Episode 351: Ragnarok
/This is the end - or is it the beginning? - of It’s Norse, Of Course. We break down the events of Ragnarok, the fall of the realms, rivers of drool, and the worst nap ever! It’s a cycle, gang!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of violence, animal attacks, death, and apocalypse.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends audiobooks from your local library!
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editors: Brandon Grugle
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And we've arrived, finally, or perhaps again, at Ragnarok.
JULIA: Ah, yes. So, as we've been mentioning, in many of our It's Norse, Of Course episodes, we are going to be talking about Ragnarok. And we've mentioned bits and pieces from the different points of view of different gods and figures. But today, we're going to do a little more of like a linear retelling, so we can really dig into the nitty-gritty of it all.
AMANDA: Julia, I have a cup of tea, I have a blanket over my lap like a Victorian grandma—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —and I'm ready.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, you would need a— a blanket and a hot cup of tea based on how kind of Ragnarok gets started, but we'll get there when we get there, right?
AMANDA: Sure. Sure, sure. Yeah.
JULIA: But you picked the right vibes, despite it being August from when we're recording this. So when talking about Ragnarok, keep in mind, we're still pulling from our two main literary sources, so the Poetic and the Prose Eddas.
AMANDA: And, Julia, I'm glad you bring this up, because I've been meaning to ask you for a while. Do you think the Prose Edda feels inferior? Because, one, it's poetry, and one is prose. And if you describe someone as poetic, it's like, "Oh, my God, they use language so beautifully. They make pictures with their words, then you describe it as prosaic." No, no, no, that's basic. That's every day. That's not even worth remarking on. Do you think he's jealous?
JULIA: Maybe a little bit. And now that you've said prosaic out loud, a word that I feel like I've probably only ever read.
AMANDA: Sure, sure.
JULIA: It does sound like some sort of medicine that I take for my anxiety.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or perhaps a UTI, which, you know, affects us all. Take Prozac twice a day, you'll be good at no time.
JULIA: I mean, I wanted to give prosaic a little bit more love than UTI medicine, but—
AMANDA: No, no. It sounds like a— like an anxiety or depression drug where they show people, like, picking a flower.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. As the world crumbles around them.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Yes, exactly. So it would be good for what we're talking about today, certainly.
AMANDA: Alright. Just something's been on my mind. Thank you for allowing me to air this agreement.
JULIA: I mean, we all know that you are a poetry bitch—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —so obviously, you're going to lean more heavily into the Poetic Eddas. But, Amanda, luckily, I did, for a lot of this episode, take some of the segments from the Poetic Edda—
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: —for us to kind of look at and highlight as we talk about the events of Ragnarok. So as always, you've read my mind, you've seen the future like Odin has.
AMANDA: Flips hair, flips hair. And I haven't even been chained to a tree.
JULIA: Not even chained to a tree, amazing.
AMANDA: Nope.
JULIA: So also worth noting, because we're talking about the Poetic and the Prose Eddas. In the Prose and Poetic Eddas, the descriptions of Ragnarok are told in future tense. So they are a foretelling of an event that has not yet happened. So this is a bit different from our usual episodes in terms of tense. When we tell these stories on the show, usually we talk about them in the past, or the present, keeping in mind that a lot of these gods and goddesses are still worshipped in the modern sense, but also were worshipped or were stories that featured them taking place in the past.
AMANDA: Yeah. We tell the story now about a thing that used to happen.
JULIA: Exactly. But with Ragnarok, as we understand it, it has not yet happened. It is something that is coming and the gods are preparing for it.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: So part of the reason that Ragnarok is being told to us in a future sense is because it is part of the Voluspa, which we've talked about in previous episodes. They are stories that are being told to Odin by a Volva or a Seer. And as you might remember, also featured in this Poetic Edda version of the Voluspa, she tells the story of the forming of the world where many of the figures that we're familiar with after this year of Its Norse, Of Course, came from. And this is the poem that we hear about, like, how Odin lost his eye. So, Ragnarok is only part of this poem, but it is a chunky part of the poem, for sure.
AMANDA: Gotcha.
JULIA: Sorry, there was like a bird directly out— like, flapping around outside my window and then flew away. I was like, "What's happening?" Okay.
AMANDA: Is Odin trying to tell you not to talk about it?
JULIA: It wasn't a raven, thankfully, so we're okay.
AMANDA: Good.
JULIA: So in fact, the Volva, the Seer is reluctant to kind of reveal this information about the future to Odin. And in several stanzas, she ends them by asking basically like, "Are you sure you want to know what's next?"
AMANDA: Oh, damn. That's such a good literary device.
JULIA: So for example, I'll give you a little flavor of that, which is, "The giantess old in Ironwood sat, in the east and bore the brood of Fenrir. Among these one in monster's guise was soon to steal the sun from the sky. There feeds he full on the flesh of the dead and the home of the gods he reddens with gore. Dark grows the sun, and in summer soon come mighty storms. Would you know yet more?
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: Is that so fucking cool?
AMANDA: Like, isn't this enough? Like, it's really— it's not good, my guy, are you sure?
JULIA: Like this is all bad. Hey—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —this is like hearing bad news and you're like, "Are you sure you want to hear the bad news first? Like—"
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "—Alright."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "If you're sure."
AMANDA: And customarily, it's not like ritually significant, but it is accustomed. When I converted to Judaism, the Rabbi asked me three times like, "Are you sure?"
JULIA: Are you sure?
AMANDA: "It's not always good. People hate us. Are you really sure?" And you have to answer three times, "Yes, I do."
JULIA: Amanda, I gotta be honest with you. The first time I heard that, and this was pre your conversion, was on Sex in the City.
AMANDA: Oh, nice. Yeah.
JULIA: Yep.
AMANDA: Word.
JULIA: And she was like, "He was so mean to me. He just told me to go away." And the guy's like, "No, you gotta ask three times. Like, just go back and keep asking." She's like, "Oh, okay."
AMANDA: I mean, mine was, like, over a Zoom call, and they didn't, like, end the call, but I—
JULIA: Right.
AMANDA: —I mean, it would have been funny if they did.
JULIA: It would have been pretty funny. Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So as we're talking about this Poetic Edda version of Ragnarok, Ragnarok technically begins with the death of Baldur, which is the story we probably talked about the most in the series.
AMANDA: You were right. You said, "This is going to be very important." And I was like, "Sure, sure, sure." A guy whose name I haven't heard, but it really was.
JULIA: It really was. So what we need to know about Ragnarok is that these revelations about Ragnarok, what the seer is telling Odin happens pretty early on in the chronology of Norse Mythology. Basically, Ragnarok is what the gods know is coming from pretty early on. Most of the stories that we told during our It's Norse, Of Course, other than, like, the stories of like Ymir and Odin, like, creating the cosmos and stuff like that.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: That is all happening post this story and what the seer is revealing to Odin. Because a lot of these stories are about, like, Odin preparing for Ragnarok. That's why Valhalla exists, like because he is taking in the dead, the glorious dead to one day be able to fight in the Battle of Ragnarok.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So we know that Baldur's death leads to the punishment of Loki, we've established that in our previous episodes. But there are other conditions that need to be met before Ragnarok can commence. And one that we haven't really spoken about yet is the serpent known as Nidhogg, who is basically a giant serpent or dragon that lives in the Roots of Yggdrasil. Or in some cases is trapped in the roots of Yggdrasil.
AMANDA: Oh, big difference.
JULIA: Now before Ragnarok, Nidhogg will gnaw through the root of the World Tree and this will help set off a chain of events that will lead to Loki being freed. And then, like, all of the enemies of the gods will descend upon the realm to battle. And I'm going to be reading, like I said, bits of the Poetic Edda that reference what I'm referring to just so you can kind of hear the warning that Odin got from the seer in the same way that he heard it.
AMANDA: Oh, bless.
JULIA: So like for example, in reference to Nidhogg, "A hall I saw far from the sun, on Nastrond it stands, and its doors face North. Venom drops through the smoke vent down for around the walls do serpents wind." And this is kind of like a reference to Hel's domain, and it also seems to kind of pay homage to the poison that is dripping down onto Loki as part of his everlasting torment.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: And then it continues. "I saw there wading through rivers wild, treacherous men and murderers too, the works of ill with the wives of men."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "There Nidhogg sucked the blood of the slain and the wolf tore men. Would you yet know more?" So this is in part we see basically the worst of the criminals in Norse morality, oath breakers and murderers, and then we see them being devoured by Nidhogg who— whose name literally translates to dread biter. He does a lot of biting.
AMANDA: Oh, that's good.
JULIA: And so he is kind of destroying both criminals and the roots of the tree. This is also weird timeline stuff, because Nidhogg is said to do this before Ragnarok and then we'll get into, like, his role after Ragnarok as well. But I just want to kind of, like, tell you a little bit about this dragon that is going to become very relevant in just a little bit.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: But before all that, before we get to actual Ragnarok itself, before Nidhogg tears through one of the roots of the World Tree, Ragnarok begins with the Fimbulvetr or the mighty winter.
AMANDA: Ooh. And for the Norse to say this, I mean, pretty big.
JULIA: Yeah. So like I said, Amanda, when you had your hot tea and your blanket ready, it was because you were already anticipating the Fimbulvetr.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Exactly.
JULIA: So this is both a literal mighty winter, and also a metaphorical one, because why not? It is three successive winters with snows raging from every direction, with no summer in between.
AMANDA: Oh. That's a long time, and not good.
JULIA: Kind of Game of Thrones-sy in a way. Like, I'm sure that George R.R. Martin may be polled for this, like the long winter and stuff like that, to kind of anticipate like, "Oh, yeah, you know, this is something that people should fear and might lead to a apocalyptic-like situation in a fantasy realm."
AMANDA: And C.S. Lewis, where we begin The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.
JULIA: Yes, exactly. With the white witch who has— it's always winter, but never Christmas, which I think—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —is the funniest part of that book, in particular.
AMANDA: Very good.
JULIA: So as you can imagine, three successive terrible winters lead to much strife among the people of Midgard. There is too much sorrow, too much mischief, and the mighty winter weighs down the cosmos, both literally and metaphorically. So these harsh conditions lead to many wars and conflicts between mortal humans, and neighbors turning against neighbors, brothers, against brothers, fathers against sons. And then once the fighting begins, it does not stop until all are consumed by winter, which gets worse and worse.
AMANDA: And you know me, I'm always thinking of, like, the lived realities of these settings, and what it would actually feel like. And I mean, you're trapped in your home, you're going stir-crazy, probably resources are running out. And then, like, of course, it makes total sense that once somebody else kind of breaks a societal norm, and breaks an oath, turns hand against a brother, you know, does whatever. And you're like, "Oh, great. Like F that. I'm not sticking to the— the, you know, pre— this never-ending winter rule. I'm gonna go ahead and do the same thing." It's like a very evocative metaphor, and really I'm picturing people, like, trapped inside, snow whirling out, you can't even tell which way is north, and somebody comes to your doorstep, and rules are not what they once were.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, that's perfect, and it leads into the segue for the bit of the Poetic Edda about these long winters quote—
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: "—Hard it is on Earth with mighty whoredom, axe-time, sword-time, shields are sundered. Wind-time, wolf-time, ere the world falls. Nor ever shall men each other spare."
AMANDA: Hmm. Wow.
JULIA: Yeah. Shout-out to wind-time, wolf time, one of my favorites, just combinations of words.
AMANDA: Yeah, that's incredible.
JULIA: So it is this frozen wasteland which freezes not only Midgard but all of the cosmos. That freezes even the sacred well in the Roots of Yggdrasil, Urdarbrunrr.
AMANDA: Oh, shit.
JULIA: The spring of Destiny also found their ceases to bubble freezing as well.
AMANDA: Hey, Julia, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's probably not good.
JULIA: Probably not good. Amanda, if the water outside of the Roots of Yggdrasil is freezing—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —the Roots of Yggdrasil themselves begin to freeze. And—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —this is what allows the serpent Nidhogg to gnaw through it, bursting forth into the realms.
AMANDA: Yeah. I've always said, Julia, I don't know about you, that, like, the World Tree does remind me of a can of Coke, that you buy at the bodega and it was on the shelf, you really want it, so you do put it in the freezer, and then you do forget about it. So later you go and what you have is a larger-than-a-Coke can-size block of Coke that has burst its limits. And I do imagine that makes it easier for the snake to bite on through that root.
JULIA: You would be right in that, Amanda. He does do that gnawing through. He bursts into the realms. The tree shakes with the violence of the act and does not stop shaking while creatures across the cosmos shake in fear as well as their realms shutter with the force of the World Tree. Quote, "Yggdrasil shakes and shiver on high the ancient limbs and the giant is loose."
AMANDA: Hmm. What a phrase.
JULIA: Yeah, I know, right? So this shaking causes boulders to tumble off mountains, trees are uprooted, and everything much like your can of Coke, Amanda, bursts.
AMANDA: Shit.
JULIA: Including all chains.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: So you can probably see where this is going.
AMANDA: Yeah. I bet Loki loose, and I bet he's got some mischief to make.
JULIA: Well, Amanda, before we see what happens when all of those chains burst and who may or may not have broken loose to cause mischief, how about we go and grab a refill?
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. Let's start off by thanking, of course, our newest patrons, Anna and Patutatu. Thank you so much, you are our lifeblood, you keep this podcast going. And thank you so much for supporting us. And, of course, thank you as always to our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Froody Chick, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. And, of course, our legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And if you would like to join these amazing people in supporting us, you can go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast right now to support us, number one, which we super appreciate. And also get some cool rewards, like recipe cards for every episode, cocktails and mocktails, ad-free episodes, and so much more. Check it out. That's patreon.com/spiritspodcast. 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[theme]
JULIA: Alright. We're back, and don't worry, conspirators, I have one more cocktail for you to use up all that Aquavit that I had you buy already.
AMANDA: Oh, that's so nice of you.
JULIA: And it is called The Ragnarok, so—
AMANDA: Hey.
JULIA: —this cocktail is Aquavit, of course, more Aperol, which I think I also had you purchased previously.
AMANDA: Julia, we all have very full and robust bars after all of this. You've really led us to you know, diversify the spirits we have on hand.
JULIA: I try my best, and I also want to make sure that if I'm recommending you buy a bottle of something, I want you to be able to use it up, so here we go.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: You'll also need a little bit of lemon juice, easy to get on hand, and stick with me here, Jagermeister.
AMANDA: I'm going to tell you, I raised a brow.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: I raised a single eyebrow, because the thing I think I'm most likely to see in someone's grandpa's home bar, a lot of dust on it, Jagermeister.
JULIA: Well, here's the thing, maybe some of you people listening or following along here, maybe you did too many Jager bombs in college and now you don't like the taste of Jager, that's fine. But I am coming back around on Jagermeister.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: I think it's an interesting flavor. I think it's a little bit like herbaceous, it's got a little licorice, or anise flavor to it.
AMANDA: It does.
JULIA: It can be really interesting. My local bar does, like, a play on a Moscow Mule with Jagermeister, and it's really good. Like, it's genuinely good.
AMANDA: And you know what? That anise flavor really reminds me of wintertime, and so for that reason, I think it's a— a very appropriate pick.
JULIA: Yes. And listen, I think that if you give Jager another chance and not just like doing a shot of it into a glass of Red Bull, you might like it again.
AMANDA: You know, it's a wise piece of advice, Julia, because I think many of the things we may have, you know, misspent or not given proper time to in our youth, perhaps worth revisiting, you know?
JULIA: Listen, I came around on Blue Curacao, I'm coming back around on Jagermeister as well. That's my hot take of the day for you.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: Well, speaking of doing a shot of Jager with Red Bull, that feeling is very much the feeling that the cosmos is facing as the worlds begin to shake, and as I mentioned before, everything bursts including every chain. So Fenrir, our big wolf boy—
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JULIA: —famously bit off Tyr's hands.
AMANDA: Bit it right off.
JULIA: He has been bound in chains by the Asgardians for a long time at this point, and so he is going to be freed of his bonds. And as you pointed out, Amanda, he's not the only one, because you'll remember as punishment for his involvement in Baldur's death, Loki had also been bound and imprisoned, and he too is able to slip away by transforming into some sort of beast, it's not clear.
AMANDA: Oh, damn.
JULIA: And then the—
AMANDA: Could be anything, Julia. Could be a horse with eight legs, could be like a caterpillar with just one. Like we— we simply don't know.
JULIA: The verb that they used for the creature that he transforms into and then escapes in a lot of translations is hops away.
AMANDA: Big bunny.
JULIA: Big bunny, is it a frog? Like what other things hop, I guess?
AMANDA: Antelope, I guess?
JULIA: Could be an antelope, could be a little deer, I guess, could be.
AMANDA: Yeah, like a mountain deer.
JULIA: Yeah, could be, could be.
AMANDA: But real big.
JULIA: Real big. So picture your hopping creature of choice, and keep in mind that during all this time, Loki has been fostering this intense hatred for the Aesir, who were the ones that bound him in the first place. And as you can imagine, he is hungry for revenge.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: So as all of this happens, as the bonds break, the winds are shrieking, the waves are roaring, but through the clamor and the chaos of all of this that is happening, three cocks crow out to alert their various factions that Ragnarok has begun.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: In Valhalla, the rooster, Gullinkambi, crows so loud that his gold comb almost shakes off entirely.
AMANDA: Oh, that's very loud.
JULIA: That's very loud. From the woods of the Jotunn, the rooster, Fjalar, will crow, quote, "A screech as red as his feathers."
AMANDA: Oh, damn.
JULIA: And then down in Hel's realm, a third rooster alerts the dead that the time has come. And I— I really love this bit from the Poetic Edda if you'll indulge me. Quote—
AMANDA: Always.
JULIA: "—On a hill, there sat and smote on his harp, Eggther the joyous, the giants' warder. Above him the cock in the bird-wood crowed, fair and red did Fjalar stand. Then to the gods crowed Gullinkambi. He wakes the heroes in Odin's Hall and beneath the Earth does another crow, the rust-red bird at the bars of Hel.
AMANDA: If I had chickens, you know this is what I would name them.
JULIA: You'd have to come up with nicknames for them, because—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, yeah. No—
JULIA: —Gullinkambi would be quite a name to call as you're gathering your roosters up.
AMANDA: Gulli, Gulli.
JULIA: Yeah, that's cute. I like that, I'm into it. So for a little bit of context from that quote there, Eggther is the Jotunn version of Heimdall—
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: —who was basically the watchman for the giants. And so he is the one that hears Fjalar, who I mentioned before is the cock that is crowing that is supposed to wake the giants for the final struggle. And with all of these roosters crowing, they use cock so much of the description, I was just like, "Just call it a rooster. It's the same thing."
AMANDA: Please— please for me, please.
JULIA: For me, please. So with all these roosters crowing, all of the groups involved in Ragnarok know now that the final battle is about to begin.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So as the roosters are crowing, a branch breaks off of Yggdrasil, and this fallen branch will fall upon the head of the world serpent, Jormungandr who is finally like— as he hits, releases his tail from his mouth. As you might recall, he had been circling the world, biting his own tail for millennia since Odin had cast him out into the sea, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So he will leave the sea that Odin cast him into and roll like terror upon the Earth. AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: He will make his way to a field called Vigrid, and he— as he makes his way there, then will be joined by Fenrir who, I love this description, leaves a trail of hungry slobber behind him to match the trail of venom that Jormungandr leaves in his wake.
AMANDA: Awesome. I'm just thinking about how much swiffering I would have to do to clean that up.
JULIA: So much mopping, you know? It would be—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —like a river of slobber.
AMANDA: Not good.
JULIA: And imagine he has to have been slobbering a lot, because they did, like, keep his mouth pried open for a very long time.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So it's just like dripping out.
AMANDA: Yeah, like a lot.
JULIA: Like the biggest Great Dane, or St. Bernard, or whatever, other giant dog that you can come across.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: So now, everyone sees that Jormungandr is heading towards Vigrid, and so they know that this is where the battle is going to take place. So the Jotunn all board a ship that is set to sail for the field. The fire giants led by Surtr with his giant flaming sword march across the Bifrost, which cracks under their boots.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: And Loki, who has freed himself, looks around and knows that he not only wants to take part in this battle that will hopefully destroy all of the Aesir, but he wants to lead his own army into it.
AMANDA: Sure. He's not here simply to, like, get revenge by proxy. He needs to, like, have a hand on the ball.
JULIA: Exactly. So he goes into Hel's realm, gathers all of the dead up, and then puts them on a ship, which is called Naglfar, which is Amanda—
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: —made of the fingernails and toenails of dead men.
AMANDA: Well, I didn't have that on my bingo card for Ragnarok, but—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —here we are.
JULIA: Did you— when you were growing up, did you often find those shells that my family called dead man's fingernails?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Yes? That's what makes me think of that image of this ship. It's just like— it's just a normal ship in my brain, but it's covered in those type of seashells.
AMANDA: Like scales. Like scales of a fish. I mean, that's actually quite beautiful. I was picturing more of, like, literal fingernail, but this is really saving my mental image right now. Thank you.
JULIA: I'm trying to help you as best I can.
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
JULIA: So he boards everyone onto that terrible, terrible ship and they sail off to Vigrid as well.
AMANDA: Great. And to never speak of it again.
JULIA: So as Surtr and the fire giants march on Asgard, Heimdall— Heimdall who hears everything, sees everything, he blows his horn, the Gjallarhorn, and wakes the gods up who, for some inexplicable reason, have been able to sleep through all of the chaos that is happening across the realms. Like they awaken like they just woke up from a power nap that ended up turning into a three-hour nap, just completely disoriented and confused about what is going on.
AMANDA: Have you ever, Julia, been on like a group trip where there's been some amount of, like, tension over who gets to choose what room? In my mind, the person who organizes the trip should have first choice of the room.
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: That's not always the case. And so I've had been in a couple situations where someone's been like, "Oh, how'd you sleep?" And my honest answer would be like, "Less good than you because you took the better room." And that's kind of what I feel like is happening here where the gods are— you know, they have the best sleeping chambers, the most insulation, you know, the most, like, ability to sort of opt out of, like, the clamor of day-to-day life. And then suddenly, they wake up and they're like, "What the hell?"
JULIA: My theory for this as well, I agree with you the person who organizes should pick the room. Second choice should always go to the people who arrived first at, like, the Airbnb or whatever.
AMANDA: Exactly. Yeah, after the organization, then it's first come, first serve.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And if you're saving room for somebody else who's going to roll in at 10 p.m. after we've all done grocery shopping and setting up, you got another thing coming.
JULIA: Yeah, like if you're getting there five hours later than me, like sorry, I'm getting the actual queen-size bed and not two twins pushed together.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I'm sorry.
AMANDA: Sorry.
JULIA: That's my opinion.
AMANDA: Bye.
JULIA: Like, unless I'm traveling alone, then like, yeah, I'll take the smaller bed but like, girl, let's be honest.
AMANDA: Please.
JULIA: So they have awoken from this terrible power nap that they were taking.
AMANDA: Really the worst nap perhaps of all time.
JULIA: Yes, the worst nap of all time. So Odin, of course, is the first to act, he will mount his eight-legged horse Sleipnir, because—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —we have to mention Sleipnir. And he will gallop to the well in the Roots of Yggdrasil to seek advice from Mimir, who you might remember from our Odin episode.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, Mimir reveals to Odin his own sacrificed eye, the eye that Odin sacrificed in order to gain the ability to see the future, basically.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Which looks out and sees all. And in this moment, Odin knows that as battle is how they have always done things, battle is how things will end.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Yeah. And so Odin returns to the Aesir and the Vanir, and gathers them and the fallen warriors have his and Freya's Hall. They put on their armor, and they advance to the field, Vigrid, where all the others have gathered for the battle.
AMANDA: What a beautiful image of, you know, all of these soldiers, the fallen soldiers, everybody, like, gathered up and ready, it's very poetic.
JULIA: It also, to a certain extent, kind of reminds me, if anyone's ever been in like a firehouse before, you know how, like, all those dudes are just chillin' until they get the call? Like, "Oh, there's a fire." And then, like, everyone gets ready and, like, throws on their coats and stuff like that.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But up until that point, everyone was like, "Yeah, like let me have, like, a beer at the bar that is built into this firehouse for some reason."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "Oh, man, you made chili. Y'all take some of that." And then, like, the alarm goes off, and everyone like [panics]
AMANDA: Like jumping into their boots. Oh, totally.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. That's the vibe that I get that Valhalla probably is in this moment.
AMANDA: 100%.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. So the first, upon arriving in the field, to take up arms against each other or in the case of one of them, teeth and claws—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —is Odin and our wolf boy Fenrir. So as soon as the two begin to battle, it opens the floodgates for the rest of the battle to begin. So Odin and Fenrir have paired off, the giant Surtr with his flaming sword pairs off with the God Freyr. But because Freyr had given his best swords in a deal to marry his wife, Gerd, he does not have any weapons other than a deer horn that he carries.
AMANDA: Oh, no. The wife!
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Damn. He was like, "No, that's okay. Like it'll be fine. I get to marry my cool wife, but I just won't have any good swords anymore."
AMANDA: Damn a real Gift of the Magi situation.
JULIA: So, of course, a deer horn is no match for Surtr, and though he does manage to stab Surtr in the eye, but soon after, he cuts down Freyr.
AMANDA: Bummer.
JULIA: Hel's hound whose name is Garm, follows Loki into battle who also attacks Tyr, going for the throat, and the Earth is soaked in both of their blood by the end of the battle. Basically, destroying each other.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: And, of course, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about Thor, because Thor never misses a battle.
AMANDA: Uh-uh.
JULIA: And as was foretold, he faces off against Jormungandr. Now, Thor will even manage to kill Jormungandr with Mjolnir. But when he staggers back away from the battle, he manages to step on the venom of the serpent which kills him.
AMANDA: Fucking brutal. No.
JULIA: Yeah. It's not good for anyone, the situation.
AMANDA: God.
JULIA: So while all of these fatalities are happening, Odin and Fenrir are still fighting to the death. And to the point where they are both exhausted. But with one final burst of energy, even as Odin has struck him with his famous spear, Fenrir will stretch his enormous jaws open and swallow the all-father whole.
AMANDA: Oh, damn.
JULIA: So that is kind of the end of Odin.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: But one of his sons, whose name is Vidar, will quickly get his revenge, ripping Fenrir's jaw apart and killing the wolf, but not before Odin had already met his end.
AMANDA: Brutal.
JULIA: Meanwhile, as the battle is kind of coming to a close, as Surtr is slowly dying of the injuries that Freyr inflicted on him with his— his antler, he sets fire to literally everything with his flaming sword.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: Now, if everything literally being on fire isn't bad enough, there is a wolf named Skoll, who is the wolf son of Fenrir and a frost giant. Who has since basically the beginning of time, always been chasing after the sun.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And he, in this moment, finally manages to catch it and swallows it whole. So daylight is no more.
AMANDA: Uh, less cute, and uh-oh.
JULIA: And then there is another wolf named Hati, who is also known as Managarmr, who has always been chasing after the moon, finally sees it as well—
AMANDA: Ah, I see what happens here.
JULIA: —and it chews him up, making the night sky black without a single star.
AMANDA: Yeah. Bummer.
JULIA: So all of the realms will swirl with flame, the cosmos become a furnace, and the wild smoky winds will choke all of those who survive. Yggdrasil, the World Tree will finally fall, and the forge of the dwarves will light it on fire as well. And then one after another, the Nine Realms fall into the sea, and time will end.
AMANDA: Wow. That's definitive.
JULIA: Okay. So that is where Ragnarok is supposed to end, but it's not where it really ends.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Because we also know that what is supposed to happen after Ragnarok and the world ends is something more. So there's a couple of different sources that this comes from with different bits, that have been compiled to create a more coherent understanding of what happens after everything is supposed to stop happening.
AMANDA: This feels a lot like when I try to wrap my mind around the sort of, like, beginning and end of the universe, and I'm just like, "Yeah, it's just— it's just not— it's just not happening."
JULIA: Yes, yes. So the cycle of Ragnarok is very much a cycle as we're about to see. So after everything ends, and the seas consume the realms, eventually— and there's no timeline given really, because we also don't know how long it'll be until Ragnarok happens. So it's all fairly vague in terms of like— it's not like, "And then after a thousand years"— no, it's just like sometime later.
AMANDA: And, like, no one's in it, right? There's nothing there. It's all gone.
JULIA: Yeah. Exactly.
AMANDA: So there's nobody around to complain, "Are we there yet?" Like it doesn't really matter.
JULIA: Exactly. So, eventually, the Earth would rise again from the seas. Eventually, light returns to the realms as well, because the sun gave birth to a daughter before she was devoured.
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: And that daughter was as dedicated to her path across the sky as her mother.
AMANDA: Cute.
JULIA: With the sun back in the sky and the Earth emerged from the sea, plants would begin to grow again, fish would swarm the seas again, and birds would take to the sky again. And just as Odin and his brothers carved the cosmos from the corpse of the Ymir at the beginning of the world, and just as spring follows winter, life would come again from death.
AMANDA: Very beautiful.
JULIA: Yeah. So you would think that none of the gods survived the final battle of Ragnarok, because it's heavily implied that either, like, "Everyone died," and, like, we get a couple of very specific deaths that are described in the Poetic Edda, but it's kind of just like, "And everyone died."
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. These are representative of the whole.
JULIA: Yes. There were, however, seven Aesir that would emerge along with the world to rule the new cosmos. So from the dead, Baldur is reborn.
AMANDA: Gotta love it.
JULIA: As well as his brother, Hodur, who was the one that killed him accidentally. And their brother Vali, who was the one that killed Hodur for killing Baldur.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now with their rebirth, they've all kind of forgiven each other, they're at peace.
AMANDA: Oh, that's good.
JULIA: It's all good. No one's got— no one's bringing past grudges to this new world, which is great.
AMANDA: It's like, "Guys, let's leave it in the Great Sea, okay? Let's leave it in the darkness of the pre-cosmos, please."
JULIA: Exactly. So another one of Odin's sons Vidarr, the one who avenges his father by killing Fenrir, also comes back to the world. As do the two sons of Thor who are named Modi and Magni, who together wield Mjolnir.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: And the final god to emerge was the God Hoenir, who is interesting because he's one of the gods that negotiated the truce between the Vanir and the Aesir during the Vanir- Aesir war. Back then, he was said to be indecisive, and basically let Mimir be the one to negotiate most of the stuff, to the point where Mimir ended up kind of insulting one of the gods and had his head cut off, and—
AMANDA: Uh-oh.
JULIA: —like a lot of that is blamed on Hoenir who was like— if you had just, like, made a decision or came down on one side, Mimir wouldn't have been caught in the middle and wouldn't have had his head chopped off.
AMANDA: Yeah. That's incredibly not a good quality for a peace negotiator.
JULIA: Yes, for sure. Don't send the guy who can't make a decision. Basically, they were like, "All he does is like grunt," and, like, non-committedly whenever someone asks him a question, were like, "Okay."
AMANDA: Come on.
JULIA: But in this new world, he gains the ability to see the future clearly and basically becomes an advisor for the other gods. So—
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: —a redemption arc for him certainly.
AMANDA: Alright, Julia. What would your redemption arc quality be in the rebirth post-Ragnarok?
JULIA: I don't know. That sounds pretty good. I think Hoenir has got it, like, set up. Like, I would love to be able to, like, see the future and, like, see outcomes, and be like, "I think we should do this," and, like, have like a decisive—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —nature, because I am a indecisive person. Hey, baby, I'm a Libra. And it's just like I would love to make decisions, knowing what the outcome of those decisions will be.
AMANDA: Yeah, that'd be really good. It feels like a cheat code for me. Like, I— I think my real thing is accepting that life does bring pain and some decisions no matter how much you know. You know, you'll look back and wish you did something else, so maybe mine would be like, you know, courage of conviction is basically what I'm going for.
JULIA: I like it. I'm into it. I mean, that's the ability to kind of, like, be able to see and know, like, with certainty, like the decision I'm making is the right decision.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or even if it's not, like it's the one and we're going to deal with it, you know?
JULIA: Yeah. That's fair, that's fair. So those are the gods that survived Ragnarok and become a part of this new world and the cycle. But the gods are not the only ones to survive.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: There are mortal humans whose names are Lif and Lifthrasir, who are two humans that actually took refuge inside Yggdrasil and managed to survive Ragnarok. So they will give birth to children who will also have children and they will be the ones that populate the new cosmos—
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: —as well. And we mentioned this a little earlier. Rather than having someone like Hel rule over the evil dead, that dragon, Nidhogg, who has chewed through the Roots of the World Tree manages to survive Ragnarok as well and will suck the evil dead dry, so that nothing remains but rattling bones.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So the kind of, like, moral of this is like both life and the afterlife will become fair and peaceful in this new world. There won't be like, any suffering. Life will be balanced and beautiful.
AMANDA: Sounds lovely.
JULIA: Yeah. And while Ragnarok was the end, it was also this kind of new beginning. And I just want to read the Poetic Edda about this new beginning to kind of close us out here.
AMANDA: Alright. Let's do it.
JULIA: Now do I see the Earth anew, rise all green from the waves again. The cataracts fall and the eagle flies, and fish he catches beneath the cliffs. The gods in Ithavoll meet together of the terrible girdler of Earth they talk. And the mighty past they call to mind and the ancient runes of the Ruler of Gods. In wondrous beauty once again shall the golden tables stand amid the grass, which the gods had owned in the days of old. Then fields unsold bear ripened fruit, all ills grow better, and Baldur comes back.
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: I just love— you know, we got to wrap it up with Baldur.
AMANDA: You gotta. I— I love that image. I mean, there are a lot of really beautiful lines in here, but cataracts falling and sort of like a clear day dawning, that's something else. As is unsowed fields bearing ripened fruit, like damn, that's—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: — amazing.
JULIA: Like the idea that even when fruit is left, you know— like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —when this world is untamed by mortal hands or whatever. And we talked about the Utangard, and Innangard earlier on in previous episode.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: This idea of, like, the fenced-in world and then the wild. Like, the fact that the wild still can bear fruit that can provide for people is a really beautiful image. I really like that one.
AMANDA: 100%.
JULIA: Now, as you can imagine, just like Norse Mythology features heavily in pop culture, something as impactful as Ragnarok is also featured or mentioned often in that pop culture. So the first that comes to mind for me, of course, is Thor: Ragnarok, which—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —for a Marvel movie, it does hit on some interesting moments of Ragnarok that are at least somewhat close to canon— I mean, it's not close to canon at all, but there are moments—
AMANDA: Sure, sure.
JULIA: — where you're like, "Oh, someone actually did their research. That's good. "
AMANDA: That's a thing.
JULIA: Yeah. So for example, Surtr is featured heavily and he is basically in the plot of the movie. This is not a spoiler, it's been out since 2017. He is reborn in an effort to destroy Asgard and Hela, who's played by the incomparable Cate Blanchett in the process, because Thor upon losing his eye, sees a vision of Odin and then realizes that nothing but Ragnarok can stop Cate Blanchett aka Hela.
AMANDA: Sure, sure.
JULIA: I know many of our conspirators have also written in to tell us about this Norwegian show called Ragnarok, which is on Netflix. It takes place in a present-day Norwegian town, and the premise is basically like, this town is being plagued by, like, climate change and industrial pollution caused by factories, owned by a family that is revealed to be a group of Jotunn.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And one of the teenage boys in the town, basically the main character, finds out that he is a reincarnation of Thor and begins fighting against those Jotunn.
AMANDA: That sounds pretty fun.
JULIA: It does sound fun. I think there's at least three seasons out right now, maybe two.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: You know, I— I don't know if that struck work or not, I'm not gonna, like, be able to tell you right off the top of my head. But if that's something that interests you, I'm not gonna say go watch it, I haven't watched it personally. But it does talk about Ragnarok, because it is about Ragnarok.
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: And then video games also enjoy playing with themes of Ragnarok as well. Assassin's Creed Valhalla features an expansion that literally focuses on Odin's actions at the beginning of Ragnarok. I believe it's called the Dawn of Ragnarok, so—
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: And, of course, I would be remiss if I didn't mention God of War Ragnarok, which, as the name suggests, focuses on Ragnarok after the main character of the series inadvertently starts Ragnarok by killing Baldur in the previous game.
AMANDA: Very good. Very funny.
JULIA: Yeah. So if there's a game, or a movie, or a TV show that also features Ragnarok, I'd love to hear about it.
AMANDA: Or a poem.
JULIA: Tell us about it.
AMANDA: Yeah, let us know. We're at Spirits Podcast on all the platforms.
JULIA: I'm sure there's a lot of books that I just haven't personally read that, like, feature Ragnarok or, like, retellings of Ragnarok, and stuff like that, so I'm— I'm very curious to hear about it.
AMANDA: Yeah. Certainly, lots that aren't necessarily in English, but we still love to know about it, so we can recommend it to other conspirators who can enjoy that media in an original form.
JULIA: Exactly. So, Amanda, that's a wrap on It's Norse, Of Course.
AMANDA: Well, Julia, congratulations. And big ups to researcher Sally, you both did an incredible job on the series.
JULIA: Yeah, shout-out to Sally. We'll be taking a little break from our pantheon series until the beginning of next year, just so we can, like, get things together and get research going. I'm really excited about what we chose for next year, so I hope you all are as well.
AMANDA: We know it.
JULIA: But I'm excited, and I hope y'all enjoy the series. We had a blast doing it, and I hope you had a blast listening to it.
AMANDA: Yeah. And like Ragnarok, you know, we are— we are slumbering for a little while, just on this series. There'll be another episode next week as always.
JULIA: As always.
AMANDA: But I am really excited. We have a lot coming up that we are stoked about and some new things we're trying, some excellent episodes that we've already recorded that we know are coming up, so happy to be here and I'm— I'm happy for my— my cataracts to fall away and my new day to dawn, and my unsown fields to bear.
JULIA: Huh.
AMANDA: is that a pomegranate?
JULIA: Huh.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude.
JULIA: Amazing. I love a pomegranate-shaped object.
AMANDA: Amazing. Well, Julia, thank you, and do you have any like, I don't know, just like a fresh new word of wisdom that, like, our listeners have never heard before? Or perhaps—perhaps they've already heard it. Perhaps— perhaps they'll hear it again.
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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