King Arthur: Origins
/A new year, a NEW MYTHOLOGY SERIES. Welcome to our Arthurian Legend series. We’re starting with its namesake: King Arthur - the man, the myth (???), the legend. We talk about historical origins, Rome demanding “money please!!!”, and the surprising retrieval of the sword in the stone!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of sexual assault, infidelity, warfare, misogyny, and death.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And Amanda, it's a new year. And with the new year, it means a new series for us to dive into in terms of a specific type of mythology. So as many ConSpiriters know in the past, we've done deep dives into Greek mythology and Norse mythology and Egyptian mythology. But this year, the Lord's year of 2026.
AMANDA: Is it the Lord's year still?
JULIA: Ah, well, you know what? That's a good point. However, I think more than any of the three that I've just listed, this new category is going to be the closest to the Year of Our Lord than any others.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Because, Amanda, in this year, I want to dive into something that is— something that I've only been tangentially familiar with in the past. It is something that is tied to a lot of, like, different pop culture and is inspired a lot of fantasy series and television series and book series. But it's one that I will admit, it's never really grabbed me as much as the pantheons of our past. But after we did our Merlin episode a few months ago, Amanda, I think I'm ready for Arthurian legend.
AMANDA: We're going deep on Arthurian legend in 2026?
JULIA: We are indeed. Now, Amanda, what is your experience with Arthurine Legend like?
AMANDA: Julia, it's gonna be those Avalon books for all the bisexual unicorn girls. I feel like the unicorn is the most bisexual option for the bisexual horse girls, you know what I mean?
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: I definitely read some YA fantasy books when I was a child that were loosely based on, like, knights, and that's generally what I think of Arthurian legend informing. We've definitely covered Merlin and I think probably various Renaissance fairs and Monty Python, but that's kind of where I stop.
JULIA: Okay, all right. Well, Amanda, that's exciting, because I think we're going to kind of flesh out some very interesting stories and characters that maybe the two of us, in general, aren't very familiar with.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Now, I don't have an official title for this series yet. So if you would like to help me brainstorm a bit, I would appreciate it. I've been toying with this idea of something like there's a Camelot to know about Arthurian legend.
AMANDA: Okay, okay. Cool.
JULIA: Is that good?
AMANDA: Cute.
JULIA: Is that okay?
AMANDA: That's, Julia, a great working title and I'm gonna sort of percolate on what I can bring as we go.
JULIA: So as the name Arthurian legend suggests, probably the figure that we should start with in terms of origins is the man, the myth?? Himself, King Arthur.
AMANDA: My first question, I'm not gonna lie to you, Julia, is, is the PBS series from our childhoods at all related to the myth of Arthur, or was that Aardvark's name simply a name with an A, Arthur?
JULIA: I think it's simply a name with an A, Arthur.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: But I appreciate you being like, "Now is there a connection between having fun isn't hard if you got a library card and King Arthur?"
AMANDA: Possible.
JULIA: We got the name from there probably. I don't know. Amanda, we've discussed this when we've been talking about Arthurian legend in the past, particularly in our Merlin episodes. But something we have to remember is that Arthurian legend is actually a, like, composite of layers of different legends that have been written by different authors at different periods of time. As a result of that, we get a lot of messiness and sort of overlapping in the "canon." Some of these are going to be, like, stories that are told over and over again with different details. Some of them have trimmed endings. Some are, you know, synthesized and reduced. So that is something that we should keep in mind as we go through this entire series. It is going to be a lot of me, like, retelling a story but then there's different details or retelling it and then being like, "But then this character's there when they weren't there in the past."
AMANDA: Honestly, I really love that because it helps people who are new to the stories, like myself, really pick up on what makes the story, the story and why those small changes have really huge impacts on the listeners.
JULIA: So this is something to keep in mind not only as we go through this episode about King Arthur, but also as we go through this entire series. But we are going to start with the origins of King Arthur to start this series off. So both his formation in myth and then to finish it off, we're going to talk about, like, some of the more basically generally agreed upon stories.
AMANDA: First question, and I feel a little bit silly for asking, was King Arthur a real dude?
JULIA: Great question, Amanda. We will get to it. But also in this episode, we are going to touch on some major pieces of, like, the major arcs of Arthur and Arthurian legend. And you're going to see a lot of like, again, characters show up that you're like, "And that'll be important later." You remember when we were doing the Norse mythology series? Everything revolved around the death of Baldr. It's going to be a lot like this. But instead of Baldr, the through line for this series is going to be Arthur. So the mythology pretty much tends to begin with his conception.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And the story usually ends with his death, or should I say first death, but we'll talk about that later.
AMANDA: I have a lot of questions, including why the story starts at conception and not birth?
JULIA: Because we need to know how fucked up it was that his birth happened the way that it did. Now, Amanda, to answer the question that you so purposefully put earlier for me, I appreciate that. That is actually the first question that a lot of people ask about King Arthur is, was he a real guy? The answer depends on who you ask.
AMANDA: Okay, good start.
JULIA: Some scholars believe, no, never existed, just a fairy tale. Others believe that there was, at some point, some historical figure who either was named Arthur or someone who was transformed into the figure that would become Arthur.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So let's start with the historical backstory that sort of leads to the legend itself, shall we? Picture, if you will, it is the beginning of the fifth century.
AMANDA: Okay, the first thing my brain does is yell at me that that's the 400s just because we were— well ,actually, a few times too many in high school. Good start.
JULIA: Yep, correct, correct. The Roman Empire has overextended itself.
AMANDA: Yeah, baby.
JULIA: It has made it up to Britain, but it has also tied itself up across the Mediterranean and North Africa and into the Middle East. England, as we understand it in historical context, has been, at this point, Romanized. It— essentially, Rome got to Britain, said, "This is Little Rome now," and then sort of, you know, converted the local people, the indigenous people, the population there, into being Roman citizens. What we need to also understand, though, is this is like, again, what we historically understand to be England, because the Romans stopped expanding at Scotland, which is where they built Hadrian's Wall—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —for the Hadrian's Wall girlies out there. call
AMANDA: We call, Julia, ourselves the Hadrian's heads. I don't think it's actually true, but let's just try.
JULIA: They also never fully expanded into the west, so no real influence in Ireland and didn't really conquer all of Wales, some parts of Wales, but not all of Wales. So the people of the north and west weren't, like, particularly politically organized against the Romans. You've essentially got various different fiefdoms. A fiefdom being like a minor lord or whatever controls his land. And that's about it. However, in 410, Rome, capital city of Rome, not the Roman Empire as a whole, is sacked by the Goths and they recall their legions back to the center of the empire in order to protect the capital, right?
AMANDA: I did just learn, Julia, of the phenomenon of pastel goths via a drag queen on TikTok, which is very good.
JULIA: It is very good.
AMANDA: And I'm just glad to know, and that is what I'm going to be picturing.
JULIA: Hell yeah. So pastel goths—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —take over.
AMANDA: Doesn't it just make it a little bit more delightful to think about Roman history that way?
JULIA: So they recall their legions back to Rome. This leaves a political and military power vacuum in various parts of the empire, but in particular, in Britain. This ends up leading to a lot of raids in Britain. I'm not particularly interested in military history. This does not really interest me as a, like, period of time or particularly, like, who was doing what and what battles, but it is relevant to us to talk about this. So a couple of dramatic tribes attack Britain. These particular tribes that we should mention are the Angles and the Saxons.
AMANDA: Ooh, I'm hearing familiar root words.
JULIA: To protect his people, there was, at this point, a minor British ruler who makes a deal with these dramatic warriors in order to, one, save his people, but also, two, defeat the other local lords.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: His name was Vortigern. Now, you might recognize that from our Merlin episodes because he played a really important role in the origins of Merlin. So at this point, the Angles and the Saxons help him defeat the Scots, who were known at this time as the Picts and the Irish, which were known, confusingly at this time, as the Scots.
AMANDA: Love when that happens. Remember when the Republican and Democratic parties just switched ideologies, Julia? And then we have to just live in a world where we talk about Republicans throughout US history and it's not quite the same? Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. So that's confusing, but just know they helped Vortigern, like, defeat his enemies and stuff like that. But in doing so, they use this as an opportunity to bring their people to Britain and they launch an invasion there. So there's this huge Anglo-Saxon invasion of the island of Britain. It lasts so long. It lasts for two generations. But it lasts for two generations because at one point, the local people, these like Roman, Celtic people, are able to hold off essentially half the island. Like, if you drew a line straight down the island, that's kind of where they're able to stop the Anglo-Saxons, right?
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: This eventually leads to, again, after two generations, the Anglo-Saxons leaving, potentially even retreating, depending on which scholars you're talking to. But there is evidence from this period of time that scholars point to, that there was a figure who helped rally the troops around him. Someone who is charismatic, who is intelligent, who is a good fighter. And this, these scholars argue, might have been the historical basis for King Arthur.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So that's kind of like our historical context. Where the legend begins is a little bit foggy and a little bit, like, sort of hard to tell where history ends sort of and legend begins fully, right? So we don't get a Arthur mention until later. However, what we do get are these Latin sources, which they don't mention Arthur outright, but they sort of lay the basis down for this figure who is, like, sort of legendary, sort of historical. And it's another name that's going to sound very familiar when I get there. One of the major sources of information about who this historical figure is, is based on Latin records that come from the work of a man named Gildas, who we mentioned in our Merlin episode. Now, Gildas was a Welsh monk who was later canonized as a saint.
JULIA: You're such a good librarian, you've become close to God.
AMANDA: Very fun, love to see it. So he wrote a history called On the Ruin and Conquest of Britain. And in particular, he name drops a man who we again also mention in the Merlin episode, who may have been the inspiration for Arthur but also might have been the inspiration for Merlin depending on which scholar you asked. And then this guy's name is Ambrosius Aurelius.
AMANDA: That is a Roman-ass name, Julia.
JULIA: That makes sense because according to Gildas, this guy is supposed to be the orphan son of Roman nobles, who led a bunch of decisive victories against the Anglo-Saxons during those, like, two generations that I mentioned earlier.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So it is very possible that this guy is the historical basis for Arthur. What is the sort of, like, difference here is that Aurelius was never actually considered a king, he was just a respected military leader.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So, like, know, worth mentioning like, "Oh, this is slightly different, but it is important."
AMANDA: I'm already feeling the myth-making Julia, like a real, you know, like, orphaned son of nobles, left in Britain, grows up in England or what will become England. You know, maybe, like, gets people's pathos behind their side, maybe chooses his homeland over the home of his birth parents. So I'm feeling the mythological ingredients percolating.
JULIA: Yes. So you see it, you see the soup forming before everything starts to come together.
AMANDA: I am also a devotee of the King Arthur Baking Company, so I am also picturing like a sourdough starter percolating, for example.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, I'm so glad you mentioned that because I was going to save this for the end. But do you want to hear a little bit about the King Arthur Baking Company?
AMANDA: Julia, I would love for the people to learn about the employee-owned badass, King Arthur Baking Company.
JULIA: So shout out to Researcher Sally who included this in the outline—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —that she sent over. "In 1896, Sands, Taylor, and Wood introduced a new brand of premium flour. George Wood had attended a performance of the musical King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, which inspired the name of the new product—"
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: "—King Arthur Flour. The brand was introduced at the Boston Food Fair on September 10th, 1896 to substantial commercial success."
AMANDA: Let's go.
JULIA: I figured you'd enjoy that.
AMANDA: And they became an employee-owned company a couple decades ago and remain to this day.
JULIA: Hell yeah, and we love to see it.
AMANDA: Love to see it.
JULIA: We are big fans of King Arthur Flour in our household.
AMANDA: Woo.
JULIA: Now, that was before, Amanda, are our Latin sources. Now, we're getting into the Welsh sources. And I just want to say shout out to the Welsh, because—
AMANDA: Just generally.
JULIA: Just generally. If you want to base, like, who gets to claim Arthur as their own based on, like, who sort of introduced him to the world, he belongs to the Welsh. In my humble opinion, he belongs to the Welsh.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, there are five extremely notable Welsh Arthurian texts, and I'm going to try my best on this one. So there is The Black Book of Carmarthen, The Book of Aneirin, The Book of Taliesin, the White Book of Rhydderch, and The Red Book of Hergest. The Book of Aneirin is usually credited with the first mention of Arthur in Welsh in a poem which is called Gododdin, which I've also mentioned in the Merlin episode. So this is the first mention, but it's like a passing mention in a poem that, at one point, is like essentially, praising the military prowess of another leader, but then makes a point of being like, "Yeah, he's great, but he's not as good as Arthur."
AMANDA: Okay. So the myth was lumen.
JULIA: So actually, I have the translated portion that kind of is our passing mention of Arthur. Here you go, Amanda. "He pierced 300 most bold. He cut down the center and wing. He was worthy before the noblest host. He gave from his herd horses in winter. He fed black ravens on the wall of the fortress. Although he was not Arthur."
AMANDA: Okay. Well, shout out to that guy.
JULIA: Usually, like, feeding the black ravens on the wall is like he killed a bunch of people and then hung their bodies from the wall in order for the ravens to feed. So they're saying like, "Yeah, he killed a lot of people, but not as many as Arthur."
AMANDA: I was literally fully just picturing this man befriending the corvids, but that is not what was happening.
JULIA: He's just putting peanuts out for the corvids—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —in your mind? Yeah, yeah.
AMANDA: It's like, "Oh. Here, birdies."
JULIA: He was doing a lot of military stuff and they're like, "And here's the corpses."
AMANDA: Well, you know, that's a very poetic way to refer to hanging traitors bodies by the ramparts.
JULIA: All right. So these five books that I mentioned end up being extremely key to the rest of the Arthurian Legends. Like they're the ones that make reference to Guinevere and Gawain and Mordred, and all of these other, like, pieces of the story. So this probably will not be the last time you hear me mention these books in this series. But the major ways in which the Welsh texts are seen as sort of the precursors to Arthurian myth is found in the Mabinogion, which are a series of stories about a Welsh hero named Pryderi. Now, the Lady Charlotte Guest translated these in the 19th century and included alongside the main story, several other stories that also featured Arthur. So most importantly to us, these stories contained a list of Arthur and his warriors at court, which makes it the oldest direct reference to Arthur and his court, as opposed to the sort of passing reference that we got in the Y Gododdin.
AMANDA: Very cool. Also shout out— a sentence I don't think I'd say, shout out to 19th century women of leisure in that they were able to just write lists that are historically useful to us now.
JULIA: Listen, sometimes it's fun to be like, "Oh, that Victorian lady, she did a good job making that list of things that, otherwise, we wouldn't have Bram Stoker's Dracula or something like that.
AMANDA: Yeah. Like, I don't appreciate that all of society was and is constructed so some people get to live lives of leisure on the backs of other people's work, but it is helpful that some of those people love butterflies and that they were love adopterists and that now we get to know more about butterfly species.
JULIA: That's just true. We gotta get into the sort of meat of things, and we get into the meat of the actual, like, crystallized Arthurian legend with another familiar name, which is Geoffrey of Monmouth.
AMANDA: Geoffrey of Monmouth! Good, ol' friend.
JULIA: Yeah, we're gonna be spending a lot of time, I think, with Geoffrey of Monmouth in this series.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, I'll form my own opinion, but do you think Geoffrey of Monmouth would be an elite historical dinner party invitation or a terrible one?
JULIA: If it's a table full of men, elite.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Any women at the table, not so great.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: So the major pieces of Arthur's legend come from Geoffrey and his book, History of the Kings of Britain, which is from the 12th century. Now, Geoffrey's an interesting guy because he doesn't claim to have written these stories himself, but rather claims that he found this mysterious book, which might've been a Welsh text at some point, to inspire his own recountings of Arthurian lore. So basically, he claims that he found this book, he translated it, and that's what these writings are. But there's a lot of debates among historians about whether this book actually existed or not. But if it did exist, it's been lost to history.
AMANDA: I wonder if some historians think that it was kind of like a meta-textual framing to kind of— like a frame narrative, you know, to just kind of set up the book.
JULIA: Yeah. And then it lends more credence to his retellings of this because they're like, "Well, this is the information that I found and translated." And he talks about, like, not in the book itself, but like in writings that he believes that all of the information within his translation or retelling or whatever it is, is all true and accurate.
AMANDA: Huh? All right.
JULIA: If that is the case, Amanda, it is because he wants to be like, "This— everything you read here is true. I'm not making anything up. This is all correct."
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So let's dig into it, right? So the story begins, as you pointed out earlier, a little bit before King Arthur's birth. And we touched on the story a little bit in the Merlin episode, but we'll casually dig into it again. Arthur's father is Uther Pendragon, who is the brother of the current king, Aurelius Ambrosius. Sounds familiar, but not the same name that we talked about earlier.
AMANDA: Wait, what was the first one?
JULIA: Ambrosius Aurelius.
AMANDA: Oh, my God! Okay, enough.
JULIA: So Aurelius Ambrosius is killed and Uther, as his brother, becomes the king. After he becomes king, he meets this woman named Ygraine or Ygerne, depends on who— in Goeffrey's version, it's Ygerne, later, it's Ygraine. But she is the wife of the Duke of Cornwall. Now, Amanda, do you kind of remember how the story goes a little bit?
AMANDA: I remember that it's fucked up, but I think I blocked out the rest.
JULIA: Fair enough, fair enough. He immediately falls in love with this woman, and he goes to Merlin to give him a potion to basically to be like, "I want this woman to love me. I need to sleep with her. It's very important to the kingdom that I sleep with her." And Merlin's like, "Well, I can see the future and unfortunately is kind of important for you to sleep with this woman." And so he gives Uther a potion, essentially transforms him into looking exactly like the Duke of Cornwall. He gets into the guy's, like, keep, he sleeps with Ygerne, which conceives Arthur. At the same time, Uther's men are fighting the duke's men, the duke is defeated and killed, which leaves Uther to take the man's lands and also his wife.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: This is all fine, according to Geoffrey, because of course he's like, "Well, Ygerne, she really wanted Uther and not her husband, so it's all okay."
AMANDA: Hmm, so therefore the deception is fine. I don't think so.
JULIA: Yeah, no, it's not. But he makes a point of being like, they marry, they have a happy and, like, equal marriage, essentially. He's like, "They're pretty good for each other. It's fine." What's interesting is, according to Geoffrey, the couple have two children, Arthur, of course. But then ,there's also a daughter named Anna, who pretty much is never mentioned again outside of Geoffrey's tellings of the story. She's just like— they're like, "Hmm, Anna doesn't really play an important part. We're going to write her out in future stories."
AMANDA: That's a bummer. I wish that Anna's, you know, kids even were included in the narrative if we can't include her herself.
JULIA: And it's so funny because, like, the next part of the story is like Anna gets married off.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So to your point, like Anna's off doing something else with her own children, probably. And then Uther is poisoned and killed, which passes the crown to Arthur. At this point, Arthur's only 15, but in Geoffrey's tellings, he's like, "Yes, but he's noted for his 'outstanding courage and generosity.'"
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now, Arthur, upon being crowned, immediately is forced into several battles with the Saxons, who essentially are like, "This new king's super young, we're gonna be able to reclaim all of our lands that we lost when we were battling Uther."
AMANDA: I mean, a fair tactical perspective.
JULIA: Yeah. They are totally wrong though, because when Arthur goes into battle, he is a force to be reckoned with. There's like a great description of him, like, on the battlefield, like, described like, "On his head, he placed a golden helmet with a crest carved in the shape of a dragon."
AMANDA: Oh, dang.
JULIA: And then Geoffrey, like, makes a point of being like, "And he's also carrying several other, like, iconic pieces of, like, armor and weaponry." So he has a circular shield that's called Pridwen. day. There is a spear that— and I didn't check the pronunciation on it, but just written out, it's called Ron.
AMANDA: Just R-O-N?
JULIA: R-O-N, Ron.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: And a sword called Caliburn. Now, Amanda, you're probably like, "That's not the name of the sword that I've heard he carries around."
AMANDA: I've heard of Excalibur.
JULIA: Now, Excalibur is a later French invention, which we will talk about in an episode in the future.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Now, during this fighting with the Saxons, we are introduced to several other characters who, like, are fairly important to the story. But the most important that we're going to talk about is a man named Loth. Now, Loth is important because he married Ambrosius' sister. So that technically makes him Arthur's uncle through marriage.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And with that woman, he has two sons, Gawain and Mordred.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Also, during this battle with the Saxons, get a brief mention of Arthur's marriage to Guinevere, which Geoffrey describes as "The most beautiful woman in the entire island." And then Geoffrey just kind of skims right over the rest of that because anytime he mentions a woman, it's like two sentences and then they're done.
AMANDA: This is making me wonder, Julia, if there is a headcanon where Arthur is trans and we get a just, like, classic queer kid narrative where you take over the identity of your sibling that sadly passed when you were children and you get to live out your dreams on the back of a tragedy as the only perhaps silver lining.
JULIA: Interesting. I will say not the same thing, but I highly recommend a book from Lex Croucher called Gwen and Art Are Not in Love in which—
AMANDA: Adorable.
JULIA: —Arthur is gay, Gwen is gay, and they're like, "We're gonna get married for the sake of the kingdom, but we're both in love with other people."
AMANDA: Lex, friend of a friend from the old YouTube days, so—
JULIA: Oh, wow.
AMANDA: —love to see a crossover.
JULIA: Hell yeah. It's very fun. Check it out. And I think there's a sequel which I have not read yet, but very enjoyable.
AMANDA: Cute.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, I'm excited to tell you more about Geoffrey of Monmouth's recounting of the life of Arthur, but before we get into the juicy stuff, how about we go and grab a refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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AMANDA: Hey, everybody, it's Amanda. It is hard out there right now and we're going to take a minute here in the refill to talk about it. I'm recording this on Tuesday, January 27th, 2026, after spending the weekend watching my and your, here in the U.S., neighbors get kidnapped and killed in Minneapolis after months and months of a fascist regime that is just mask off openly fascist now, kidnapping our neighbors. It makes it hard to want to do anything else to return to business as usual. We know here at Spirits that a lot of you treat this show as a way to engage with big questions in a way that is safe and feels like you're doing so in solidarity. Maybe you like to escape, maybe you like to think about human beings and human lives on a longer timeframe than we typically get to do. We talk about myths that are millennia old. I know it helps me sometimes. But today, I wanna focus on helping folks in Minneapolis, immigrants and protesters in a tangible way. And we've got a small plan to help. We are donating our ad space for the foreseeable future here on Spirits to small businesses and mutual aid efforts in Minneapolis that benefit immigrants, protesters, and activists. Now, if you out there are a podcaster, newsletter writer, content creator of some kind, and want to join us in this effort, you can go to bit.ly/mnpodcastads, all lowercase, and that link is still in the description with a guide as to how we're doing this and how you can too. So this is how it's going to work. I'm about to read an ad. I'm going to tell you how you can spend some money to help folks on the ground feeding folks in Minneapolis. And then we're going to get on with our midroll. Okay? This week's spotlight is Café Marguerite. Known for its warm atmosphere, freshly baked croissants, locally roasted coffee, and commitment to community, Café Marguerite is more than a cafe. It is a canvas for connection, located in the heart of the Northeast Minneapolis Arts District. One thing that I really love that brought them to my attention is that they basically keep a gift card at the register for anyone who needs food and drink but can't pay. Particularly right now, when it's so cold outside, being able to come in somewhere warm, warm up a bit, have a warm drink, it's important, it can be lifesaving. So if somebody comes in needing it, they don't ask any questions. And if there is a balance on that gift card, they serve the neighbor, ring them up, no questions asked. You can help Café Marguerite keep that gift card loaded by going to cafe-marg, M-A-R-G, .com, click Order Online, and then scroll to the bottom for the Solidarity with Staff and Community Page. All of those links are in the description. One more time, that's cafe-marg.com, click Order Online, scroll to the very bottom, and buy a gift card under the Solidarity with Staff and Community Section. If you do this, please let us know on social media and we will thank you, because I think it would be really rad. Now at Multitude, we take very seriously the fact that you count on us to help get through your day or your week, whether it is a big deal to you or a small deal to you, we are going to keep coming every single week with the podcasts we make that hopefully make you feel a little more curious, a little less alone in this world. One show that always makes me feel small in the universe, but in the best way is Tiny Matters. This is an award-winning podcast about tiny things from molecules to microbes that have a big and often surprising impact on society. That's everything from deadly diseases to forensic toxicology, to the search for extraterrestrial life. And it's hosted by certified scientist baddies, Sam Jones and Deboki Chakravarti, who really embrace the awe, but also the messiness of science, not just as a way to know more about the world, but as a way that we can understand ourselves in history, today, and in the future. So listen to Tiny Matters every single Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts.
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AMANDA: This episode is sponsored by Marley Spoon. This time of year, a lot of people talk about getting into new routines and making new commitments. And the thing that makes that actually stick for me is making sure it is an easy part of my day. And one reason that I really appreciate Marley Spoon's prepared meals is that when I get home from work and I am way too tired to do anything, it helps me stick to my routine. They're convenient, delicious, and on the table in minutes. You'll find these on every weekly menu, and if you have a few extra minutes, they even have some great 20-minute options, too. I really like their tray-baked dinners, by the way. It's one of those recipes where you put everything on one sheet pan and then you're done. They even include a tray, which is incredibly useful when I don't have the energy to do dishes. This new year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley Spoon. Head to marleyspoon.com/offer/spirits for up to 25 free meals. That's right. Up to 25 free meals with Marley Spoon, marleyspoon.com/offer/spirits for up to 25 free meals.
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JULIA: Amanda, we are back and it's January, so I'm like still a little chilly. So I am going to propose for this cocktail for this episode, a cocktail that I found online that is a Hot Toddy twist that is called the High King.
AMANDA: Very suitable.
JULIA: So it is bourbon, very classic in a Hot Toddy, a little bit of lemon juice, a little bit of honey, and little bit of aromatic bitters. I think you could also get fancy and if you have some fancy bitters, like play around with the different types. But I think you would really like this. And I think it's very, like, cozy comforting as we go through the rest of Arthur's kind of fucked up life.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: Also checking in, any thoughts on potential series names, Amanda?
AMANDA: My brain is circling, pun intended, around the, like, myths of the Round Table, the stories of the Round Table, something along those lines, but I do think it's important to get the word Arthur in there, so keep checking in on me.
JULIA: So at this point, now married and having fought off the Saxons, Arthur turns his sights to Ireland and Iceland, and goes off to conquer those lands. Because why not?
AMANDA: It's like, you know what was bad when the Romans conquered us? Let me conquer someone new.
JULIA: So he succeeds in that and then returns to Britain. And essentially, Geoffrey's like, "And then for 12 years, it's all pretty nice." Pretty sick, actually. Pretty great. He then goes and conquers Gaul real quick, like you do.
AMANDA: Classically, an extremely easy proposition for the Britons for the rest of time.
JULIA: Totally normal, totally a cool thing that he could do because he's Arthur and he could do anything. This is only particularly significant because it mentions another couple of key players for later stories, which is his cup bearer, Bedevere, and his seneschal, Kay. Now, do you know what a seneschal is?
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: It's basically like a advisor. Like, when folks use, like, majordomo, but in a business sense.
AMANDA: Oh. Okay.
JULIA: Yeah. I don't love using majordomo, but that's a good way of, kind of, describing the advisory role for the importance of a, like, king, right?
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: So these people are important. In particular, his seneschal, Kay, will become important later when we talk about Thomas Malory and Le Morte d'Arthur. But he is important in this story because, basically, like, Arthur gifts him a bunch of land in France. And he's like, "Hey, we conquered France. You've been a great advisor. Take some land." And Kay's like, "All right, sick."
AMANDA: "Take some of that."
JULIA: His victory in Gaul, however, is short-lived because while he's there kind of celebrating, he receives a letter from a Roman politician named Lucius Hiberius, who essentially says like, "Hey, you and the rest of Britain are supposed to be our subjects and you stopped paying tribute to Rome. Send us money, please."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: I mean, it literally reads, "You have had the presumption to disobey this mighty empire by holding back the tribute of Britain, which tribute the Senate has ordered you to pay, seeing that Gaius Julius Caesar and other men of high place in the Roman state have received it for many years."
AMANDA: Got it. Like, "We noticed, bitch."
JULIA: "We noticed that you weren't paying your taxes. We want our taxes back."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So they also in this letter demand that Arthur come to Rome in person to be punished. And he says, "Uh, no, not gonna do that."
AMANDA: "Not gonna do that." Yeah.
JULIA: And both the Britons and the Romans start gathering up their armies to meet. Now, this battle is going to happen on the continent. And so Arthur sends word, he's like, "I'm leaving the protection of Britain to Mordred, my nephew, and my wife, Guinevere."
AMANDA: Love that Gwen gets a mention."
JULIA: Well—
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
JULIA: —remember who's telling the story. Geoffrey Monmouth does not like women.
AMANDA: Ah, okay. So something goes wrong and Gwen gets blamed.
JULIA: So Arthur's army meets the Romans in what essentially is like Eastern modern-day France.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But during this battle, Kay and Bedevere are both killed.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: It doesn't look good for the Britons until Arthur himself enters the battle, in which case the troops rally and the Romans are defeated. Now, Arthur is like, "We beat these Romans pretty easily. I think we're going to march on Rome. I think we're going to try to conquer the Roman Empire." That could have possibly happened. But during that time, before they're about to leave the battlefield and head towards Rome, he receives word that, "His nephew Mordred, in whose care he had left Britain, had placed the crown upon his own head. And this treacherous tyrant was living adulterously and out of wedlock with Queen Guinevere."
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Yeah, no good.
AMANDA: To be fair, that's the kind of letter from home that you do drop everything and respond to.
JULIA: Yes, so Arthur turns back around, goes home, meets Mordred in battle to reclaim his throne. So there's two battles. The first battle, both sides are severely wrecked and Gawain is killed in the fight.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: Mordred reforms his army, tries to attack again, but is kind of thrown off when Guinevere flees his side and essentially goes and becomes a nun in a monastery.
AMANDA: Oh. Ooh! Didn't see that coming.
JULIA: When the second battle occurs, Mordred is killed and as Geoffrey tells it, "Arthur himself, our renowned king, was mortally wounded and was carried off to the Isle of Avalon so that his wounds might be attended to. He handed the Crown of Britain over to his cousin Constantine, the son of Cador, Duke of Cornwall. This in the year 542 after our Lord's incarnation.
AMANDA: Wow, big cups for Cornwall.
JULIA: Yeah, I— well, a little bit anticlimactic and also remember the Duke of Cornwall was the one that got absolutely boned by Uther earlier in the story.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, that's right.
JULIA: Yeah, it's tough. It was tough for him. So according to Geoffrey, that's the end of the story, but he is not the only one to tell this story. We've also got, as I mentioned earlier, Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur.
AMANDA: And based on the title and a little bit of context clues, I'm going to guess this is more of a French perspective.
JULIA: Yes. Malory is a bit of a French teller and really sort of starts the tradition of the French romantic tellings of Arthurian legend. So by the time we get to Thomas Malory and Le Morte d'Arthur, it is the 16th century. So it's been a while since Geoffrey has written his like, "I translated this mysterious Welsh book into Latin for you version of the tale."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So a lot of what we understand to be the canon of Arthurian legend has sort of crystallized by this point because it's been about 400 years. So his origin is fairly similar to what Geoffrey laid out for us. He is described as loyal, kind, wise, brave, a fair leader. He marries Guinevere, like in Geoffrey's version. His parents are Uther and Ygraine, which we mentioned earlier. It's like the different spelling or pronunciation of that same character. But we get a couple of new, little details. So instead of Mordred being his nephew, he's in fact his son, which is an interesting little twist on that.
AMANDA: Deeper betrayal.
JULIA: We also get the added detail of Merlin playing a teacher and mentor role for young Arthur. And then Le Morte d'Arthur also introduces a new story and a new wrinkle, which is the sword in the stone and the fostering of Arthur.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Now, I know this is a story we mentioned briefly in the Merlin episode, but I think it is a very important Arthur story, so we have to tell it here. Now, in this version of the story, Arthur is given to a man named Sir Ector to raise in secret. Either that's because, like, in this version of the tale, Uther, you know, is sort of, like, the illegitimate father and hadn't killed the Duke of Cornwall, and so Arthur is sort of sent into hiding. But what becomes important is Uther becomes ill and dies and leaves no apparent heir.
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: Now, Ector knows that Arthur is Uther's son and probably should be the next king, but it gets a little complicated. So this is a chaotic time. Uther leaves no apparent heir, which means that Britain becomes a chaotic mess of rival dukes and lords all fighting to see who should become the king next. So in that time of chaos, they call upon Merlin to find a solution for this infighting because no one wants to be fighting over who gets to be the next king. So they go, "Hey, Merlin, you're smart and sometimes you can see the future. What should we do about this?"
AMANDA: " Figure this one out for us, bud."
JULIA: Now, Merlin knows that Arthur is safe, but is also still just a baby. And so he's like, "I got this." So he erects a large stone on top of which sits an anvil and in the anvil is a sword.
AMANDA: I didn't know that anvil detail. For some reason, I pictured literally just a sword, like, inside a stone as if it grew there.
JULIA: I mean, sometimes that is how it is portrayed. Sometimes the anvil is included.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: But it really kind of depends on the version of the tale. But the inscription on the blade reads, "Who so pulleth out this sword from this stone is right wise king born of all England." Sometimes—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —there's also a little added, like— addition to the end, being like, "So says Jesus Christ." Sometimes it's like, "Jesus said so," and you're like, "All right, fair enough. Well, Jesus said so."
AMANDA: I mean, listen, we have all kinds of words and studies about monarchs claiming divine backing of their rules. So I shouldn't laugh that hard, but that was a great delivery, Julia.
JULIA: So Merlin tells all these dukes and lords and whatnot, like, "Okay, sword, it's magic. And whoever is fit to rule England will be able to pull it from the stone, but no one else."
AMANDA: You know what? It is a very, very ingenious way to respond to a crisis of succession, which has taken down almost every empire that there is or has been.
JULIA: Exactly. And every cult that we've talked about on the show—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —in the past as well.
AMANDA: It's like, "Don't worry about who's the son and who's not the son and who's good and who's not good. It's the one that deserves it, man."
JULIA: So, of course, all the nobles from across the land go and try to pull the sword from the stone. They get all of their own sons. No one can do it. Eventually, the sword kind of pretty much forgotten for, like, a couple of decades and then— or at least a decade, and then England falls into more and more disrepair and ruin. Now, during this time, Arthur is being raised by Sir Ector and is also being mentored by Merlin in secret. He also has something of a rivalry with the natural son of Sir Hector, who is older than Arthur, named Sir Kay.
AMANDA: Oh, I bet Sir Kay fucking hated when the fated King of Future England came to live with his daddy.
JULIA: Well, I don't know that Ector told Kay that that was the situation.
AMANDA: But he was the, you know, new young thing.
JULIA: Yes, I think it was a real— like, everyone kind of thought that this was Ector's, like, you know, bastard son or something like that.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: But Amanda, remember the seneschal who gets all the land in Gaul, also Kay. Hmm.
AMANDA: Oh. They patched up their differences.
JULIA: Well, you'll see. One day, they are holding a tournament in London, which also happens to be where Merlin put the sword in the stone, by the way. Westminster.
AMANDA: It was in Westminster?
JULIA: Yep, yep, yep.
AMANDA: I didn't know that.
JULIA: So it's also supposed to, like, be in a churchyard. That's the version where it's like, "And Jesus Christ says this guy's the king."
AMANDA: I see, I see.
JULIA: So at this point, Arthur is sort of acting as squire for Kay, who is competing in this tournament. Kay asks Arthur, at one point, to be like, "Okay, go return to our lodgings. I left my sword in the room. I have a duel coming up, like, as part of this tournament. I need you to go get my sword." So Arthur runs off to this, like, little hotel that they're staying at, this lodge that they're staying at and tries to get into their chambers, but they're locked and he can't get inside.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: And he's like, "Ah, shit. My adopted brother who doesn't like me is going to be so pissed about this situation." He's running back to the tournament grounds to kind of, like, tell him like, "I can't get the sword," but he doesn't want to show up empty-handed. And so—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —as he's running back, he passes this churchyard and he sees this big rock that's got an anvil in it. He's like, "Well, there's a sword."
AMANDA: Is that is how it happens, Julia?
JULIA: That is how it happens.
AMANDA: That's crazy.
JULIA: So he does not understand the significance. Remember, he's like 15, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Since essentially the sword has been forgotten about for about 15 years or so now, because once everyone realized they couldn't pull it out, they're like, "This isn't important." So he goes and he pulls the sword from the stone and he takes it with him.
AMANDA: And he's like, "Good— don't worry, boss. I got your coffee. Starbucks was closed, but I went to Dunkin' and I got you an Americano."
JULIA: Exactly. So, again, he returns to Kay at the tournament grounds. He's like, "Couldn't get your sword. Sorry about that. Came across this one. Here it is." And Kay, who's older than Arthur, looks at the sword and he's like, "The fuck is this?"
AMANDA: "You did what now?"
JULIA: "I know what this is. You don't know what this is? Okay." So he goes, obviously recognizes the significance of the sword, goes to his father and says to Sir Ector, "Look what Arthur fucking did." So Ector takes them both back to the churchyard with the sword and the stone and tells Arthur to put it back, which he does. And then he's like, "Okay, Kay, you try now." And Kay goes, "Okay," and tries, can't do it.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: And he's like, "Okay, Arthur, pull it out again." And Arthur's like, "Got it."
AMANDA: "Is this a prank?"
JULIA: And he's like, "Okay, so that means Arthur is supposed to be the rightful king," which doesn't make a lot of sense because again, Ector knows that Arthur is the heir to Uther, so he should know.
AMANDA: He is the rightful king.
JULIA: So he's like, "Arthur, you're going to be king. What I would love for you to do is I want you to swear that you're going to make Kay your seneschal and that you will be lenient and understanding to any dishonorable behavior Kay might show in the future."
AMANDA: Okay, it's the parents in the Get Along shirt. He's like—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —"Okay, you're going to have to do this together and you're going to need a little bit of understanding." And I think that's good parenting.
JULIA: Exactly. And so Arthur kind of, like, shrugs and was like, "Okay. You know, I'm a fair and trusting ruler."
AMANDA: "I'm 15."
JULIA: "I'm 15 and I am noted to be fair and trusting, so—"
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: "—that sounds good to me." So they then gather a bunch of the other lords and also the archbishop. 'Cause, again, remember all the Lords are in town because either they or their sons are competing in this tournament, which is great.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: They gather all these nobles around and the Archbishop, and Arthur pulls the sword out of the stone in front of them, proving that he is the rightful king. Now, some of these nobles have a little bit of a hard time accepting this. And so they kind of do, like, essentially, Amanda, a funny, little Trinity thing where they're like, "Okay, well, we don't really believe that this is the case. What we're gonna do is we're all gonna come back a year from now and we're gonna watch him pull the sword out of the stone again."
AMANDA: Okay. I mean, I guess if you're confident that's true, then you'll still be true a year from now.
JULIA: Exactly. Which is also frustrating because, like, again, you guys have been without a ruler for 15 years. Maybe you'd be excited that, like, you know, the chaos of the political system is going to be more organized now, but no. So they come back a year later, he pulls it out of the stone again. They're like, "Okay, one more time, one more time. We'll meet back up here a year again and then you do it one more time." And so he does. So three times he pulls it out in front of the lords and they finally accept that he is the rightful king. And so he is then inaugurated as the king and he begins his rule.
AMANDA: At, a guess, slightly more understandable 17 years old.
JULIA: Or, like, I'm not sure if he becomes king at 15, so he pulled the sword out of the stone at 13 and then becomes king at 15. Or if it's 15 and then he becomes king at 17.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: 15 is important regardless. Early on, he kind of has a part where he gets into conflict with a lot of the local lords, but one of the most important early king stories that we get about Arthur is the story of where he goes to receive Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake. But Amanda, I think we're gonna have to save that story for our next King Arthur episode.
AMANDA: Is it about the Lady of the Lake?
JULIA: It is indeed.
AMANDA: Yay! I love her and not just from the monologue in Monty Python's Holy Grail.
JULIA: Now, before we wrap up Amanda, would you like a little poetry corner courtesy of Lord Tennyson?
AMANDA: Oh, my God. Yes, please.
JULIA: So this is from his poem, the Idylls of the King from 1869, titled The Coming of Arthur. "For many a petty king ere Arthur came. Ruled in this isle and ever waging war. Each upon each other, wasted all the land. And still from time to time the heathen host swarmed overseas, and harried was left. And so there grew great tracts of wilderness, wherein the beast was ever more and more. But man was less and less, 'till Arthur came. For first Aurelius lived and fought and died, and after him King Uther fought and died, but either failed to make the kingdom one. And after these King Arthur for a space, and through the puissance of his Round Table, drew all their petty princedoms under him. Their king and head, and made a realm, and reigned."
AMANDA: You know, Julia, these 19th century poets really know how to, like, end on a rhyme that feels like Simone Biles or Jordan Chiles sticking a landing. You know what I mean? It's like, "Yes."
JULIA: Yeah, for sure. Shout out Tennyson. We mentioned him in the Merlin episode how he was like—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —"And I'm Merlin now."
AMANDA: All right.
JULIA: And we're like, "Okay, Tennyson, whatever you say."
AMANDA: Those same guys—
JULIA: So—
AMANDA: —all had a late in life turn toward mysticism. I'm looking at you, Yates. It was a lot.
JULIA: So, Amanda, that's what I've got us to start off this series. As you can probably tell, it's gonna be a lot for us to cover, but I am really excited to dig into Arthurian legend and learn a lot more about all of this with all of you along the way.
AMANDA: And Julia, I think we need the input of our Round Table on this series name. My best two ideas are All About Arthur, just because I'm thinking about alliteration. And secondly, The Myths of the Round Table. So I think that together, those two, your contribution, and whatever our listeners come up with, we're gonna know by our next episode, and these are gonna come out monthly, what exactly the series will be called.
JULIA: That sounds good to me. And now remember when you come across a sword in a churchyard and your boss is telling you to hurry up, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
JULIA: Later, Satyrs.
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