied about having an affair with Zeus and rather had like a mortal lover who then in turn killed her. So rough time for Dionysus who like despite being a god is having some complex family issues. So Dionysus having heard the story and having been raised in these faraway lands has decided to return to Thebes which is the city-state of the House of Cadmus To get his revenge for how the House of Cadmus has treated his mother and for the fact that the House of Cadmus has refused to allow him to be worshipped and has given no sacrifices to him, which is his do as a god, you know. Every which way this is going to be a tragedy. One you're denying the true birth of a God, which is never a good thing to do. And you're—
AMANDA: Uh, uh.
JULIA: —and you're denying him his sacrifices and his worship, which is again, not a thing you do, even if this is a new baby God. He decides to appear to the House of Cadmus in the guise of a human, a leader from the land of Lydia with an entourage of his own priestesses in order to show the royal family that he is a god worthy of worship. Quote, even against its will, so he— he's coming in hot, he is really not going to give them an opportunity to repent. He's like, I am coming for revenge and I am gonna get it.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Dionysus tells the audience that even before he has arrived in Thebes, he has driven the women of the palace into a Bacchanal madness, and they have fled to the local mountain, which is Mount [5:53] where they sing and dance and worship Dionysus.
AMANDA: And I think this is the thing that people know about the Bacchae or at least that I did have like, oh, yeah, the like those ladies, you know, like in a frenzy and like doing, you know, doing they're just like Lady things in the wilderness. But there's obviously so much more to the story.
JULIA: There is, there is indeed. So meanwhile, while this is happening, Semele's father Cadmus himself of the House of Cadmus has handed over the kingdom to his grandson, which is Pantheous, who has stubbornly refused to worship his cousin, even though it would just like solve all of the problems facing him, he just will not do it.
AMANDA: I know in so many stories, just worship the ruler, even if you disagree with them.
JULIA: Yeah, just like just worship the gods, that's it. Don't like— their gods, you know?
AMANDA: Seriously.
JULIA: After Dionysus has kind of laid this scene for the audience, the chorus enters, which the chorus is basically like worshipers of Dionysus for this plot. They are worshipping,they're singing his praises, and they are calling for the city to defy their King and start worshipping as well saying like, oh, it's truly like an ecstasy to be a worshipper of Dionysus, which you know, it is because that's his whole jam is like ecstasy and living freely. You know what I mean? So, enter our guy who you might remember from our Oedipus episodes, Tiresias. Oh, hello Tiresias, it's good to see you again.
AMANDA: Hello.
JULIA: You know, like it can't really be a Greek play if Tiriseias doesn't show up, right?
AMANDA: Seriously.
JULIA: Tiresias as you might remember, is Aesir, and he calls upon Cadmus to come meet with him as they are old friends, and Tiresias urges the king to dress up in deerskin and go and worship Dionysus up on the mountain with the other worshipers who are known as the maidens, right? Which like, you know, when your old buddy says like, hey, man, we're gonna go worship a God, put on this fond skin, we're gonna have a great time. You'd listen to him, especially someone as smart as Tiresias who has a gift of sight from the gods.
AMANDA: Of course, I'd be like, thank you for including me.
JULIA: As they begin to like get dressed and they start to dance for the chorus and the audience. They remark on how like, oh, despite their age, they feel more youthful than they have in years. It must be Dionysus, which like bless those— bless those old folk being like, yeah, man, I feel younger than ever. So at this point, Pantheous the new king enters and he doesn't see Tiresias and Cadmus like dancing to the side, he's too engrossed with his own thoughts, and he's so frustrated with the situation of these missing women who are under the thrall of Dionysus, right.? So he tells the audience that he does not truly believe that the worship of Dionysus is actually worship, but rather like just an excuse for people to engage in like drunken deplorable behavior. Like how dare these people like quote-unquote, “worship” when all they're doing is getting drunk and dancing around and stuff like that?
AMANDA: One of those moments where ancient mythology is so very modern as well. Damn.
JULIA: Yeah. So he has told the guards to arrest any of the women who have fled into the woods to worship there. But the arrival of this Lydian priest who is really Dionysus in disguise has made this plan more difficult. And finally, finally, he spots Tiresias and Cadmus and tries to like basically like dress them down, like shaming them for their acts. But Amanda, Tiresias is here, clever old Tiresias. He starts debating with Pantheous and is like, well you know, if we worship Demeter for providing food for us, we should also be worshipping Dionysus because he provides quote-unquote “liquid nourishment” aka wine.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: What a good argument. Amanda, you were a debate kid in high school.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: How would you write that argument?
AMANDA: Extraordinary. And Julia, if I may sidebar real quick. So on—on Survivor, one of my favorite TV shows. There is a rule that tribes and contestants have to be treated equally. So for example when they are setting up like a you know, a relay race type competition, It wouldn't be fair if half of the field was in the shade and half in the sun of course so that like one team you know gets the benefit of like being in the shade as their competing. And so they set it up to you know, to have it as equal as possible. And so a contestant who was eliminated this season, at some point someone had like passed out during a challenge and so they had like stopped the challenge, they like you know, checked on the guy, they have a little like medical umbrella that they put over them to like put them in the shade.
JULIA: Incredible.
AMANDA: And gave him a bottle of water as he was like recovering because he had previously like, sustained what they realized was a concussion later. And so this smart player was like, hey if Bruce gets a water bottle, can we all get a water bottle? And so they all got a water bottle. And I was like—
JULIA: Amazing.
AMANDA: —damn, this contestant is so freakin smart. Like that is such a good way to be like I did read the rules, and technically he got liquid nourishment, so I want liquid nourishment.
JULIA: That's how you play the game baby.
AMANDA: It was brilliant, and I think that this argument you know, using the rules as written is excellent. And it doesn't surprise me that Tiresias is super on ball.
JULIA: Yeah, he just crushes it. He also goes on not only is it the liquid nourishment argument, but he's also like, well, when you think about it, you know, like wine releases pain, it helps bring sleep, it brings joy to those who drink it. Like therefore Dionysus must be a powerful God, one of frenzy, one of panic, one of inspiration, and a prophecy and therefore must be respected.
AMANDA: I'm into it.
JULIA: Yeah, Tiresias is right. But Amanda, no king has ever truly believed Tiresias even when he talks. And in classic Greek play fashion, Pantheous threatens Tiresias which is always, always a mistake. And the two older men leave saying that they hope Pantheous's stubbornness will not lead to his destruction, but they're like, but it probably will.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: So Pantheous exits and the chorus arrives, they're calling on this minor goddess Holiness to call out Pantheous and be like, hey, look at this guy. He's so sure he knows what God should and shouldn't be worshipped. Man, this guy sure is acting like an idiot and being reckless huh? So they leave and a servant leads on to stage Dionysus, who is again disguised as a human, and they present him to Pantheous. It turns out that Pantheous has ordered the arrest of this priest and he had come willingly, even like smiling at the servant who brought him before the king. And the servant is just like thrown off by this because he's never like, arrested someone and they were pleased about it. So he's like, I'm only following orders. I— like I didn't want to arrest you, and I'll even tell you like the women who we've caught so far from the mountain, they all manage to like, seemingly escaped through miracles. Oh, so the worshipers of Dionysus can just get out whenever they want huh? Must be divine intervention or something. But the audience, of course, is getting all of this information, but it's not explicitly said to us. The servant also kind of senses that something is up about this stranger and tries to like on the slide, tell the king like, maybe you're pursuing the wrong course of action here, sir. But Pantheous is too pleased that he's managed to arrest a priest of Dionysus, that he doesn't pay attention to any of the signs, that this is in fact, Dionysus, the God Himself.
AMANDA: Yeah. Julia, I mean, the Oedipus plays and everything else have taught us that no kings listen to advice, basically.
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: And they really should.
JULIA: They really should. And that's why they all end up dead, or what terrible tragedies at the end of these plays.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: So of course, Pantheous, like you said, doesn't take any advice. It starts to interrogate Dionysus, who the play refers to as the stranger for most of this, which I think is a very cool name.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: He asks him where he's from, why he's there, who gives him the right to preach in Thebes etc, etc. And the strangers like, oh, well, Dionysus himself initiated me into his cult. And Pantheous kind of scoffed at that, And he starts like, absolutely dissing Dionysus telling, like a twisted version of the birth story. But he seems to like be unable to move the stranger to anger. And so he tells him oh, well, Dionysus has taught me many rites you know, like many secret rites And Pantheous is like, oh, well tell me about those rites. because I want to hear all like the bullshit that you're preaching. And—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —Which is just like, oh, yeah, tell me all the deep dark secrets so I can just turn them against you and say they're bullshit.
AMANDA: It really reminds me to I'm just thinking of all the play as we've done now of—of the beginning of Faustis, where Faustis is like physics. I don't think so, bitch.
JULIA: Medicine, egh.
AMANDA: Yeah, a lot boring.
JULIA: It does have kind of that vibe. So—
AMANDA: Yeah. Unless it's interesting, then tell me all your secrets.
JULIA: Exactly. So Pantheous is like tell me all your secrets and the stranger says to him, quote, It is not lawful for you to hear, though it is worth knowing. And I'm like, woo, it's a good response.
AMANDA: Woah. I— I'm spiling that away.
JULIA: Yeah. So this pisses Pantheous off even more, and he tries to trick the stranger into revealing more, but all he learned from the stranger is that he is unable to like learn anything basically, and so he's just left angry. So he threatens the stranger much like he did Tiresias. And like this is a running theme where it's just like when he has no control of the situation he resorts to violence and threats. And you're like, oh, maybe that's a bad thing to do my guy, it's a bad thing.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: So the stranger says in response that just like no matter what is done to me, my God will free me and will punish you. And in his anger and feeling powerless, Pantheous does the only thing he can do which is sentence the stranger to be chained in the stables in the dark.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: I guess there's no dungeon or like prison or anything like that. Just stables in the dark.
AMANDA: I mean, not pleasant, you know, lot of smells, a lot of noises, I get it.
JULIA: Horse could kick you, not a fun time.
AMANDA: Not a fun time.
JULIA: Time for the chorus again after that. They are angry not only with Pantheous but with the city of Thebes for rejecting the worship of Dionysus. And also stress a connection between like the God, his father Zeus, and the fire that killed his mother. So he's just like, hmm, that might be important later, who can say. Meanwhile, in comparison, they describe Pantheous, who through the House of Cadmus has like descended from a dragon's tooth that was planted in the earth, and they refer to him as a wild-faced monster, which is a great insult. Big fan of that.
AMANDA: Damn. Next time someone asked me a personal question, I'm gonna say I sprouted from a dragon's tooth buried in the earth, and you?
JULIA: And you, not as good huh? The chorus who does not know that the stranger and Dionysus are one and the same, then like call upon Dionysus to save their priest, the stranger, and wonder where Dionysus might be in this moment. And they kind of go through like a bunch of places, they're like, oh, I imagined him here. I imagined him there. Oh, maybe he's there. But all they know is like, I think he's coming here. And they kind of leave it at that as the next scene starts. But while they wonder where Dionysus could be, why don't we grab our refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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JULIA: Alright, so we're back from the refill, and here's my hot take Amanda, I have a hot take about cocktails for you.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: More cocktail should have red wine floaters.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, I think you're totally right. A little bit different, but this weekend I had a cocktail involving whiskey and like a peach sour beer, and it was so good. And the whiskey really undercut the sweetness of the sour and like the little funk from the beer really hit with the rye, it was awesome. And I think red wine floaters are criminally underutilized.
JULIA: I agree. I mean, the most famous is the New York's Sour, which is fine. I'm not like a huge fan of New York's Sour, but it's fine.
AMANDA: We could—we could do so much more together.
JULIA: I know. I know. But today Amanda, I have brought the Penitent Punch, which is kind of similar to a Devil's Margarita, which is basically like a margarita with a red wine floater, which sounds amazing. But the Penitent Punch has tequila, vodka, and red wine. So, you know, Dionysus would be all about this, right?
AMANDA: Yeah, that uh, that seriously pecks punch, I bet.
JULIA: Yeah. And conspirators, if you have a favorite cocktail with a red wine floater, please send them my way, I want to experiment more with them. And—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Oohh boy, I just want it real bad. I just want it real bad. So we left off with the chorus being like, I wonder where Dionysus is? Well, they don't have to wait too long because in that moment, there is a flash and the chorus hears the voice of Dionysus who tells them that their prayers for justice will be answered. He then summons an earthquake that collapses the entire palace and then summons flames, and the tomb of his mother flares up with those flames. So there's a lot going on, there's a lot of miracles happening here. And it's—very like, whoa, whoa, big, big moment, god is here kind of thing. Dionysus then enter still disguised as the stranger and calls for the women of the chorus to rise. The women greet the stranger as though they know it's Dionysus himself in that moment, but then revert back to treating him as though he's simply one of the priests. And they asked him how he escaped his imprisonment. Like, I mean, fair question, you know, the king just imprisoned you, how did you get out of there? And he just like super casually is like, oh, no worries, I freed myself. I tricked Pantheous into thinking he was binding me, but instead, he bound a bull.
AMANDA: Ohh, smart.
JULIA: He also tells his kind of captive audience that Pantheous as things were starting to go south in the palace tried to kill the stranger, but only stabbed at shadows. And the last time he saw the king, the king had collapsed on the ground. Much like that survivor contestant, Amanda.
AMANDA: Yeah.Seriously, poor Bruce. He literally got a concussion in the first like three minutes of the game.
JULIA: Oh, buddy, that sucks. So in that moment, Pantheous looking extremely harried then enters and he is ready to fight, just ready to absolutely throw down. But the stranger is like relaxed brother, there's not much you can do here, you're up against a God no matter what kind of reinforcements or troops you have, there's no beating of God, which fair and valid in Greek mythology, for sure.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Pantheous is still very feisty, though. But—then one of his messengers enters and tells him that the [28:34] have been seen on Mount [28:37] and brings forward a cow herd who has seen them there. I always love when there's like a guy who's like, tell us what you saw. And he's like, well, here's what I saw. Because we couldn't do this onstage.
AMANDA: Exactly. It's— it's so smart. It's so smart. Once you start noticing it, you really can't stop and it just— it's so charming to me.
JULIA: So the cow herd is like, alright, I will tell you what I saw, but you— first you have to promise me that I won't be punished for telling you what I saw. And Pantheous was like, yeah, sure, whatever. Just tell me what you saw. So the cow herd starts telling him about the women that he saw including Semele's sister, and Pantheous, his own mother. And they were all like sleeping out in the open air of the mountain. And when he first saw them, they didn't seem like they were drunk or were like misbehaving at all. But when the sun began to rise, and they heard the cow herds, cows in the distance, they like statically rose, they let their hair down, which is scandalous during ancient Greek times. This is a reminder of letting your hair down means you're like being unbound by society basically. And they put on deerskin dresses. And these are like representations of the worship of Dionysus, particularly the fond skin, is a big like Dionysus thing in case we forgot about that.
AMANDA: Also, can I say, looks great on all skin tones?
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: Looks great on all bodies, looks great—
JULIA: That's true.
AMANDA: —on all people. I think more foe font skin for me.
JULIA: I'm into it. I'm into it. So the cow herd continues saying that he saw them playing with [30:07] animals even suckling wolf cups, which is crazy, I love that.
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: And they would like tap rocks kind of like you would tap a tree for SAP from which Milk Honey and wine would flow out of the rocks, Amanda, the rocks.
AMANDA: Incredible. And like I know there are so many allusions to the Bacchae in Jane Campion's Top of the Lake, which is like one of the best sort of like true crime-y mystery-y, but like lots of stuff going on miniseries, like TV series, and there is a sort of like, you know, women who have been hurt by men, sort of retreat and like feminist, you know, retaking of back to the land-ish, which like in New Zealand has a lot of different politics is very complicated. But this—this scene really reminds me of that where you know, you—you have everything you need, and the land provides for you when society won't.
JULIA: Yeah. And that is absolutely the case with Dionysus and his worshippers here. But the cow herd tells Pantheous, this is kind of the—the wrinkle of the situation, that they tried to capture the king's mother to return her to the king. But when they tried to ambush the group, the [31:16] attacked the men and their cows. And while the men were able to escape, the cows were torn to pieces by the [31:24] bare hands. So that is just like where these women are at right now. They're like, we will tear up living things with our bare hands.
AMANDA: Yeah, seriously.
JULIA: So the cow herd then begs Pantheous to acknowledge Dionysus's divinity, but of course, Pantheous ignores him, too focused on like, again, this wantedness of the god's worshipers, right? So he decides the best course of action is to simply kill all the worshipers who have taken to the mountain. Obviously, that's the best way to do it. That probably won't have any sort of ramifications whatsoever.
AMANDA: It sounds totally fine.
JULIA: At this point, Dionysus as the stranger steps in is like, okay, you know how you wanted to know those rites of Dionysus earlier, the secret ones that I wouldn't tell you? How about I show them to you.
AMANDA: Ohh.
JULIA: Ohh. And Pantheous is like yes, absolutely, very quick to agree. And Dionysus tells him that he has to go into skies, of course. Naturally, because if they knew they wouldn't let him there for the religious rites, right? Otherwise, he just be ripped apart, just like the cattle, you know?
AMANDA: This is very serious. However, a thought has just occurred to me, which is do you know that trope now of like filmmakers making movies about the power of movies, you know.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like in our house, we go like the movies like, there's so—we love the movies. This is kind of the ancient Greek version of that, right? it's like using costuming, using disguise, using theatricality on— in your stage play.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Of course, it would fascinate these people who've dedicated their lives to playwriting into you know, putting them on. Not to mention in a culture that centers play is so much more than the one that least I grew up in, and we grew up in. But that's so sweet. Like I'm picturing, you know, this is like Steven Spielberg, you know, the Fabelmans of like, ah, yes, the art of the movies. And it's having a character put on a mask when they're on stage, you know, with other people in masks.
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, the most wild thing too, about what you just said, is that this is also a play that is centered around the God who would later become representative of plays.
AMANDA: Yep, it could not be more on the [32:22]
JULIA: Dionysus, the stranger tells Pantheous, okay, here's what you got to do. You got to get a long-haired wick, you need long skirts, you need deerskin just like the other followers. And Pantheous is like super thrilled, agrees and the trap is set. Dramatic, for the dramatic part. So the stranger and Pantheous leave and the chorus once again left alone. And they are elated by what they've just seen and know that Dionysus will be successful. That's our guy, that's our God. So they compare themselves to deer in that moment, running through the forest, having just escaped a hunter. And they asked the audience what is wisdom, and then use that wisdom must be vengeance for they know that their god will soon have it. Which I think is a beautiful and like, horrifying, but beautiful sentiment. Perfect for a tragedy like this. So the chorus leaves and Dionysus as the stranger once again emerges and calls for Pantheous. Pantheous enters dressed as a woman a [34;21]. And as Dionysus describes so eager to see what he should not see and strive to achieve what should not be sought. Which again, be like oh, yeah, you're really excited to like, see this stuff that you're really not supposed to see, huh buddy? Maybe there's a reason you shouldn't be seeing it. Have you thought about that?
AMANDA: Yeah, and maybe you shouldn't like totally dismiss what's going on here because even you're fascinated with it.
JULIA: Exactly. So Dionysus begins to use his powers kind of manipulating Pantheous causing him to see double and hallucinate. So the stranger like looks like a bowl to him. And they do this entire portion in couplets, which is super cool. Which I really just like, you know from–from Mechanical playwriting perspective, it's a really interesting, very quick kind of back and forth that they do during this part, with like Pantheous being really pleased with his disguise and what's about to happen. And Dionysus sort of like alluding to what is actually going to happen here. But Pantheous is not part of the joke, even though the audience is in on it. So Dionysus makes like a few adjustments to his outfit, and the way he's standing, and the way that he's walking and stuff. Kind of like a director directing an actor. Again, this is a play about plays, which is super cool. And so he says that he will act the servant to the king, among the Maenads, sarcastically knowing that the rules will soon be reversed. He also tells Pantheous that the king will be brought back to Thebes, quote, in a special state, and along with his mother, and then departs with Pantheous for the mountain, which I'm really, really leaning hard into, like the foreshadowing of what's about to occur here.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: So again, the chorus emerges now more vengeful than they ever were before. And they summon the embodiment of frenzy to visit the mountaintop as Pantheous arrives there. They describe basically like they're not there, but they describe what they think is about to happen, where his mother will be standing on the cliff, seeing her son, and then calling for the other maenads to attack the stranger. But again, like they're describing it in a way that is reminiscent to what the cow herd described to them earlier, [36:26] being killed by the maenads. The chorus is basically he's here demanding blood and they asked for their God to deliver it in the form of Pantheous. Oh, boy. So as per usual, we don't get to see the death on stage, because Greek plays very rarely ever did that. But we do get to see it delivered by a messenger to the chorus. So this messenger arrives to tell the chorus that Pantheous is dead, and the chorus like basically rejoices, which admittedly scares the shit out of the messenger, because he's like, whoa, why are we also bloodthirsty here, your king is dead. But the chorus is like, shhh, hush. Give us all the spicy details, which, of course, he does. So the messenger had gone with Pantheous and the stranger aka Dionysus up onto the mountain. And they had seen the maenads in the valley below them. Though Pantheous very quickly got frustrated, because he was like, I can't see them well enough. I can't see them go. Like there's too many trees. I can't see from this angle. And so he's like, I'm gonna climb the cliffs to find a tree to perch in, so I can see them in action. Strangers like, huh, that sounds dangerous my guy, why don't I just do this for you instead? And he basically like with a single hand, bends down a huge pear tree, puts Pantheous at the top, and then straightens it back up again. Which again, those like God like miracles, suggesting who he was, but Pantheous is too blind to actually see that the stranger is Dionysus.
AMANDA: Yeah. And, you know, the voyeurism of this scene, I think, is really powerful and speaks to how a lot of people are, you know, disgusted by sex or vice or people letting go, particularly women, but yet, you know, are curious to look at it even if they don't want to. A vow that the so many people need or even do.
JULIA: Yes. And I think that like that is kind of the—the theme that Euripides is trying to get to at the end of this idea of like we can balance the like control versus letting go. We can balance the chaotic with the structured. And it is Pantheous's own fault what happens to him because he cannot find that balance. So the stranger puts him up on this tree. However, the moment that the tree straightens up, all of the maenads can now see the king because he's just—he's exposed on the tippy top of this tree. Like if you think about a pear tree is very conical, and he's stuck at the top, so he's like, very clearly not hidden by the branches. And in this moment, the stranger all of a sudden disappears. And a voice from the heavens calls down to the maenads, telling them that Pantheous is their enemy and must be destroyed. And again, much like there was in the palace,it's accompanied by this like fiery glow, that signals that oh, Dionysus is here. So Pantheous's own mother is the one that leads the maenads in attacking Pantheous. As the maenads' froth at the mouth and have wild eyes, and they're trying to reach Pantheous at the top of his tree. They're attempting to like throw stones at him to knock him down, but he's too high to reach. And then they try to like tear the tree out from the roots, but they find that they're not strong enough. And finally, to get to him, they grab the tree and they shake it which dislodges the king. So he falls to the ground helpless and he attempts to persuade his mother not to attack him begging for her to recognize him and forgive him for doubting in Dionysus. In classic Greek tragedy form it's like oh, I'm sorry. My bad please, don't let anything happen to me.
AMANDA: Too late.
JULIA: But his mother again in at sacred madness of Dionysus grabs his arm and rips it out of the socket. And soon enough the rest of the women tear his body into pieces and scatter him across the mountain. And that is the end of Pantheous. But the final moments here are Pantheous's mother picks up his head, and when last the messenger saw because he ran away after all that. He had seen that she was heading back towards Thebes, claiming that she was coming home with a trophy, much like a hunter would. Incredible. So the messenger then hustles off because he doesn't want to be there when the women return. And the chorus reflects on while they're happy that Pantheous is dead, the manner of his death is admittedly really fucking horrifying.
AMANDA: Okay, alright, we're giving notes now. I don't know about that.
JULIA: You're like oh, yeah, glad he's dead, but whoa, yikes, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah. Uh, I know.
JULIA: So Pantheous's mother arrives at that point with her son's head in her hands, and proclaims that it is a lion's head and chose it off to the chorus. While the chorus obviously knows that this is no lion, they humor the madness of Dionysus, and they congratulate her on her quote-unquote, “happy hunting.”
AMANDA: Yeah. And let's just flashback again to 16-year-old Amanda jetlagged and moved sobbing alongside all of the boys I had crushes on in high school because all of us are like, holy shit. Wow, this is powerful.
JULIA: Yes. So in this moment, she calls for her son wanting to show Pantheous her success.
AMANDA: Brutal.
JULIA: Of course. Already, the tragedy gets worse and worse, and worse here. However, it's Cadmus the elder, who we haven't seen since his earlier scene with Tiriaseas, enters and is carrying the rest of Pantheous's body that he's gathered from the mountaintop. Now at this point, Pantheous's mother is still in her revelry, but Cadmus is able to bring her back to reality by asking her questions about the things around her like, the color of the sky, and she's like, oh, it's glowing, so bright with divine energy. And he's like, well, is it possible that the colors you're feeling on the inside, are what you're seeing on the outside? And that kind of brings her out of the trance that she's found herself in, and then Cadmus asks her what she's carrying, to which she replies, oh, it's a lion's head, but then realizes what it truly is.
AMANDA: So brutal, and I think I remember correctly that the prop work in the rest of the body was just kind of like a bloody sack. One of many moments where the implied horror, right like your brain can—can provide so much more than any visual could.
JULIA: Yeah, it's like the movie Seven and the what's in the box scene. But in this case, it's a bloody peck.
AMANDA: Yeah, seriously. You look in the box, you're like a cake? And it sounds like you're sure, and then you're like, oh, no.
JULIA: Oh, no, it's not a cake.
AMANDA: It's Gwyneth Paltrow.
JULIA: But the real tragedy here I think, is that she does not know how she came by her son's head. And it's Cadmus that has to tell her, oh, yeah, you're the one who did this to him.
AMANDA: Brutal.
JULIA: And at this point, the two are mourning for Pantheous and Cadmus in particular laments that Pantheous has to pay for the sins of the, family, for how they treated Semele, and how they denied Dionysus. And at this point, our boy Dionysus then appears on stage in his true divine form the stranger no longer and tells both of them what will happen to the House of Cadmus. Pantheous's mother will be banished from the city, and Cadmus and his wife will be turned into dragons.
JULIA: Cool. I mean—
AMANDA: I mean, could be worse.
JULIA: Could be worse. But he's also like, listen, you're gonna get turned into dragons, you're probably going to like rage across the Greek countryside for a while, but don't worry, Ares is going to rescue you at some point, and he'll bring you to a peaceful land eventually. And so Cadmus and his daughter kind of exchange these emotional goodbyes, and they depart for their own twisted fates. And the chorus has a final song they sing about the power of the gods, but it's a little bit like honestly unremarkable because Euripides has used the same ending, the same quota in like three other plays. So you're just like, alright, yep, the gods are good, and you should worship the gods. Thank you, Euripides.
AMANDA: Like singing line or theme song like, yeah, yeah, I got it, I got it.
JULIA: So you might be wondering, in listening to this episode, and like listening to a play like this, what is up with all these, like people doubting Dionysus and his godhood, right? like—
AMANDA: You know what Julia, I was wondering that.
JULIA: Yes, because like as we study it now we're like Dionysus is solidly a part of the Greek pantheon. But when Euripides is writing this play, it was just as Dionysus was being introduced to Greek religious life. Because Dionysus was, as we kind of talked about a bit of a late addition to the Pantheon. And he represented like a truly chaotic presence compared to the ordered and structured gods and goddesses of the Pantheon, or as ordered basically as the Greek gods and goddesses can be in Greek mythology because they're chaotic bitches.
AMANDA: Yeah, for sure.
JULIA: So where are these other gods represent like control? Dionysus is this freedom and release like I mentioned earlier. And with this play Euripides is saying that such a force needs its own space in the religious life of the Greeks, that the irrational has to coexist with the rational. And to deny it has to fall into the same fate as Pantheous, which is losing control and ultimately dying by the hands of the gods, you know?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And you know, Euripides is really talented, because he gets all this across by framing it as a family drama, which of course, the Greeks fucking loved. The Greeks love a family drama.
AMANDA: Yeah, there's nothing that hits harder it seems to Greek audiences, or at least Greek playwrights than like, the loss of a whole house.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like that is, you know, I think, especially for a culture obsessed With like, you know, lineage and permanence and raising monuments and, you know, carving their names on the surface of the world, that is really fucking serious. And for most of human history, you know, you— you live and die with the goal of making things slightly less precarious for the ones that come after you.
JULIA: Yeah. So I think this is like a great play. If you have the opportunity to go see it, please do. Like the language, even translated is extremely beautiful. The scene where I told you guys about earlier where they're talking in couplets and finishing each other's rhymes, basically is a fabulous scene to see it live, or at least to see like a filmed performed version of it. I like genuinely do think it's one of Euripidies's best plays if not one of the best Greek plays to come out of the Greek playwrights here. And it's really nice to have a little bit of context for it at the end being like, oh, you know, it doesn't make sense for them to not want to worship this one God, but like, it does in the sense that, hey, this was a new god on the scene. And he needed to basically like win the hearts of the Greek religious life. And I think with this play, he was solidly solidified into the Greek pantheon.
AMANDA: Hell yeah. Well, thank you so much, Julia, for bringing it to us. It really is one of the most impactful theatrical experiences I can remember because music and lighting and just all of the tools that we use to transport human beings to other emotional states in theater, is such a good complement to the subject matter of this play. And you know, made me think. And you know what we did because we were 16 in England, but not 21 in—like some of us were 18, some of us are 16. Anyway, we did drink red wine after we got home to the hostel illegally with our teacher, not knowing, and our parent chaperones not knowing. Because you know, what more do you do after watching a play by Dionysus?
JULIA: Of course. And listeners next time you are frolicking on the mountain wearing your deerskin outfits remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!