Episode 401: Set
/Every story needs a villain, and Egyptian mythology has Set. But is he really just a villain? We explore his multifaceted domains, his motivations, and the worst salad story you’ve ever heard.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, murder, sexual content, sexual assault, colonization, infidelity, eye injury, endangering a child, and toxic masculinity.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends a bad horror movie, like Tarot.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. and Amanda, I think it's time that we met the villain of many of the stories that we've told so far as part of our denial isn't just a river in Egypt, it's also what we've been doing by keeping an Egyptian mythology series from you on Spirits Podcast.
AMANDA: We're so excited. Yes, let's do it.
JULIA: But Amanda, is he really simply just a villain?
AMANDA: I'm guessing no, or else you wouldn't ask me a rhetorical question about it.
JULIA: That's true. But much like a lot of mythology, it's not necessarily a black and white thing. We've talked a lot so far in denial isn't just a river in Egypt, it's also what we've been doing by keeping an Egyptian mythology series from you on Spirits Podcast about how— depending on who is in power, the gods are seen in many different ways and played many different roles. And the same is true about the god, Set.
AMANDA: Very excited. I have got to imagine that everybody has a motivation. And as I get older, the more interested I am in those kinds of gray areas and gray area stories and characters, so can't wait.
JULIA: Well, Girly Pop, this is a gray area story 100%.
AMANDA: Not Julia calling me Girly Pop, okay.
JULIA: Girly Pop.
AMANDA: Wow. So Set, yes, he is the god of foreign lands, as opposed to Osiris, who's kind of representative of the kingdoms of Egypt. He is the god of thunderstorms and eclipses, and earthquakes, and the desert. He, in many stories, is seen as a villainous figure, one that inspires fear and one that is powerful enough to threaten the other gods. But he has, at times in Egyptian history, also been seen in a positive light. He has been the patron god of pharaohs like Ramesses, the great, and is even a protector to some, but we'll— we'll get there, Amanda. We'll get there. First, we'll start with, how do we recognize Set?
AMANDA: How do we? What— what is the animal accessory that he's wearing to the hieroglyphs?
JULIA: I'm so glad you asked, Amanda, because Set, much like all the other gods, has many forms. There are times where he is portrayed as a man. There are times where he's a man with an animal head. Of course, we— we talk about this a lot. Sometimes that is a hippopotamus head, which I think is— is pretty cool and pretty dope.
AMANDA: It is. Crushing jaws, Julia. Crushing jaws.
JULIA: He's also associated with crocodiles as well, less so than the hippo, and also occasionally donkeys. But what he is most often associated with, Amanda, is an animal that scholars refer to as the Set animal, because it doesn't really look like any super identifiable animal. And it seems like it is just unique to art of Set, or hieroglyphics about Set.
AMANDA: Fascinating. So what— what is the animal like? Is it a mashup of animals? Is it just kind of like random?
JULIA: Well, I'm gonna send you, Amanda, a photo—
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: —of what the Set animal looks like, and then I'll describe it for our listeners here. The Set animal is an animal with a curved head. It has these tall, square-topped ears. It has a erect arrow-like tail, and it is kind of canine-shaped, I would say.
AMANDA: I think this looks very like what hellhounds are depicted as. It's kind of like if a greyhound had, like, long ears, you know?
JULIA: Amanda, I described it later in my notes as a rescue greyhound and a heck pupper combined.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Nailed it.
AMANDA: So cute.
JULIA: Crushed it. I love it. So there's actually been many attempts by zoologists and Egyptologists to figure out what this creature is, or whether or not it actually, like, existed in nature, or if it was just a creature that came out of the imagination of the ancient Egyptians.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So far hasn't been a lot of progress in figuring out exactly what it is, but I love that they're like, "We got to figure this out. There's this— there's a cute heck pupper/greyhound out there—"
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "—in the world, and we don't know about it."
AMANDA: I mean, there's kind of, like, gazelle vibes. That's— you know, it's not so far off from, like, gazelle shape, but it's— it's definitely, at least in that drawing, like I would— I would guess dog as the closest, you know, comparison. JULIA: Yes. It feels very long limbed, kind of like a gazelle, or something along that track.
AMANDA: Or just a hottie.
JULIA: It is just a hottie. It's got long legs, it's just a hottie.
AMANDA: Long legs, square ears, just a hottie.
JULIA: But I really like the idea that they're like, "This animal, we don't know if it exists or not, but it represents Set."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "That's his whole vibe."
AMANDA: Love it. Sometimes my pronouns are an— an unidentifiable, you know, sound from the maw of hell.
JULIA: That's true. That is true. So Set sometimes is depicted as this animal. Sometimes it has this animal's head on a person's body.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But that is kind of the different forms of Set that we can see in art and hieroglyphics.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
JULIA: So interestingly, Amanda, Set is, more often than not, kind of categorized as a trickster god.
AMANDA: What did I say about him being hot, Julia?
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: What did I say?
JULIA: And all tricksters are hot.
AMANDA: Long limbs, unidentifiable shape. It's a trickster god, and that trickster god is the hottest person you've ever dated.
JULIA: That's true. That is true. That is true.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: He is described as being someone who enjoys lying and cheating and tricking people, just for the joy of it, but not necessarily because he has malicious intentions.
AMANDA: It's just fun. He can't help it. It's just his nature.
JULIA: Exactly. We will talk about some malicious intentions that he has later on when we talk about his stories. But I— I want to stress to you that this is a very black and white character when it comes to Egyptian mythology. He is, in many ways, a representation of chaos, which puts him into direct opposition to something that we know is extremely important to the ancient Egyptians, which is Maat, the divine order.
AMANDA: Exactly. That sounds like the exact Achilles heel to reference another character of Maat's whole situation.
JULIA: Yes. And this might seem a little confusing, because you might be like, "Well, if Maat is so important to the ancient Egyptians, why would they also worship Set who is in such opposition to Maat?" The thing is, Amanda, the ancient Egyptians believed and the religion dictated that Maat actually can only thrive when it is challenged. And so Set plays an incredibly important role as the Challenger of Maat.
AMANDA: Fascinating, and very needed. I think it's so important for there to be space in our belief systems and, like, drainage channels, you know, for— like, for all of the stuff that— that we don't necessarily treasure. You gotta, like, acknowledge and have a place for it somehow.
JULIA: Right. And it's also this understanding that the world can never be perfectly ordered. Things happen that are completely out of the control of human beings. So it's actually kind of important that he is this god of thunderstorms and earthquake and the desert, because these are forces that human beings and even the gods can't really contend with or tame. And so Set as this caricature of chaos, as this force of chaos, is extremely important, because Maat has to be counterbalanced in a way. Think of how the figure of Maat is the scales, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: If the scales were never balanced, it would always be out of whack, the universe.
AMANDA: Yeah. You don't know how much something weighs until you have an equal and opposite counterweight on the other side.
JULIA: Exactly. And so we know that Set is being worshiped by the ancient Egyptians, and I listed some of his domains before. We have thunderstorms, eclipses, earthquakes. I also mentioned that he's the god of the desert, which is a domain that he actually inherited from his father, which is the earth deity, Jeb. We've talked about Jeb. We talked about how Ra had to be tricked into allowing Jeb and Newt to have children, et cetera, et cetera, so we know a little bit about Jeb already. And as such, Set was said to be the protector of soldiers, hunters, merchants, and in general, any person who spent a considerable amount of time away from home.
AMANDA: Oh, good. I was gonna say something snarky about how it's like, "Oh, the real, like, salt of the earth professions, you know, merchants." But that makes to all the sense in the world that if you are far away from home, needing to navigate the wilderness, probably with some amount of desert between you and your loved ones that, you know, you want to call on the god that knows that the best.
JULIA: Exactly. He was the god that would protect the trade caravans that had to cross the desert. And in his association with the desert, he is also seen as the god of oases, because that represented where travelers could find respite from the harsh conditions of the desert. Again, this kind of balancing act that Set is constantly playing.
AMANDA: Another thing that based on cartoons that we watched as children, I thought I'd encounter way more in my adult life, quicksand and oases.
JULIA: You know what the thing is, Amanda? We just don't spend enough time near deserts.
AMANDA: No, we don't.
JULIA: In particular, the Sahara. We're nowhere near that.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So I also mentioned before that he is the god of foreign lands, but in particular, he uses that domain as a way of basically sowing chaos and confusion among enemy armies so that Egypt's forces would succeed in battle.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: So— and we'll talk about this a little more, but in some later religious texts, he was the one that helped to protect the pharaoh, and was even permitted to ride on and protect the solar barge that Ra uses to cross the sky every day.
AMANDA: I mean, that's a long journey. That makes sense to me.
JULIA: Let's— let's talk about his historical origins, where he came from, because I think that's something we've touched on with the other gods, but I also think that it's very important to kind of see the historical change that happens to Set and his worship over time. It's most likely that Set originated as a desert deity before the— as we understand it, canon of ancient Egyptian mythology was solidified. In these early periods, he represented forces of disturbance in the world and the confusion that disturbance would bring to mortal beings. So, again, this idea that he is earthquakes and just things that people can't necessarily plan for. Natural disasters.
AMANDA: Big disruptions in your day and life, and then you're like, "What the hell?" And it makes sense that all of those are grouped together.
JULIA: Exactly. Now, the stories that we've told so far about Set in previous episodes, they don't paint him in a great light. Part of that is because of how his worship came in and out of favor over the history of ancient Egypt. And we know from records that his worship was equal to gods like Horus during the second dynasty.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: And we know that he was mentioned in the Pyramid Texts of the Old Kingdom, which indicates that he was playing an important role during that time in the religious movements of Egypt.
AMANDA: And makes sense too, if he has sort of pre, you know, Egyptian dynasty roots as well.
JULIA: Exactly. Now, by the Middle Kingdom, we know that he was associated with Ra and the solar theology. He was acting as protector for the sun god's barge. And every day, he was said to fight off attacks from Apep who is the cosmic serpent.
AMANDA: Oh, dang.
JULIA: Again, this idea of like you have light and darkness, balance and chaos. And in fact, Set is actually acting as a destructive force, but one that is fending off chaos in part of this cycle that's happening.
AMANDA: Like a gutter, Julia, you channel the chaos and then you water your plants.
JULIA: Precisely, precisely. We also know at this time he was folded into the kind of royal family, or the council of the gods. And as we've— we've talked about before, he is the son of Newt and the brother of Osiris and Isis and Nephthys, as we've mentioned in previous episodes.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, because the council of the gods is also the royal family of the gods, do you think it's like a business, like a family business, where they're like, "We're all family here." But actually, that's just a cover to, like, treat their employees abysmally?
JULIA: I think I'm going to allow you to reserve judgment about that, because we are going to talk—
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: —about the council of gods a lot in the latter half of this episode.
AMANDA: Oh, my God. Hell yeah.
JULIA: So he's part of this royal family, he's part of this council of gods. But as time passes, Set's worship starts to decline, starting with the 20th Dynasty, where his association with foreign lands starts aligning him with Egypt's enemies, like the Assyrians, for example. And by the 25th Dynasty, the worship of Set had basically ended, and he had become what we understand him to kind of be now, which is this ominous villain that was out there acting against and tricking the other gods.
AMANDA: Studying Egyptian history is wild, because you can say things like the 25th Dynasty, and my brain goes, "We're not at the 25th century yet."
JULIA: Amanda, the amount of times I wrote century instead of dynasty when doing my notes, you would not believe.
AMANDA: Like, Xenon was only the girl in the 22nd century. We're not even dreaming that far.
JULIA: We're not even dreaming that far.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So partially, this kind of ominous villain role that he plays, this— this demonization, I would say, of Set can be blamed on the colonization of Egypt by the Greeks and then the Romans, especially during the late periods of ancient Egyptian history. There is an Egyptologist whose name is Dr. Herman te Velde. He wrote this book that's kind of all about this. It's called Set, the God of Confusion.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And he has a really interesting view on why Set gets painted in such a bad light at the end of the ancient Egypt period. Now, he believes that Set as someone who had traditionally been seen as a god of foreigners, therefore became associated with the foreign oppressors who had conquered and now ruled Egypt.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: It's during this time that Set really becomes vilified, and the story of Set and Osiris, as well as Set's defeat by Horus, which we will talk about later, became so popularized in what I would consider the canon of Egyptian mythology. It's this time period where his worst traits are emphasized, his killing and the desecration of Osiris' body in particular, are really key examples of let's not focus on the good stuff he's doing, let's only focus on the bad.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And it's actually really funny because based on that, the Greeks started associating him with the Greek monster Typhon.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —who is basically, in Greek mythology, is responsible for natural disasters and calamities. But at the same time, it's a little bit ironic, because the Egyptians are like, "It's you, it's you, colonizer." And they're like, "Oops. Oh, yeah. He must be like the— the monster guy, like we have." And they're like, "But he represents you now." But, you know, like Loki.
AMANDA: No, Julia, it's simply impossible. It's simply impossible to have that amount of self-reflection.
JULIA: No, no, definitely not. The Greeks, not self-reflective at all.
AMANDA: But no ,that— that, again, makes a ton of sense, because when the outside world is no longer like a source of, you know, luxury goods and, you know, interesting travel, and potentially, you know, a good living as a merchant, and instead a invading force and an infecting force. Of course, any associations with, like, life outside of the Egyptian kingdom is going to take on a different tinge.
JULIA: And it's also really interesting, because you kind of see this transition of, you know, the extremely powerful ancient Egyptian military and everything like that. As they start declining and they start losing and outside forces become more powerful, they start kind of blaming Set for that. He becomes—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —this character that is responsible for the foreign armies doing better, rather than being the one responsible for sowing chaos within the— the foreign armies. And I think that's a really interesting historical transition that we see reflected in mythology, which is one of my favorite parts about learning about Egyptian mythology.
AMANDA: Also, I have to say that book is titled like Set: The God of Confusion, makes the mythology and folklore section of the bookstore the best section to go to.
JULIA: It really is.
AMANDA: Always go into a new bookstore and look at the local shelves, and then secondly, look at mythology, folklore and religion.
JULIA: You should. A 100%. So with that in mind, Amanda, knowing and understanding the transition that Set went through in terms of ancient Egyptian mythology, religion and history, I cannot wait to tell you more about Set and some of his foundational stories, but first we gotta grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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JULIA: Hey, this is Julia. And welcome to the refill. Shout out, of course, to our patrons. Thank you so much to our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Hannah, Jane, Jeremiah, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. As well as our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can join us at patreon.com/spiritspodcast to get cool rewards, like hey, ad-free episodes. You can get bonus urban legends episodes. You can get recipe cards, mocktails and cocktails for every single episode, all at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. My recommendation for you this week, hey, watch a bad horror movie. I am a little bit of a snob when it comes to horror movies, but sometimes it's really fun to watch a bad one. A recent bad one that I enjoyed was Tarot on Netflix. It was very silly. It was scary at times, but mostly, very silly. And I love a scary movie that is supposed to be scary, but also happens to be silly. Big fan of that. So check that out. But on a separate note, if you are not feeling the silly, scary vibe, how about silly space vibes? Check out Pale Blue Pod. Pale Blue Pod is an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe, but still want to be its friend. Astrophysicist Dr. Moiya McTier and comedian Corinne Caputo demystify space one topic at a time with open eyes, open arms, and open mouths from so much like laughing and jaw-dropping. By the end of each episode, the cosmos will feel a little less, "Ah, too scary," and a lot more, "Ooh, so cool." You can get that wherever you get your podcast with new episodes every Monday. We're sponsored this week by Blueland. And hey, did you know that laundry detergent pods are wrapped in plastic? That film that is around your pods is plastic, and it means it's not only ending up in your washer and your clothes, but it's also ending up in our rivers and our oceans and our soils. I love Blueland, because Blueland, no plastic around their detergent things. And Blueland has also launched a first of its kind, fragranced laundry detergent tablet in the scent spring bloom, which is available now as of August 6th. After two years of extensive research and development, Blueland has successfully created a fragrance tablet that not only maintains the company's commitment to powerful plastic-free efficiency, but also delivers a delightful scent that customers have been— that customers have been requesting for years. The spring bloom fragrance is a captivating blend of sun ripen citrus, fresh wild flowers and golden amber, and they are proven to lift out the toughest stains, from grass stains to food stains. And as someone who is in a household that gets a lot of stains on our clothes, let me tell you, it does the job. I love it. And I just love Blueland. All the products that I've gotten from them smell amazing. They work great. You've heard me talk about the bath bombs for your toilet, aka their toilet cleaners. Their products are just something that I order again and again and again. And Blueland has a special offer for listeners. Right now, get 15% off your first order by going to blueland.com/spirits. You won't want to miss this, blueland.com/spirits for 15% off. That's blueland.com/spirits to get 15% off. And this episode is sponsored by Wildgrain. I love getting my Wildgrain package delivered to my door, and then waking up on a Sunday to Jake having already made a bunch of croissants. It is one of my favorite experiences of all time. It is delightful. And I also love Wildgrain during the summer, because I grow a lot of basil, and I can make some homemade pesto and throw it on some of their fresh pasta. I love Wildgrain. Wildgrain is the first ever baked-from-frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, fresh pastas and artisanal pastries. Every item bakes from frozen in 25 minutes or less with no thawing required. Your Wildgrain box is fully customizable, so you can choose any combination of breads or pastas or pastries that you want. And Wildgrain just launched a brand-new plant-based box featuring a wide selection of plant-based pastries, breads and hand cut pastas. So if you've been waiting for a— a vegan, vegetarian option from Wildgrain, it's available now. And for a limited time, you can get $30 off the first box, plus free croissants in every box when you go to wildgrain.com/spirits to start your subscription. You heard me, free croissants in every box, and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgrain.com/spirits. That's wildgrain.com/spirits, or you can use promo code Spirits at checkout. And now, let's get back to the show.
[theme]
JULIA: We're back. And for Set, I've chosen a cocktail that I've found that is called the Waters of Chaos.
AMANDA: So you.
JULIA: Oh, it's— it's very Julia-coated, Amanda, because of course, it has my favorite ingredient of all time, green chartreuse.
AMANDA: Green chartreuse.
JULIA: But also it features overproof white rum, which I enjoy. It's got a real Tiki vibe to it. And also another interesting flavor, which is Jenever, which is kind of like a Dutch juniper liquor—
AMANDA: Oh, cool.
JULIA: —that's similar to gin, but it's much more like punch-y juniper forward.
AMANDA: That's awesome. I'm sure you can also like steep juniper berries in stuff.
JULIA: You gotta be careful because they are poisonous if you don't process them properly. But—
AMANDA: As I said that, I said to myself, "Wait, I think that's one of the berries you're not supposed to just eat." Anyway, but that's— that's really interesting.
JULIA: Yeah. So if you can't find it in your local liquor store, and you would like to make this cocktail, I would say just pick a very juniper-forward gin. There are some, like, good options out there, and you could definitely ask the person at your local liquor store, "Hey, which one's the most juniper-forward?" And they probably know. But for the authentic vibe of this cocktail, I would say, get the Jenever if you can.
AMANDA: So you're sure that you shouldn't just pick juniper berries and fuck around, and find out what poisonous—
JULIA: I mean, that's a real Set move. That's a real chaotic choice. I can't condone it.
AMANDA: I think our liability insurance does not cover openly telling people to make tinctures of poisonous berries.
JULIA: I had to be really careful about what we said in the mushrooms episode, so this is one of those situations right there. All right. So with these in hand, Amanda, and with that chaotic energy, let's move forward.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: So we've got Set who is this powerful deity who, towards the end of the ancient Egyptian history, was this very villainous figure. He is a god of chaos and destruction. He can call upon storms and the desert. He represents the destructive forces of the world, but is also considered essential to the natural balance of the universe. So Set is playing an important role at this point. As we start to tell these stories, most of which are from the later portion of Egyptian history.
AMANDA: Yeah, but he's not some— something that we're trying to eliminate altogether. Like, his— his role, his necessity in the order, is definitely there. It's just like, "Oh, Set, you're so funny. Out of— out of— you know, out of pocket again."
JULIA: Yes. So it's one of those things where he is this force of destruction, but he's also one of the gods that's out there, making sure that the continuation of the cosmic order is preserved.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: He's out there on Ra's barge every day and night, making sure that it can complete its journey. He might be this like god of disorder, but by being a force of chaos, he's actually helping to maintain the harmony of the universe.
AMANDA: He's just like my dad's cousin Jimmy Mac, Julia, which is sometimes you're like, "Is Jimmy Mac coming to this barbecue? Got to prepare myself." But if he's not there, you'd really miss him.
JULIA: Yes. And in that same light, Amanda, he is a god of contradictions, you know? He is referred to in some texts as the Red One, where he is described as a temperamental god who personifies rage and violence. He's also the god of the red land, which is the desert, and therefore—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —as opposed to vegetation and the life that relies on it. And as the god of the red land, he opposes the fertile black land, which is literally—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —the— the lands of Egypt, you know, where the Kingdom of Egypt is.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And he is always being put at odds against either Osiris or Horus, depending on where in the cosmology timeline we are.
AMANDA: Yeah, all those agriculture and, like, societal order vibes.
JULIA: Yes. And keep in mind, the ancient Egyptians realized that their gods were complex in nature. No Egyptian god is wholly good or wholly bad, as we see in many other mythologies. While he is associated with violence, it was his image that the Egyptians would carry into battle, so that they might embody Set's violence and strength, you know?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So keep all this in mind as we— we start to tell these stories, because he is— he's a complex character, and it's not as simple of like, "Oh, he's like a twirling— his mustache villain gonna tie someone to a train tracks."
AMANDA: Definitely. Yeah, and not— not quite like Loki, who's just gonna, like, pop and then fucking shit up. Like you— you need Set around.
JULIA: Yes, you do. You do. And you need Loki around in order to create the chaos that most of the mythology, that Norse mythology was based around. Like, you wouldn't have all of the foundational Balder stories if it wasn't for Loki.
AMANDA: Yeah. Loki is— is a real, like, you know, main character vibe, but Set is, like, one of the ensemble. Like he is— he is, like, there and his part is assured.
JULIA: Right. And it's one of those things too, where much like Balder— if you didn't have the Balder story, so much wouldn't happen in Norse mythology.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: If you didn't have the story of Set killing Osiris, you wouldn't have a lot of the stories that we have about Egyptian mythology.
AMANDA: Let's get to it. How did it go down?
JULIA: All right. So we've told the story of Osiris' murder so many times so far this series, so I won't do it again.
AMANDA: But, Julia, we gotta get, like, all eight angles of the scene as we retell it from each and every person's perspective.
JULIA: It's a real Rashomon situation—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —where I just keep doing this over and over again. In Set's perspective, the murder of Osiris is always justified.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Because, again, you know, you're not just like a murderer, just for funsies. Usually, you think that your reason is justified. It's always because he's jealous of Osiris, though. Sometimes it's because, as we've mentioned before, he's jealous of Osiris' power and the fact that Osiris was promised to be the king of the gods, where Set was like, "I should have been promised that when I was born."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "What's up with that? What's wrong with me?" Other versions of the tale say that it's because Set is in love with Isis who married Osiris rather than him.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: A classic kind of motivation for that sort of thing. And another tale says that Set's wife, Nephthys, was also in love with Osiris and had used magic to disguise herself as Isis so that she could sleep with Osiris.
AMANDA: Insult to injury.
JULIA: And also, in this version of the tale, Set is supposed to be the father of Anubis, but is implied that Osiris, instead, is the father. It's very Jerry Springer.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. Oh, no, that's— that's bad.
JULIA: That's bad. It's real bad. But they didn't have paternity tests back then, so—
AMANDA: Nope.
JULIA: Whoops.
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
JULIA: And then kind of spinning off that, Set was also said to be jealous of the close relationship that Osiris and Anubis formed, and that was the kind of last straw for Set's jealousy.
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: So as we know, that all leads to Osiris' death, Isis attempting to save him, and the birth of Horus. What we haven't had a chance to talk about yet is the battle between Horus and Set for the right to inherit Osiris' throne.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So this is known as The Contendings of Set And Horus.
AMANDA: Oh, good word.
JULIA: I know, it's really good. Let's get going. Okay. So when Osiris died, the council of the gods knew that they needed to find a new king of the gods. Pretty much everything to the gods at this point points to Horus being the heir. He's the only son of Osiris. It makes sense for him to inherit.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But there's a problem. Horus is pretty newly born at this point.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: You know, he's not— he's not a baby at this point in the story. So he can, let's say, compete for the thing, but he is young, and he's inexperienced, as in terms of the gods.
AMANDA: Yeah. He's not wise enough, perhaps, or seasoned enough to rule.
JULIA: Yes. And this is when Set makes his move. He makes a claim that he should be the rightful heir as Osiris' brother.
AMANDA: Got it. Yes. I mean, also how— how patrilineal ruling works. Sometimes you have the regent when the— when the kid's a baby.
JULIA: Exactly. So the council of gods is called to determine whose claim is legitimate, and whose claim should result in inheriting throne. By Set throwing his hat into the ring, it leaves them with a conundrum, because there's no easy way for them to determine who should be king. House of the Dragon, take note.
AMANDA: And time, I think, for our biannual appeal to make a will if you have assets.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: It's a good idea.
JULIA: It's a good idea. This council cannot decide who should take the throne, even though Ra at this point as kind of the leader of the council, the leader of the gods, he is heavily advocating for Set.
AMANDA: Oh, that surprises me. I— I'm gonna guess he doesn't want, like, the competency of the ruler to be disrupted while Horus kind of gets his legs under him.
JULIA: That is part of it, and that's the argument that he makes to the rest of the gods on the council. But also, keep in mind, Set is the one who is protecting Ra day in and day out on the solar barge, and fighting off the cosmic serpent.
AMANDA: I mean, you don't want to piss off the bodyguard, right?
JULIA: Exactly.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So they have a connection. They have a— a rapport, let's say.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And so Ra is like, "Well, you know, he's older.
He is more experienced, if not, level-headed, I suppose. So maybe, it should be Set."
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: The council decides that they're going to allow an impartial god to decide who should inherit this throne, and they call upon a god named Banebdjedet. Now, Banebdjedet, I tried to kind of like, look up. I'm like, "What's your deal, man? Who are you?" And he's not really the god of anything. In some versions—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —of the tale, his cult is based around the fact that he might have been the Ba, like one of the parts of the soul of Osiris, but—
AMANDA: Got it.
JULIA: —he— he's definitely not Osiris. I should clarify. Banebdjedet gets this call and is like, "You have to decide who is going to take over the throne of Osiris." And he is very nervous about this responsibility. And so not wanting to anger the council or Ra, because Ra is kind of in charge of everything. He's like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —"Oh, actually, I'm not qualified for this at all. But you know who would be great for this job? The goddess Neith," who is the goddess of the primeval waters, like where all of the universe came out of, basically.
AMANDA: The cosmic womb. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: The cosmic womb. She invented pregnancy and birth.
AMANDA: There it is.
JULIA: "So she's been around forever. We should totally trust her judgment. Let's ask her." And the council's like, "Yeah, okay. Sure. Whatever." So they send a letter to Neith, because I guess they couldn't summon her. It takes a few weeks, and when finally her response arrives—
AMANDA: Oh, my God. I love that, like, the slowness of the postal system is involved in this foundational ancient Egyptian myth.
JULIA: I know, and I'm just like, "How did that work? Who sent it? Like, what— what's the deal? What does the postal system look like when you're trying to send the embodiment of the primeval waters a letter?"
AMANDA: Yeah. Do you like feed it? You put it in a glass bottle, feed it to like a trustworthy fish and be like, "Figure it out."
JULIA: Good luck out there. So they send the letter. Finally, after weeks, it returns, and her response is, "Horus should be king." This pisses off Ra.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Because he is like, "You want a child to be king? He's too young. He's too inexperienced."
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: And Set also extremely pissed off about this, because the—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —ruling did not come in his favor.
AMANDA: No. And Julia, such a classic like committee move to commission or pay somebody to give you an answer, and they send it in, and you're like, "I don't like it."
JULIA: "I don't like it. Get it out of here." So at this point, Amanda, Isis steps in.
AMANDA: Oh, thank God. Someone with sense, someone with sense.
JULIA: And she starts just berating this council because she's like, "Why can't you make a decision? Like you want Set, the guy who killed Osiris to be able to inherit the throne of the brother that he killed? That's extremely fucked up."
AMANDA: I mean, no. Yeah, don't— don't like that.
JULIA: So Ra's like, "Compelling argument. But aren't you a little biased, given the fact that it was your husband that got killed? And of course, you're pissed at Set for killing him, and besides, Set never even got a fair trial."
AMANDA: I'm pretty sure it's—
JULIA: "He might not have even killed Osiris." Meanwhile, he's bragging about it everywhere.
AMANDA: Yeah, I was gonna say—
JULIA: Whatever.
AMANDA: —that's like— that's not in dispute, I don't think.
JULIA: Well, Ra doesn't care, and Ra decides they're gonna have a trial on the island, in the middle of the Nile so that the jury can come to a decision without any outside pressure. And that includes Isis, who is barred from the trial.
AMANDA: Oh, okay. I mean, just because her husband got murdered, you should, like, ask her opinion, I think.
JULIA: Well, she gave her opinion. She's like, "This man killed my husband. Don't make him king." And they're like, "Hmm, good point, but, hmm, fair trial first."
AMANDA: Seems like a worthwhile opinion, but that's just me.
JULIA: Yes. Well, Isis, Amanda, Isis is a tricky bitch. I love that for her. So all the gods go to this island for the trial. And Isis, clever as she is, disguises herself and bribes the ferryman to take her over.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: She disguises herself as a beautiful, young woman and Set immediately upon seeing her, falls in love with her.
AMANDA: Julia, tell me, why did I picture her on the Staten Island Ferry, simply putting on sunglasses and going, "No one can see me. No one can see me."?
JULIA: You know what, Amanda? That's the kind of energy she brings to everything.
AMANDA: Okay. Good, good.
JULIA: So she uses this immediate falling in love with her to her advantage.
AMANDA: You gotta.
JULIA: And so she's like, "Oh, woe is me. I used to be married to a wealthy man, and we had a child together, but the man, he died." Sounds familiar, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: She's like, "Well, I put my son in charge of watching the cattle. But one day, this man came to the farm that we lived on, and I was like, 'Well, you can stay here for as long as you need. Let me show you a little kindness. You can, you know, make yourself at home here.' However, this man, he takes advantage of that kindness, and instead, he starts claiming that the land and the cattle are actually his."
AMANDA: Hmm. Is Set hearing any alarm bells going off yet?
JULIA: No, because at this point, she goes, "Isn't that so unfair of him? How dare he?" And Set's like, "Yeah, that's super fucked up. How could someone do that?"
AMANDA: Yeah, pretty woman. Yeah.
JULIA: And he specifically says, he says, "A man can't claim the cattle of a late owner so long as the late owner's son is still alive."
AMANDA: Self-own, absolute self-own.
JULIA: And Isis goes, "Psych, bitch. I'm out!"
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And turns into a kite, flies away, and rats him out to Ra.
AMANDA: I wish I could turn into a kite and fly away when I have my, like, mic drop line that I've rehearsed all day.
JULIA: Yeah. Don't you— don't you just wish, you know?
AMANDA: So much, so much.
JULIA: I— like, I wouldn't use it for anything else. It would just be for that.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, no. I wouldn't fly. I wouldn't, like, use my powers for material gain, nothing.
JULIA: You can use it to fly away only after a great one line.
AMANDA: Yes. Like, Julia, I've been telling you about this summer on Big Brother, where this woman Angela said, "Your words are shit, so shove them back up your ass. And it was an incredible moment, but would have been much better if she had turned into a kite and flown away."
JULIA: I agree, I agree.
AMANDA: And then CBS would have said, "Ma'am, you're off the show." And she would have said, "Worth it."
JULIA: "Ma'am, we have to stop the live feed. You can't say stuff like that."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: All right. So now keep in mind, Ra still wants Set to be king—
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: —but with this evidence, he really can't side with Set publicly.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So instead, he tells the council, "Actually, the trial shouldn't be decided by a jury and judges. We should do a series of trials that Set and Horus have to compete in, and then whoever wins the most will be proclaimed the king of all the gods of Egypt."
AMANDA: So it's like— it looks like a man versus a teen, right? Like, this is kind of not a fair matchup.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah, it's really not a fair matchup. And at this point, Set is like, "I just have to beat a kid. Easy."
AMANDA: Fair.
JULIA: "First challenge, we're gonna dive into the Nile, and whoever holds their breath the longest is the winner."
AMANDA: I mean, okay.
JULIA: Now, keep in mind, Amanda, Set is not only associated with crocodiles, but also hippos. And this like might seem like a really childish for a challenge, but also keep in mind that the Nile is incredibly important, religiously and cosmology-wise.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: And also Set has an incredible advantage. He— he— he's a hippo man, he's a crocodile man.
AMANDA: Crocs and hippos love him. Big lungs, Julia.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Big lungs.
JULIA: Big lungs, holding their breath forever. So Isis sees that her son is probably gonna lose this first trial, and so she does what any mother would do, which is make a harpoon out of copper, and then spear Set with it, so he's forced to surface.
AMANDA: Ah. Oh, my.
JULIA: She stabs him with a harpoon, pulls him out of the water, and the council of gods is like, "Uh, well, I guess this one doesn't count?"
AMANDA: Oh, my God. The— like, this is— this is like Parks and Rec level of bureaucratic waffling. They've changed the method of decision-making for Succession, like, seven times. And it's— and it's— it's— the story's not even done yet.
JULIA: Yes. And so at this point, Set is injured and furious, and he knows that, like, he was gonna win that, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And so in his anger, he gouges out Horus' eyes.
AMANDA: Ah. That is a— whoa.
JULIA: That is incredibly important. We're gonna talk about the Eye of Horus in the next episode, when we talk about Horus properly.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: But at this point, Isis, again, best mom in the world, steps in, manages to cure his injuries using both her healing magic and also some soothing milk.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Now at this point, the gods have just watched Set gouged out the eyes of basically a teenager.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And they're like— even Ra at this point is like, "You know what, Horus, even though he's young and inexperienced, he would be a better king than Set." And so they're like, "Horus, you got this one from us."
AMANDA: Brutal.
JULIA: So Horus is at this point— I don't know, like the— the timing is a little weird, so it's either like, "Oh, Horus, you— you win that challenge. One point to you." Or it is, "Horus, Set would be a bad king. You're the king now." It's one of those things. But either way, it's seen as a victory for Horus.
AMANDA: I mean, bummer for Horus, re the eyes, but at least he got his job.
JULIA: Yes. And this leads nicely into kind of our final story of note for Set, Amanda, which is the lettuce incident.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Just a content warning at the top for this. This story features a lot of sexual content and also sexual assault, so I would skip to the end if— if you're not feeling those topics right now.
AMANDA: This has been a 180 of tone. Let's go.
JULIA: The— you'll see, you'll see, you'll see what I mean. On the night of Horus' victory over Set, the— the one we were just talking about, the gods decide to throw a new party for Horus to celebrate his victory. All of the gods in Egypt were invited, and there were so many gods there that some were forced to share tents, including, probably inadvisably, I would say, Horus and Set.
AMANDA: That seems like the two people you don't have share a tent.
JULIA: You would think that they would put them on opposite sides of the area, but no, they didn't. They shared a tent.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Now, when he thought Horus was sleeping, and because we know that he is extremely pissed off and also a trickster god, Set, for lack of a better phrase, tries to ejaculate on Horus, which cosmology and religious and mythology-wise, this is a kind of power move that Set is trying to use on Horus. I'll explain a little bit more as— as we get into this, but he tries to do that. However, Horus is a god and senses Set's presence as well as his intentions, and he catches the semen in one hand. He doesn't let it touch his body. It's just all in the one hand.
AMANDA: I didn't think we'd get into the physics of ejaculate here today, but here we are.
JULIA: He, then— I don't know if it's in the morning, but he basically like— Set doesn't know, but Horus gets up and he goes to Isis, and he tells her about what's happened. Now, again, keep in mind, this is kind of implied to be like a magic and power of leadership thing. This is a big deal what Set tried to do to Horus. So Isis' actions are not considered extreme in this moment when she cuts off Horus' hand.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: This is the hand with the semen in it.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: And she throws it into the Nile, hand and all.
AMANDA: Is there some kind of, like, you know, the— the— the contagion of, like, Set's essence might, like, change Horus? Like, is that kind of where we're going with this?
JULIA: It's not that. It's almost like a marking thing.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: So at this point, Isis is pissed, but she's also extremely clever as we've talked about a million times at this point. So she decides to turn the table. She's gonna Uno Reverse Set here.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So she gathers some of Horus' semen, unclear how, the Egyptians don't make a big deal of it, so I'm not going to either.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: She then goes to the Garden of the Gods and asks the gardener, "What vegetables among the garden are Set's favorite?"
AMANDA: Oh, no. I'm seeing now why this is called the lettuce incident.
JULIA: The gardener says, "This bitch loves lettuce." And so Isis spreads Horus' semen on the lettuce, and ensures that later that day, a delicious meal of lettuce would be served at a feast. After the feast, Amanda, after everyone's eaten, they're— they're full, Set stands up in front of all the other gods, and he says, "I have an announcement to make."
AMANDA: Can I— can I guess what the announcement is, Julia?
JULIA: Sure, go ahead.
AMANDA: Did you like that dressing, bitch?
JULIA: No, it is not. So Seth stands up, he says, "I have an announcement to make, "I have—" and this is the way that the translation phrases it. "I have done the male's work on Horus, and therefore, I'd be a better king than Horus ever would." And so in order to prove that, he attempts to do a piece of magic where, again, the translation refers to it as calling his seed.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: When he attempts to do that, he finds that it is not on Horus, but rather in the middle of the Nile.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Isis, at this point, in my head, she does a little smirk. And then she stands up and she calls Horus' seed, which then appears to everyone within Set's body, which makes it seem like Horus has done to Set what Set had tried to do to him, giving another victory to Horus.
AMANDA: That is a true Uno Reverse card situation. I am picturing it as a black light in, you know, like a dirty hotel room type situation where she's like— snaps her fingers, the— the chandelier goes to black light mode, and they're like, "Whoa."
JULIA: Yes. Yeah, that is also how I'm kind of picturing it. I— I'm a picturing a golden glow, for some reason, but I also love— I don't love the black light imagery when I— appreciate the black light imagery.
AMANDA: I do love it. I do.
JULIA: All right, fair. I did love— I love that the gardener is like, "This bitch loves lettuce," and she's like, "Okay."
AMANDA: He loves lettuce, yeah.
JULIA: "Whatever. Whatever you say."
AMANDA: Oh, baby. Wow.
JULIA: Now, at this point in the stories, in the mythology, Horus and Set kind of continue battles back and forth, these contests between them, either because it still isn't settled yet, or because Set keeps trying to, like, reignite the contest and appeal the decisions of all the contests. He keeps being like, "No, no, no. We're not done yet. We're not done yet." And this continues over and over again. Some sources say it takes 80 years of them competing back and forth. Some don't determine the amount of time, just that it's a long time. And then finally, the council is like, "Wait a second. We should just ask Osiris who should have its throne."
AMANDA: Oh, that's right. We have a— we have a telephone line to— to the dead.
JULIA: Well, they have a way of sending letters to the dead, Amanda. So once again, they send a letter—
AMANDA: The most trustworthy fish.
JULIA: Yes. So they send a letter to Osiris, and Osiris responds, and he obviously, obviously, Amanda, picks his son over the brother that killed him.
AMANDA: Yeah. He's like, "How about my child instead of my murderer? Just an idea."
JULIA: Just a thought, just a suggestion. Finally, the matter is resolved. Horus is made king of the gods. He is put in charge of restoring the cosmic order in the land of Egypt. And everyone, except Set, rejoices. But, Amanda, there's more to the story than that.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: It'll have to be continued in our next episode, all about Horus himself.
AMANDA: Incredible. If this was designed, Julia, to be a parable about the dangers and wastefulness of lines of succession that are improperly planned, it really did its work, and I'm very excited to learn more about the rule and life of Horus in our next Egyptian episode.
JULIA: It's going to be so much fun. So the next time that you have to compete against your uncle for the throne, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[theme]