Episode 408: Nephthys & Seshat
/We’ve got a goddess double header! We dive into two underappreciated goddesses, who really are way cooler than you were led to believe in your elementary school Egyptian history unit.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of sex, infidelity, pregnancy and birth, murder, and death.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends seasonal beverages.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: https://multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And Amanda, this week, as a part of Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, it's also what we've been doing by keeping an Egyptian mythology series from you on Spirits Podcast by Spirits Podcast.
AMANDA: It's true.
JULIA: We have a goddess double-header.
AMANDA: Prrr, prrr, prrr.
JULIA: Or double feature, either one. I like them both.
AMANDA: Julia, this August, I went to the boozy brunch at the Coney Island Minor League Baseball stadium.
JULIA: Yo.
AMANDA: Where for $60 you get unlimited food, drink and baseball, which is an incredible deal. Tickets are normally, like, $15 so it's, you know, it's a bit of a spend, but that's honestly what I'd spend on brunch and, like, a drag show. So I'm pretty into it.
JULIA: Also, like the idea of how expensive ballpark beers are in general, you are making your money back after, like, two beers.
AMANDA: I was like, "If I do two drinks, eat enough to replace, like, the $10 hot dog that I would have otherwise gotten." And hot dog sliders, Julia, were one of the options. And see, the baseball, I'm in the green. But I bring it up because it ended up being a double-header of baseball and so—
JULIA: Yo.
AMANDA: —the baseball was, like, four and a half hours long, so honestly, I made money. I walked out of there richer than I started. That's girl math.
JULIA: That's girl math, baby. I like the idea of unlimited baseball. It's like, you could just stay here. You could keep staying here, and those players will keep playing for you.
AMANDA: It basically was unlimited baseball. It was great.
JULIA: I feel like after a certain point, people are like, "All right, I'm tired of this when it comes to baseball, it's the longest sport." So at least in the United States.
AMANDA: You know, it was hot outside, so at a certain point, that was enough baseball for me.
JULIA: When you say bottomless baseball, that is what I'm picturing.
AMANDA: Well, tell me all about these goddesses. Why are we having a special double-header today?
JULIA: For this episode, we're going to be discussing both a goddess that we've mentioned several times at this point, who has a kind of supporting role in a lot of the Osiris-Set-Isis horror stories thus far that we've told. And we're going to be discussing a new to this series goddess who does have ties to another god that we've discussed in the series so far. So this episode, this week, we will be talking about Nephthys and the goddess Seshat.
AMANDA: Right on. I'm excited.
JULIA: So let's start with the goddess that we know. We're gonna start with our girl, Nephthys, who unfortunately gets ignored in favor of her brothers and sisters in a lot of Egyptian mythology.
AMANDA: Rude.
JULIA: As you might remember, Nephthys is the sister of Isis, Osiris, Set and Horus the elder. She is the youngest of all the siblings, and as you might also remember, she was the wife of her brother, Set. In many stories, it is explicitly, or at least inherently implied, that their marriage is not a happy one. It's either a sham marriage or it was like a marriage of convenience for Set or what have you. But it is not a marriage in which they really chose each other.
AMANDA: I really appreciate that this romance trope has roots in as ancient of stories as humanity has.
JULIA: Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. If you go back and you're like, "Oh, well, I love the enemies to lovers," or something like that. Mythology probably has that for you already.
AMANDA: It's like, babe, it's called the Titans.
JULIA: Called the Titans, baby. So Nephthys, you might remember, she mourned alongside Isis for their brother Osiris. And while, as I mentioned before, she often was featured as the devoted companion to her sister. Nephthys was actually a popular protective goddess in the funerary arts in her own right.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So she's not just playing second fiddle to all these other gods and goddesses. She was important in her own right, but we just don't remember her as being as important as she was. And we'll talk a little bit about that, and also perhaps that's a common feature with her and the other goddess we'll be talking about this episode.
AMANDA: Love a duology. Let's do it.
JULIA: So you're probably wondering, as we always do at the beginning of these episodes, how would we recognize Nephthys in art if we were looking at her in that funerary art that she was so heavily featured in? Well, she someone, unfortunately, at least from my perspective, does not have as many exciting forms as some of our other gods and goddesses. She's typically just a sort of female, anthropomorphic goddess. She's distinguished from the other anthropomorphic goddesses by the fact that she wears the hieroglyphic symbol of her name on the top of her head.
AMANDA: Oh, she's labeled. That's very helpful.
JULIA: A lot of the gods and goddesses are labeled when they're just a guy or just a girl.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: But she, in particular, it's really interesting. Her Egyptian name, as we talked about a lot of these names that we know the Egyptian gods as are their kind of Greek translation, their colonization names. So her original Egyptian name is Nebet-hut, which means Mistress of the Mansion. And as such, her hieroglyphic symbol sort of resembles, in my mind, at least a sort of ornate door.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: I'm gonna drop a picture for you, Amanda, so you can take a look. One second.
AMANDA: Julia, do you know when you get mail to your apartment or your house that's like, "Current resident."? I wish it would instead say, "Mistress of the mansion," then I might open it.
JULIA: I might open it, too. That's— it's real like, "Ooh, is the lady of the house home?", in the 1960s door-to-door salesman.
AMANDA: Ooh. This is like a very chic Art Deco door. That's what it looks like.
JULIA: Yeah. It really does kind of look like a very fancy door, in my mind.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: And it's really interesting too, because she and Isis are often depicted in human form as being identical, except for the hieroglyphics on the top of their heads. So we have Nephthys here, who has this ornate door at the top of her head, and then we have Isis, who usually has that throne on the top of her head.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So occasionally, you will see her in bird form, the kite that we've talked about in a lot of previous episodes, or with kite wings, much like we've seen Isis depicted as that as well. But usually, this form is only used as a representation in the retellings of the story of her and Isis attempting to find the missing pieces of Osiris.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: However, you'll also see both she and Isis depicted in this avian form guarding the body of Osiris as well, which I think is pretty cool and pretty neat. Also in this human form, which is Nephthys' most common form, she's usually placed at the head end of a deceased body, like we're seeing this in funerary art and funerary texts, while Isis is positioned at the feet.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, I don't know what that represents, necessarily, but I do think that as we talk about Nephthys and maybe perhaps her connection to our other goddess later, we might see why that might be the case. And then also we will see Nephthys alongside Isis, usually flanking Osiris, or at least the symbol of Osiris in funerary art. And when Osiris is seen seated at his throne in the Underworld, both goddesses stand behind him, representing both their protection and also their support of the king of the dead.
AMANDA: That's a god that you don't want to not support.
JULIA: Pretty important, and they're both playing such an important role in his own story that it would make sense that so much of the funerary art with him as the king of the dead, would have them represented there in some way.
AMANDA: Yeah, like, don't remember the political strength he has on his side.
JULIA: Exactly. So we know that Nephthys has a role in the funerary arts, but how exactly other than being this devoted companion to her sister and protector to her brother? Well, Amanda, fun fact, Nephthys is also considered the goddess of weaving, which I love that for her.
AMANDA: Really thought you're gonna say weed. This makes a lot more sense, but I was slightly taken aback. Okay.
JULIA: But since she is the goddess of weaving, she was specifically associated with the linen bandages that were used to wrap a mummy.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So much so, Amanda, that they were sometimes referred to as the tresses of Nephthys.
AMANDA: Oh, baby, that's an image.
JULIA: Incredibly evocative, right?
AMANDA: I love it. And reminds me of, you know, my guy, Walt Whitman, sort of rendering grass as the, quote, "uncut hair of graves."
JULIA: Hmm. That's spooky.
AMANDA: Isn't it nice?
JULIA: Thanks, Walt. That's so spooky.
AMANDA: Like, what is the grass? I like to lay in it. I don't know. Maybe we can kiss in the grass, uncut hair of graves. And that's why Whitman's the best.
JULIA: Kind of killed the mood there, Walt, a little bit, but that's okay. That's okay.
AMANDA: Unless you're a freaky freak like Walt, and then you love it. And you're like, "Yes, baby, let's talk about death, and lay down in the grass."
JULIA: Who's gonna match Walt freak?
AMANDA: Lots of people, apparently. Men and women all over Brooklyn.
JULIA: Hell yeah, dawg. Love that. That's true of Brooklyn now, baby.
AMANDA: Uh-mm.
JULIA: So I think Nephthys is incredibly cool, and it's such a shame that she is so kind of underrepresented and underappreciated in Egyptian mythology. She is very much this supporting character of Egyptian mythology. Her siblings all developed these cults of worship, but she never did. And I will say to her credit, she did become a very common figure on protective amulets, particularly during the late period, which is 664 to 332 BCE.
AMANDA: Why do you think that is?
JULIA: I think that they started realizing that she was incredibly important to the funerary rites and funerary arts. And it's also the play on— and we'll discuss this in a second. But the importance of Horus actually brought Nephthys into a more important role later on in Egyptian history.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: Even though she is playing this kind of— she would be, you know, Best Actress in a Supporting Role if we were doing a— an Oscar thing here.
AMANDA: Ah, thank you, yes.
JULIA: But she— she's never really the center of attention, but she does play an important role in the mythology. So we already know that she is one of these four deities that is core to the Osiris myth. And she actually parallels Isis and her marriage to Osiris, because she is married to the fourth brother, Set. However, there are stories where she is not particularly faithful to Set.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: We mentioned, I believe, in one of the previous episodes, that there's a version of the Osiris tale where Nephthys has a sexual liaison, more of a one night stand, really, with the god Osiris, which results in the birth of the god Anubis. And you might remember that is one of the reasons that is given as to why Set wants to kill Osiris.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Now, there is a version of this story that we get from Plutarch that is probably our best original text for the story, or at least surviving text for this story. But again, this is Plutarch, so he is very Greek, so it's going to have a lot of that Greek bias that we've talked about in previous episodes.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And so take what I say with a grain of salt, as it not being probably the most Egyptian telling of this tale. So in this story, Plutarch tells us that Osiris slept with Nephthys, thinking that she was Isis. As I mentioned before, they're pretty much identical in art, so that is not totally surprising. They're not twins, but they are portrayed as identical.
AMANDA: Again, Julia, very reminiscent of another great romance trope of the masked ball. One of the reasons why the Regency era is so famous. And weirdly, like modern day, there's a lot of, like, frat and sorority novels where they'll have, like, a masked, you know, themed sort of dance night thing. But easy to mistake an identity.
JULIA: Yes. Also very like telenovela kind of style—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —days. Like, "Ah, my evil twin has returned from the grave and slept with my husband."
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Except Nephthys is not evil here. You know, she just is like, "My husband sucks. You know who's great? My brother, who is my sister's husband."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Don't think about it too hard.
AMANDA: Don't think about it too hard. It's fine.
JULIA: So this is also really important that Osiris thinks that Nephthys is Isis, because it kind of gives Osiris this out, because adultery was considered a pretty significant crime in ancient Egypt. So he, as Osiris, did not willingly commit adultery.
AMANDA: Hmm. Okay.
JULIA: And so, like it's also odd though, because the story does not really punish Nephthys in any way. She doesn't face any consequences in her posing as Isis. She doesn't face any real consequences in cheating on her husband, and Isis isn't even mad at Nephthys or Osiris when she finds out about this, which is confusing as to why no one is reacting the way that you would assume someone would react in this sort of myth. So Plutarch goes on to say that Nephthys abandons the child that is born out of this tryst in the wilderness, which is extremely Greek, and the Egyptians would not have done. So it's—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —again, that real Greek bias coming out of Plutarch. He's taking a lot of creative license here with that, but she does so in the story, out of fear that Set will find out about the affair and would punish her or the child.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: This idea that only Osiris and Isis are in on all of this until later, when Set, I guess, finds out, and that's one of the reasons he wants to kill Osiris. But the implication is that the child, who is the god Anubis, is then adopted and raised by Osiris and Isis.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So I think, one, this story adds legitimacy to the kind of genealogy of Anubis by having him be adopted by Osiris and Isis. And also like— and because the story of Osiris dying and the mourning of Isis and Nephthys is— predates this story pretty substantially. I think that's why we don't see Nephthys really, like, facing any consequences that would have greater resonance in the rest of the mythology.
AMANDA: For continuity, I see.
JULIA: It's a continuity thing, and so they're like, "And then no one faced any consequences."
AMANDA: Fair enough.
JULIA: As you can imagine, Nephthys' relationship with Set is not good in all the stories. She is always on the side of Isis and Osiris. She never takes her husband's side in any of the mystical struggles that happen between him and his siblings, and then also his nephew later, even as those struggles begin to escalate.
AMANDA: I don't know about you, Julia, but that'll be a problem in my marriage if my spouse did that.
JULIA: Yeah. Well, what if— imagine, Amanda, instead you are a 1960s housewife. You couldn't get divorced, but your husband was terrible.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And he kept murdering your family members or trying to murder your family members.
AMANDA: Then I would quiet quit. You're right.
JULIA: Yeah.
Amand: Yeah. That's fair.
JULIA: You'd probably stay at your sister's house a lot.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: It's like heavily implied that Nephthys does not live with Set, but rather lives with Isis and Osiris.
AMANDA: Well, that seemed logical based on how he's acting.
JULIA: Yeah. I know, I know. So we know that she joined Isis in her mourning of Osiris, helped her search for and reassemble and bring Osiris back. And in the pyramid text, the two goddesses are often seen together. And as a pair, they are shown to assist, protect, and support the king. And in this role, Nephthys became one of the major deities held as the protectors of the dead, along with Isis. And she was one of the four guardian deities of the canopic jars and other important funerary items.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: Now, for those who don't know what the canopic jars are, I know we haven't talked a ton about those in this series so far, but they are basically jars that the very important organs of a mummified person would be put in.
AMANDA: Yes. Important rights, not unlike, I would say, like an urn for ashes, just in terms of, like, a thing that more of us may be familiar with who didn't grow up with this tradition. And I remember learning about it as a kid and thinking that was the most metal thing I'd ever heard in my life. So into it.
JULIA: Pretty metal that there's just a jar with a mummified heart in it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Pretty cool.
AMANDA: It's also just a great crossword word, canopic.
JULIA: So she also, interestingly, plays an important role in her relationship with Horus, as I kind of mentioned earlier. So by all rights, Nephthys is the aunt of Horus, but she also plays a very motherly role. As you might remember from the Horus episode, Horus was raised not only by Isis, but also Nephthys, and also that goddess that was the scorpion lady.
AMANDA: Exactly, Julia. As everybody knows, it takes a village, and sometimes the village is lots of scorpions.
JULIA: Yes. Facts. Very true. So I'm not entirely sure if Nephthys playing this motherly role is because she was one of the gods that helped raise the baby Horus. Maybe she's being combined with or confused with Isis because they are so intertwined. Whatever it is, there is this association between Horus and Nephthys that can only be described as motherly. She is portrayed as being one of the goddesses that nursed Horus as a baby, and as such, Nephthys was seen as the metaphorical nurse of the reigning pharaoh himself.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: And in that role, connected to Horus and therefore the
pharaoh, as we talked about in the Horus episode, she was so important in the depiction of the— I love the way that the notes describe this, but the morbid but crucial force of heavenly transition.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So basically, when a pharaoh dies, he has to be able to be strong enough in order to journey through the afterlife.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: And he gets that strength to journey through the afterlife from the help of Isis and Nephthys.
AMANDA: Important.
JULIA: Yes. And much like the pharaoh, the common people, the average person who also is going to make this journey had the ability to call upon Nephthys in order to have her there as a companion to aid during the journey through the afterlife.
AMANDA: What a crucial transition and a very high stakes scenario to need help from someone, right? Like, you don't want them to let you down in that specific moment.
JULIA: Right. And so both Nephthys and Isis are really these, like mother of the people figures, which—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —I think is really important. And they both, when they're called upon, were said to have these spells that were necessary for navigating through the various levels of Duat, the afterlife, right? And so if you wanted to get through the afterlife mostly intact, you had to call upon Nephthys to do so.
AMANDA: That's pretty great. I'm also noticing something that I sort of have taken for granted in the society I was raised in, which is like a cheapening and demeaning and almost fear of, like, the feminine, right? Like, that's one of the ways that a patriarchy rears its head is—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —is thinking of motherhood as not a fierce, strong and important thing, and the craving for being mothered specifically, right? For care, for, like, feminine care, but especially—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —maternal care as a sign of weakness. Because my first instinct when you said, "Oh, the important role of mothering the pharaoh." I'm kind of like, "Oh, like, why does the king getting mothered?" But that's my societal conditioning speaking, not the way that many other cultures have weighted motherhood.
JULIA: Right. And this is also a great representation of, like, in this Egyptian belief system, in this, like, Egyptian society. The mother was the one who was guiding and protecting the child, you know? So this idea that, like, he doesn't need to be mothered necessarily, in this context that we would use for the modern day society, and like patriarchy, but rather like he needs this level of protection and guidance from the gods, and it comes in the form of Nephthys and Isis.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And I think that's great. I think that's wonderful.
AMANDA: Me, too.
JULIA: I think we should listen to our matriarchs more.
AMANDA: Sometimes you read mythology and you are struck as if by a bolt of lightning about your own biases. And I think that's wonderful.
JULIA: Hey, sometimes that's great. Sometimes we're all learning new things here on Spirits Podcast. All right. So I think we'll finish out Nephthys with a quick poetry corner, which I think will actually transition us very nicely into our second goddess Seshat. So this is from one of the Coffin Texts spells, all right?
AMANDA: Among the best names of all time.
JULIA: Oh, Horus has protected you. He has caused Nephthys to put you together, and she will put you together. She will mold you in her name of Seshat, Mistress of potters. For such is this great lady, a possessor of life in the Night-bark, who raises up Horus, and she will bring to you." So, Amanda, we're gonna meet the mistress of potters, but first, we should grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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AMANDA: Hello, folks, Amanda here, and welcome to the refill. Welcome first and foremost to all the folks who have followed us for free over on Patreon. If you have been thinking about becoming a patron, you're like, "Hmm, yeah, like, maybe this month, maybe next month. Not quite sure. I want to, like, see what the deal is." Then you can go and follow us for free on Patreon. And then whenever it's time, if you decide to become a paying patron for things like ad-free episodes, bonus urban legend episodes, a video advice series from Julia and me, even custom Tarot polls from Julia at each equinox and solstice, you can do that at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And thanks as well to our supporting producer-level patrons, by the way, become a supporting producer-level patron. I'll read your name every single week, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Hannah, Jane, Jeremiah, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. And our legend-level patrons, become a legend-level patron, I will also say your name every dang week, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. Thank you all so, so much for your support. You sustain us and make us able to do this as our jobs, and we so appreciate it. Now, I am coming at you in our first episode of October, which, as we talked about, very excited. It's spooky season all around. But also it is the wonderful overlap for all the Amandas out there of both apple cider donut season and pumpkin season. Late September into early October, you can get a seasonal beverage. You can get a hot apple cider. You can get, like, a pumpkin cold foam, cold brew. Honestly, we are all so lucky to be alive right now for the renaissance of seasonal beverages, truly, that are coming in fall every single year. I saw recently there was, like, pumpkin oat milk soft serve and I was like, "Oh, okay, just dropping all my plans to, like, fly to LA." Not actually. And get seasonal soft serve. But if I could, I would. So whether it is a pastry, a soft serve, a salad or specifically, seasonal beverages, whether it is your fall or your spring, depending on your hemisphere, I highly recommend you try a seasonal beverage this week. And hey, like we say in the episode, we would love for you to write in with more urban legends. Send us yours, even if they're a little bit shorter than you typically think would make for an episode. We got some plans cooking up, so make sure you send in your urban legends, go to spiritspodcast.com and click the contact page. Or if you want to write us directly and attach photos of your pets or plants, or whatever else you want, you can write us directly at spiritspodcast@gmail.com. Always a ton going on over at Multitude. We just wrapped up the MultiCrew Drive where I had the pleasure of chatting with the hosts of Wow If True, our newest member show and your one-stop internet culture shop. Okay? It was so much fun. Isabel, who's an actual lawyer. Isabel J. Kim Esq. is her real name. She's one of the co-hosts of Wow If True. She and I did an email battle basically, to see who could write the best professional email, as structured by Eric and moderated by Amanda Silberling, the other host of Wow If True. It was so much fun. Many, many people said they would listen to a full podcast about it, which is so kind. But if you loved their energy, or you're not in the MultiCrew, and you were like, "Hmm, who are these people? Should I check them out?" Of course, you should. If you want two experts, the tech journalist Amanda, and science fiction author and attorney Isabel, to explain the Internet to you and why the internet matters in the real world, you gotta go check out Wow If True. New episodes every other Wednesday. So every other Wednesday, you gotta double dose of Spirits and Wow If True. We are sponsored this week by Volante Design. They are an incredible clothing company that makes incredible outerwear. They have both officially licensed apparel from series like Assassin's Creed, Star Trek and Devil May Cry, as well as high-quality handmade jackets that are from their original collections, like their cyberpunk line, their modern ninja line. Honestly, they are so beautiful. If you are the kind of person who loves it when somebody, like, in a coffee shop or on the bus or on the train is like, "Oh, hey, love the jacket." Like, get ready for that to be your every single day, if you buy something from Volante Design. They are truly gorgeous. And they've also been kind enough to make a promo code for us. So if you go to volantedesign.us, that's V-O-L-A-N-T-E, design.us, you can use the code Spirits for 10% off your entire order. It's a big deal for a fellow small business. We thank them very much. Use code Spirits for 10% off your order at volantedesign.us. And now, let's get back to the show.
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JULIA: Now, Amanda, we are back, and since we're doing two goddesses, I wanted to recommend for our drink this week, one of your favorite things, Amanda, which is the beer shot combo.
AMANDA: I love it, Julia. You have little drink and then a medium drink to nurse over the course of the next hour.
JULIA: True, true. So Amanda, we've got a funerary goddess, this goddess of weaving in Nephthys, and then we have our second goddess, who is a goddess of architecture and pottery, and math. So I'm gonna ask you, Amanda, because you're the beer shot combo queen, what beer shot combo would you recommend for these two?
AMANDA: Okay, Julia. I think the spirit is definitely fernet.
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: Because that, to me, is like a spirit that you're going to keep in a crystal decanter. And that says to me, architecture and math. Now, is it simply because there are sharp lines? Perhaps, but that's where my brain goes. So what kind of beer would you recommend? Often, this is sort of like an easy drinking, something that you can kind of nurse over the course of an hour.
JULIA: Yeah, with fernet. Because fernet is, like, weirdly— so for people who don't know what Fernet is, it's the bartender alcohol is how I would describe it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: It is like the alcohol that all the bartenders do shots of, like, before or after a shift. It is, like, weirdly minty and also bitter. It's like a slightly better Malort for my Chicago fans out there.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So I think you need something that is gonna, like, still be robust to stand up to it. So maybe something like a brown ale.
AMANDA: Yeah, I was thinking, like, a toasty, maybe an English ale, brown ale.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Maybe something oak-aged, something like that.
JULIA: I would say, if I was gonna stay local for me, the blue point toasted lager, I think would go really well with the Fernet.
AMANDA: Hmm, Smuttynose has a really good brown lager.
JULIA: All right. So that's decided. So here's your beer shot combo. Gonna grab your little shot glass of Fernet. Gonna grab your— whatever your local brown ale is currently and just go for it.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: Now that we've taken our beer shot combos here, Amanda, let's meet Seshat, who I mentioned briefly in our episode about Thoth, but who I think will be right up your alley, Amanda.
AMANDA: Oh, I'm so excited.
JULIA: So she is the female counterpart of Thoth, sometimes his daughter, sometimes his wife. It really depends. And she is also said to be the patron goddess of architecture, astronomy and mathematics.
AMANDA: Ooh, right on. Someone page Dr. McTier.
JULIA: She is the goddess who measures and records the world, the lady of builders. And is known as quote, "She who is foremost in the library."
AMANDA: Oh, I love her.
JULIA: If you can't tell I'm totally obsessed with her. So I think you will be too, as we— as I tell you more about her.
AMANDA: I'm already in. Like, I'm here. I've signed up.
JULIA: Okay. So let's start with how we can recognize her, because she is out here serving looks.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So she is usually seen wearing a panther skin, so just covered in spots. Panther aesthetic. We love to see it.
AMANDA: Chic.
JULIA: Because the panther skin was a symbol of the priestly office.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So she is often seen carrying a palm frond, which is carved with notches to mark all of the passing years, which harkens back to the fact that she is the one that measures and records the world.
AMANDA: Very good. Also, I think low-key a serve to say, "Look how old I am. Look at this face. Is this giving this? I didn't think so."
JULIA: "I didn't think so. I am 45 and I look at most 28."
AMANDA: Yep. Yep.
JULIA: "And I've had no work done."
AMANDA: But Julia being proud of those age— of that age and being—
JULIA: I know.
AMANDA: —like, "Look at these decades. Yes, that's right. Look at it and weep."
JULIA: Correct. Yes, correct. All right. So she also wears a headdress that consists of a seven-pointed star, or some Egyptologists think it might also be a seven-petaled flower.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: Now, on top of either that star or flower is what some have interpreted to be a inverted pair of horns, while others think it might be a bow. We're not entirely sure.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Like a bow, as in a bow and arrow.
AMANDA: I can picture it, yeah.
JULIA: And then finally, she's often seen holding, as well as her palm frond, various tools that are used for surveying, such as knotted cords that were stretched to survey land and structures as a like, you know, way of having a specific measuring.
AMANDA: A tape measure.
JULIA: Yeah, basically a ancient Egyptian tape measure.
AMANDA: Or my favorite tool, the laser level.
JULIA: Shout out to the laser level.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JULIA: I always feel so fancy. Like, I'm in a sci-fi movie when I break out the laser level.
AMANDA: Julia, I feel like I'm at the club, because it's like a disco ball just for me.
JULIA: Just for you. So despite how absolutely cool as hell her whole thing is, she, much like Nephthys, tends to be overlooked, I would say. She doesn't often appear outside of her role as the recorder of construction in other mythological stories. And she doesn't have a temple or a cult that is specifically dedicated to her, much like Nephthys.
AMANDA: Well, Julia, they can all thank her for the temples they do go to, because that bitch oversaw the construction of them.
JULIA: Oh, Amanda, the next line I have is, however, even though she doesn't have any temples of her own, she's depicted in a number of other temples, and she was even said to have some of her own priests. So we don't have a lot of records of these other priests, but there was a royal prince from the fourth dynasty who was known as the Overseer of the Royal Scribes and, quote, "the Priest of Seshat."
AMANDA: Righteous. I love it.
JULIA: However, unfortunately, in my mind, at least, Thoth kind of overshadowed her in terms of her role and her priesthood, and kind of subsumed a lot of the stuff, especially later on. But despite that, the Egyptians placed great value on writing, as we've talked about in previous episodes, and because she played such an important role in the construction of the temples, as you so rightly pointed out. As well as a part in the afterlife, which we will get to. She was widely venerated by the common people in daily rituals and commonplace acts.
AMANDA: We don't need a temple to hold our worship, Julia. We can worship wherever.
JULIA: Exactly. So even though she's not as well-known now, she was very well-known during her time, and she was considered one of the most important and most widely recognized goddesses. And for good reason, I will say. Because she is the goddess of writing, the keeper of the royal animals and the genealogies of all of the pharaohs.
AMANDA: Oh, you know, the thing from which they derive their divine right to rule.
JULIA: Kind of important.
AMANDA: Kind of important.
JULIA: I would say.
AMANDA: Kind of important.
JULIA: Kind of important. She is in art shown recording the prizes gained by kings in battle, not only to show like, "Oh, look how glorious this king is," but also as a solemn reminder of what the share due to the gods would be.
AMANDA: Hmm. That's very good.
JULIA: It's real, like, IRS tax person, but in a positive way.
AMANDA: I mean, listen, I— there is no one I trust more than my accountant. Like, that dude rides for me. That dude saves me so much money, and I make sure that I send him an email for Hanukkah every year.
JULIA: There you go.
AMANDA: I don't miss. I don't miss.
JULIA: No. Next time you should send him and also Seshat an email saying, "Thanks."
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "Happy Holidays."
AMANDA: I'll knot some string and be like, "Look, babe, this is like a three centimeter by three centimeter by three centimeter."
JULIA: I love that. So she is also, Amanda, known to assist kings in the laying of the foundations for temples, making sure not only that they were sturdy, but also aligning them with the stars and the planets to give them even more divine meaning and power.
AMANDA: Feeling very balanced, Julia. Feeling very Maat.
JULIA: Feeling very Maat, I would say. And as we know, the Egyptians not only love Maat, but they love to show the fact that there is a reflection between the divine and the mortal world. We talked about that—
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: —in the episode about Horus, where Horus temples were built to reflect the mansion of Horus in the afterlife, right?
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: While Seshat is helping with the construction of temples in the mortal world, she's also charged with the building of the mansions of the gods in their divine realm.
AMANDA: Big deal.
JULIA: Big deal. So not only is she doing a bunch of stuff for mortals on Earth, but she's also like, "I guess I can also build you guys a mansion over here."
AMANDA: Fine.
JULIA: So not only for the gods is she doing this, but she was also said to build the, quote, "Mansions of the West," which were for like the highly revered dead mortals, usually mostly pharaohs and priests and stuff like that.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And she did not just record what happened in the world, but also in the Underworld. She recorded everything in the realm of the dead as well.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Now, this is my favorite part. I mentioned earlier she was known as "She who is foremost in the library," right?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: She was also known as the mistress of the house of books, because she looked after the library of the gods, and she was the patron goddess of all of the earthly libraries.
AMANDA: I'm now remembering the Library of Alexandria again.
JULIA: Oh, no. RIP. RIP to the real one.
AMANDA: Seriously.
JULIA: So it was said— this is the part that is my, actually, absolute favorite. It was said that when an author created a story, an inscription or a book in the world of the mortals, an ethereal copy would be transferred to Seshat, who would place it in the library of the gods. So therefore, mortal writings could become immortal, just like their creators.
AMANDA: Oh, God. It is the cosmic ISBN number.
JULIA: It is.
AMANDA: Oh, I love it.
JULIA: I can feel all the queer librarians in our audience going like, "Oh, no. That's so sweet."
AMANDA: I know that we've talked a lot about different domains that I would want to have, but this might be the, like, actually, immortal, unending, cosmic duty that I would be delighted to do.
JULIA: I know. I know it to be true about you.
AMANDA: I love her.
JULIA: Not only, Amanda, was she the patron of all forms of writing, but this also included stuff like, and again, shout out to your accountant, accounting, auditing, taking censuses, basically all forms of record keeping.
AMANDA: So many people right now are going like, "Yes, yes, yes. This is me. Yes."
JULIA: "My queen, my queen, my queen."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: She was even said to be the one who invented writing, though it was Thoth who taught the mortals to write itself.
AMANDA: She's like, "I don't need to teach them. Here it is."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "Go forth and disseminate."
JULIA: And as such, Amanda, because Seshat is so important in terms of the written word, and the Egyptians valued the written word almost more than anything—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —women in ancient Egypt could act as scribes and do other written work.
AMANDA: Hell yeah, dude.
JULIA: I love this quote from Egyptologist Joyce Tyldesley, which is quote, "Although the only Egyptian woman to be depicted actually putting pen to paper was Seshat, the goddess of writing, several ladies were illustrated in close association with the traditional scribes writing kit of palette and brushes. It is certainly beyond doubt that at least some of the daughters of the king were educated, and the position of private tutor to a royal princess could be one of the highest honor."
AMANDA: Hell, yeah.
JULIA: So I love that. I love this idea of like, you know, in a lot of other cultures, because of misogyny and patriarchy and all of that, we don't see a lot of women being educated in this way.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: It is almost guaranteed that at least some women, especially of higher orders, were educated and could take on writing positions and scribe work because of how revered Seshat was.
AMANDA: That's amazing. Yeah. So often women, you know, royals or even just affluent women, their education is limited to homemaking, parenting, you know, social functions. Not educated, but limited in scope and access to reading and writing just gives you so much more freedom and agency in what it is you can learn, and record.
JULIA: Yes. I 100% agree. I just— I love this little fun fact about Egyptology here. It's so cool. And then finally, as I mentioned earlier, too, Seshat was known as the mistress of the house of architects, and she was associated with this ritual that was started in the second dynasty that was known as stretching the cord.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Now, this was a ritual that was conducted as part of the foundation rituals when erecting stone buildings.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: So the chord in this situation was the mason's line that we talked about earlier, that she was often seen holding, which was—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —used to measure out the dimensions of a building. So before constructing a sacred building, the ancient Egyptians would perform this ritual of stretching the cord, where a cord would be stretched during the laying out of the building's perimeter. And then pits were dug at those intervals, basically lined with like mud bricks, and then filled with votive objects, which were basically offerings for Seshat, for the protection of that building, before they were filled in and acted as pillars for the foundation of the building.
AMANDA: Beautiful. It's the time capsule cornerstone ritual that almost all of us do of putting some blood or sacred object or offering in the foundation of the building.
JULIA: I really think that we should start doing that more for, like, all new construction. I don't think it—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: —has to be necessarily for Seshat, but I think we should be leaving weird, little objects inside of all the buildings that we're creating.
AMANDA: At minimum, to confuse future homebuyers.
JULIA: Future homebuyers, and also, I'm thinking like, you know, anthropologists 1,000 years from now.
AMANDA: Oh, that's very good, Julia. What— it— yeah, okay. Hmm, what if— I know you're going to redo your basement at some point, consider if you're going to put in a new floor using like UV paint or something that will not like— or will degrade at a different rate. Perhaps we can sketch some arcane symbols on that floor before you then lay over a new floor or repaint it, just so that, again, if somebody were to survey it in the future, maybe we can lay some, like, action figures and, like, I don't know, coins and metal objects in the concrete. I'm just going to need it to be as confusing and arcane as possible.
JULIA: Yeah. So the thing is, my floors in my basement, I think are asbestos tile, so we can't rip them up.
AMANDA: So— okay. This is fine. We'll make a sandwich. Okay. So you'll have the asbestos tile on the bottom. You'll have the ritual offerings on top. Then we're gonna put some kind of, like lacquer, epoxy, something to really seal it in, both the asbestos and the ritual, and then we're gonna lay the new flooring on top. You're gonna lose maybe half an inch of headspace, but it's gonna be worth it.
JULIA: I'm okay with that. Our ceilings are actually pretty high in our basement, so I'm feeling that this could be doable and also scary.
AMANDA: This sounds like a plan. We'll get some objects from that trunk you found, you know?
JULIA: There was nothing in the trunk, Amanda. It was only ghosts, remember?
AMANDA: No, but we'll take some of its lining, or it's—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —or whatever.
JULIA: The thing is I will have to definitely make up arcane, spooky symbols, because Jake will be like—
AMANDA: Oh, we can't do real ones. No way.
JULIA: Yeah, we simply can't do real ones.
AMANDA: No, no, no. It's gonna— we're gonna like—
JULIA: I have to live here still.
AMANDA: I don't know, do the outline of a Neopet or something. You know what I mean? Like, we really have to just, like, draw from our minds here.
JULIA: Okay. Cool, cool. I think that could work. All right, Amanda, we've talked about Seshat and Nephthys in this episode. You're probably wondering why I paired the two together, other than the fact that they don't get the kind of respect that I think they deserve, which is a good through line, I think, in general.
AMANDA: That's reason enough for me, but yeah, go for it.
JULIA: But Nephthys and Seshat actually do have a connection, and that it's— Seshat was sometimes seen as an aspect of Nephthys.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: So for— I feel like we've talked about aspects before, but it can be a little bit confusing in terms of understanding mythology and timeline and chronology, and the different relationships between the gods in any sort of mythology. When we talk about an aspect, usually in terms of the historical it is one god was more of a minor god, or became minor compared to this other god, who then subsumed them as their role in the mythology.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So when we say that Seshat might have been a aspect of Nephthys, it's most likely that these two goddesses existed separately at one time. Nephthys became more important and thus became kind of entwined or rolled into the role that Nephthys plays in the mythology.
AMANDA: Makes sense to me.
JULIA: In the Pyramid Texts, Nephthys is identified as Seshat for most of the builders, And in the Coffin Texts, Thoth and Seshat, quote, "bring writings to a man in the realm of the dead." And many of these writings that they describe in the Coffin Texts are actually spells that were also associated with that magical protection that was granted by Nephthys, that I described earlier.
AMANDA: Goes hand in hand. How do you transmit magic to someone you can't talk to in real time?
JULIA: Exactly. You gotta write it down, hence, Seshat.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: In some depictions, Nephthys and Seshat worked together to help revive the deceased in the afterlife in preparation for their judgment by Osiris in the hall of truth, something we've talked about in previous episodes. But Seshat in particular would help new arrivals read and interpret the spells in the Book of the Dead that would help them move forward towards Duat. Now, remember, Amanda, when you asked earlier, you're like, "Well, what does Nephthys being by the head of a dead body represent?" That is probably Seshat as an aspect of Nephthys, basically giving this knowledge and helping to interpret the spells of the Book of the Dead in this newly awakened afterlife.
AMANDA: Extremely cool. Extremely metal.
JULIA: So together, these two goddesses not only acted as these impressive but undervalued figures in ancient Egyptian mythology, but they also acted as these important protectors in the afterlife, and I stand by the fact that I think they deserve more recognition.
AMANDA: Well, Julia, you've done it here today, and I hope that folks carry this forward. And every time they see a beautiful weaving, or in fact, go to a library or open a spreadsheet, which is but the architecture of numbers, I hope they think of these two goddesses.
JULIA: I think next time you open a spreadsheet and you're filled with divine inspiration, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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