Episode 243: Westworld, Robots, and AI (Myth Movie Night)
/Robots, androids, AI - the staples of our science fiction media actually have very historical and mythological inspiration! Join us as we discuss the 1973 movie, Westworld, and explore the origins of our robot interest.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, murder, violence, gun violence, existential crisis, divorce, sex, religious persecution, assault, genocide, apocalyptic scenarios, misogyny, incels, sexual assault, politics, wealth disparity, and kidnapping.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Wildfang. (And get $20 off a purchase of $100+, use code SPIRITS20)
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out HORSE: A podcast about ridiculous stories, internet drama, and some of the biggest and baddest personalities out there today—all from the world of basketball.
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 243: Westworld, Robots and AI for Myth Movie Night.
JULIA: And we're joined by Eric.
AMANDA: So much fun. It was amazing to get the team together for another non-urban legends episode and this is the 1973 Westworld film version. So we talk a little bit about the show, a lot about the movie. It was really fun. So Julia, excellent pick.
JULIA: Thank you. Thank you. I, you know what? I've been wanting to talk about, kind of, the roots of science fiction in mythology for a while. And this seemed like the perfect opportunity to do so because it's on HBO Max and you can go watch it right now.
AMANDA: I can't stream new patron Moira on HBO Max, but I, I do just want to welcome you to the crew. Thank you Moira for joining. You joined the ranks of supporting-producer level patrons; Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi.
JULIA: Yes, they are wonderful humans who are definitely not robots. At least we don't think they are? Ooh.
AMANDA: No. Even when you look at the hands, I'm like, I feel like I really can't tell. And of course our legend-level patrons; Audra, Clara, Drew, Jaybaybay, Ki, Lada, Lexus, Morgan, Morgan H., Mother of Vikings, Necroroyalty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. All whom Julia, always remember to thank the AI.
JULIA: You have to thank the AI. I don't care how intelligent you may think it is. Thank it anyway. Politeness. Politeness helps with ghosts and also robots.
AMANDA: It sure does. And Julia we got to hang out yesterday IRL which is very exciting.
JULIA: We did!
AMANDA: And you complimented the overalls I was wearing which also coincidentally is my recommendation for today. It's Wildfang.
JULIA: Oh, My Gosh, Wildfang. God, I love Wildfang so much. I have two full suits from Wildfang. And just, I need more excuses to wear them.
AMANDA: Yeah, Hey, our, our friend that need to not get married so often because that's just about sustainable right now. But people do need more formal occasions we can wear suits to, I think.
JULIA: Please. More gallows. Invite me to events that the Riddler would come and crash.
AMANDA: I completely agree. They are a queer clothing company that makes sizes zero to 20. They make like butch clothes, found clothes. Amazing, delicious floral button-downs, shirts that don't have a gap. So, if you're wearing a button down shirt and you have boobs, it's not going to do that boob gap thing that happens so often. And I basically emailed them was like, Hey, I'm gonna just promote you a lot. Can you please give our listeners a discount code? And they said yes. So if you want to get 20 bucks off a purchase of 100 bucks, you can use code Spirits 20 at wildfang.com.
JULIA: Thanks Wildfang. I love your clothing.
AMANDA: Extremely nice of you. We love you a lot. And that's a recommendation, check out Wildfang. Just look at the website, even. Delicious.
JULIA: Another recommendation that we have this week. You can't play basketball in cool femme suits, but you can listen to a podcast about basketball in cool femme suits.
AMANDA: You can look at WNBA players’ incredible suits that they wear into their basketball games. Which Horse covers because this is a podcast about the stories drama and personalities in basketball. Hosts, Adam Mamawala and Mike Schubert want everyone to know how unbelievable the history and culture of basketball is. And they are here to be like, Hey, you don't have to know every statistic about every team out there to think basketball is amazing and entertaining. It really is. So whether you have never cared about it before, or you are a basketball superfan. You got to check out Horse. New episodes come out every other Monday. And you can just search Horse in your podcast app or go to horsehoops.com.
JULIA: I really love basketball now because of the Horse boys and-
AMANDA: Me too.
JULIA: -I didn't know anything about basketball beforehand.
AMANDA: I follow so many them on Instagram now. So good. Well guys, without further ado, please enjoy Spirits podcast Episode 243: Westworld, Robots, and AI.
JULIA: So welcome folks. This week we are talking about the 1973 film Westworld on which the HBO TV series is based off of. Both the movie and the show are on HBO max. So, if you've got those, you got to watch them. You really do got to watch them. And luckily for us, this movie is not even a tight 90 minutes. It is 88 minutes with credits, so you can bang it out real quick and it's like genuinely a pretty fun time.
AMANDA: It's very campy, but Julia Oh no! The machines have taken over. An editor, Eric, is here in a non-urban legends episode. What's happening?
JULIA: Whoa what's up?
ERIC: I am the ghost in this machine.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: So, we were talking in our slack about how we want to do the Westworld movie as our next Myth Movie Night. And Eric's like, Oh, I've been reading like a lot of cyberpunk. A lot of science-fiction. A lot of like, things about robots, and ghosts in the machines, and Gods in the machine. And I was like you want to be on this episode? And Eric said yes. So here he is.
AMANDA: Yay!
ERIC: I have been, I, I don't want to oversell my, my knowledge of the topic or three. I have read a handful of cyberpunk novels and short stories at this point. I've also seen the Westworld movie multiple times now and I have watched everything but the last 30 minutes of the show because I really think the show took a dip. It, I think it's like a dip in season two, I think it took a more dip in season three. And I literally was so bored by the finale. I haven't finished it.
JULIA: I have only seen season one.
ERIC: But I, but I've consumed lots of these types of media in the past. So I'm excited to, to chat about the movie and general robotics and futuristic stuff.
JULIA: Awesome. Well, I, the only other thing I want to mention about this movie before we dive into the summary is that it's actually the big-screen directorial premiere of author Michael Creighton. And he also wrote this screenplay, and you might know Michael Creighton from Jurassic Park.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Also a bunch of other stuff but Jurassic Park mainly.
ERIC: Yeah.
AMANDA: I didn't know that offhand. But I can definitely see the similarities.
JULIA: He really loves the idea of theme parks going bad.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, He sure does.
JULIA: And to, to not spoil that, I guess. Let's uh, let's go into the summary. Amanda, do you have two minutes on the clock for me?
AMANDA: Two minutes are on the clock, Julia. Begin whenever you're ready.
JULIA: So, we opened with a bunch of interviews promoting a vacation resort called Delos that happens to have three various parks where guests can integrate themselves into places like medieval Europe or Pompei or the American Old West, which is Westworld, where the movie gets its name.
AMANDA: A pun I did not get until I watched this film.
JULIA: Incredible! These worlds were populated by robots/androids that are like, extremely realistic and guests can basically go hog wild in these worlds and do whatever they want. Including like, seducing and killing the robots. So, we follow Peter and John who is played by a very young James Brolin. John's been here before but it's Peter's first time. He's a little nervous. He's coming off of divorce. Peter and John kind of like get there. They enjoy the wantonness of Westworld with Peter killing the "Gunslinger" whose sole purpose seems to be like starting fights with guests so they can feel like real gunslingers. But, of course, the robots cannot harm the guests and it's revealed that the guns that the guests have can only shoot cold things like robots because they have temperature gauges. But behind the scenes, we see that the like, technicians who are running Delos are having problems with the robots and it seems like these problems are spreading like a virus from robot to robot. But the technicians kind of dismiss this because they're robots. There's an awkward sex scene. The Gunslinger comes back and tries to shoot James Brolin, but he's killed again. But it seems weird that he keeps coming back and trying to kill these two guys, right? So things start to escalate, James Brolin is bitten by a robot snake which shouldn't happen and then it culminates in a guest being killed by a knight in Medieval world. The technicians tried to shut everything down, but the robots run on reserve power, and now none of them are responding to orders and start murdering all of the guests. The two men run into the gunslinger yet again. This time James Brolin is killed. Peter runs away. The Gunslinger is following him the entire time. He's attempting to kill him for like, the last 30 minutes of the entire movie. Peter manages to blind the Gunslinger with acid with some really cool practical effects as well. And the Gunslinger like, still is able to track him down with infrared scanners. Peter manages to get the jump on him by hiding behind some fire and lights the Gunslinger on fire, finally destroying him and leaving him presumably the sole survivor.
AMANDA: Damn Julia, right to time. Well-
JULIA: Thank you.
AMANDA: -done.
JULIA: I try my best. I really, I timed these out. I write them and then I time them out.
AMANDA: Okay. So, we all know that Josh Brolin and by we all know, I mean, Wikipedia just told me, is the son of James Brolin. Did you know that Barbra Streisand is Josh Brolin's stepmom?
JULIA: I did know that.
ERIC: I didn't know that.
JULIA: Mostly from Wikipedia this morning.
AMANDA: She sure is.
JULIA: Sure is. So, I want to, I want to hear your thoughts about the movie, first and foremost. And then, I have a couple of things that I want to talk about that were highlights for me. And then, we'll dive into what I really want to talk about this episode, which is the historical and mythological origins of robots.
AMANDA: Oh, that sounds so fun. I can't wait to talk about that. I have a little drinking game here for myself, where whenever we're like, Hey, golems are the bomb. I'm just gonna take a little sip of water. In order to, you know, like, calmly mix my, my drinking in my water.
JULIA: Bounce it out. Bounce it out.
AMANDA: In general, I enjoyed the hell out of this movie. I was also for the first time I think, really glad it got a remake because I think this concept is so interesting. And I was hoping for more kind of having seen the TV Westworld first, I was kind of like, Okay. Well, when do the robots like achieve sentience and have an identity crisis? That part didn't happen but the idea that like, this, it, it was seemed to me very early 70s to be like, "Hey, technology could give us this wild thing but what if it goes wrong?" is also again, just exceedingly well done I think in Jurassic Park.
JULIA: Yes, for sure. Eric, what are your thoughts?
ERIC: I, I like this movie a lot. I think it's very interesting, because we are, as Amanda said, in the in the early 70s and I think there's kind of like, this fighting for what sci-fi canon in film is going to be at this point because Star Wars hasn't been released yet.
JULIA: Mmh-hmmm.
ERIC: And Star Wars undeniably influences the next 30, 40 years of sci-fi filmmaking very, very significantly. We've just come off of Star Trek: The Original Series being cancelled only a handful of years before this, if I remember correctly. And so, I think it's kind of interesting that we have this kind of like, the other thing where it's like, this is taking place on earth in the future. It's more robots than, like, aliens and that kind of stuff. I think it's, I think it's just all around really, really interesting. I think one of the, the best parts of it is when they enter medi- medieval world.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
ERIC: Which is just like complete, like the shock of it, you're like, Oh, wow, there's completely other parts of this that are just like, completely buck-wild. And like, just as weird as, as Westworld is.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. I also really enjoyed the filmmaking style. And this is something that I would love for you to opine on a little bit as well. Eric is somebody who, you know, has film degree and cares a lot more about film than I do, in the sort of style of filmmaking. But it felt to me like a sort of art tour piece. Like, it felt like, somebody was really recognizing their own vision and so it made complete sense to me that this is a, you know, written-directed combo piece. Because just like, I don't know, there was something very, like childlike about it. And a real like, I really got those vibes of like, you know, adults going to an amusement park to have fun. I don't know. I've read a lot of think pieces recently about Disney adult and fandom and like, you know, the, the identity of, of being a fan and of like, you know, having sort of childlike nostalgia or glee, which I, I think that a lot of people our age, you know, we're kind of reckoning with sort of being in like perma nostalgia. Because the nostalgia cycles are so much faster for our generation, like, people 20 years older than us were not getting nostalgia marketing for their own childhoods when they were in their early 20s like we did. Anyway, this is all, this is all a kind of like long winded way of saying that, I think that this movie is also partially about people and specifically, like, men trying to bond and have fun and have, kind of like, uncomplicated pleasure and the fact that there is always a price for something like that, at least in this particular world.
JULIA: Those are all great points.
ERIC: Yeah. So this is, this is Crichton's directorial debut, and I think it does, have like, kind of this like, I am creating this world. I've created this world on-page, now I'm creating this world visually for you to see. And it does have some very interesting, like, film stuff. Julia mentioned the really cool practical effects that happened. Which I think are very, very cool all throughout the whole thing. I think there's like some very voyeuristic camera choices in a lot of it, which I think is kind of interesting because it kind of gives this idea that like; You're being watched while you're doing all of this somewhat-
AMANDA: Yeah.
ERIC: -questionable moral things to these robots.
AMANDA: And people at work are just like, Yep, the air conditioner is down in sector three and someone just murdered a droid and no one's going to talk about that.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: I like how it all kind of unravels. I like how the, the whole uhm, it does feel like a vision. It feels like this guy got to choose what he wanted. And I think it would have been really interesting to see, like, this be made again, as a, as a film in the 90s. Once like Spielberg gets involved with Crichton and does Jurassic Park, because Jurassic Park like holds up unbelievably well in terms of its CG. So, I think it would be interesting to see, like, to have had like another version of this re-telling with like, more modern CG rather than like. Not rather than, but along with the, the series that came later.
JULIA: Yeah, I think it's really interesting. It's very subtle, the effects that they choose to use. Like, the, the glow on Yul Brynner's eyes as The Gunslinger when he is chasing down Peter. I thought was like a really cool effect, and also kind of gave you the idea of like, this is something that is as human as it looks. It is also other-ly human, you know?
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: So, I, I really liked the effects in this because they're extremely subtle for all things considered. Especially when you look at something like Jurassic Park, which comes 20 years later, and is massively all about the special effects. So there were a couple of like, little things that I wanted to talk about. So like, the company being named Delos immediately kind of like, clicked something in my head. But as far as I could tell, I couldn't find a connection between Delos like the place in Greece and robots. I think Michael Crichton just picked something that sounded Greek and cool. But conspirators would recognize Delos being the Greek island where Leto gave birth to Artemis and Apollo. But other than that, I can't find any other, like, real significance to like, the themes of Westworld. One of my favorite parts of this film though, was the conversation that the technicians are having about, like, how the robots are like starting to like, come down with some "disease". And the one guy goes, I must confess, I find it difficult to believe in a disease of machinery. This is actually one of the first mentions of computer viruses in fiction specifically in a science fiction film.
AMANDA: Really?
JULIA: Which I think is really interesting because it's so prevalent in science fiction now. So, to have this be the first mention of it in the 1970s is extremely cool.
AMANDA: Do we get any explanation? Because I was just like, enjoying the hell out of myself for the back half of the movie. Do we get an explanation of why things broke bad the way they did?
JULIA: No, I think it's just like, a virus started in one and managed to spread to the other hosts. It's not as clear as to like, why it's happening or what and even after that line that I read before the, I don't believe in the disease of machinery. The next scientist, he goes, Well, we don't know exactly how they work, because-
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: -we're at that point where machines are starting to build these machines, and we're not entirely sure how they work.
AMANDA: Okay, cool. Because I think ultimately, it is like you make advanced technology, what do you expect to happen? Like, that's sort of the, you know, the, the central conceit of the movie. And it's not even important specifically why it happens. Like you said, Julia, we don't fully understand it. It's like, Hey, you made this, did, did you really expect anything to happen except ultimately, it would end in like a total robot takeover. And, you know, downfall of all humans on, on campus.
JULIA: Yeah. The next thing I want to talk about real quick, which is not like super relevant to this, because it's never stated outright. But I feel like we could talk about Asimov's laws, because the whole premise of the park is based on the idea that robots shouldn't be able to harm humans. And obviously, they are able to do that. Asimov's laws, in case people don't know what those are or the three laws of robotics were introduced by science fiction writer Isaac Asimov, in his 1942 story, Run Around, which would later be included in the slightly more well known at least by name collection, which is iRobot. First time I heard Asimov’s Laws was the Will Smith movie iRobot.
ERIC: A classic.
JULIA: A classic, genuinely.
ERIC: By this point, it is a classic problem. I think it's got to be 15 years old.
AMANDA: Such a good movie, man.
JULIA: So, the laws are very simple. So the first law is a robot may not injure a human being or through inaction allow a human being to come to harm. The second law is a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where are these orders would conflict with the first law. And finally, the third law is, a robot must protect its own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict with the first or second law. So obviously, like, it is somewhat implied in the Westworld movie, that robots should not be able to harm the guests. But whatever this virus is that the robots are experiencing makes it so that they don't have to respond to those laws or their programming. Which I think is fun and interesting, because it's not stated outright, but it is like a science fiction trope that was established 30 years before this movie was made.
AMANDA: Yeah, it feels very early for its time and then discussions of you know, the sort of Insta AI takeover, if true AI were to be made, you know, like that, that whole situation another HBO mini-series really premise, they feel like they were developed earlier than I would have guessed.
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: I think that the most, like, a common way that we're kind of grappling with those laws is less with, like, I don't know if it's technically considered AI. But like self-driving cars have to make a lot of decisions in terms of like, how to crash in the event of a crash. And like, there's a lot of like, do you hit a person or protect the driver or do other things to like. Whatever the choice is, and I think the choices that are made at this point that we have to kind of figure out that like, where does the inaction of these things come from? And like, what have we designed obviously, with social media. You've got, we've, we've jumped the shark on whether or not it's good or bad edits. It's fully, it's fully become evil at this point. But I think there's like, well how do we decide these other things that people are going to be interacting with, on our day-to day and like, it's very common in multiple different things that I've read or played where like AI specifically becomes like illegal. In the Mass Effect series, it is illegal in the Sprawl Trilogy by William Gibson which has Neuromancer, which is like one of the seminal pieces of cyberpunk fiction. Like, AI is not-, is only allowed to be used by like, the government, or like military. I can't remember exactly which, but like, I think there's that interesting thing where like, we have to figure out where we are drawing the lines on what the machines can and can't do.
JULIA: It's like we're making the machine solve the, the trolley problem. Truly incredible.
ERIC: Yeah,
JULIA: I can't believe we've done this to poor robots.
ERIC: Poor robots.
JULIA: Finally, I just want to comment on probably the funniest part of the movie for me, which was when the Gunslinger is shooting at Peter and then he tries shooting and the gun doesn't go off. And he looks at it and there's just a blinking red thing at the bottom of the gun that says "The battery dead". Like, really? Really? That's how we're doing it? There's a battery in your gun? Come on, bro.
ERIC: It's a bad gun.
AMANDA: There were a lot of extremely entertaining small moments in this movie, including I didn't know Brolin on site. And so I just called him budget Harrison Ford-
JULIA: Wow.
AMANDA: -because I think he super was in this particular role. But we also got a couple of great euphemisms. We had companionly entertainment as a euphemism for spending time with a sex worker in a brothel. And then, I just have been repeating to myself for days and days that the robot in the saloon going, sloppy with your drink.
JULIA: It's, it's so great the things that just pop out at you while you watch a movie.
AMANDA: Yeah, like, Hey, this brothel has the appropriate number of pillows for a house I think.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I want a brothel level of pillows in my house. That sounds great.
ERIC: So many pillows in that brothel.
JULIA: So many pillows. It just because you could lie down anywhere.
AMANDA: Exactly.
ERIC: That place gets blown up, that place. Everything goes real. That's like the first, Is that the first like really buck-wild place everything just goes to hell? Because I remember it being just like the most- weirdly the most violent in some ways.
JULIA: There's like that saloon fight but-
ERIC: Yes. Yeah.
JULIA: -it's still like before all of the robots have-.
AMANDA: It's more civilized.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Quote unquote.
JULIA: It's a civilized Old West of-
ERIC: Exactly.
JULIA: -saloon fight. Not a, not a let's murder all the humans saloon fight. Which also brings up a great question I feel like and we'll get to the robot stuff in a second. I'm so sorry listeners. I have a lot of thoughts about this movie. But I am curious because, like, obviously, The Gunslinger and the Black Knight who are, like, the first robots to kill some of the guests. Obviously, they are programmed to attack guests for that kind of, you know, excitement-threat situation. Why do the rest of the robots just start murdering all the humans? Do they like remember? Like, that these humans will constantly kill them and also, like, fuck them? Or is it a matter, it's just like oop, their programming is all gone. Now it's just kill, kill, kill.
ERIC: I mean, that's definitely what happens in the show.
JULIA: Right.
ERIC: That the, the, like recursive memories or whatever, like reappear, and all their cycles come back. I mean, I think it's kind of safe to assume that like, the virus that happens, or the disease for machines, as it's called. Does have probably, like, starts and becomes more violent as it like maybe passes through the violent robots-
JULIA: Yeah.
ERIC: -or something like that. I, I don't think as we know, there's no reason it's happening. So, I mean, maybe there doesn't need to be an exact reason why they all become violent. And it has to do with like, past memories and whatnot. But I think, I think it's just kind of like, they are, they are machines. And I think any of them can just become violent in one way or another. I mean, I think it, it says something about humanity-
AMANDA: I was about to say that.
ERIC: -as well. Where, like, if provoked in some way, a lot of people could easily go into some violent mode to, to protect themselves to, to harm others, for whatever reason. And I think that there, there, there's comes kind of echoing there between the robots and us.
JULIA: Sure. I 100% agree, took the words right out of my mouth. So let's dive into the history of robots. Now that we've had a discussion about Westworld and their robots. So I feel like a lot of people might know or might not know that the word robot first appears in the play by Karel Čapek, in 1921. The play is called Rossum's Universal Robots. And the root of the word comes from the Czech word for “forced to labor”. And the play focuses on a factory that makes artificial people called roboti or robots in the play. Čapek's robots are made from synthetic-organic material and have artificial flesh and blood rather than internal machinery making them more like androids in our modern understanding of robots, which also makes them very similar to our Westworld robots that we see in this film and in the television show.
AMANDA: Well, I, I just think it's so suitable that the origins of robot and the idea to, of the, the Golem as a, you know, a creature that could protect Jewish people in times of need, which if you have not listened to Episode 11 of Spirits, the Golem with Eric Silver, you totally should. It's fascinating. It makes total sense that this play is ultimately about hubris, and about, you know, man trying to outmaneuver God and man trying to, you know, make something just because he can and not because it's a good idea or because it has a good place in society, but just, you know, because it's possible. Like, that is, you know, the definition of, of like, man kind of trying to outreach. And I, I think specifically when you use technology not in service of a greater good but just because you can, and in this case in this movie for like empty amusement. Again, it's sort of like, I think that the movie is implying a kind of moral failure. Like it, it implies that this is the natural consequence and maybe the deserved consequence of just sort of forcing a bunch of beings into servitude. And as soon as you give them a little bit of agency, I think the movies sort of telling us. Like, of course, they would try to reclaim that power. Of course, they would defend themselves to the, like, repeated assaults of many kinds from guests.
JULIA: Yeah. And that brings up the great point that the ending of Rossum's Universal Robots is the robots' revolt against humans and it leads to the extinction of the human race. As early as we've been talking about robots we've been talking about how they kill us.
AMANDA: Elon Musk not make up the idea that AI could be a bad idea for people.
JULIA: Yes, of course. And obviously, the concept of the robot or the automaton or androids obviously existed before 1921. So, what I would love to do is do a kind of deep dive into the early ideas of robotics and humanoid constructs throughout history and mythology and see just how we wound up loving and also fearing the idea of the robot. But first, let's refuel and grab a quick refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: Amanda, when you and I were hanging out yesterday, we were talking all about the new plants in your life. And it got me thinking, "Dang, I really need to up my plant game" because I don't feel like I need to compete with you. But I do feel like our friendship would flourish like the plants in your apartment if I just, you know, did a little bit more research on how to take care of those plants. And luckily, Amanda Skillshare had a class for me like they always do whenever I find myself interested in a topic or a course of study.
AMANDA: Like a Pothos, they're, they're just so low maintenance and easy to love and useful and enrich your life.
JULIA: Yes. And I found a class on Skillshare called Indoor Gardening: Grow Houseplants, Veggies, and Herbs by Ekta Chaudhary. And, Oh My God! Amanda, it's so good. I love, there's like indoor, there's like good plants for balconies. It's just fantastic. And it like teaches you how to understand your plants, which all my plants have different needs. I didn't realize that different plants have different needs. I probably should have. But I didn't realize it until I took this class.
AMANDA: And where can the good people try Skillshare on their own Julia?
JULIA: So you can take short classes and move your creative journey forward like I did with my indoor plant class. So, you can explore your creativity at skillshare.com/spirits where our listeners will get one-month free trial of premium membership. That's one month for free at skillshare.com/spirits.
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JULIA: Listen, I got a whiff of you yesterday. It was real nice.
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JULIA: So, it's not a super original idea for a cocktail, but the rusty nail feels like the most appropriate for our cocktail choice this week.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: If you haven't heard of a rusty nail, it's whiskey and Drambuie, which is like a malt whiskey that is also brewed with honey and spices and herbs. It's like, it's pretty good. I like it. And you just add a lemon twist and put it over some, like, nice thick ice cubes. And then you got a rusty nail, but we've got no rust on us guys. So, let's keep plowing through these folkloric origins of robots. So, the first one that comes to mind, for me, at least is the Greek story of Pygmalion and Galatea. Let me start by saying Pygmalion sucks. He's just a bad dude.
ERIC: Oh.
JULIA: His whole story kind of starts with him becoming a misogynist, because he sees sex work happening around him and he decides, fuck this, I'm gonna be celibate and work on my art. Like, come on, dude.
ERIC: Oh, so he's like, an [31:06]
JULIA: Yeah, but he's, he's choosing to be celibate, quote, unquote.
ERIC: Hmm.
JULIA: And so he's a sculptor, he ends up carving this incredible sculpture of a woman out of ivory, that is so beautiful, that of course, he falls in love with it. Obviously.
ERIC: Oh, oh.
JULIA: And this is when he gets a little weird about it because he starts kissing the sculpture. He brings it gifts, like it's a real person that he has to win over. Makes a bed for it, but obviously it is a statue made out of ivory. So, it doesn't really respond to him at all. So, he goes to Aphrodite on her festival day, he goes to her temple, and Pygmalion goes to the altar. And he's like, Hey, Aphrodite, can you give me a bride that would be the living likeness of my ivory girl, because he's not going to ask outright for Aphrodite to make his statue into a real person, because even he realizes how weird that is. So, he goes home, and then he kisses the statue like he always does. And then he finds that the statue's lips are warm, and then he kisses it again. And he finds that the ivory is no longer ivory, but skin instead. And so his ivory statue has changed into a woman under Aphrodite's blessing, and the two of them are married. Which is a better ending than he deserves. But we're moving on.
ERIC: All right. I'm most impressed that he has been, like, presumably using some kind of elaborate pulley system, lowering and raising this thing into bed
JULIA: Because it's heavy. Ivory is heavy.
ERIC: Yeah.
JULIA: So keeping with the Greeks a little bit longer, we can talk about Cadmus and the dragon teeth soldiers. So, Cadmus was a hero, and also the founder and first king of the City of Thebes. So, while Cadmus is out, you know, doing his hero thing, he came across the Oracle of Delphi, who told him like, "Oh, you should give up your current quest. You should follow a cow with a half moon on her flank. And that's going to tell you where you should settle your town". And he's like, All right. He finds a cow which belongs to a king that the king gifts him, and then he just lets the cow run free. And then finally, when the cow lays down to rest, he decides that's where he's going to build his city, you know? Classic, that's great city planning right there. So, he plans on sacrificing the cow to Athena. So, he sends a couple of his companions to a nearby spring to gather up some water. However, the spring is guarded by a water dragon, which kills his friends. And then, Cadmus shows up. obviously. He's the hero and he manages to kill the dragon in turn. Then, Athena shows up and is like, Hey, listen. Cool that you killed that dragon. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to take the dragon's teeth and you're going to sew them into the ground. And Cadmus is, like, Cool, Athena, whatever you want. As he plants the teeth, a whole race of fierce, fully armed men spring from the ground. And Cadmus is like, Oh, you guys should fight. And then he like throws a stone which starts infighting among them because they didn't see who threw the stone. And so they are fighting until there's only five left. And then, Cadmus stops them. And he's like, Okay, you guys are the strongest. Help me build the city and you'll be the noblest families in that city. And so, they do. And then, these like artificial dragon men become super important to the City of Thebes. But that's not the only Greek story, guys. There's Hephaestus of course. And I really like almost all of these ones so far have been the Gods giving the gift of, like, you know, artificial people to humans, which is awesome.
AMANDA: Mmh-hmm.
JULIA: Because that really plays into our big robot vibe here. So, next up, we have Hephaestus, who is the forge God. And He is the son of Hera, and depending on the source, Zeus, You're gonna like this one, because supposedly he had crafted a whole slew of attendants that were known as the golden maidens. So, here is the quote from Homer, Hephaestus left his bellows and took up a heavy stick in his hand, and went to the doorway limping. And in support of their master, moved his attendants. These are golden, and in appearance like living young women. There is intelligence in their hearts and there is speech in them, and strength. And from the immortal Gods, they have learned how to do things. These stirred nimbly in support of their master, because nimbly because they're golden ladies, of course. And these are probably the closest so far that we have to our concept of the modern robot, because they are humanoid. They have their own intelligence. They're able to walk and talk, but they're made of metal. Also, very similarly, in terms of the traditional robot is the Greek story of Talos. Now, Talos was a giant automaton, who was made out of bronze. He was rather crafted by Hephaestus, kind of similarly to the golden maidens. Or he was a part of a race of bronze men, from the age of bronze, that had survived after the rise of the age of gold. But either way, he is tasked with protecting Europa who was kidnapped by Zeus. And Zeus had him protecting Europa. "Protecting" Europa from anyone who might want to steal her back or from his wife from exacting revenge on her. Because classic Zeus and Hera. Interestingly, Talos has one vein, which apparently traversed from his neck to his ankle, and it was bound shut by a single bronze nail. So, this is the first instance that we see of, like, something like, other than metal powering these things, which I think is very interesting. In the story of the Argonauts, the Argo approaches the island but Talos starts hurling boulders at the ship to keep them away. And Talos ends up being murdered by Medea. Who either drugs him or convinces him that she can make him immortal by removing the nail that seals his vein, which he removes and "The ichor ran out of him like molten lead", which basically, he dies by bleeding out which is fascinating. So, quickly moving away from Greece. We'll head to Ancient Egypt and talk about the Ka statues. So, in ancient Egypt, typically, there were these statues of the Gods and Goddesses that were made out of stone, or metal, or wood. And it was believed that the Ka or the soul of the gods would, like, remain within them because they represented the Divinity. But in fact, this is actually less of a myth and more of a, like, really interesting religious practice. Because in fact, by the second century BCE, the Egyptians had these hydraulically-operated statues that could speak and gesture. And were even used to, like, give prophecies during religious ceremonies.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Yeah. So, the Egyptians would pose questions to the statues, and then they would receive a answer with the, like, movement of the head. Like other, like a yes if they turned left. No, if they turned right kind of situation.
ERIC: That's very good.
AMANDA: The ways in which like religion as a tool of statehood transcends time, place, country is is, completely staggering to me.
JULIA: It's so cool. And honestly, the fact that they had hydraulically-powered robots/statues in the second century BCE? Wild. Genuinely-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: wild. So cool.
AMANDA: Shout out to my, to my girl, Stacy Shifts Cleopatra, which gave my clear sense I have gotten yet of, like, the technology and sensuality of life of that time period. Like, it wasn't all dusty, you know? Two-dimensional profile facing portraits, like they are people.
JULIA: Yeah. I love her portrayal of Alexandria in that. It's so good.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: So heading over to East Asia, we can talk about the Buddhist monk, Daosheng, and the "precious metal people". So Daosheng was a scholar who lived in the early seventh century and describes several humanoid metal automata that were taught to recite sacred texts, which I think is very cool. And it was said that these metal people actually wept when Gautama Buddha passed away. Implying that they not only had intellect but human emotion as well, which seventh century. Pretty early. Also, from China is a story of a legendary carpenter Lu Ban. Who actually was, like, a real person who was deified as the Patron God of Builders and Contractors, which I love. He lived around the fifth century BCE, and had been born to a family of carpenters. He fell in love with both learning and woodworking and became infamous for his carvings and woodworking. So, because the demand for his work was so great, he actually set out to try to make himself like, more productive or make his work easier by inventing or improving a bunch of tools. So, it was said that he invented the saw, the planer, the drill, the shovel. And as a result of being able to, like, complete his projects more quickly, he just like became super famous for being, like, the best woodworker ever.
AMANDA: Ah, the spectre of industrialization remains with us.
JULIA: Listen, he was just like, man, cool. He was a skilled artisan who pumped out his work and I am super proud of him. He also was said to invent the umbrella so that he could work even when it was raining. I think that's cool.
ERIC: Very good.
AMANDA: I love these myths of like, this guy, loved work so much, or in this case, his work is art. So, maybe it's not that close. But man, I just, in 2021, you cannot extricate my brain from like, productivity culture, and you know, tear downs thereof. It's so fascinating to have, like, this whole subject, I will just pull out very briefly and say, this entire thing is so ripe with meaning. Whether you're looking at it from theology, from industrialization, from like the downfalls of capitalism, from religious persecution. Like, there, there are so many angles and ways in which robots are like the ultimate metaphor because they are like an empty vessel that human beings can project everything into. What is a richer metaphor than a human that isn't a human? Like, to, to think about humanity and what we should use that for just, Oh, I love it.
JULIA: 100%. The only thing else that I want to say about Lu Ban, which is, you know, relevant to our conversation is that he was able to create several mechanical imitations of both animals and also demons. I don't know why demons but-
ERIC: Oh.
JULIA: -also demons.
ERIC: Oh boy.
JULIA: None of them rebelled against humans, as far as I'm aware, as far as I could find. Next up is a story from the Indian Lokapannatti, which is a collection of cycles and lores from the 11th and 12th centuries. In the Lokapannatti, they recount a story of an army of automated soldiers known as the Spirit Movement Machines, which I love that translation. Very cool. In the story, it was said that they were created to protect the holy relics of the Buddha that had been hidden away. And it's also another like, instance of these like proto-robots being used as like, defenders or guards, which I think is cool. Around the same time but over in Europe, it was said that the saint and philosopher Albertus Magnus had constructed an android, that he had to handle, like, domestic tasks in his life and that the automaton was only destroyed when Albertus' student, Thomas Aquinas, you might have heard of him.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Was said to become so frustrated with the android that it had disturbed his thought, that he had it destroyed.
ERIC: Wow, just, just going in on that one.
JULIA: Yeah, he's like, I don't like this robot. And then he was like, destroy it. And of course, as Amanda mentioned rightfully so, there's also the Jewish Golem, which we've had much smarter guests than me. Like, Eric Silver on the show in the past, who talked about the robot and Golem connection better than I can. So, go listen to that episode. It's Episode 11. Amanda said it before. And these are just the legends and stories of robots. There are actually like true mechanical devices that acted as early conceptions of robots. So, like in 3000 BCE, the Egyptians had built water clocks that use humanoid figurines that would strike a bell every hour. In 400 BCE, in Greece, the philosopher Archytas of Tarentum invented a wooden pigeon that was capable of flight, which is very cool. The roman courtier Petronius Arbiter was said to have made a doll that could move like a human being, which is honestly, it's just kind of buck-wild to me that like, "robots" existed so early on in our history. Like, I know we so very often kind of underestimate the knowledge of our forefathers. Especially since like, our technology has advanced so rapidly. Even over the last century. But it's just really interesting to remind ourselves, like, Well, people were smart. They can figure things out.
AMANDA: Yeah, and they're always, I think, trying to, you know, redo that, like, that's the highest goal, right? Like, that's the, the highest possible, you know, technological theological thing that you could possibly do, is create life.
JULIA: Yeah. And that's why so many of the like, early Greek stories are about the Gods creating life for other humans to use, which I really think is neat. In terms of that more like, modern history of robots. I just wanted to talk about, like, the really early modern history of robots. So, most notably, one of the earliest versions was created by an inventor from Louisville, Kentucky named George C. Deval. He created a reprogrammable manipulator called Unimate, which is short for Universal Automation. And while he tried to sell his product over the next decade, he was like, ultimately unable to succeed in marketing it, because people didn't really get what they could use it for. And it wasn't until the late 1960s, when a man named Joseph Engelberger acquired Deval's patent and modified it to be an industrial robot that could be used in factories. So, he formed a company called Unimation which produced and marketed his robots. Making Engelberger known as the "Father of robotics". Like, the modern father of robotics. And also, notably from this time period was the robot that was lovingly referred to as Shakey who was developed by Charles Rosen and his team at Stanford Research Institute. While the Unimate was designed to be industrial and therefore, like extremely specialized for a specific job, Shakey was capable of, like, various and more advanced movements and tasks. So, he could like wheel around the room. He could observe through his, like, little camera eyes, and he could actually respond to his environment in order to move across unfamiliar surroundings. He was named Shakey because he was a little bit wobbly and clouded around a bit with his movements. Hence, Shakey.
ERIC: I like a robot that's just a little bit bad at doing all of its stuff. Like, now we have all these Boston dynamic robots.
JULIA: They scare me.
ERIC: The one, one video came out today that it ran a 5k.
JULIA: No.
ERIC: One of the, one of those things. So, like, I like the idea of a robot that's like, it could do stuff. But like, don't push it.
JULIA: Yeah. No, I, I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of all these modern robots who can go around and survey malls and stuff. Not a fan of it. Not a fan of the-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -Mall Cop Robots.
AMANDA: And returning to Westworld for a moment too. Like, the, the last third of the movie is really quiet. There is not a lot, like, in terms of fewer voices. There's a lot of foreboding, a lot of just like sounds of fighting, a lot of like music, you know? And, and action scenes, but not a lot of communication. Because, you know, nobody is stopping and saying like, Hey, what do you want? I'm sorry. You know? It, it is really kind of like made primal almost in how that fight occurs. And reminded me too of how the, you know, the Golem can't speak and doesn't have a soul. Like, those are kind of the two like not drawbacks, necessarily, but two characteristics of a Golem. Particularly now, as we're talking about, again, like, deep things. And you know, like, manipulation and, you know, audio. Like, speaking so often to robots in the form of, you know, the systems from devices, I'm not going to name in case any of you are listening out loud in your homes right now, and don't want your device to ask you if you need to add something to your refrigerator list. But it's just, it's just fascinating how often we connect with robots and how like a robot arm is bringing us things from, like, the back of the automat, you know? It was kind of like, the vision of this futurism in the 50s. And now, it's, it's way more a prompting of a notification or a voice asking you if you need help,
JULIA: It's really interesting that you brought up the idea that the Golem doesn't have a soul. Which I, I think is a really interesting take on the "robot story". But I think that actually leads into a great conversation that Eric, I know you want to talk about where it is kind of the idea of the Ghost in the machine, God in the machine, and becoming Gods ourselves as humans that is really prevalent in like cyberpunk and modern sci-fi. Do you want to take it away?
ERIC: Yeah, yeah. I think there's two kind of interesting things. And I think the Westworld TV show kind of grapples with this in its different seasons. Where like, in the, in Westworld: The Movie and The Show, there's less in the movie, but there's lots of discussion of like, us becoming a God figure for the robots.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
ERIC: And the robots kind of doing a whole Garden of Eden, revolting against, against its creator kind of thing. And I think there's a lot of Western Judeo allegory to be had in there. And I think that that's kind of like, I mean, that's what art is, in a lot of ways is this creation of something. And like, obviously, most art doesn't lead to something that could be perceived, at least as a living being. But with these kinds of things, it, it very much is the case. And then on the, on the, on the other side of the coin, there's a lot of conversation about, like the idea of cyberspace, and the matrix. And some like going in, and living forever. In, in Neuromancer, there's the idea of constructs, which are like downloaded personalities of people that just live forever in this state in the matrix that you can like jack into both in the novels. And then, obviously, in The Matrix: The Movie Series, you have this idea of like living forever in the machine, which is like, kind of an ascension into like, what some might say, is a better world. A, a heaven or something like that?
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
ERIC: You even have that in the second season of Westworld. All three seasons of Westworld kind of deal with a different thing. In the first one, it's us creating something and the third one, it's a very super powered AI that's kind of become our God in a sense. Like, instead of man becoming God, it's man creating God in that. But then, in the second season, there's a lot of discussion about the robots reaching a like, digital heaven. And this promised world that kind of becomes, like, this kind of almost, they become zealots in some sense. For like a religion that is purely for the robots. So, I think there's a lot of really interesting ways that we, that we can play around with the idea of robots and AI and whether or not what man becomes or what man creates,
AMANDA: There's so much here to discuss. And that could be fascinating to you, depending on what your perspective is. And for me, reading a lot recently about, like, labor rights, productivity, what we owe other people, what, you know, the world owes us. It's easier for me to look on kind of like, particularly the 19th and 20th-century versions of robots and ideals of robots as an extension of kind of our like imperialistic quest to kind of like, you know, mechanize more and more and to extract more resources. And to, you know, get more stuff and therefore more wealth out of the world. And it's almost like, okay, well, you know, an imperialistic country might feel like they've run out of world to conquer or people to conquer. And so like, make more, you know, beings to do that. And one of the things that I appreciated most about the first season of the Westworld TV show, is how it kind of like begs us to, to ask about our own morality. And just because it's not another person that's suffering because of all these consequences doesn't mean that the behavior is not monstrous. And too like in the film. Looking at just kind of like the cameras, kind of like implicating men who looked at women with a sense of like guilt or ownership. Like, there was a lot of, you know, like looking at wenches or like that? That man who ends up dying in the sword battle on the plane, he gave his wife kind of like a withering look or like a kind of understanding look, when she was sort of getting like enthralled over the idea of Pompei. And it's like, Okay, well, you guys are both going here together. You're about to like get bitches in medieval world. And you are, my read on that look was like, he was you know, a little bit worried that or, or like, you know, distrustful that his wife was looking at the, you know, sensuous, like pool men in, in ancient Greece worlds.
JULIA: Which is so funny because that leads to one of my, I don't know if it's one of my favorite lines from the movie, but he, when he mentioned, like, Oh, I want to, I want to fuck the Queen, basically. They're like, Alright, we've programmed infidelity into the Queen. You're like, Whoa, okay. I guess-
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: -that is something that you could program into a robot if you so chose to.
AMANDA: Like, it's all in. It's all wish fulfillment. They like, literally, they set up the fight where the Queen tells him about a weakness that then they make sure to program in the King for the following day or the night. Whoever it was to protect her.
JULIA: Mmh-hmm.
AMANDA: It is really about when you have this whole system set up to, like, serve the, the impulses and wishes of people with money. It is kind of cathartic to watch that system, have a sort of [51:23]. As corny as it was, I did appreciate that the last line of the movie, is that sort of like, ultimate echoing of like, boy, do we have a vacation for you, for you, for you. And I was sitting there and I felt kind of implicated in that line by saying like, Oh, man, like, was that movie a vacation for me? Like, what did I just do for the last hour and a half? Like what parts of this did I enjoy? I don't know. It's possible to get too into analysis of media, but I haven't really found it yet. And I, I appreciate it that that line gave me a little moment of reflection too.
JULIA: Right. And it, it comes down to like the idea of purpose, I feel like. So, in the opening scene, when they're doing the interviews with people who just got back from Delos, they have that interview with the one guy who's like, Oh, I, I killed the guy. It wasn't a guy, I don't think it was a guy. And then-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -the interviewer, like quickly pulls away from him.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: And its, it's very much that idea of like, I'm going to a place where these "People" are designed for me to do whatever I want with them. I'm playing God with these people because there's no consequences to what I am going to do.
ERIC: I think there is something about like, the blurring of the lines with that. I think, I mean, that that could say a lot about just like social media in general. Doesn't seem like there's an actual person on the other end. Am I just, Am I actually interacting with a Russian bot that's telling me to vote for Joe Biden, or am I interacting with a real human being that's ultra-liberal? Who knows? Who knows what's happening?
AMANDA: Yeah, but it's, it's a good reminder that like, you're always allowed to ask yourself, is this good? Just because the system exists or the ability to do something exists, or there's a technology, or there's precedent, or you see people already doing it. Like, you can ask yourself, Hey, is this good? Do I want to be doing this? Or thinks, is this good for society? And, you know, ultimately, that kind of like, skepticism, I think is really valuable. And I'm not sure what the you know, authorial intent of this movie was but that's what I took away from it.
JULIA: For sure. And I think, when I think about the like, What did I learn from this movie? Kind of thing, is that you know, playing God: bad. Leave that to the Gods, because clearly, we saw mostly good in folklore, but when we start getting into the nitty-gritty of, what if humans could do this too, that's where we start seeing shit go bad.
ERIC: I think it also doesn't help that the only people that have the resources to do these things-
JULIA: Rich people.
ERIC: -not building a park. But to, but to build, build the things. But also probably to go to the park, are already inherently corrupt by a capitalist system. So, they, they cannot make a morally good choice because of the path they had to follow to get to the ability to do it.
JULIA: Sure. Sure. That's true.
AMANDA: Yeah. How can we, how can we bring a little bit of, of joy, and frivolity, and frolicking, to our daily lives? How can we make life a little bit easier for the people around us? How can we, you know, thank the people whom, who make our life easier and, and do things so that we don't have to do them? That's you know. That's, that's my homework.
JULIA: Always thank your robots.
AMANDA: Always thank your robots.
JULIA: And also remember when the robots start to take over to, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool. Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider. With music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a forum to send us your urban legends at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes stuff. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more available to recipe cards, director's commentaries, exclusive merch, and real physical gifts.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, a collective of independent audio professionals. If you liked Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: And above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please share us with your friends. That is the very best way to help us keep on growing.
JULIA: Thank you so much for listening. Till next time.
Transcriptionist: JM Sarong
Editor: Krizia Casil