Episode 37: Rainbow Serpent
/Happy Pride! Now, let’s talk about the heat death of the universe. ...okay, it’s not THAT dark, but we go a little nuts talking about the Australian Aboriginal story of the Rainbow Serpent. We discuss Hogwarts’ lack of sex ed, how stories change with the environment, and how not EVERYTHING has to be phallic, jeez. See that rainbow up there? That means water and rain (and goofs) aren’t too far behind.
Thank you to Audible for returning as a sponsor! Visit http://audible.com/spirits for a free book and a 30-day trial. This week we recommend the audiobooks A Natural History of Dragons by Marie Brennan and Borne by Jeff Vandermeer.
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Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 37: Rainbow Serpent.
JS: Happy Pride.
AM: Happy. Uh, uh, it's a rainbow just for me.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Thank you.
JS: I took it just for you.
AM: Awww.
JS: You know I love you.
AM: Thank you, babe. And it's a really, really badass name and a really bad ass myth. Lots of you have requested it. So, I'm really excited that we got to cover it.
JS: So Amanda, to celebrate pride and to celebrate the Rainbow Serpent. What are we drinking this week?
AM: Today, we're drinking, actually, a drink that I made up.
JS: Really excited. Tell me more.
AM: Thank you. I am calling it the Garden Snake, because it's a nonalcoholic version of the Serpent’s Tail Shooter, which is the drink we made for our patrons this week. And it is the dopest.
JS: Yes.
AM: You gave me the recipe, and I love it. Anyway. But I made this nonalcoholic version that, actually, today, I added gin to. Anyway, the non alcoholic drink --
JS: [Inaudible0:40].
AM: -- is a lemonade with pomegranate juice and a little bit of lime or lemon depending what you have on hand. Anyway --
JS: And you layer it, right? It’s a layered drink.
AM: -- and you layer it. Yeah. It's really pretty.
JS: Because rainbow.
AM: I know – I know Pride. And, and I added gin because, you know --
JS: Because it's Spirits.
AM: -- why not. Because, because I'm free and queer. And it's 2017 and I can drink gin when I want to.
JS: I'm proud of you.
AM: Anyway, if you're a $5 plus patron, you are getting that recipe in your inbox today. And it is beautiful.
JS: Speaking of which, thank you and welcome to our new patrons: Colleen, Tiff, and Rudy.
AM: And, as always, the biggest of all shout outs, the glitteriest of all pride banners, the biggest of all pride parades to LeeAnn, Shannon, Phil, Catherine, Kristina, MCF, Megan, Sara, Katie, Derek, and Debra, our supporting producer-level patrons.
JS: They rock,and we love them.
AM: We love them so much.
JS: May you me be covered in glitter this entire month, but in a good way, not in a I can't get the glitter off me kind of way.
AM: Maybe covered in glitter that actually comes off in your first shower.
JS: Yes.
AM: And you never see it again --
JS: I mean that's good.
AM: -- which never happens. Glitter responsibly good.
JS: It's a monster. Glitter is a monster. Speaking of monsters --
AM: Oh, no.
JS: -- we are so close to having a monstrous amount of reviews and ratings on iTunes. I need you to appreciate that pun.
AM: I can't – I can't scowl at it, because it's so good.
JS: It was so good.
AM: But, yeah, we're close to 200 reviews on iTunes. Yay.
JS: We also broke today the top 100 of society and culture on the iTunes charts.
AM: Yes. Our --
JS: So, get in there, subscribe, rate, review.
AM: Even if you use a podcast app that isn't Apple podcasts, if you just like open the podcast app on your iPhone or iTunes on your desktop and just subscribe to us and like close it and never look at it again, that helps us out. It really does.
JS: That – it super does. Even if you don't download it, subscriptions help for some reason on Apple. We don't know why.
AM: The inscrutable magic that is the iTunes charts.
JS: Literal magic.
AM: Basically, I just want to break the top 100 of iTunes guys, that's not – that's not too much to ask.
JS: Just not so much.
AM: Just a little Pride gift from, from you to me.
JS: And this week, we want to thank Audible for returning as a sponsor for the podcast.
AM: Yay, Audible. You guys may know the drill by now, but you can visit audible.com/spirits for a free 30-day trial and a free audiobook. We have so many recommendations for you. We're going to bring them to you later in the episode, but that's audible.com/spirits.
JS: Okay. Cool. So, let's get to that episode. Shall we.
AM: All right, y'all. Enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 37: Rainbow Serpent.
Intro Music:
JS: So, Amanda this week is a topic that was suggested to us by a couple of people on Twitter.
AM: Ooh.
JS: And I've been wanting to do it for a while. But, since it's June and it's Pride Month, I figured --
AM: That it is.
JS: -- this was the perfect time to do it. So, this week we are going to talk about the Rainbow Serpent, which doesn't really have anything to do with Pride but just rainbows and --
AM: But it's a rainbow.
JS: Yeah. It's a rainbow.
AM: I love it.
JS: All right.
AM: Let's do it.
JS: Let's do it up. First things first, we should establish that the Rainbow Serpent or Rainbow Snake – it goes by both. So, I'm probably going to be using both interchangeably through the episode.
AM: Cool
JS: So, don't get thrown off if you hear snake versus serpent or serpent vs snake or whatever.
AM: Nice. It's not like alligator/crocodile where there's an actual difference.
JS: Right. No. There is not an actual difference in this situation.
AM: The literary word and the not literary word.
JS: Someone on Twitter is gonna be like, “Actually, there’s a difference between a serpent and a snake.” And I’m just like, “All right. Fair enough. Not right now though.” So, the Rainbow Serpent is a part of aboriginal Australian culture. But these stories and names of the serpent change depending on which tribe is telling the story. So, for example, the Miali tribe would refer to the Rainbow Serpent as Borlung, while the Kuli would refer to it as the Dhakkan. There's a million other ones as well, but those are just some examples.
AM: But it's sort of like an overarching myth that is, you know, shared and interpreted by many different people.
JS: Exactly. So, the term that we use now, Rainbow Serpent, was coined by an English anthropologist named Alfred Radcliffe-Brown, who noticed that the same concept was spread throughout the various aboriginal cultures. And, while this term makes it seem like there's only one Rainbow Serpent, it actually varies from culture to culture. Some believe that there's a singular serpent. Some believe that there are multiple snakes.
AM: Cool.
JS: So, a lot of research that I was doing at the beginning of doing research for this episode, kind of suggested that the Rainbow Serpent was a Creator God and the most prominent religious figure, but this is because most of what I was reading was through like a Western understanding --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- which, you know, is a bit of a problem when you're looking at a culture that is kind of have been colonized by Western culture.
AM: Yeah
JS: So, not great.
AM: Like can't help but apply that sort of like monotheistic, you know, Judeo-Christian perspective to the myths.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Not to mention, like, if the culture is where oral traditions or like didn't have, you know, like written records in the way that, you know, the kind of West is used to, so much is lost in translation.
JS: Yeah. So, when I was reading these stories, and when they're told by Western researchers, they're often told in the past tense, which it doesn't work for – it doesn't work that way with aboriginal stories. So, the problem is when these stories are told by Western researchers, it's in the past tense, which doesn't work because aboriginal stories are basically told in an every one situation.
AM: Whoa.
JS: So, basically, the concept is, in a – I’ll get into it a little bit more. But, in this concept of dream time or the dreaming, everyone represents the concept of a time out of time.
AM: I see. So, it's like before, and during, and in the past and, and in the future and,] you know, all that stuff all together.
JS: Yes. So, in the dream time, an individual's entire ancestry exists as one. And it culminates in the idea that all worldly knowledge is accumulated through one's ancestors.
AM: Whoa.
JS: That's kind of cool, right?
AM: And it's like – is like a shared body of knowledge that, that like you and then the future lineage accesses --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- you know, like at the same time, and always, and never, and, you know, all that kind of stuff.
JS: Yes. And it’s shared through the oral tradition too.
AM: Whoa.
JS: So, this kind of tradition of the worldly knowledge all being shared, it allows the people to see patterns and cycles of life. So, they can see like the cyclical nature of nature itself, because they have this shared knowledge that passes on from decade to decade and generation to generation
AM: Yeah. Like inherited knowledge and actually listening to and learning from people who came before you, but that's, that's amazing. Like I love that, that makes the idea of heritage and history a living document instead of just like, “Oh, my, you know, great grandmother did this in her life,” and blah, and that's done. But like her like lived experience and her lessons and like, you know, ad infinitum through the past family history tree, like that can all be living and relevant now.
JS: Right. And it's really cool because the cyclical nature of the dream time also becomes really important when you're telling the story of the Rainbow Serpent and what the Rainbow Serpent represents.
AM: Let's get into it.
JS: Okay. But, basically, I just – I kind of went into the concept of the dream time because, as we go through the story, I'm going to try my best to keep that in mind and try to encourage our listeners to keep that in mind. That these stories both take place in the past, take place in the present, and take place in the future.
AM: Love it.
JS: So, the Rainbow Serpent helped create the land. So, before the snake emerged, the Earth was barren and featureless. The serpent came from beneath the ground. And, when it pushed upwards, it created the ridges and mountains and gorges.
AM: Hmmm.
JS: The Rainbow Serpent was known to be huge, though, of course, it depends on how large from story to story. You know, it could create the entire continent. It could be – you know, it could fit in just a plain water hole. It depends on what story and the need of the like, height and width of the serpent. You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah. And I bet the features too of the area from which the, the folks are telling it – like, if it's from a super late craggy mountainous area versus a sort of flat plane where the like undulations of the land are smaller, I bet that, that, you know, maybe has an impact on, on their size and version of Rainbow Serpent.
JS: Oh, for sure.
AM: And you know what that sounds like? It sounds like a glacier, which actually did shape shed --
JS: That actually --
AM: -- which I love.
JS: -- is kind of great. I love that.
AM: Do you remember in eighth grade Earth Science? I don't know if your teacher said this. He – this teacher said like Long Island, where we are from, like exhibits like eight out of the 10 major features of like glacial – I don't know – like, like passage or --
JS: Formation.
AM: -- impact.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Exactly. Like there's, you know, certain marshes and certain crags and certain like whatever. And I remembered that was like the most earth shattering, interesting thing I had ever read. It was like science and my actual world connected for the first time, because I was like, “Oh shit,” like, like I put together that a glacier thousands of thousands of thousands of years ago had like carved out the place where my house was. And it was incredible.
JS: That is really cool.
AM: Anyway, glacial landscaping. Get into it.
JS: Or, giant serpent landscaping depending on what you believe in.
AM: Whatever it is, a giant – a gigantic forest like carving, carving features out of flatness like that’s real.
JS: It's cool as hell no matter what it is.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, the Rainbow Serpent is known to inhabit deep permanent water holes, which is why it's connected to controlling one of the most precious resources in the culture, water.
AM: Duh!
JS: Obviously. Since water is the source of all life, the Rainbow Serpent is also associated with being the creator of everything for some of the cultures. Again, this is one of those things where it depends on which culture we're talking about.
AM: Everything meaning like plants, animals, life. Yeah.
JS: Yes, because everything comes from water.
AM: Which it does.
JS: Yes. So, the link between the snake and the rainbow suggests the cycle of the seasons. Meaning like the rain – the rainy seasons bringing and refilling the water --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- versus the dry season. So, it's the importance of the snake kind of coming and going cyclical. Kind of like what we talked about with Beaivi, you know.
AM: Exactly. And you brought up time earlier. Like, even though time is sort of a malleable construct or there exists like a realm outside of time that, that dream time represents, it, it makes total sense that like the, the thing by which we count time, which is the passage of the seasons, like that, that is how we make our year calendar, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And then like are the biggest kind of clock that we can count by. Like the Rainbow Serpent, if it's associated with water, like that is it. Seasons are nothing but like the description of the way that the water in the Earth interact at a given --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- moment in time, you know. Like it, it makes sense that those are – that those are together.
JS: Right. And it kind of highlights how important the Rainbow Serpent is to certain cultures because, if they don't have this water and the water doesn't come for a season or whatever – if the cycle is broken, their lives are over basically.
AM: Is there any like contemporary discussion of rainbow serpent and climate change?
JS: Oh, buddy, we're gonna talk about – that’s – that was – you guessed the theme of the episode already.
AM: Oh, I’m so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
JS: It’s okay. It's okay.
AM: I spoiled it.
JS: No, it's okay.
AM: But, Julia --
JS: I love it when you do.
AM: But, but time is a flat circle. So, like I haven't discovered it already. And we've already talked about it. So --
JS: When the rainbow is seen in the sky, it is said to be the Rainbow Serpent moving from one waterhole to the other.
AM: Whoa.
JS: And the divine – and this is a divine concept that explains why the waterholes never dry up even when drought strikes.
AM: I love that.
JS: It's kind of a gorgeous like imagery, right?
AM: Yeah.
JS: I love that a lot. I – just the rainbow being the serpent moving across the sky to somewhere else that needs more water.
AM: I love that. And, and also this idea of the waterhole as something eternal and sort of unmoved by like the machinations of the day to day. You know what I mean? That like, underneath the Earth, there is something like a primordial and, and like a heart to it and a gut to the world that are kind of, you know, messing around day to day. Can't, can't mess with.
JS: Yeah. So, let us take a quick like sidebar and talk about the Rainbow Serpent’s form.
AM: Sure.
JS: Because a Rainbow Serpent’s form actually, despite, you know, the very vivid imagery that the name suggests, changes from culture to culture. Even their gender varies from group to group. So, some see it as male. Some see it as female. Some consider it gender ambiguous or intersex, you know, portraying both sexual --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- organs. Some Western commentators, which like suggests that the --
AM: We need – we need like an air horn or sound effects for like problematic western perspective.
JS: Hoooo!
AM: But that doesn’t matter.
JS: Prrrrttt. Suggests that the Rainbow Serpent is a phallic symbol. But, in many representations, the serpent is depicted with breasts. So, I'm not sure about that. That seems a little bit contradictory.
AM: Yeah. Also, like not all – not all objects that are not spheres are phallic symbols, y'all.
JS: But, anyway, so, the fun part too is that the Rainbow Serpent isn't always a serpent.
AM: Nice.
JS: The Rainbow Serpent can sometimes be associated with a bird, a crocodile, a dingo, a lizard.
AM: All, you know, animals that make total sense.
JS: Yeah. But, basically, the commonality between these forms is that they're all associated with water in the aboriginal Australian culture. So --
AM: And all partake of water.
JS: Yes, obviously.
AM: And probably are found around watering holes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, that, that makes sense.
JS: So, the Rainbow Serpent is also associated with the bunyip, which I'm gonna test your Harry Potter knowledge. What do you know about bunyips, Amanda?
AM: Oh shit. I know the word. Nope.
JS: Okay. So, bunyips are basically watered-hole dwelling evil spirits that are feared by the aboriginal Australians.
AM: I did not remember that.
JS: They, they kind of represent – they're always weirdly shaped. And they're kind of hippoey, but more gangly is a great way to describe it.
AM: I don't like that at all.
JS: It's one of the animals that Remus Lupin has like in a cage teaching the students about during his Harry Potter.
AM: Remus Lupin.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Can we just pause to recognize that he was the best teacher of all time at Hogwarts?
JS: That is true.
AM: Hot take, hot take. He had like appropriately-leveled challenges for his student’s like ability. He had hands-on learning opportunities.
JS: He did.
AM: He was super conscientious. And like, when, when Harry had the potential to like summon Voldemort as his boggart, Remus was like, “Let's just wait a second,” and like couldn’t let that happen.
JS: Hold on. One moment please.
AM: And he just like took an interest in his students. He was totally appropriate and like didn’t frickin pry into their lives. He --
JS: He, he let people come to him instead of prying into this bullshit.
AM: Right. He was like open if people needed some frickin’ consolation and, and confidant. But – oh, Remus, I just want you to be happy.
JS: Well, he's not, because he's dead now.
AM: Fuck you, Julia. I know that.
JS: Oh, wait. Spoiler alert to Michael Schubert. Sorry. My bad
AM: About to text him in one sec. Like one sec.
JS: Well, I will. And then I’ll just at blah, blah, blah time, please don't listen to it.
AM: Please do it. Just do it.
JS: So, that is about the form of the Rainbow Serpent. But, first things first, Amanda, I need a refill.
AM: Oh, right. Yes, let's go and refill our Garden Snakes.
Midroll Music
AM: So, this week, we would love to thank Audible for returning as a sponsor. I'm really pumped about this.
JS: Audible rocks.
AM: And they, they also were just super like sweet and just reached back out to us. And like it's just – it's been super pleasant to work with them. But, more to the point listeners, they have tens of thousands of audiobooks. So many that you can enjoy. And also really detailed customer reviews, which I super appreciate. So, you not only, you know, choose the book based on what the book is, but, if you care about the narrator, about the cast, about the kind of production behind the, the audio, you know, people talk about that so you can kind of like make an informed choice.
JS: Oh, yeah, because the person reading the audiobook can make or break the performance and the enjoyment of the book.
AM: And there are so many good ones in Audible. We love listening to audiobooks when we're driving to the beach. And, recently, I actually listened to a super creepy and cool book that I know Spiriters are gonna love. So, it's Borne, B - O - R - N - E, by Jeff VanderMeer. Now, I think I've talked in the past about how Annihilation is one of my like favorite books ever.
JS: It's a very good book.
AM: It's a very good book by Jeff. But, now, you know, I don't really love creep for creep’s sake. Like I don't – you know, I don't like being scared necessarily. But Jeff's stories are so immersive and his writing is so full of detail and character while not being like overly creepy or overly literary. Like he strikes this amazing balance, where he tells like human stories in a beautiful way that also happen to be like creepy AF, which is my favorite kind of like speculative fiction or sci-fi. So, the audiobook is really great. It very much feels like a kind of oral story. So, it makes a lot of sense for it to be listened to in audiobook form.
JS: Nice.
AM: So, I really, really recommend it, Borne by Jeff VanderMeer.
JS: And I would like to suggest to our listeners, The Natural History of Dragons by Marie Brennan.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I got the recommendation from one of the Our Fair City boys.
AM: Great audio drama if you haven’t listened to it already.
JS: I mean obviously. But, oh, my god, it's so good. Basically, the concept is a Victorian alternate universe where dragons exist.
AM: Uhmmm.
JS: And this is the memoirs of a woman who would later become a dragon studier --
AM: Yeah, like scientist.
JS: -- someone who study dragons.
AM: Specialist.
JS: But this is her first expedition after getting married to go meet dragons for the first time. It's very interesting and very well written. And I love it so much.
AM: It's like, it's like Charlie Weasley the summer after graduating Hogwarts.
JS: Yes, but a lady.
AM: A lady. A Victorian woman.
JS: A Victorian woman.
AM: So, good.
JS: Oh, god. It is excellent. And I highly recommend it, because I think our listeners would love a good dragon story.
AM: And you can try either one of these books or like whatever other one you want by heading over to audible.com/spirits. You will get a free 30-day trial and a free book. That is an awesome deal.
JS: And it's a great deal.
AM: If you're anything like us, you're doing a lot of travel this summer. And audiobooks are an awesome way to pass that travel time, driving time, train time, whatever you're doing.
JS: Or just your daily commute too.
AM: Exactly. Your, your daily journey. And we are so grateful to Audible for sponsoring us again. So, go show them some love. Help us out as well by signing up for that free trial at audible.com/spirits.
JS: Do it.
AM: All right. Let's get back to the show.
JS: Yep. So, Amanda, you're probably wondering why the Rainbow Serpent is so important.
AM: I mean creating the world and controlling waters sounds pretty important.
JS: I mean yes.
AM: But tell me more.
JS: But – so, we're talking about a cross section of cultures that lives in a fairly dry and arid environment.
AM: Yeah. Lots of us – at first, I was like, “Surely Australia can’t all be a desert,” you know, based on my just like preliminary understanding of the world.
JS: Yeah. I don't want to stereotype or anything.
AM: But like a lot of Australia is a desert.
JS: Exactly. But – and that's why this kind of creature is so important because the environment becomes super important in the explanation as to why myths exist.
AM: Yeah. It’s such a defining feature.
JS: Right. Like you'll get water myths around places with very large rivers or by the ocean or something like that. Myth is --
AM: For Beaivi in the Arctic Circle --
JS: Exactly.
AM: -- where there's no sun --
JS: Exactly.
AM: -- for a lot of the year.
JS: Myth is so defined by weather and environment so often. So, this is a --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- really great example of that. And I feel like we don't talk about that enough.
AM: Yeah, about the like, you know, IRL origins and influences of myth.
JS: Yeah, exactly.
AM: And like whether you wanna talk about that as like a secular anthropological like influence over why a certain story arises or you wanna talk about it as like that's what the spirits need to contend with. You know what I mean? Like, like whatever your kind of view on a particular myth, there is a way to reconcile the circumstances around its origins.
JS: For sure. So, the serpent will move across the land. His travels can be sporadic at times, which is understandable because the seasons aren't always exact.
AM: That makes a lot of sense. I like that a lot. Like the serpent just took a detour. Oh, she's just early today.
JS: Yeah. So, as it moves, it replenishes the stores of water. It forms gullies and deep channels as it slithers through the landscape, which is a great imagery. I love that so much.
AM: So good.
JS: Without the snake, the Australian Aboriginals believe that no rain would fall and that the Earth would dry up.
AM: Wow.
JS: Which is, you know --
AM: Sounds pathetic.
JS: Your – we already talked about our lens, but we'll, we'll continue on.
AM: All right.
JS: So, along with the eponymous rainbow, the Rainbow Serpent is also associated with the ring around the moon on nights before it would rain.
AM: Yeah.
JS: You know – you know what I'm talking about?
AM: Yeah. The like glow. The haze. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a halo.
JS: It's a very witchy thing too.
AM: It is super witchy.
JS: Yeah. If you see a ring around, it means that evil is coming or something like that. Anyway.
AM: Also, we know lots of sailors and, you know, we spend lots of time on boats in the summer.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, so, the, you know --
JS: The red sky at night, sailor’s delight kind of thing.
AM: Exactly.
JS: So, it was said thunder and lightning were to stem from the Rainbow Serpent when it was angry. And it could cause powerful rainstorms and cyclones --
AM: Yo.
JS: -- which is kind of crazy.
AM: What would it get angry at?
JS: Just – you know, It's, it's a snake. It's, it's still an animal. It's not a super peaceful thing.
AM: Right.
JS: And I'll tell you a story later about an angry Rainbow Serpent story.
AM: I'm excited and nervous.
JS: You should be. So, in order to invoke the Rainbow Snake, items most closely associated with it are quartz crystals and seashells.
AM: Both of those, very witchy.
JS: Yes.
AM: I like them a lot.
JS: I'm super liking the witchy like vibes that are coming off the Rainbow Snake. I’m into it.
AM: I know. Though like I wouldn't have guessed quartz crystal, but especially like we are from the beach. And, you know, shells are like important and otherworldly --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- and primordial.
JS: Well, I'll explain why the quartz, because quartz, in particular, has a prism-like appearance, which --
AM: Oooh.
JS: -- if you shine light through a prism, it creates a rainbow.
AM: Mother of god.
JS: I know. Isn’t that good?
AM: So good.
JS: Oh, god, they just think of everything. Since you asked, I will tell you a Rainbow Serpent story.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, this is a story of the Wagalak Sisters. This story tells about how the sisters were traveling together when the older sister gave birth.
AM: Okay.
JS: During the birth, her blood flows into the water hole where the Rainbow Snake is living.
AM: Like it does.
JS: In another version, this is the sisters are traveling with their mother, and the serpent is merely angered by their presence in its territory.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, it's kind of a territorial kind of thing.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: So, when they leave the Rainbow Serpent traces the scent back to where the sisters are sleeping in their hut, which in some --
AM: Yikes.
JS: -- in some cases, they’re like, “Oh, it's a – it’s a uterus metaphor.” I'm just like, “Is it though? Like, is a uterus metaphor and it’s penetrating the hut? I don't want to go there.”
AM: Listen, listen, it sounds – it sounds like that's the, the critic’s issue for having certain stuff on the mind.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Not all not – not all nonspherical shapes are phallic.
JS: Yes, as we said.
AM: Not all things that you can enter are uteruses.
JS: They’re not just vaginas.
AM: Hot take.
JS: Hot take, not vaginas.
AM: What if I taught like 40 literary criticism at Hogwarts, they just – they need a literary criticism class. I'm just saying that right now.
JS: And they also need a sex education class, but that's an entirely different story.
AM: They need all kinds of education.
JS: They do.
AM: And, and what if like one – just like one day, when like the third years, learn about like gender roles or about like pronouns. And then they just like – just their minds are blown and they just – like a big part of the – I don't know – stress of like middle and high school is that all this learning is asynchronous talking about time, right? Like people learn about gender and sexuality and feminism and, you know, politics at different times.
JS: Yes.
AM: So, people who learn too early are made fun of. People who learn too late are made fun of. Like it's just hard.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, if that shit was hard to you --
JS: It’s a bell curve kind of situation.
AM: Exactly. And like, if that shit we taught to you on the same day where everyone like – where everyone like, at the end of the day, like goes to the – to their, you know, boyfriends and girlfriends and is like, “Are you enthusiastically consenting?” Like how sweet would that be.
JS: It would be cute.
AM: Awww.
JS: You would do a good job with that.
AM: I would be the, the next gen Remus Lupin.
JS: Yes. What would your badly named J.K. Rowling name be though?
AM: Like Moony Moon Face?
JS: Yes.
AM: Mine would be like, like Bookish Booking Den or something.
JS: Bookish Booking Den. It has to be relevant to the topic that you're teaching too.
AM: So, then mine would be like Queery or McGay or something.
JS: Oh, my god.
AM: Hey. My robes of the rainbow and have like, like a rainbow scarf. Why aren't rainbows bigger at Hogwarts to show inter-house unity?
JS: Do you think that Quirrell might have also taught like Queer Studies because his name was like Quirinus Quirrell or something like that.
AM: Because he had a Q with it?
JS: No. It just kind of sounds like – because I was trying to make your sound more J.K. Rowlingy. So, I was like --
AM: More witchy. Yeah.
JS: -- instead of Querio, I was going, “Quirinus.” I'm like, “That sounds exactly like Quirrell's first name.”
AM: No. I think – I think Quirrell was, was so fully narcissistic that there wasn't even like, like a setting for sexuality --
JS: Fair enough.
AM: -- because his only like interest and attraction was to himself.
JS: Okay. Well, that's more Gilderoy Lockhart, but I feel you.
AM: Oh, fuck. I was thinking about Gilderoy Lockhart.
JS: Yeah. Quirrell is the one that had the dude in the head.
AM: Oh, yes, yes, yes. No, no, no. Poor, poor Quirrell. The last thing I want is for him to also have to deal with being queer, when he has to have the fucking Dark Lord in and on his head.
JS: That would explain a lot about his character though I think.
AM: I mean he was played kind of like effeminate and, and like a subordinate, but, you know, he had a Voldemort in him.
JS: I don't blame him.
AM: So, I don't know. Poor guy.
JS: Yeah.
AM: He didn't deserve what he got.
JS: No. He did – he did better.
AM: And like what a change between Quirrell in Year One and Lockhart in Year Two.
JS: Holy shit.
AM: Do you think maybe that like J.K. was so --
JS: She’s like, “I’m sorry. This was too serious in Book One.”.
AM: No. But was, was Joe just like sublimating exes into the Harry Potter books?
JS: It's 100 percent Scott Pilgrim except Joe put like --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- her exes into terrible teachers.
AM: Oh, my god. Wait. I think we've arrived at a unified theory.
JS: We have. This is it.
AM: What if Year One was like a person that she had dated in the past who was like, you know, not – I don't know – assertive enough and not ambitious enough. And she was really into it. And then she like had some frickin’ good hookups and/or dating and, you know, dated someone who she thought was out of her league. And he ended up being super narcissistic, but funny.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And like it was a funny story in retrospect. That was Lockhart. And then --
JS: But – I'm sorry. But --
AM: -- Book Three --
JS: But was Lockhart like a good – Lockhart was not a good guy.
AM: No, he wasn't. He wasn't
JS: He was --
AM: He was a good story, Julia. He was a good story.
JS: Was he? Because he was kind of evil. He was – he was making people forget about all the good things they had, and then stole them from him.
AM: I mean he was – he's like pedestrian – like in – like I think the IRL inspiration of it was like pedestrian evil.
JS: Okay.
AM: Like pedestrian just like being so --
JS: Right. Right.
AM: -- self centered, but also like compelling.
JS: After the guy who is literally possessed by the Dark Lord --
AM: Yeah.
JS: I guess you needed that pedestrian whatever.
AM: Yeah. And like – and like we've all dated a Lockhart, you know. Like we all have people in the past that were like, “That guy was like filling themselves so hard,” you know. Like I just – I see that as being like someone that she like hooked up with or crushed on or dated. It was just like, “This guy, man,” and just like immortalized him in fiction. And then Book Three, she meets her husband.
JS: Yes.
AM: She meets her adorable husband, whose name I think is Neil.
JS: Okay.
AM: And --
JS: And Neil was Remus.
AM: Exactly. And was just like dependable and lovely. And she, you know, again, like got inspired. And Remus character is his own character, but like he like marries a younger woman later in life. And like they – I don't know.
JS: And then the rest of them were just plot points.
AM: Exactly. Exactly. The fourth one was in a trunk.
JS: Yeah. He just wasn't there. He was also evil.
AM: At that point – at that point, my theory falls apart admittedly.
JS: Yes. If we get to Book Three, we're good. We should check that timeline. Anyway, Rainbow Serpent.
AM: Rainbow Serpent.
JS: Sure.
AM: Moony McMoneson, the serpent makes serpent son.
JS: The Rainbow Serpent follows the sisters back to their hut.
AM: Oh, no. I'm kind of giggly.
JS: He enters the hut and then eats them all and their children.
AM: Okay.
JS: Did that kill your giggles?
AM: That really sobered me up. Thank you Julia.
JS: I know. There you go.
AM: Thank you so much.
JS: But the Rainbow Serpent later regurgitates them after being bitten by an ant.
AM: Whoa. Okay. There's so much happening.
JS: And then the serpent is able to speak with their voices after he vomits them up. So, he's able to teach them in their own language and their descendants --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- how to like tap into sacred rituals and how to respect the Rainbow Serpent.
AM: And they came back okay?
JS: Yeah, they were fine.
AM: It's like a better version of The Little Red Riding Hood myth.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or, I mean better, but different wherein they, they did nothing wrong.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like she just like provided new life into the world. Sorry. And, and like it's swallowed and regurged by the Rainbow Snake.
JS: Right. So, this kind of leads to the oral tradition. So, the idea that the Rainbow Serpent could speak their language and, therefore, teach them its ways.
AM: But like, like I love nothing more than discussions of language as like a living and organic thing.
JS: Yes.
AM: And it is so – that idea is so cool to me that just like contact with and ingesting a person, like leads to you keeping their like key of communication to the outside world.
JS: I do love that a lot. So, because we have this oral tradition that's passed down from generation to generation, I just want to talk about a little bit how it's worshiped.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, the Rainbow Serpent is worshipped through rituals and cultural artifacts, which include just artwork, song, et cetera . There's not really a written record so much, but --
AM: Sure.
JS: The earliest known rock drawings of the Rainbow Serpent date back to more than 6,000 years ago.
AM: Yo.
JS: And they are associated with being a healer and can pass its properties as a healer to humans through ritual.
AM: The folks who worship and draw Rainbow Serpent?
JS: Yes.
AM: Whoa.
JS: I'm going to do like a little bit of a like warning. So, like, if blood and menstruation are not your jam, I would skip maybe five or so minutes. We'll put in like the show notes like where you can skip this.
AM: Will put the timestamps.
JS: But I'm gonna start the segment off with let's talk about blood.
AM: Whoo.
JS: So, the Rainbow Serpent is associated with human blood.
AM: Okay.
JS: Especially circulation and the menstrual cycle.
AM: Which like the lifeblood. Thank you, rainbow serpent.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes, that's correct.
JS: So, female menstruation for the indigenous Australian cultures is considered sacred.
AM: As it should be.
JS: Because it distinguishes the time in which a female is capable of bringing life into the world. Putting her on the same level of creative abilities as the Rainbow Serpent.
AM: Yo.
JS: Isn't that fucking beautiful?
AM: That is pretty beautiful.
JS: I love that so much. Because – so, you know, my main study was Abrahamic religions --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- which basically focused on you shouldn't touch a woman when she's on her period, because she's dirty during that time.
AM: Right. Seen as, as like blemish on what is otherwise normal.
JS: Right.
AM: Whereas, instead of it being like, “Oh, okay. Like I'm sorry. Like this is the Super Mario star bonus time of your biology, where you can like – you can produce life like a god.”
JS: I know. It's, it's beautiful.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I love it so much. So, interestingly, men will actually try and mimic this whole process by cutting their arms or penises. I'm so sorry. And letting their blood run over their own bodies, each other's bodies, and then sometimes over a woman's uterus, which I don't recommend. But then, again, you know --
AM: I mean --
JS: -- this is a cultural thing. I'm not going to --
AM: Practice safe ritual cutting.
JS: Yes.
AM: Is it – is it a thing that you do periodically? Like, like --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- what is the use of this practice?
JS: It's – the use of it is basically to also channel that creative ability into the closer --
AM: As like a divine bonding --
JS: Yes, exactly.
AM: -- type thing.
JS: Speaking of which, men will also mix their blood with a woman's menstrual blood so letting them flow together in a ceremonial unification of the sexes.
AM: I sort of dig that.
JS: Because, as we talked about in a lot of the cultures, the Rainbow Snake is intersex.
AM: Yeah. Or, or agender?
JS: Yes.
AM: Whoa. I wonder how, how trans indigenous Australians feel about that, you know?
JS: That's a really interesting question.
AM: Because it, it – like, you know, I get a little bit uncomfortable with sort of like gender essentialism.
JS: Yes.
AM: Like, you know, all women, this woman, that – like, et cetera, you know --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- your biologies differ. But I – I don't know. Like I bet there's super smart people thinking and writing about that kind of thing.
JS: It's definitely not something I researched, but I would love to hear people's opinions on that.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Because I feel like that would be a really, really interesting topic to talk about.
AM: Exactly. That's your area of study. Like – and I mean especially because there is no assigned gender for the rainbow snake. It sounds like there – like there is a way for everybody in every biology to relate to, you know, them --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- in a – in that way.
JS: Everyone can make that connection with the rainbow snake.
AM: Which I love. Yeah, exactly. Because you're just saying like, like there's a way for people who don't menstruate to, you know, channel that divine relationship as well. So, actually, now my thinking is coming around now. Like that, that – you know, I dig that a lot.
JS: Yeah. It's, it's really beautiful actually. So, I kind of want to just wrap things up, where I want to discuss just the rainbow serpent as a creator, who, one, is associated with women and fertility and the cyclical nature. And it's one of the few cultures where menstruation isn’t shamed. And then, secondly, I want to talk a little bit about a being that is a reviver of natural resources. I think it's especially fascinating because we're talking about an arid land, where we have a being that brings back life by bringing water. And I'm curious as to how these stories are going to change and become potentially apocalyptic, which, you know, is my favorite thing --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- with climate change. And this life giving water is going to become more and more scarce.
AM: What's interesting is that we haven't discussed a destruction element of this narrative.
JS: Right.
AM: Like the whole kind of point of apocalypticism and rapture, you know --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- in the sort of Christian tradition as well is, is the sort of wiping clean of the slate and either transporting people to a different realm, where you can reset, or destruction as like a reset button for a world that has been – become like, you know, irrevocably --
JS: Damaged.
AM: -- damaged and like contaminated. But it sounds so far like, like rainbow serpent is kind of constantly remaking.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, you know, the sort of image as a rainbow being almost like a comet's tail --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- you know, of like marking, you know, movement from one area to another with this like eternal well of life and goodness at the center of things.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That's a really optimistic reading, but, at the same time, also really dire because like you can measure. You know, we can measure how Earth is becoming warmer. And, you know, fresh water is disappearing and like all these kinds of things. And, and tying those natural resources so directly to like life and divinity I think is the only appropriate like measure --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- of how important this issue actually is.
JS: No. I think that's spot on. And I think that it's going to be really interesting to see how that changes in the future and --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- how this sort of storyline is affected. Because, when a cycle begins to break and when a cycle begins to change, that irrevocably changes the story.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And it's going to change a lot of just the way that the being is viewed and how the culture has to adapt. And I'm very – I mean it's a horrible situation to be put in, but I'm very intrigued as to how it's going to adapt.
AM: Yeah. And like how – especially returning to that concept of dream time, you know what lessons that sort of ancestral not body of knowledge like does and does not have to offer, right? Like is there precedent? Because we know like, geologically in the world, there have been, you know, ice ages and warm periods. And, you know, like this kind of cyclical nature of climate is a thing. But we also know that what's happening currently is a radical departure, you know, unprecedented in that record.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, like what does kind of dream time and what does like inherited knowledge have to say about that?
JS: I'm super intrigued too. Because, not that I want to tie in a non-Western religion --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- with Western religion. But I'm vaguely reminded of the Norse.
AM: Yeah.
JS: The Norse who understand, you know, that their entire life is a cycle. And they know how it begins, and how it ends.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And that it will restart after it ends. And I'm curious to see if this is a situation where this is a cycle that is going to end. And that the cycle will have to restart with new, new characters, new gods, new spirits, that sort of thing. And I'm intrigued by that.
AM: And we haven't mentioned yet, but the idea of the Ouroboros.
JS: Yes.
AM: Which actually don't know the mythological origin of. I just know it as a symbol, which is a snake eating its own tail. Like it's a --
JS: Yes.
AM: You know, it's a circle. And the head of the snake like the mouth is open and the tail is going in. And just that – I don't know – that message or that image comes to mind so often for me in life --
JS: Right.
AM: -- because everything is cyclical. Every end is – you know, like every end is the beginning. The idea of reincarnation is so central to human experience across geographies.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, I don't know. But like that's the – that's the kind of point of climate change. It’s like there is no reset button --
AM: Yes.
AM: -- for Earth, and there's no undo, and there's no – you know, no planned like rebirth of the natural resources that we are getting rid of. And, so, I don't know. That, that is – that makes it so different, right? And like it feels like, every time we try to apply precedent or narrative to what's occurring, it's so hard because there is – like it's, it's – I don't know. It's grand, and it's absolute. And the consequences are so high in a way that like our narratives don't account for.
JS: Yeah. This reminds me of a comic that I saw someone write. But, basically, the point of the comic was the ;Earth is not gonna die from global warming. Humans are gonna die.
AM: Right.
JS: And our time will be up. But the Earth will find a way to keep going. And life will keep going even if we as a species and like other mammals and whatnot can't keep surviving it.
AM: Right. The fucking badass like proteobacteria.
JS: Exactly.
AM: Like, you know, terraforming lava into soil.
JS: Life will keep going even if humans don't. And I'm, I'm a little sad about that idea, obviously, because then we lose the mythology and the cycle ends for humans.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So ,our stories end, but the Earth doesn't end, which is a little bit – a little bit hopeful. I mean not for us, but just, in general, it’s a little hopeful.
AM: We've reached the apex of talking about death while drinking Julia, where we talked about the heat death of the universe.
JS: There we are. We’re good. We're good. I think – I think that's a good place to end it then.
AM: I think so too.
JS: Okay. Good.
AM: And like every death narrative has a resurrection narrative. Like every ambiguous death and Harry Potter has a headcanon, where that person didn't die. Sirius Black. Like – I don't know. There's, there's ways --
JS: Oh, wait. Sorry. Mike Schubert, that was a spoiler alert.
AM: Mike Schubert, I'm so sorry. Guys, if you don't listen to Potterless, which is a dope podcast where a 25-year-old man reads Harry Potter for the first time. And we are essentially co-hosts because we're --
JS: Basically.
AM: -- on so often. It's, it's really, really good. But,anyway, I forgot what my point was. I'm just trying to be optimistic here --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- when faced with the, the death of the planet.
JS: That's good. No. We did a good job.
AM: Not death, but it will change.
JS: Yes.
AM: Because – I don't know – every like transition in life is, you know, past you dying and current you – you know, sorry.
JS: I feel we're gonna get a lot of comments on Twitter. It’d be like, “Well, that ended – that ended quite dark.
AM: Okay. So, what can we think of that isn't dark? Like fucking celebrating menstruation.
JS: Yes.
AM: Thank you.
JS: Cool.
AM: Slash, all people in the world – like this is from whence you came.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It is the primordial lifeblood. It is the spring from which human beings emerge.
JS: As people who menstruate, we appreciate this.
AM: We super do appreciate this.
JS: Yes.
AM: And like I'm – I'm all for like the normalization of bodies. Like bodies, we produce – you know, like bodies produce stuff.
JS: Yes.
AM: Like I'm sorry.
JS: That's true.
AM: I don't know. Growing up in like puritanical sanitized Americans, it's, you know – I don't know. Acknowledging menstruation is just nice to talk about it.
JS: It is bud.
AM: Man, what, what other controversial topics can we discuss in this episode?
JS: I don't think we – I think we hit our limit.
AM: We – even we have hit our limits.
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay. So, like you know biology doesn't determine gender.
JS: Yes. Cool.
AM: Okay. Time is a construct.
JS: Climate change exists.
AM: Climate change exists a lot. Menstruation is super normal.
JS: Yes.
AM: And like, you know, don't be scared.
JS: Your body is fine.
AM: Your body is fine. Your partner can be involved in that part like it's not like a shameful thing.
JS: Yeah. Snakes can be whatever gender they want.
AM: Snakes can be whatever gender they want. Remus Lupin is the best teacher in Harry Potter.
JS: That is true.
AM: Get on me at Spirits Podcast.
JS: Okay. Okay. I think we're good there. So, stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music:
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
JS: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil