Appalachian Folklore w/ Chuck Corra
/Appalachia is a hotbed of spooky things - ghost stories, UFO sightings, well known cryptids. But what is it about this region that makes it so mysterious? We’re joined by Chuck Corra of the Appodlachia podcast to discuss what it is that makes us so fascinated with Appalachia!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of slavery, indentured servitude, gun violence, death, racism, homophobia, violence, discrimination,
Guest
Chuck Corra is the host of Appolachia, a progressive-leftist podcast and media platform about Appalachian culture and politics. They believe accents are sexy, John Brown is a hero, unions are good, and redneck is a term of endearment.
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- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
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AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And today, we are joined by the fabulous Chuck Corra of the podcast media platform Appodlachia. Chuck, welcome to the show.
CHUCK: Thank you for having me. It's such an honor to be on here. I'm so excited.
JULIA: We are so excited to have you, particularly here to talk about something that is near and dear to our hearts that I think we realized very early on in starting the podcast. Appalachia is, I would say, a hotbed of creepy things. Would you agree with that statement, Chuck?
CHUCK: Oh, yeah. Very, very much so. Probably— I mean, I know that some people would debate this depending on what region of the country they're from, but I would argue that Appalachia has some of the best and most creepy things, cryptids, ghosts, UFOs, unidentified other phenomena. You name it, the woods out here have it.
JULIA: Absolutely agree. I think every time we get, like, a listener-submitted story or we kind of touch around the pool that is like West Virginia folklore or Appalachia folklore, we just like see the creepiness of the shadows of the deep, and we're like, "Ooh, I don't know, how deep do we want to get into that?" I am really excited to have you here to talk about that. But before we really get into the nitty -gritty of it all, how about you tell people a little bit about yourself and what you do?
CHUCK: So my name is Chuck Corra, as you mentioned. I am the co-founder and host of the Appodlachia Podcast and also manage our media platforms on all social media. I started this with my former roommate back in late 2019, because he had just run a campaign for local office in West Virginia and I was managing his campaign.
JULIA: Nice.
CHUCK: The issues that we were talking about were issues that we really cared about. We wanted to continue that conversation because unfortunately, he was a Democrat running in a really red area. He outperformed any other Democrat that ever ran in that district but still came up short. So we just were like, "You know, there's no real, like, media presence for representing Appalachian voices, especially those that tend to be on the left." And so we were like, "Why don't we start a podcast? We're two white guys. That's what we do when you're in your mid to late 20s." So we took that plunge. And I think we started right before the pandemic. So that was, I think, fortunate timing for us and had a lot of success doing that. And since then, the show has evolved somewhat. He's had to take a leave for work-related purposes and can no longer do the podcast, but we're still in touch quite a bit. And I think, like, what I've tried to do with it is show a different side of Appalachia that most people haven't seen, introduce people to, like, the important work that's happening in the region, mutual aid, other types of work that people don't see because it doesn't get covered by the mainstream media and also provide a, you know, a left voice in an area that is often characterized as being very right wing. So I think what we try to do is seek to show some of the nuance for a region that is very complicated. It is a lot more complicated than it is being portrayed. It is a 13-state region that goes clear from upper western New York down right to the edge of the Mississippi Delta, so you don't get much more diverse and different than that.
AMANDA: And I just want to point out that my personal Bingo card of drinking for this particular episode includes unions, accents, ecological racism, and let me just say, spoonbread?
CHUCK: Oh. Well, then, we're gonna be hammered before, like, 10 minutes into this.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: First of all, controversial question of, what is Appalachia? There is like— you know, the— I— there's not really a great agreed upon definition. The government, the federal government, has a defined region, which was— it's a political map. It's 423 counties that span those 13 states. But it roughly aligns with like, you know, the Appalachian Mountain Range, like the cultural region of Appalachia, especially central Appalachia, and covers places like eastern Kentucky, all of West Virginia, Central and Western PA, Southwest Virginia, Western North Carolina, et cetera. So it's in that stretch of the country. And the reason why that definition from the federal government exists is because it's a region that was left behind for so long.
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: And the 1950s and '60s, that region was completely pretty much shut off from the rest of the country. The interstate highway system hadn't reached it yet. It was a bunch of people living and just trying to get by.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: And so The Appalachian Regional Commission was established in order to divert federal funds to that region. And it's been, in my opinion, a— an enormous success despite its flaws.
JULIA: Yeah. I think if you are interested in the historical, I would say, hardships that the region has gone through. One, your episode on This Guy Sucked, one of our sister shows here at Multitude is a fantastic encapsulation of that. But your podcast is also a fantastic encapsulation of what exactly that history looks like. So I would encourage our listeners to definitely go check out your podcast, learn a little bit more about the region itself and the history, because I do think it really informs the urban legends and folklore that comes out of that region.
CHUCK: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.
JULIA: So Chuck, let's sort of dive into— you— I want to talk about the historical stuff as well as the general folklore and urban legends that come out of there. But I want to ask, before we do that, what was your experience with folklore, urban legends, superstitions growing up Appalachia?
CHUCK: That's a great question. I don't think I've ever been asked that before either.
JULIA: How?
CHUCK: It's shocking, I know. So—
AMANDA: We've covered, like, church lock-ins, but Julia and I were, you know, suburban Catholic girls—
CHUCK: Oh, God.
AMANDA: —going to sleepovers. So, like, we really need to, you know, expand our understanding of what happens in sleepovers with different kinds of kids.
CHUCK: Church lock-ins. That brings me back. Wow. So I think mine, I didn't really get a lot of it from, like, my direct family or my friends. What I— really, my experience was with— was being in Boy Scouts, I think. And that's really where a lot of these sort of niche hyper-local paranormal stories and experiences come from. So I was in Boy Scouts for a long time. I got my Eagle Scout when I was, like, 16 or 17.
JULIA: Nice.
CHUCK: Throughout all that, like you're camping a lot and, you know, you have older guys that are trying to scare younger kids and they'll tell all these stories. There are these very bizarre stories they'd tell that were very specific to a camp that I went to called Camp Kootaga. There was one about the— they called him the Moss Man, and I don't really know a lot about it other than it was people who claimed to see sightings of a man who looked like he was covered in moss running through camp screaming.
JULIA: Oh, interesting.
CHUCK: Which was very bizarre. And then, this is such a ridiculous name. There is another creature called the Wampa Skinny.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: And I would— I honestly have not researched that creature, so I want to— so I need to see if there's actually any information about it online because I've— it's literally just from word of mouth. But it was something that was supposed to haunt the camp at Camp Kootaga and would come down and take campers from their bunks at night and bring them up on top of the mountain there.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: Because there was a— and I don't know. To be honest with you, if this is a real story or a folklore story, it could be maybe a mix of both. But there are these very small caves, like a cave system at the camp that I went to, which is right outside of Parkersburg where I grew up in West Virginia. And they were called the wind caves, I think, because when they were still open—
JULIA: Ooh.
CHUCK: —before they were closed off, wind would blow through them and you could kind of hear, like, whistle sounds.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Oh. So the literal background of every horror movie that anyone has ever dreamed of?
CHUCK: Exactly.
AMANDA: They said, "Let's put a bunch of kids down there."
JULIA: Seems like a great idea.
CHUCK: It's a great comment. Throw them in a cave and see what happens. Yeah, exactly. The tale went that kids either got lost in the caves or got lost and died or something like that happened and they ended up closing off the caves, and that was sort of the origin story of the Wampa Skinny. I wish I knew more about it, but that was what was told to us. And when I was in, like, sixth grade or something, I think, six or seventh grade, I was definitely on the verge of being too old to be sort of over that, but not quite. So I was like, "Are these guys— are they pulling my leg here? Are they being for real? What is happening? Is this a real thing? Am I going to die at night? I don't know."
JULIA: I will say, I am familiar with the Wampus cat, which is—
CHUCK: Yes.
JULIA: —a fun, little folklore thing and definitely, I believe the term comes from like a native term from the area. But what I remember from this is it was essentially like a woman was transformed because usually, it's like the betrayal of a lover into a cat-like creature and then gets her revenge, essentially.
CHUCK: Yeah.
JULIA: But I really like the idea of it being like this transformation of a bunch of children, perhaps?
CHUCK: It's interesting to think about now what it could have evolved into. I hope they're still telling that story, too.
JULIA: Me, too.
CHUCK: I think the Wampus cat was like a Cherokee legend, if I recall correctly. Yeah.
JULIA: Yes, I believe so. I want to say there's a couple of different maybe tribes that have relationships with that particular spirit and story, but I'm not entirely sure off the top of my head. Your Moss Man story reminded me of another one that I was looking at in preparation for this interview, which was the Vegetable Man, which sounds very similar to what you're describing. And I believe is also a West Virginia story. And it was— I'm just looking at my notes right now. So this was a— first written down in 1968. It was a humanoid creature that supposedly made a high-pitched jabbering noise and then when they saw it, it appeared to look like a tall humanoid creature covered in green foliage with a vegetable-like head and leafy limbs.
CHUCK: That one— that one's— one I know little about, but I've heard— they also have like a Veggie Man Festival that I think was recently started.
JULIA: Yes.
CHUCK: Which is really cool.
JULIA: Yeah, just last year.
CHUCK: Yeah. Yeah. And our friend Liz Pavlovich [10:50] who does a lot of really cool cartoon work with cryptids, I think was designing some of their—
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
CHUCK: —branding for that. Yeah.
JULIA: So cool.
CHUCK: —that sounds like something— I'm just speculating wildly here. That sounds like something that a parent would come up with in order to try to get their kids to eat more vegetables, like Veggie Man is going to come after you. But it— these stories are not morphing into wider folklore. There's so many that are these amorphous beings like that, like the Wampus cat, like Dogman.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: I mean, it's so interesting. And I'd never really learned about many of those cryptids until more recently when I started doing the podcast. But there's so much folklore that comes out, especially of West Virginia and Southern Appalachia, that is so fascinating and kind of in this respect, humorous about the region. And I think is what makes it special.
JULIA: There's always going to be a boogeyman figure in any culture that you're referring to.
CHUCK: For sure.
JULIA: But there is something about the sort of, like, melting pot origin of Appalachian folklore that I think is really interesting and creates these almost slightly comical characters, like the Vegetable Man, for example. Or like even one that we've talked about on the show before, which is Bloody Bones and Rawhead, which are extremely spooky but also, like, have a certain amount of comedy to them. Like it's a lot of like takes his head off and throws it at people and, you know, that's— jumping out of trees at folks. Like, there is a certain amount of like, "We're telling these stories to children so we have to make it just a little bit funny and a little less horrifying so that they're not just absolutely scarred for the rest of their life."
CHUCK: Yeah, absolutely.
JULIA: Like, I love the hyper specificity of your particular tales and how they tend to be, like, just slight variations or just iterations of other sort of well-known stories. And I think that is something that is incredibly interesting about urban legends and folklore in general, is that it's one tale but a thousand ways to tell it, right?
CHUCK: And there's all these common threads because I think so much of it comes from people, especially when a lot of these sightings supposedly happened back in the '50s and '60s, where obviously that was way before internet, that was before a lot of widespread television. People were— you know, they were not as exposed— especially if you lived in Appalachia, you were not as exposed to a lot of the rest of the world. And so you could see something that could seem out of place and it could just catch wildfires of story— I mean, this is stuff that people— the local newspapers would cover all the time, especially if you look at like Mothman, you can find dozens of local news stories from the Point Pleasant—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: —Publications, and I think even from like the Charleston Gazette at the time talking about these sightings because—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: —they also coincided at the time with this big surge in UFO sightings around that time. And it would have been so fascinating to live back then and just understand the temperature gauge of people living around there. I think there was a real palpable fear, especially when you talk about like the Mothman and the Flatwoods monster and those types of creatures that—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —you know, coincide with a lot of other horrific events. And there is like a common denominator, though, that I've noticed, which is— it kind of makes me roll my eyes a little bit, of the people that are trying to explain it as not paranormal. They always go back to the barn owl explanation, which drives me crazy.
JULIA: Hmm. You're like— and you're like, "Okay, here's the description for the Flatwoods monster, 10-foot tall, floating off the ground, glowing eyes, weird spade-shaped head, metallic body."
CHUCK: Exactly.
JULIA: "You think that was a barn owl? What are we talking about here?" And to your point, Chuck, like, the Flatwoods Monster— we recently did an episode, so it's still kind of fresh in my mind, but the Flatwoods monster got written about in Life Magazine.
CHUCK: That is wild.
JULIA: And so, like, it's not even just like, "Oh, yeah, you can find a lot of, like, local reports about, like, The Mothman or Flatwoods
monster," which I would say are probably the biggest West Virginia Appalachian folklore monsters, right? I just think it's so fascinating that this captured the national attention as much as it did.
CHUCK: With respect to the Flatwoods monster international, that story in particular, it fascinates me. I'm still, to this day, trying to peel back the layers of the onion to really understand how it got pervasive in Japanese culture.
JULIA: Yeah.
CHUCK: But I was talking with somebody who worked at the museum, Flatwoods Monster Museum, they put me in touch with this woman whose name is [15:19]. She is from Japan, lives there, and has traveled to West Virginia to go to the Flatwoods Monster Museum before on, I think, multiple occasions. Because it's such a pervasive thing in Japanese culture, like I remember playing Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, which was you know the second Legend of Zelda title on the N64 and the Flatwoods Monster made an appearance in that game which is—
JULIA: Wild.
CHUCK: —wild to me. And not just that game, there were other games, too. I think I actually have a list of some of them here. I don't know where it is at the moment.
JULIA: You got all of the Fallout 76 has pretty much every Appalachian cryptic you can think of, I'll say that much.
CHUCK: Fallout— yes, yes, absolutely. Fallout 76, there were some games even from the '90s, Japanese manga, and anime has a lot of references to the Flatwoods monster and art. And it was referred to— I think a literal translation over there is like the three-meter monster because of its height.
JULIA: Because it's 10 feet tall. Yeah, that makes sense.
CHUCK: Yeah.
AMANDA: That has such a good ring to it. I'm not going to lie. That's awesome.
CHUCK: Yeah. I'll— and it kind of makes it almost more imposing to think about—
AMANDA: Yeah.
CHUCK: —because you're focusing on how huge it is. But it's really interesting to see how much it's been interwoven into their culture over time. And I think part of that, from my understanding, based on talking with her, was because at the— in the '60s and '70s, Japanese culture was heavily influenced by UFO sightings. And that—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —particular entity stuck out, partially because, visually, it just really is well suited for, like, Japanese pop culture, like anime and things like that. It had that kind of look and feel to it and it just took off.
JULIA: Yeah, that shape, I think, is really sort of— it stands out, but it also kind of feels like every mascot you've seen in Japanese culture.
CHUCK: Yeah.
JULIA: Like, ever. Like if you're any bit familiar with Japanese mascot culture, you're like, "Yeah, a Flatwoods monster totally makes sense for something that they would enjoy.:
CHUCK: Oh, for sure.
JULIA: I'm just thinking about it now, like that— like, bobbly style head is just perfect for that kind of thing.
AMANDA: Chuck, one of the things that I have long thought about Appalachia, as somebody who is a northerner and not from the region, is that a lot of the geography of the region contributes to folklore, as it does in so many cultures. And as a student of union history and labor organizing in the U.S., I think it's also no accident. That somewhere where folks can meet in secret, where it's hard to surveil, where the landscape is both so ripe for capitalistic extraction, but also for workers needing to organize and fight back via means of sabotage, illegal strikes, all kinds of things that we have to do in order to, you know, fight back against a government that is not on worker's sides. I think all those things also contribute to folklore where there are micro regions. It's hard to get information about other places. There are all kinds of weather phenomena that don't happen elsewhere in the U.S. So how does that kind of hypothesis sound to you? Is that something you've
considered before?
CHUCK: I think it's very credible, especially just given the history of the region when it comes to— let's just use coal mining as an example because it's so pervasive and what a lot of people are familiar with. But you think about back to the early 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, before the U.S. had many— any really federal labor protections. And the environment that most families who worked in the coal mines were in Central Appalachia was horrific. It was literally referred to by a— an attorney for a coal company as indentured servitude. They referred to them as indentured servants.
AMANDA: It's just saying the quiet part out loud, y'all.
CHUCK: Yeah, exactly. And so these people's lives, they were really miserable. They were fully controlled by these company machines. And a lot of them died at the hands of the company, whether it be in the mines, whether it be because Baldwin-Felts agents shot them because they were trying to organize a union, when they brought in machine guns and did that at one point. So there— when you think about folklore from the standpoint of like just ghosts and hauntings in general, that is a ripe environment for some of that to take place. But also because they had to establish their own types of communication networks. You mentioned before, when it came to union organizing, that was an extremely dangerous activity back then. I mean, you had these rich coal companies that were hiring these agents to go through house by house, houses—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —by the way, that were owned by the coal companies and be questioning people and trying to root out people who were doing union organizing. A lot of them were successful in that and they put them out on the streets and God knows what happened to those families after that. But it just creates a really powerful environment for folklore and for storytelling in general. Storytelling is such a— an important part of Appalachian culture because back in the early days, before there was a lot of access to outside entertainment and things like that, people entertained each other by telling stories. And I think that's where a lot of our best folklore comes from. And it's also just interwoven into our culture in general and still is a part of it today.
JULIA: I think I need to sit with that for a moment. Why don't we take a quick break and grab our refill?
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AMANDA: Hey, everybody, it's Amanda, and welcome to the refill. I want to extend a special welcome to someone who recently tried out the Spirits Patreon, who went to patreon.com/spiritspodcast and was like, "Hey, I want to, I want to take a sip." If you're like— go to a bartender and you say like, "Hey, could I try that ale that's on top before I order a full pint?" And they're like, "Yeah, of course." And then you try it. And you're like, "Great. Yes, please." That is what a free trial is on Patreon, where you get full access, baby, full access to our entire back catalog, not to give Julia a heart attack, but she's not listening right now, almost 10 years' worth of Patreon content. And you can access it all at patreon.com/spiritspodcast with a one week free trial. Totally no pressure. You can decide it's not for you, but if you— I don't know, maybe you're traveling recently and you are coming up and you want to check out some of the bonus urban legend episodes that we've been posting. Maybe you want to scroll all the way back to Amanda's Poetry Corner. Maybe you want to look through some of the recipe cards and figure out what you're going to make, cocktail or mocktail, this holiday season. Get it all at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And thank you, as always, too— I don't even want to say our barbacks because, I mean, like a barback, you are essential to our operations. But also, I think you get a lot more respect than barbacks do, which they should. You know what I mean. Our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Hannah, Scott, Anne, Matthew, Lily, and Wil. And our legend-level patrons, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Audra, Sarah, Bea Me Up Scotty, Morgan, Bex, Rikoelike, Chibi Yokai, and Michael. Folks, we would love to hear some more urban legends from you. We have some real bangers coming up, I promise you. And trust me, you are going to want to keep up with the like of the family Winchester just to sprinkle in a few crumbs coming up here. So if you would love to, I don't know, scare us, to hear your name on the show, to have us react to your take. We love to hear them. Send them in to spiritspodcast@gmail.com or we have a handy form on our website, spiritspodcast.com/contact. Tons going on over at Multitude, including some brand-new episodes of everyone's favorite internet culture podcast, which doesn't ignore the fact that the internet sort of impacts everything that we are doing here in real life, a statement now that feels very different than it did a few years ago when the show started. But it is honestly the place where I engage in what's happening with things that I think are silly, like AI and tech edge lord bros taking over the U.S. government, et cetera, et cetera, because I know that tech journalist Amanda Silberling and attorney/sci fi author Isabel J. Kim, Esq. are going to take me hilariously, funnily, like I'm hanging out with my sisters through what's happening on the internet and why it matters in real life. So you should check out Wow If True in your podcast app, episodes every other Wednesday. So every other week, you get Spirits and Wow If True. We are sponsored this week by United by Blue. Now, this is a website that I love to shop for gifts on because they are dedicated to two things. Firstly, selling fewer things. So they try to sell things that will last a lifetime. And then secondly, they also remove a pound of trash from the world's oceans and water raise with every product sold. That's 4 .4 million pounds of trash removed so far. And they have incredible, sustainably made gorgeous gifts. They have things under $25, things under $50, and gorgeous stuff under $100 that honestly I would love to receive. My daily carry backpack is from them. I have some awesome wool socks from them. And I am full up on water bottles, but if I ever need to replace them, you know I'm going into United by Blue. They've also been kind enough to make a discount code just for Spirits listeners. So if you go to unitedbyblue.com and use the code SPIRITS, you, yes you, will get 20% off your purchase.
AMANDA: We are sponsored this week by Soon To Be Mythical. Folks, pay attention, you're gonna love this one, okay? This is a conservation-driven apparel and accessories brand, featuring endangered animals and also some cryptids. Now, the endangered animals are perhaps soon to be mythical, right? We're trying to prevent them from becoming mythical by conserving the environment and conserving the species. And so when this brand reached out to us to sponsor the show, Julia and I said, "Holy crap, I don't think we've ever seen a brand that is more in line with Spirits." You can get a T-shirt with a beautiful logo that says, "Mermaids Against Microplastics." You can get a T-shirt with a yeti on it, holding up a sign against climate change. You can even get a beautiful, very soft jersey T-shirt with Mothman on it. It says, "Mothman: Endangered," and then, "Only appears before disasters." I just— I can't believe this is a thing. I'm so happy it's a thing, up to 25% of proceeds from the shirts that they sell and the accessories and things will be donated to non-profit organizations that assist with the conservation of endangered species and they print stuff on demand, which I love. There's not like, you know, hundreds of T-shirts and sweatshirts lying around in the warehouse. They make them as you order them. And they hope, actually, that the business is ultimately irrelevant because they help the animals become so common and thriving that wearing a T-shirt that says, "Soon To Be Mythical" makes no sense. So help them postpone the myth, okay? Visit postponethemyth.com and use the code SPIRITS10 to get 10% off your order. That's postponethemyth.com, code SPIRITS10 for 10% off. I love the stuff, I love my T-shirt. It is so smooth. It is so soft. postponethemyth.com, SPIRITS10, 10% off.
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JULIA: We are back. And Chuck, one of the things that we love to ask our guests is, what have you been enjoying lately, whether that is cocktail, mocktail, coffee creation-wise? What has been your drink of choice?
CHUCK: I really don't drink much alcohol anymore and I'm not a huge coffee drinker. But I really have been taking to like THC CBD Seltzers lately.
JULIA: Yeah.
CHUCK: I don't know that I have a— I'm glad that you all like it. I don't know I have a particular brand that I like, but I really like a combination of THC and CBD at the end of a day, because it really helps me relax. And my brain— I have ADHD and all these other things and like I never get anything to slow down in there.
JULIA: Yep.
CHUCK: It's like things are bouncing on a wall, like a ping pong ball all day. And I feel like that is something that helps me quiet it down and relax.
AMANDA: Hmm.
CHUCK: And so I've really been getting into those and having, you know, one or half of one every night pretty much. So those have been what I've really been into lately.
JULIA: Hell yeah. I've— I think I said this recently on the podcast or maybe it was just in my personal life. My only issue with those, but you kind of address that, is they're always like slightly too many milligrams—
CHUCK: Yeah.
JULIA: —for a small person like me. So I would have to split those or find, I guess, a smaller dosage, which they don't tend to sell too often. But I love them. They're really good.
AMANDA: All right, guys, business idea. We create a new company town in a cannabis farming— why are you laughing, Julia?
JULIA: Nothing.
AMANDA: In a cannabis farming town in Appalachia.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Make sure that we build great housing that we own, issues sort of, like, stock certificates that people can use to buy necessities that we make sure we cut them off from the outside world. Oh, I'm discussing Amazon.
CHUCK: Oy.
JULIA: Whoops.
AMANDA: Yeah, but anyway, I do think shorty THC Seltzers would be a very good business idea.
JULIA: Yes, a little shorty, like a—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Like just a little guy. Just like—
CHUCK: I love it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: What are those terrible mixed cocktails that look like little balls?
AMANDA: Like the canned margaritas, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah, but— yeah, exactly what I was thinking about.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Perfect.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JULIA: Incredible. So, Chuck, one of the things that I wanted to ask about as well, and I think it actually does tie into the sort of conversation that we're having re the working conditions that a lot of these mining companies created for their workers. One thing that I tend to think about is folk medicine when it comes to Appalachia and sort of the origin of that as a way of taking care of communities that maybe don't have enough access to, you know, traditional Western medical care. Were there any, like, particular folk medicine, superstition sort of things that either you grew up with or that piqued your interest in, like, learning more about the folklore of the region?
CHUCK: Yeah, that's a great question. And it's one that I've learned more about later. I— it wasn't something I really grew up with. My family, we were in sort of the rust belt-y part of Appalachia. My dad was a steel worker, and his dad was a steel worker, and he did, like, day labor stuff. And so I didn't get much exposure to it until later in life, but when I started doing this podcast, I found out a lot more about it. And it's definitely something that was very common in the region. I think still, to some extent, people practice it. It's not quite as prevalent, but—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: —you know, back in the early odds, it definitely was. And I think there's a book series that talks— that discusses folk medicine a little bit, the Foxfire Book series, which is—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —a lot of— I mean, it's a whole, like— I think like eight or nine volume series, but part of it talks about home remedies and folk medicine, and it's pretty wild to read. Like, some of them are really, like, out there, like the whole "Take a stick of butter and put it under your tongue," or something like that.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: Then spin around backwards, that kind of stuff. But, I mean, some of it is legit. And I think it is because Appalachia for so long was shut off from the rest of the world, and they had to come up with their own remedies to take care of themselves. Appalachia is very resilient and self-sufficient region because of that. I think because of, one, how shut off it's been, and to some extent, and many parts still is, and two, because of how much it's been exploited over the years by politicians, by extractive oil and gas companies. And so I think that's led to people having to develop their own means to survive and to aid themselves. And I think now in the present day, there is more of— it's almost partly an industry in some respects. I mean, ginseng is a crop that is very much harvested in Appalachia and is obviously used in many different things. And so I think it's come from like a folk medicine standpoint, but part— but some of it has evolved into an actual, you know, business practice for some people. I mean— and you have a lot of people that, you know, still do like herbal teas and like folk tonics, things like that, using goldenrod and blackwana, that kind of stuff. It really is, I think, more prevalent in central Appalachia where it's a little bit more cut off from the rest of the world. But it is something that's very interesting. And people, I think, still practice folk medicine as a way to maintain that level of, like, connection to the culture of Appalachia, which I think is really cool. Like, there's definitely people I've come across on TikTok that still do it and it's pretty interesting.
JULIA: Yeah. And I mean, like, there is such an interesting aspect, too, of something that used to be like oral tradition that has passed down from, like, the community elders or your grandparents or stuff like that is now getting much more public attention because of social media and places like TikTok and everything like that.
CHUCK: For sure.
JULIA: So it's almost like, "Oh, it's good because now even if these communities are cut off and—" you know, I'm sure Appalachia is full of sort of ghost towns and like slowly, you know, unfortunately, dying off communities.
CHUCK: Yeah.
JULIA: This idea that these traditions and these folk magic beliefs and the folk medicine won't die off because they're being preserved in a way that, you know, 20 years ago, we couldn't have possibly imagined.
CHUCK: Absolutely. It is really interesting to see how something specifically TikTok has brought that to the forefront and introduce so many people to different aspects of Appalachia that I guarantee they otherwise would not have any exposure to.
JULIA: Yeah.
CHUCK: And, you know, there is some exploitative nature of it.
JULIA: Sure.
CHUCK: Like, there's some people that are just doing it for the content or that may not have a connection to it that are just like, "I'm going to, you know, kayfabe this and see how many views I get." But for the most part, there are people who are genuine about it and want to share that part of their life and their culture with people. And I love that. I've actually— I've met so many people through TikTok and through Instagram who do those types of things, who are from very remote parts of Appalachia and that's been a real part of their lives, many of which identifies witches and which I think is awesome. I've always said that I stand 100% behind witches. I support them and I support what they do.
AMANDA: I'm really glad to get you on the record saying that, Chuck. It's very important.
CHUCK: Always. I've said that for years, and I continue to say that. There are queer witch covens in Appalachia, and I support them a thousand percent. And I just think that, like, it actually is a part of our culture. It really is. Like, witchery and stuff like that is very much part of our culture.
JULIA: Hell yeah. I love that. And part of that, too, I think, again, and we keep kind of circling back to it, I suppose, is this idea that Appalachia is such a— I'm always, like, curious about the phrase "melting pot" and whether or not that was a thing that they pushed on us in elementary school, like, from the 1960s on or if it's still something that, like, actually does kind of work.
CHUCK: Schoolhouse rocks.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I'm always curious to see like if that is actually a phrase we still want to use. But I do think that Appalachia is such a amalgamation of the various people who settled in that area, who came from other places, a lot of Europeans and stuff like that, and then brought that with native beliefs and how those sort of melded together. So I really do think that a lot of the, like, witchcraft traditions that are coming out of Appalachia and particularly, like, the queerness of the witchcraft that is coming out of Appalachia is sort of this natural progression of European and native traditions coming together in those regions.
CHUCK: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I think to your point, there's so many people don't really associate Appalachia with being diverse. And I mean, it— parts of it are very white. That's true. But I think that so much of it, there are cultural influences that I think people don't realize until you start peeling back some of the layers. I mean—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: —for example, you know, the reason why pepperoni rolls are a thing is because we had a lot of poor Italian immigrants who were working in the coal mines and they made pepperoni rolls because it was super cheap to make. It was just dough and pepperoni. And they brought them with them so they'd have something to eat when they worked in the mines. I mean, my family is from Syria. My great-grandfather immigrated from a small town outside of Damascus in 1900s.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: And to Cairo, West Virginia, which is a population of, like, -10 at this point. I have no idea how he ended up there. I'm not sure. I know there's a lot of Syrian and Lebanese people that live in West Virginia, as well as a lot of Indian Americans and Indian immigrants that have come to West Virginia and other parts of Appalachia. And so there's a lot of cultural amalgamation that is involved there and I think that that definitely influences a lot of the folklore, especially for the people that immigrated there early on in the 1800s and 1900s. And I wish that there was more information about my family. I think they really tried to very quickly assimilate into the culture and, like, they don't— like my grandfather barely spoke any Arabic at all—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: —which is disappointing. But I mean, I'm sure there's a story there. I don't really know what it is. But—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —I do think that that is a big part of it. And there's especially, like, native indigenous influences with that as well. In the present day, there's also a struggle to maintain that and make sure that there is a place for people who believe those things or who want to share that part of their culture with other people. I think there was a story— I mentioned queer Appalachian witches because there was a story that came out a couple years ago about— I don't know if they technically call it a coven. I— I'm not sure what the technicality is around that, but there's a group of queer witches that live in Appalachia, and they're trying to make that a space for themselves, even though a lot of the state laws and a lot of the people that live in and around there view what they do is actually evil or against their religious beliefs and don't believe that queer people should have the same rights as straight CIS people. And so I think that there's an effort to preserve that and make sure there is a place for that. And I really— I support and applaud anybody that is doing that and putting themselves out there to do that.
JULIA: I think this is a great time for us to talk about the variety, and there is quite a variety of cryptids that come out of Appalachia, particularly West Virginia. That tends to be like, I guess, the hotbed of this area. But what is it—
CHUCK: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —about this region besides the sort of beautiful amalgamation of different cultures that make up the region? What do you think it is about the region that, especially during the, like, '50s and '60s, it just exploded in terms of so many spooky things happening, whether that's UFOs or cryptids or ghost stories that were coming out of there?
CHUCK: Yeah, I think that the region is— and when I say the region, I think for the most part, the cryptid focus is generally like central Appalachia, West Virginia—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: —Kentucky, Tennessee, those places. I think that part of it is just the geography and the natural aspects of Appalachia, it's very, it's very remote. It's very hilly. It's— I mean, West Virginia in particular is 75% forest, so you have a lot of rural and enclosed areas where your imagination can just wander, first of all. I think the other thing is just—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: —there has been a archetype cultivated in culture about Appalachia as a mysterious place, a place that—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —you know, not a lot of people travel to Central Appalachia, one, because they don't have a reason to, but two, because it's very hard to get to sometimes. I mean, when I drive home to West Virginia, it takes a long time because there's not really a great system of main roads that'll get you there. And so I think that there— it's a region that is less known by other people, and so they have their preconceived ideas and notions, and that has made it a really good opportunity to fill in those gaps with folklore and with different beliefs and opinions about the region itself from the outside perspective. And from the inside perspective, I think there's just a cultural aspect of storytelling and storytelling lends itself to telling stories about supernatural. And so when you have those, and I think when you start to have, like, one cryptid, and somebody hears about it's really easy to see how that can evolve into, "Oh, I had a sighting of something different." And I mean, as to the diversity, there's also some aspects of like the historical nature of Appalachia and how that's lended to cryptids and other paranormal entities developing. I know, like, from the sense of, like, coal miners, like, there's been stories about phantom miners, like Tommyknockers, the goblins that lived in the old coal mines. I can't think of the— I think it's just the Kentucky goblin is the name of that one.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: And other hauntings and places where it may not be unique to Appalachia, but I think the setting and the place also adds to that. So I'm thinking of like the technical term is the Trans-Allegheny Lunatic Asylum. I know that's not a PC term for today's world, but these former mental institutions that were horrid, absolutely abysmal places to institutionalize people that really needed help. And that being nestled in this remote part of Appalachia, I think, naturally cultivates that environment where something— stories like that can take place and where experiences like that can take place. So I think that there's many aspects of the region that have lend itself to this. And it has to do with, like, the natural features of it, but it also has to do with the important history, like, we discussed.
JULIA: I'm always of two minds when discussing, like, hauntings, right? So from a purely, like, believer standpoint, this idea that, you know, immense trauma, immense suffering will lead to a haunting. Like, yeah, Appalachia has gone through some shit historically.
CHUCK: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: And therefore, we have this sort of haunted area. You know, it's particularly more likely to be haunted than other areas of the country, which, again, is, like, true, but also, you know, the United States has such a history of violence and, you know, discrimination and all of that, that you could—
CHUCK: For sure.
JULIA: —pretty much say that about any part of the country, more or less. However, from a non -believer, skeptic, but want to, like, understand why people tell ghost stories perspective, it's also this idea of, like, dealing with generational trauma in a way that is— you know, we can speak in metaphors. Like, we don't have to talk about the terrible things that happened necessarily, but we can talk about them through, "Oh, there's the ghost of the miner that died." That miner could be anyone, could be like a member of the person telling that story's family. It really kind of, I think, is dealing with the trauma and the, like, grief that comes out of something that is so horrific that you can't really reckon with it.
AMANDA: Well, it personalizes our history, right? Like—
JULIA: Yeah, exactly.
AMANDA: —it puts faces and narratives and, you know, backstories to the fact that we do live in a graveyard, right? Like, we do live in an environment shaped by the policies and people and events that came before us. But it's kind of hard to connect those as the direct results of human choices. The fact that, like, other people lived full lives and suffered, you know, just as we are or perhaps more. Whether it's, you know, a faceless ghost or miner or a woman in white or somebody's cousin's uncle, right, who we're talking about in the story. It relates us to the environment that we already have to make some kind of relationship with.
JULIA: Absolutely.
CHUCK: Yeah. It's something to fill in the gaps for people. We can't explain X, Y, Z, or what happened, and now we have an explanation. And speaking to the point about trauma, like, you look at our country's history with slavery and how much hauntings and paranormal experiences have come out of issues pertaining to slavery.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: Like, I can't think of the name of the person in New Orleans. Oh, my God. The house is named after her.
JULIA: Oh, the Marie LeVoe. Is that it?
CHUCK: Yeah, Marie Laveau.
JULIA: I want to make sure that's right.
CHUCK: I think— is— I think that's the one that was portrayed in the American Horror Story season with Kathy Bates, I'm pretty sure.
JULIA: Yeah, that was it.
CHUCK: That's the one that— I think of that a lot when it comes to just, like, the trauma that happens, the horrible things that are— like have been committed in the name of our country and just in general and how hauntings and how other paranormal experiences can emerge from that. I mean, in Appalachia— I mean, we've referenced coal mining and just like that environment of living under the rule of corporations—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —is a breeding ground for something like that. I also think that religion plays a part in it, too, a little bit.
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: Maybe not as directly, but I think it's an environment where, you know, religion has itself a paranormal aspect to it, like your belief in a divine being, perhaps, I think can give that— lead to that type of thinking. And so— and a reason I mentioned that is because I think the other places where ghost stories and other paranormal stories were very prevalent was when I was at church camp. And I went to a church camp in—
JULIA: Hmm.
CHUCK: —West Virginia in Hampshire County, so the Eastern Panhandle, very rural place nestled in the mountains right by the south branch of the Potomac River. It was very beautiful. And there was all these stories there about, "Oh, so-and-so here died long ago, and they haunt the upper floor of this lodge that we stayed in sometimes." I can't say— I don't— you know, there's obviously a logical explanation for things that I witnessed there, but I definitely had to stay by myself on the top floor of that lodge several nights one year when I was head counselor. And there were stories of people who had died in some of those rooms, in their sleep. It haunt the place. And I, on more than one occasion, heard pianos playing at night.
JULIA: Wow.
CHUCK: And so I don't have an explanation for that. I— I'm generally a skeptic when it comes to my own experiences. But I think that there is some religious trauma and also some religious type way of thinking that can lend itself to those experiences as well.
JULIA: Chuck, that's the kind of story we bring guests on for, so perfect. Thank you for that. I think we have time for, I would say, one more question, one more conversation. And I mentioned earlier, like, you know, West Virginia in particular tends to be that hotbed of cryptids and folklore and everything like that. But I want to give a sort of appreciation and shout out to the rest of Appalachia. And to this point, you know, probably the most famous cryptids that we could talk about from this region are going to be Mothman and the Flatwoods monster. But as someone who has been doing a lot of, like, research and a lot of studying of the various, like, creatures and cryptids and folklore from that region, is there a cryptid or creature or what have you that you think is underappreciated and needs a little bit more— like needs like a PR press release being like marketing campaign for this creature?
AMANDA: They need Zohran's social video team and—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —let's, let's begin with this.
CHUCK: I would take Zohran's social video team for all cryptids. That would be amazing.
AMANDA: Right?
JULIA: But I love their minds.
AMANDA: I want to date all of them. Like I don't even know who they are, but like— you know?
CHUCK: Yeah. Look, I mean, Braxie, like, I know she's in West Virginia, but she's had somewhat of a glow up. I think there's been some cultural appropriation with the Moss Man.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHUCK: I mean, even Build-A-Bear Workshop has taken his likeness now. So I think he probably just needs, like, a legal team for trademark purposes, but—
JULIA: He does.
CHUCK: —I don't—
AMANDA: Your culture is not a costume [46:34]
CHUCK: That's right. That is right. And we stand with Mothman and his honking caboose on his statue.
JULIA: We do.
AMANDA: His juicy ass.
CHUCK: I don't know a ton—I — like I have some details about this one, when I did a video on it a while back, but the Bell Witch of Tennessee is one that I think some people know about. Her name's been tossed around before, but I think could use a glow up similar to a Mothman or a Flatwoods monster. It's a very interesting story about a haunting of a family. I believe, actually, when I'm thinking of it, I think there was some indentured servitude or slavery involved with this. I could be wrong on that one, so I need to fact check it. But it was a haunting which spared of Robertson County, Tennessee, so that's like— you know, it's on the verge of Appalachia. We're going to call it Appalachia for the purposes of this. And it was a— it was like a poltergeist like phenomenon that would haunt this family, knocking on the words. Very similar to, like, the Conjuring type films where you— like you hear about these poltergeist. They're haunting these families. They're making their lives a living hell, saying the names of the people in the house. And there was even physical attacks like the John Bell, one of the Bell family people where the Bell witch's name comes from, was allegedly strangled and slapped by the spirit in his sleep. Other people were pinched and scratched by it. So, I mean, it was something that was very, you know, obviously to them, this is a living nightmare. But I feel like the Bell witch is one— in Tennessee where there's not as many cryptids and paranormal entities that are discussed as much. I think the Bell witch is one that the story is very interesting and it's very uniquely Tennessee and deserves a little bit more attention. I would also argue that the Sheepsquatch is one that deserves more attention.
JULIA: I'm sorry. The what?
CHUCK: The Sheepsquatch.
JULIA: Oh, my goodness.
AMANDA: That's new to us.
CHUCK: And the tricky part with some of these is that there's not a ton of information on them. Like, they'll find these books that are written by these people, but they're very— I don't know. Some of these books are wild and just rantings and ravings.
JULIA: Yeah.
CHUCK: But the Sheepsquatch was found or cited in West Virginia, Kentucky and Virginia. It was this, you know, this shaggy, horned sheep-like cryptid that haunted rural areas and had similar sightings as to the Mothman. And people— I mean, they called it Sheepsquatch, it looked like a giant humanoid sheep. And that's one where I would love to see more people get interested in, dive into it, find out more information. Because when I was doing some research on it, it was hard to find, I guess, reliable information on the Sheepsquatch. But it's one that really, I think, is primed for a glow up because it's just such a wild creature and really cool to think about, and I've seen people's interpretations of it in cartoon form, and it's hilarious. I used to have a sweatshirt with him on it.
JULIA: Awesome.
CHUCK: So I love the Sheepsquatch. I'd love to see a glow up for him as well.
JULIA: I also am going to put my money behind Sheepsquatch. I will donate to that campaign. I am so excited. I need more information. I want to say Bell Witch is also one that I really love and really enjoy, and has been, like, not in name but in details, I would say. Been the inspiration for a couple of, like, horror movies that I think our audience would probably be familiar with.
CHUCK: Yes.
JULIA: I think part of it was slight inspiration for the Blair Witch Project. And then also to your point about, like, the scratching and, like, following the family and stuff like that it was a light, not in name, but in detail, inspiration for the paranormal activity movies.
CHUCK: Hmm. That makes sense.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: But a lot of information out there about the Bell Witch, if you— hmm, maybe we'll do a Bell Witch episode sometime in the future. That seems like it would be fun.
AMANDA: And maybe we could do an Appodlachia-Spirits crossover around some of this, you know, marketing momentum for the Sheepsquatch. I think we got some options here.
JULIA: Yeah.
CHUCK: I would love to do that. Yeah.
JULIA: Well, Chuck, this was such a fantastic talk. I'm so glad that we had the opportunity to talk to you and hear more about Appalachian folklore and urban legends. And we really appreciate your insight into this. This was such a fantastic, fantastic conversation.
CHUCK: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been fun. I always love talking about these things because in a serious sense, they're a part of Appalachian culture because storytelling is a huge part of our culture and with that comes storytelling about paranormal things, about cryptids. And so I always love talking about them. I always love sharing those stories with people. And I just appreciate you all having me on. It's been a lot of fun.
JULIA: Oh, it was our absolute pleasure. Now, can you remind the folks at home where they can find you and your work?
CHUCK: Yes. On all podcast platforms and on all social media platforms, you can find us at Appodlachia, just search A-P-P-O-D-L-A-C-H-I-A and you will find us anywhere on those platforms. And you can follow us— my show comes out usually every two weeks now, but I'm posting regularly on social media. So, yeah, hope to see you there.
JULIA: Incredible. Thank you so much, Chuck.
CHUCK: Thank you.
AMANDA: An iconic follow. And folks, next time you are looking off into the fields and think, "Is that a human -sized sheep or what's going on over there?" Remember—
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
JULIA: Later, Satyrs.
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