151: Myth Movie Night - Hocus Pocus
/For Julia, nothing says Halloween quite like Hocus Pocus. For Amanda... she’s never seen it. Shocker. We dive into the Salem-inspired Disney Halloween classic, fall in love with Binx, question how a musical number could happen, and dream of a New England Halloween.
This week, Julia recommends Folk Magic and Healing by Fez Inkwright.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about kidnapping, child endangerment/death, hanging, burning, animal death, sexual harassment, and mind control.
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is episode 151, Myth Movie Night- Hocus Pocus.
Julia: I still cannot believe that you never watched this as part of your childhood. I feel like, in a lot of ways, you are Max in that you had to spend most of your childhood taking care of your younger siblings, so I understand it, but I still ... it's wild to me.
Amanda: Well, I thoroughly enjoyed myself. This was one of my favorite myth movie nights to date, and we get really into witchcraft, into history. We recommend some primary sources, so absolutely we hope that everyone else enjoys it too.
Julia: Yeah. No, it's going to be a lot of fun. If you love everything witchy and Halloween season, Hocus Pocus is a very nostalgic movie for that.
Amanda: You know who I would follow into a closed and haunted museum?
Julia: A bold choice. Would it be our new patrons?
Amanda: Our new patrons Morgan, Alpha Dogs, Quinn the Unicorn, Thalia, Carla, Anna, Lindsey and New Dude. Welcome. You join the ranks of such illustrious and exploratory patrons as our supporting producer-level supporters Deborah, Molly, Meghan, Skyla, Samantha, Sammy, Josie, Neil, Jessica and Phil Fresh, and our legend-level patrons Emily, James, Beam Me Up Scotty, Audra, Chris, Mark, Aylah, Cody, Mr. Folk, Sarah and Jack Marie.
Julia: Yeah, I would crack open a bottle of wine with any of those folks that you just listed.
Amanda: Speaking of which, our wine was so good this episode, Julia. Tell the people all about it.
Julia: Thank you. It was the Flora Springs Ghost Winery Red, which I stumbled across. Usually, I don't buy wine just because of the label and the name, but the label is-
Amanda: I sure do.
Julia: ... so good here. The label design on the bottle looks as if Matisse designed a Halloween feast.
Amanda: Oh, shit.
Julia: It's incredible. It's actually a red blend. It's mostly Cabernet, and then a little bit of Merlot, Syrah, and Cabernet Franc. Honestly, really good. Tastes like chocolate-covered raisins-esque, dark chocolate-covered raisin. A little bit of plumminess to it, but also really beautiful chocolate notes. Anyway, I was really happy with it.
Amanda: Yum. Me too. Speaking of which, do you have any other amazing recommendations for me and for the audience?
Julia: Yeah. Actually, I just picked up a book, and it got delivered right before I left for Boston this past weekend. It's called Folk Magic and Healing: An Unusual History of Everyday Plants by Fez Inkwright. It's beautifully illustrated. There's both practical uses for plants, and also the historical and spiritual reasons that these plants were used in witchcraft in the past. I absolutely adore it. It's really, really cool.
Amanda: I cannot wait to read it after you. It looks absolutely amazing.
Julia: It's gorgeous. I keep looking at it. I don't even want to open it. The cover is just so beautiful, and then the inside is absolutely beautiful as well.
Amanda: Well, much like a great book recommendation between friends, this week we'd like to ask you all, our conspirators, to support the show by recommending it to a friend. We hear from so many of you at live shows like, "Hey, I started listening to Spirits. This is my best friend, who I made listen to the show," and it's so heartwarming for us to see you spread the show, yes, so that it can grow and we can keep doing this for a living, but also because it's just a wonderful thing to bond over. If you're the kind of person who likes the sort of thing we talk about on Spirits, we know that it can be challenging sometimes to find people and communities that get you. We hope we can be a place like that for all of you. The more people you bring in, that's heartwarming. I love that.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. We love sharing the show with you, and we love that you enjoy sharing the show with your friends and family.
Amanda: Thank you to all of those who have recommended the show so far. Welcome to anybody for whom this is your first episode. Your friends did good. Without further ado, enjoy Spirits Podcast episode 151, Myth Movie Night- Hocus Pocus.
Julia: Today on myth movie night, Amanda made me relive some childhood trauma.
Amanda: Oh, no. I didn't know it was traumatic. What do you mean?
Julia: It's not traumatic. It just reminded me how much I was in love with the talking cat when I was younger, which is a little bit traumatic when you're 27 years old.
Amanda: That's true. Yeah, that cat goes through many traumatic things in this movie.
Julia: He does. It's very upsetting.
Amanda: But I appreciate your sacrifice here, Julia, because like many cultural touchstones of the '90s, I've never seen Hocus Pocus until now.
Julia: I just can't believe that. Bette Midler is in it, Amanda.
Amanda: I know. I had no idea. Also, Sarah Jessica Parker, who is shockingly a very good comic actor.
Julia: Yes. No, she's hilarious. It's a very good role for her.
Amanda: Yeah. But listen, while this might not be the most mythological of movies, I do think it's the epitome of American Halloween tradition, and the pop culture understanding of witches. It was super entertaining. It I think gives us a lot to talk about in regards to Salem and witch trials. I really enjoyed the movie, and I think it's a wonderful way to welcome Halloween to this month.
Julia: I know. I'm so proud every time I get to show you a cultural touchstone that is relevant to Halloween season. It makes me so happy.
Amanda: Well, listen. I made a list of the things I knew about this movie going in.
Julia: Okay, do it.
Amanda: The list had one bullet, which is that gif of the three witches and a cauldron.
Julia: Okay, interesting. I don't know which gif you're talking about too, which makes it-
Amanda: No, me neither.
Julia: ... somehow worse.
Amanda: I think it was one of the first views of them that we see, the three of them in the house.
Julia: Okay, interesting. Well, Amanda, do you want to get started on the summary then? We can hit some bullets as we go.
Amanda: Love it.
Julia: All right, so we open up on a book that politely tells us what year it is, which is very kind of them.
Amanda: It sure does. Very kind.
Julia: It is 1693.
Amanda: I was immediately like, "Wait, this isn't contemporary? Oh, fuck. I have a lot of misconceptions about this movie."
Julia: Very good. Also, on the book, there's a bunch of astrological symbols like that's scary.
Amanda: Yes, definitely. The same exact tradition.
Julia: Definitely. Definitely not something anyone is familiar with. Anyway, so we see the shadow of a witch flying over a small town, which we later learn is Salem. Thackery Binx wakes up to his little sister missing, and hear the creepy little Come Little Children song in the background, which is one of my favorites.
Amanda: Yeah. I've recently been reading The Parasol Protectorate series at the recommendation of several Spirits listeners, which I enjoyed. I loved the first book, and then my enjoyment diminished a little bit, but it was very entertaining. It takes place in Victorian London. I was immediately like, "Oh my god, why is he outside in his undershirt? He would never be outside without a tunic," because it is very concerned with proper fashion.
Julia: It's also October 31st. It is cold out there, my dude.
Amanda: Yeah. It is cold out there in Massachusetts.
Julia: Yeah. We see Emily following someone, it's later revealed who, towards the woods where "They're conjuring." There's weird colored smoke coming out of the woods.
Amanda: There is pink smoke. I watched this on Freeform, which advertised that they have those annotated versions of the movies, little fun facts and stuff, which was very sweet. But the one that they kept showing in the promotion was that shot of the pink smoke rising out of the woods, and then the little tidbit was the witches have elected a new pope, which might be the funniest joke I've ever heard.
Julia: That is-
Amanda: It's extremely good.
Julia: ... fucking hilarious. Oh my god.
Amanda: I know.
Julia: That's very, very good.
Amanda: Extremely good.
Julia: He follows her into the woods, where she is shown going into the witches' house. The witches are named Winifred, or Winnie, Sarah and Mary, just because they need names. It turns out that they have this weird grimoire, which they call the spellbook. I was convinced that they actually called it a grimoire, but too complicated, too much terminology for Disney Channel.
Amanda: Well, tell me about the grimoire. What does it mean, and how does it differ from a generic spell book?
Julia: A grimoire is technically ... it's usually known as a book of spells. It's more of a textbook of magic rather than a spell book, which usually is specifically just spells, but this also shows how to create magical objects like talismans, or amulets and stuff like that. It has information about different deities, and spirits, and demons, and angels and whatnot. A lot of people tend to write their own grimoires, which we find out is not the case in Hocus Pocus because it is specifically said in the plot that Winifred is given hers by the devil himself.
Amanda: Yeah, Master.
Julia: Which is not how that works at all. We'll talk about the just wrongness of the witchcraft in Hocus Pocus later on.
Amanda: Maybe like Moses with the Tablets style, she was anti-divinely inspired to write it all down herself. But no, it sounds like this book was given to her directly by the devil, and he has a little blinking eye.
Julia: He does. He seems alive. He's able to answer calls. He floats through the air at points. It's very interesting. They go to make a life potion, "life potion," to absorb Emily's youth, because that's a thing all witches want to do is be young and beautiful all the time, clearly.
Amanda: Uh-oh.
Julia: But Binx-
Amanda: Patriarchy. Patriarchy calling. Sorry, that's the patriarchy alarm.
Julia: I like the patriarchy alarm. Thank you for that.
Amanda: It sounds a little bit like a duck, but it's not.
Julia: Is it the Untitled Goose?
Amanda: No, Julia, because the Untitled Goose is pure and antifa, and the patriarchy is not.
Julia: He also go, "Honk."
Amanda: Honk.
Julia: All right, Binx manages to spill the potion before it can be used, but he is subdued by Winnie, who uses weird electric magic.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: Why not?
Amanda: You'd be very proud of me, Julia. I correctly identified the actor that plays Binx as that guy from NCIS.
Julia: Is it the guy from NCIS? Hold on.
Amanda: Yes, who I thought was Tom Hanks' son. He's Bill Murray's son.
Julia: Sean Murray. Did you know though, Amanda, that he plays Thackery Binx, but Thackery Binx the cat is voiced by a different person?
Amanda: No, I didn't know that.
Julia: It's voiced by James Marsden.
Amanda: No. What?
Julia: Yeah, which is why I had such a big crush on this talking cat.
Amanda: Oh shit. Julia, that's very good. Also, I wanted to point out that as he's turned into a cat, the cat casting is extremely good. The cat looked extremely mean, and ... not mean, but-
Julia: Angry.
Amanda: ... rightfully upset. Yeah. I really liked that.
Julia: I thought you meant the casting that goes into making him into a cat, the CGI effect.
Amanda: Oh, the spell casting.
Julia: Mm-hmm (affirmative), but I also appreciate that you appreciate the cat actor who played Binx.
Amanda: I did.
Julia: It's very good. They punish-
Amanda: What if he had a good name like mittens?
Julia: Yeah. I actually like the name Binx. I don't know.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: It feels like a good cat name.
Amanda: It does. It has an X in it, spooky.
Julia: They punish Binx, as Amanda said, by making him live forever as a cat. Not only is he turned into a cat, but he is now an immortal cat, because why not?
Amanda: Which sucks for Binx, but fuck, man. These witches are fun.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: They are funny. They're great. They're singing. They are well-dressed. They have a lot of rings, which I've always wanted but my fingers are big. Yeah.
Julia: They are also immediately interrupted by an angry mob. The scene where they're just like, "We're just old ladies in the woods." I'm like, "That's actually how it was, though." They were just old-
Amanda: It was actually how it was.
Julia: ... ladies in the woods. They weren't stealing children.
Amanda: Yeah. I have recommended it on the show before, but the book The Witches by Stacy Schiff is an exhaustively researched account of the Salem witch trials, and it is devastating for a lot of reasons, particularly patriarchy, and just religious groupthink. But it was absolutely fascinating. I think about it all the time. For more context on how this would actually happen, which often involved targeting vulnerable people, and those who just seemed different or didn't show up to church one weekend, I seriously recommend it.
Julia: Yeah. It is a very good read for the Halloween season, and a reminder that a lot of the stuff going on in Salem is tourist-trappy, and mocks the memory of these people who were subsequently tortured and killed.
Amanda: I got a lot out of it. It wasn't just like, "Oh, this was a sad thing. I'm going to dwell on it." It really had a lot of lessons for me. That's The Witches by Stacy Schiff.
Julia: Yes. Maybe we'll make that our recommendation of the week.
Amanda: Again. I mean I'll recommend it twice. She also wrote a good book about Cleopatra. Damn, she's great.
Julia: They are interrupted by the angry mob, and they are hanged as witches. But before they do, they put a curse on the town where they can return back to life, which becomes important later, Amanda, since you thought this was period piece. We cut to modern day from there, with the teacher telling the story, and also mentioning the black cat that still guards the house.
Amanda: So wonderful. What a good storyteller. I want to know everything about this woman.
Julia: We also are introduced to Max Dennison, who has moved from California to Salem. He is a skeptic about all things Halloween. Also, Amanda, do you know who almost played Max Dennison?
Amanda: Too old for Matt Damon. Probably not Heath Ledger.
Julia: Mm-mm (negative). Think of '90s heartthrob, and also Shakespeare.
Amanda: Leo DiCaprio.
Julia: It was.
Amanda: Really?
Julia: Leonardo DiCaprio was originally offered the role, but he declined because he was pursuing a movie called What's Eating Gilbert Grape.
Amanda: I have heard of that movie. I can't tell you any facts about it.
Julia: No, it's just the name. It's perfect.
Amanda: Man, every time I hear these alternate casting things, I'm just like, "Leo seems like such a brooder to me." He's such just that guy in Inception, and also a very suave Romeo, so I couldn't imagine him playing Max. Max has a wonderful tie-dye. He is very smooth, and flirts with his classmate Allison. Even though he is a skeptic, I feel like he takes on the teacher's, "What's wrong, Max," with some amount of grace.
Julia: Yeah. No, I'm surprised you call him smooth, because the flirting that happens, I don't consider that particularly smooth.
Amanda: I mean looking back it's not, but for a high schooler who is not a misogynist, then I thought it was pretty good.
Julia: He says something about Jimi Hendrix, and I was just like, "What are you talking about?"
Amanda: I don't know. I also love that he has a gigantic tie-dye tapestry in his bedroom, which just melds in with his shirt.
Julia: In her rebuttal to Max saying ... what was the quote? Max says something along the lines of Halloween was just invented by big candy. I'm like, "That is a wild statement you just made, sir." Allison says something to the effect of Halloween was originally called All Saints' Day, which is true, but it's also not the entire backstory, because as we know, Samhain was the first. Then as Christianity entered Celtic traditions, Samhain became All Saints' Day. As we've talked about on the show before, Samhain was basically where people would light bonfires, and wear costumes, and have feasts in order to ward off ghosts and other spirits.
Amanda: Yeah. She says too, "This is the day where the mortal and the supernatural planes are the closest."
Julia: Which is pretty accurate.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: It's just a bad '90s version of accurate, I suppose.
Amanda: Yeah. For more on that, I loved our Dia de los Muertos episode last year. It was Trina Espinoza. If you want to learn more about that worlds being close, and ways in which the barrier between the worlds is permeable, and how that's recognized in Mexican and Hispanic culture, definitely go check it out.
Julia: Max ends up leaving the school, and we get some really, really nice shots of the town of Salem, and also Marblehead, which is where they primarily filmed the outdoor stuff. Then anything indoors was filmed in Burbank in a sound studio. But they did a lot of the scouting and the filming for outdoor things in Salem, which I thought really gave it that vibe.
Amanda: It made me yearn to go pumpkin picking.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: Yearn for it.
Julia: For sure. It really sets the mood. We also meet the dumb town bullies, who basically try to ask him for cigarettes. Then he's like, "I don't smoke," and then they shake him down for cash, and then eventually just steal his sneakers.
Amanda: Yeah. I mean before iPhones, the most you could steal from a given person is just their sneakers or skateboard.
Julia: Also, sneakers expensive.
Amanda: That's true. I am wearing very nice pink suede Nikes that my beau got me last year, and they're very good. I would hate for them to be stolen. Also, they're very hard to lace up, so it would just be very involved.
Julia: Yeah. It's also, again, end of October. His feet are probably very cold.
Amanda: Probably very cold. Also, we have to note too that Allison is wearing a Red Riding Hood-style cloak, and so I totally thought she was going to be a witch.
Julia: I missed that entirely, but I'm also not surprised in the slightest.
Amanda: Oh, yeah. Outside of school, she ... or he approaches her, and then she gives him what he thinks is her phone number, but instead it's the same piece of paper that he wrote, which just has three digits on it, 555. We see her wonderful red cloak. I was like, "Oh my god. Beautiful girl, auburn hair, definitely a witch."
Julia: Yeah. No, I love that. That's very, very cute. What an outfit.
Amanda: Unfortunately not.
Julia: What a '90s outfit. He gets home. His room is extremely cool.
Amanda: Julia, he has stairs to the pergola in his room.
Julia: Yeah. I think it's a widow's peak, technically, because it's New England, because why not?
Amanda: I mean whatever. It's very cool. You can stomp down the stairs in the privacy of your own room after slamming the door. That's teenage goals.
Julia: I love that. In his room, he is scared by his little sister Dani, who pops out of his closet. Adorable.
Amanda: With a very cool ... yeah, through the closet, handheld shot, breathing noises. I was extremely willing for this to take a dark turn, but instead it was just the sister. But Max stupidly said the name of his crush, because now his sister knows.
Julia: Yes. Allison. Oh, Allison. I loved-
Amanda: Who just whispers the crush's name?
Julia: No, that's weird. Don't do that. Holds a pillow, pretending it's her. Anyway, Dani tells him that he has to take her trick-or-treating, as per their parents' instruction, because they are going to a party in the middle of town. He just starts drumming during this conversation, which I'm like, "Yeah, cool. So '90s."
Amanda: Definitely a way to blast some metal and drum, and that's all you need to do.
Julia: Definitely was in a punk band back in California.
Amanda: Yeah. I feel like he's also really shaping up to be a tender fish guy, because he has bass sheets. I thought that was very funny.
Julia: I think that it's they just moved into the house, so he hasn't changed it to his vibe yet.
Amanda: I understand. I just thought it was funny, and very sweet. The little boy things that stick around, even when you're a teenager.
Julia: That's fair. I get it. They end up going trick-or-treating. At one point, they ask Max what he is, and he goes, "I'm a rap artist." I'm like, "What is happening? You're in sunglasses and a hat."
Amanda: Yeah. It's extremely puzzling.
Julia: Yeah. During trick-or-treating, they run into the bullies again. Dani basically embarrasses Max, but he is able to deescalate the situation by giving the bullies his candy. Then Dani gets upset because he snaps at her, and they have a very brother/sister, I'm just mad because we moved here, and this sucks, but I'm not mad at you conversation.
Amanda: Which is good emotional intelligence.
Julia: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's like Max, despite being a little bit of a dick, is also aware enough to not always be a dick, which is important.
Amanda: Definitely. I love this early '90s parenting, where the parents are off partying, and the teenager has to supervise the slightly younger child.
Julia: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sounds right. Feels right. Max apologizes, and they go to a very fancy house that turns out to be Allison's. She's definitely a Daughter of the Revolution. Calling it now.
Amanda: Oh, 100%.
Julia: 100%. She is dressed in Revolutionary garb. Everyone there is in masks, and also pantyhose. That's not the word I'm looking for. Pantaloons? Yes.
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: Sure.
Amanda: She has that Lauren Shippen lineage.
Julia: She does. She has that Lauren Shippen lineage.
Amanda: But we also get a very good sister ex machina here, where little sister is immediately like, "Oh, yeah. You're Allison. Max likes your yabbos."
Julia: Yeah. It's like, "Oh, I couldn't wear that dress because I don't have ... what are they called, Max? Yabbos?" It was like, "Oh my god."
Amanda: It's extraordinary embarrassing.
Julia: Sassy little child.
Amanda: I had to pause, refill my wine. It was extraordinary uncomfortable.
Julia: But Allison also moves the plot along, because she tells them about the Sanderson house museum, which has since closed down, which always makes me sad when someone's like, "Oh, it was a museum, but now it's closed because funding." I was like, "I'm so sorry." RIP, RIP, funding, RIP.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Max says they should go, but Dani is reluctant because the kids at school have told her about it. She's like, "That place is creepy." He's like, "I want to impress this girl that I like." She's like, "Fine." They go to the house. Allison tells them about the spellbook. Apparently, this is where we hear about that it was given to Winifred from the devil himself. It is bound in human skin, fun.
Amanda: Yikes.
Julia: It has the recipes for all of Winifred's most powerful spells.
Amanda: That's true. I've always thought of a spell book as a reference book, but I'm glad to know the context of the grimoire. It seems like maybe the spell book is where you do note down or take notes on the spells that most interest you, but the grimoire is more of an encyclopedia-style reference book.
Julia: Yes, for sure. We also see the very important Black Flame Candle, which-
Amanda: He's going to light it, Julia. He's going to light it. Shouldn't light it, but he's going to.
Julia: Yeah. Apparently, it's made from the fat of a hanged man. Sure, why not? It raises the spirits of the dead if it's lit by a virgin on Halloween night. The term virgin comes up a lot here in this Disney movie.
Amanda: It does. Hey, listen. For anyone who needs us to say it, that's not a real thing. It's a societal construction. There's nothing you'll lose. Nothing you gain. There's not a hard line. Yeah, you're fine.
Julia: But anyway, they say it a lot in this film. It becomes very important-
Amanda: They do.
Julia: ... in terms of the film.
Amanda: I must say this is, though, the one going into a bad situation motivation that holds water for me. If I had a crush on Allison, I too would follow her to the depths of the earth, including a haunted house and/or graveyard, maybe on Halloween night. I totally get it.
Julia: Yeah. Amanda, you would do anything for a hot girl.
Amanda: Listen.
Julia: Listen.
Amanda: In my younger, unattached days, I would.
Julia: Max is attacked by a black cat when he tries to light it, but he manages to just toss the cat off and lights it anyway, like an idiot.
Amanda: Yeah. Don't do it, Max.
Julia: The floor glows green and rumbles. You assume that the witches are going to appear from underneath the floor. But no, they just enter from the front door, for some reason.
Amanda: It was very cool, though. The effects were extremely good. There was wind. The light bulbs exploded, and then got replaced with candles, or the candles got lit. It was very neat, having them appear from outside the door. I did a little gasp. It was really cool. I liked it.
Julia: We also see that the witches have not aged since they were able to de-age themselves with Emily's spirit or what have you. Winifred wakes up her spellbook while Mary attempts to sniff out the children, because that's her skill. I love that as a skill. It's very-
Amanda: It's very good.
Julia: ... giant in Jack and the Beanstalk-esque. They find Dani, who pretends that she lit the candle, because she's dressed as a witch. They attempt to basically eat her, and then Max has to intervene, but again is attacked by Winnie the same way that Binx was attacked by Winnie with the weird lightning nonsense. They are both saved by Allison and Binx, and they escape when Max sets off the fire sprinklers, saying it's the-
Amanda: Very smart.
Julia: ... rain of death or something like that.
Amanda: You know who was not as smart as Max, Julia? Unfortunately, that bride at the hotel for your wedding.
Julia: Oh, yeah. That's a fun story. Just real quick aside. So for my wedding, we booked a block of hotel rooms at a hotel where there were two other weddings happening the same weekend. Before I got there, at least, Amanda informed me-
Amanda: As soon as we walked in.
Julia: ... that the sprinkler system went off because a bride hung her wedding dress from one of the sprinkler heads, which activates the sprinkler head for the whole building.
Amanda: Yeah. It was clearly labeled, "Do not hang." We felt super bad for her. I think everything worked out, because her wedding was either later or the next day. It was okay, but it was extraordinary loud and wet when we walked in the hotel. We were like, "What's happening?"
Julia: Yeah, so don't do that. Read signs and listen to them.
Amanda: Don't light lighters under the sprinkler system unless you really need to.
Julia: Yeah, don't do that. So once they've escaped, Binx reveals that he can talk. He instructs Max-
Amanda: Whoa, plot twist.
Julia: ... to grab the spellbook. Very good. Very important. The sisters try to pursue the group, but they are scared off by a fire truck, because the fire alarm went off. This is very good. I really like the plot points here. Binx takes them to a graveyard because it's "hallowed ground," so the witches can't step foot on it.
Amanda: Sure, whatever.
Julia: He also shows them the grave of Billy Butcherson, who was Winifred's lover, but who cheated on her with Sarah, and so she poisoned him and sewed his mouth shut with a dull needle so he couldn't share her secrets even in death. That's a direct quote from this movie.
Amanda: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very, very intense.
Julia: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I was like, "Oh, this doesn't seem ... is this just flavor for showing that Winnie sucks?" Which okay, also she got revenge on a guy that cheated on her. I'm not feeling bad for this gentleman.
Amanda: No. Super relatable.
Julia: In a later scene, Winnie reveals that the magic that brought them back only works for the night, and that they need to use the life potion in order to stay alive forever. But if they don't use it, they'll get turned into dust.
Amanda: Dust.
Julia: Dust. The worst possible fate, dust.
Amanda: I don't know, man. As I was watching Buffy, I got extremely scared of dust.
Julia: Yeah, that's fair. Fair and valid.
Amanda: Don't take Spike. Don't take him.
Julia: Binx reveals that with his immortality, he has been around to protect the house, and prevent people from lighting the candle so the witches return for 300 years.
Amanda: Well, Binx, slept on the job, buddy.
Julia: Yeah. Well, he tried. Max was the only stubborn asshole not to be scared off by a cat. Max then tries to burn the spellbook, but as Binx points out, it is protected by magic. Then the witches fly in, and they try to steal the book back, but they can't be on the ground because it's hallowed, so what they do is they raise Billy Butcherson. Turnaround time is quick on Billy Butcherson. They send him after the kids. There's a lot of insults being thrown by Winifred being like, "Hey, you asshole. Go get those kids for me."
Amanda: Billy is also weirdly hot. Not to me, but I feel like he was cast as a hunk, and that really puzzled me.
Julia: Zombie hunk. That doesn't appeal to you at all?
Amanda: I mean I don't know. I'm sure there are sexy zombie costumes out there for sale.
Julia: Billy Butcherson was played by Doug Jones. You might know him from stuff like The Shape of Water, and Hellboy, and Pan's Labyrinth. He's usually behind a lot of makeup.
Amanda: Oh, I was going to say I don't know who this guy is, but looking at his face, I do know who he is. Amazing.
Julia: He plays the fish guy in Shape of Water.
Amanda: Very cool.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Very cool.
Julia: Anyway, love Doug Jones. Fantastic actor, usually behind a lot of makeup. Max manages to behead Billy, but he continues moving around, basically showing that he is also a zombie, or a ghoul, or something to that effect.
Amanda: I noted at this point there is some very good effects and physical comedy here. I am really impressed. I liked it a lot.
Julia: Yes. It is a genuinely funny movie. There are multiple times where I was like, "That was a good joke." Also, Winnie at one point calls him, "A maggot museum," which I feel like is a very good insult.
Amanda: I also really loved, "Bubble bubble, I'm in trouble," which was just a delicious little rhyme.
Julia: Oh, boy. I didn't even hear that one. I like that a lot.
Amanda: Extremely good.
Julia: The kids fall into a crypt and then escape through some tunnels, because they're attached to the sewer. Why not? Sure.
Amanda: Classic Massachusetts.
Julia: Just fix your infrastructure, please. Okay. The witches get hit on by a bus driver next. That's a thing that happens.
Amanda: They do. I will say though, it's very real that they would be amazed by pavement and clean water.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: This always reminds me, which I think I've mentioned before on the show, but I took a Shakespeare tour of Stratford-upon-Avon, and the tour guide was like, "Yeah, the thing that Shakespeare would be most immediately amazed by in the modern world is glass, because at the time glass was super cloudy and very small. Having giant sheets of glass would be just unfathomable."
Julia: Yeah. No, that's very cool. I loved the whole thing. They were like, "It's a black river." They throw poor Sarah onto it, and she's like, "Oh, it's solid. We can walk upon it." She's like, "This is a road."
Amanda: The bus driver, though, very patient and willing to answer their questions because he wanted to hit all of them, some of them.
Julia: All of them. No, he was very attracted to all of them. It was just that Sarah's the one that ended up in his lap driving the bus, which eventually runs over Binx. We see him just cat squished.
Amanda: It was terrifying. It was so bad. It was go graphic. I was like, "He must come back to life." But even so, for those 15 seconds I was genuinely upset.
Julia: Yeah. Then he reinflates, and he's like, "Yeah, I can't die. That sucks when that happens," because apparently that happens a lot. He's like, "I can't die because of the witch's curse." They're like, "Well, we'll take care of you. It's fine."
Amanda: I think, Julia, I may need a bit of a refill to reconstitute myself before we move onto the back half of the movie.
Julia: Okay. Let's not think about Binx being squashed by a car anymore.
Amanda: Nope. Drink to forget.
Julia: So Amanda, this week I was up in Boston for PodTales, which is an audio fiction first year conference. I really, really enjoyed myself, but I was a little nervous because I wanted to be prepared for it. I was going to speak on a few panels. I thought, "What better way of preparing for this conference than taking a Skillshare class, and then sharing what I learned?"
Amanda: That sounds awesome. What class did you do?
Julia: I took a class called Writing for Online Engagement: Fiction in a Digital World by Rebecca Sky, who's a YA author. It's just all about how to build a community around the work that you're creating, so getting your work out there for people who are going to love it, and are enthusiastic and excited about the things that you're doing.
Amanda: Amazing. Where can our listeners take that course if they wanted to?
Julia: They could take it Skillshare. Skillshare is an online learning community for creators that now has over 25,000 classes to help fuel your curiosity, your creativity, and your career. You can take classes in stuff like, for instance, online community engagement, or also mobile photography, creative writing, illustration. You were taking that macrame class, and that's incredible. That's so cool. You can join millions of students already learning on Skillshare today with the special offer just for our listeners. To sign up, you can go to skillshare.com/spirits2 for two free months of Skillshare Premium.
Amanda: That's skillshare.com/spirits2 for two free months.
Julia: Skillshare.com/spirits2.
Amanda: Julia, we're also sponsored by HoneyBook. Listen, running your own business, you get used to doing it all. You know this too, as a person who does all kinds of things freelancing for yourself. It's often very easy to keep taking more and more onto your plate because you're used to just doing it all yourself. But sometimes it's necessary to ask for help, or to pay a professional, or to use a service that will help you save time and get back to the stuff that you really love doing.
Amanda: HoneyBook is a huge time-saver for me, as a person who struggles with delegation and is trying to be better about that. HoneyBook is one of those tools that I really rely on. They are an online business management tool, so you can organize client communications, bookings, contracts, invoices, all that kind of stuff all in one place. It helps you run your business better. There are professional templates, e-signatures, automation. All those small things that save you five minutes here and there, and really adds up over time. Right now, you can get 50% off your first year of HoneyBook. That applies to both monthly and annual plans. So if, like me, you are trying to be really wise with your spending, it will still apply. That's honeybook.com/spirits for 50% off your first year.
Julia: Honeybook.com/spirits. Listener, if you are listening to this show, we think you're probably a big fan of fantasy books. We're going to take a moment and encourage you to check out the new book by fantasy author, Garth Nix, Angel Mage, which is brought to you by Epic Reads.
Amanda: It's a really wonderful style of magic where people make icons that get imbued with the power and spirit of an angel. It's not in any particular religious order. These are just ephemeral beings that live in a different world you can call upon to help you with different tasks. My favorite part is actually that it's a prosperous society, unlike societies where it's hard times of war, and you have to camp, and make do, and find your own goods. This is a world that is in for a reckoning, and being able to look at the military leaders, the hospital training system, the way that the crown interacts with the legislature. It's really fascinating, and a thing that I really enjoy in my fantasy, that worldbuilding. You can get Angel Mage now anywhere that books and audiobooks are sold. It's wonderful. We both really enjoyed it. That's Angel Mage by Garth Nix.
Julia: Angel Mage by Garth Nix. Pick it up at your local bookstore.
Amanda: Now let's get back to the show.
Julia: The witches arrive in town after their eventful bus trip with the very horny bus driver. They are extremely confused by the children in costumes. They take all of them as literal. They think they're hobgoblins and demons. At one point, a girl in an angel costume says, "Bless you," and they scream.
Amanda: It's so funny.
Julia: I was looking at the TV, and I was like, "Is that kid wearing a cardboard sonic costume?" He was, because it was 1993 at the time. It was excellent.
Amanda: So jealous.
Julia: It was so, so good. The witches are very confused by this. Then they see a man dressed as the devil handing out candy, and they take him as the actual devil.
Amanda: Who has very strong Jake vibes, I thought, at least in this moment, because he was in an elaborate costume, elaborate decorations, really stoked to scare children. It made me laugh.
Julia: Invited three women into his home to hit on them, sure.
Amanda: Not that part. Not that part.
Julia: Okay, cool.
Amanda: Before that part.
Julia: Also, interestingly, the guy who plays "The Master," and his wife are both really ... they're a brother and sister famous comedy duo. It's Garry Marshall and Penny Marshall.
Amanda: That's so funny.
Julia: Garry Marshall was in The Odd Couple, and then Penny Marshall was in Laverne & Shirley.
Amanda: Amazing.
Julia: Yeah, so big names, surprisingly, and funny that they played each other's husband and wife when they're siblings. Anyway, very good.
Amanda: That Dexter style.
Julia: Sure.
Amanda: Or reverse, because they're a married couple played brother and sister.
Julia: Ah yes, true. Max approaches a cop for help, but, one, he doesn't believe them at all, and also he's just a dude dressed up as a motorcycle cop giving them basically, and pretending to be a cop, and then sending them on their way. Then a hot woman comes out, and she's like, "What's up, man?" He's like, "Some kids thought I was a real cop."
Amanda: It was very funny.
Julia: It's a good movie. It's very, very funny.
Amanda: But to the witches' credit, they also do put together pretty quickly that Halloween has become a night of mirth.
Julia: Yes. They are chased out of the house by the dog, after the wife sees them dancing with The Master. She's like, "Oh, hell no. Not going to happen." But yeah, so they realize that the costumed children are just children. Meanwhile, the kids go to look for their parents at the Halloween party at town hall with a live band playing, but of course their parents don't believe them, obviously. That wouldn't be interesting if the parents did.
Amanda: Also, at some point, Max's dad calls either one of his kids or Allison a, "Young blood donut," which was extremely funny.
Julia: Oh, it's Allison. He's like, "Oh, who's this young blood donut?"
Amanda: It's very good.
Julia: Which is creepy, Dad.
Amanda: I respect some creepy parents who love what they love. These strike me as parents that cosplay, and I love it.
Julia: Yes. The mom is dressed up as Madonna at one point, and with the pointy nipple bra. Dani is-
Amanda: Oh, I didn't know what the reference was.
Julia: ... like, "Mom, what are you dressed as?" She's like, "Madonna." But anyways, so the sisters show up. Max tries to expose them by grabbing the mic from the band guy, but instead, the sisters enchant the crowd with the most famous part of this movie, which is the musical number, I Put a Spell on You, and now you're mine.
Amanda: It was so good. I want to watch this music video every day for the rest of my life.
Julia: Yes. No, it's fantastic. If you find a Halloween playlist, this is the number one addition. It's very, very good. It's incredible. Bette Midler crushes it, absolutely.
Amanda: I didn't even care that there is absolutely no way they would know about modern music, because it was so good it didn't matter.
Julia: No, but we also establish earlier on in the film that they put all of their spells on via rhyming scheme, so to put it to music makes so much sense.
Amanda: Maybe they're just super smart and know how to adapt to the music they were hearing, but it was extremely good.
Julia: Yes. No, I love it. It's fantastic. The kids escape again. They lure the sisters to the school, and using the intercom and a French education tape, they manage to-
Amanda: It's very good.
Julia: ... lure them into a kiln, which I was like, "How many schools have a kiln?"
Amanda: Ones that heavily invested in-
Julia: The arts?
Amanda: ... the material arts. I don't know. It was extremely graphic though. They trapped the witches in there, and then they burn to death, only not to death.
Julia: Yes. The kids don't know that though, so the kids celebrate their apparent win. Max basically adopts Binx as part of the family. Binx is like, "You guys are going to turn me into a spoiled house cat."
Amanda: So cute.
Julia: Dani's like, "It's okay, because I'm going to take care of you, and then my kids are going to take care of you, and then their kids are going to take care of you."
Amanda: It's so pure.
Julia: I'm like, "I'm going to cry."
Amanda: My heart.
Julia: Please take care of this boy who is also a cat. They return home. Their parents are still dancing, because the spell is still going on. Then it's revealed that the sisters, they can't die on this day. They have until sunrise. They're still going to return home, no matter what. They also run into the bullies from earlier, and they insult the witches, so they get kidnapped, and taken back to the house and put in tiny little cages. It's adorable.
Amanda: It suits them.
Julia: Yes. The problem is Winnie cannot remember the recipe for the life potion, so she tries to call the book back to her, which awakens, which also wakes up the kids. Allison and Max have this conversation where it's like, "Hey, maybe we can turn Binx human again." They're like, "Oh, yeah. That would be tight." They open up the book, which signals to Winnie that they've opened up the book, and where it is. Winnie goes out and does the thing.
Amanda: That pink pope smoke is back.
Julia: The witches take flight on items from the storage closet because their brooms were stolen by children, including it's a regular broom, a mop and then a vacuum cleaner, which is hilarious.
Amanda: It's very good.
Julia: After the kids open the book, Binx scolds them for opening it in the first place. They learn that salt circles can protect them, which is a plot point later on. Also, Max and Allison almost kiss, but they're interrupted by Dani being kidnapped by the witches. No times for kisses when there's kidnapping happen.
Amanda: No times for kisses.
Julia: Yeah. Sarah also summons children by singing her little Come Little Children song, because they're like, "What if we got all of the children instead of just one child?" They're like, "Excellent. Sounds great." Allison figures out that they have only until the sun comes up, because Winifred let that slip, or Sarah let that slip. I don't remember who exactly, but one of them does.
Amanda: There's obviously religious tradition where celebrating things sundown to sunup, or sundown to sundown are meaningful. Is there any evidence that we have that witchcraft and spell casting are tied to darkness and light?
Julia: I think it's more of the implication of darkness for spell casting, and darkness of night, because ... again, but this is the implication that oh, they're dark witches. They're black witches. They're evil witches, so therefore of course they're associated with nighttime. But I think it's more apparent that it would make more sense from sunset to sunrise, or sunrise to sunset because we have no real specific way of tracking time other than that.
Amanda: That's true. If it's this moment where it's All Hallows' Eve suddenly, and the worlds are closest, then maybe that gate starts closing in the daylight because of this connotation between light and righteousness.
Julia: Yeah. I think that's true and valid. Given that there is a heavy Christianity vibe to the Salem witch trials, and also therefore the witches in this story, that would make a lot of sense that light is righteous. The kids attempt to save Dani, who is about to be fed the potion. He says, "Daylight savings time," which is, again-
Amanda: Extremely good pun.
Julia: Sure. There's a red light that appears in the window, so the witches think that that's the rising sun and they panic. They're like, "Oh, our time is up," but really it's the brake lights from Allison's car. Soon enough, the witches realize that they aren't dying, as the kids escape again. They escape into the cemetery again, and are attacked by Billy. Max pulls a knife on Billy, and then Billy takes the knife, but then he uses the knife not to stab Max, but instead to slit the stitches on his mouth so he can finally talk again.
Amanda: Billy.
Julia: Billy. Oh, and then he just starts mouthing off and insulting Winnie. It's rather wonderful of a comedic statement. Billy winds up on their side. He's mad that he was cursed by Winnie and the witches. He's not super happy about it, so he's like, "I'll just help you kids. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I just want to rest."
Amanda: Again, I mean it's the opposite as to what really happened. It isn't that evil women are exerting their influence, and innocent men were wrapped up in it. It was very much the other way around, but it was entertaining at least for this film.
Julia: Yeah. There's basically this final battle where the witches attack them on their brooms. Max manages to catch the potion after Winnie drops it, and Winnie grabs Dani. They want to do an equal exchange. He's like, "Give me Dani." She's like, "Give me the potion." He's like, "No," so what he does is really brave but also stupid. He drinks the potion, basically forcing the witches to take him instead of Dani.
Amanda: Very noble.
Julia: So as the sun rises, Winifred is struggling to drain Max of his life force so they can stay there. She manages to turn into stone as the sun rises, and then the other two explode into dust, and then she explodes into dust.
Amanda: I was very jealous. I want to become a fucking awesome statue when I die.
Julia: Yeah, but then you turn into dust two seconds after, so it's not as cool.
Amanda: I mean not that part, ideally.
Julia: Okay, fair. Fair enough. You're just asking for the Medusa death is what you're asking for.
Amanda: Yes, but only if someone can lovingly craft me into a beautiful and also flattering pose.
Julia: Okay. Cool, cool, cool. Sounds good. Sounds good.
Amanda: Just requests.
Julia: All right. Then Binx dies.
Amanda: He does, and it's so sad. I see why you were traumatized now.
Julia: Yeah, this devastated me. It was not any better as a 27-year-old as it was when I saw when I was five. I was just very, very upset.
Amanda: It's so sad, though. I get it. He does come back as a hot ghost, and that's fine, but it's sad.
Julia: Yeah. Billy, meanwhile, returns to his grave because he's like, "I could just go to sleep now forever."
Amanda: I know. It was very sweet.
Julia: We do get to see the teen ghost of Binx, which is whatever. He is returned to Emily, which is sweet and cute. He gets to return to his family and stuff like that. He has a really punny line where he's like, "I had to wait 300 years for a virgin to light a candle." I was like, "Yeah, you did. That sucks. It's a shitty curse."
Amanda: At least there's no virgin shaming going on. This had to be one of the conditions of lighting the candle and bringing them back, but they don't make fun of Max.
Julia: The only time that he's ever made fun of is by the not cop, when they're like, "My brother's a virgin," and he gets taken to the side.
Amanda: Oh, that's true.
Julia: The cop's like, "Are you a virgin?" He's like, "Yes." He's like, "Okay."
Amanda: I'm just trying to look for the small wins here.
Julia: Meanwhile, I'm 90% sure the movie could've just ended there with Binx walking into basically what is implied to be heaven with Annie, but it doesn't. The parents stop dancing in the credits. They're like, "Wow, this town can really party. We thought LA could party." Then the bullies are still stuck in the cages singing Row, Row, Row Your Boat, which is hilarious. Then we see the spellbook open its eye one more time, and then we go to real credits.
Amanda: Oh, no. Spooky.
Julia: Very spooky. So Amanda, what'd you think of Hocus Pocus?
Amanda: It's fucking entertaining, Julia.
Julia: Reliving it now as a 27 year old.
Amanda: I loved it very much. It probably has no relation at all to witchcraft as we understand it, but that's what I rely on you for. In the meantime, I just really enjoyed it.
Julia: Yeah. No, it was a lot of fun. Again, it is implied history of Salem rather than the actual history of Salem. So if you're going to enjoy this film, keep that in mind. Really keep in mind that the witches are great, and despite the fact that they are in this trying to motivate themselves by killing children for youth, they are also fantastic, and folksy and delightful, and can sing like it's nobody's business.
Amanda: I don't know. Sarah Jessica Parker can do some good physical comedy.
Julia: She can. It was really good, although I feel like we're not giving Kathy Najimy enough credit. She's also fantastic.
Amanda: Oh my god, Najimy. She's so good.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: As soon as I saw her name in the credits, I screamed.
Julia: No, she's great. I loved her in Sister Act too. She's a lot of fun in that.
Amanda: Amazing.
Julia: She also does some great voice acting work now. She was in King of the Hill for a while, and it's extremely good.
Amanda: I love a world where there's just a bunch of women doing what they want to do. Maybe in this case it involves kidnapping and murder, but listen, we all got to make sacrifices. Just hopefully not other people's kids.
Julia: Yeah. Just make blood sacrifice as long as it's your blood. That's fine.
Amanda: That's true. Food you buy, and ethically source.
Julia: Sacrifice your own things, not the things of others. That's all we ask for.
Amanda: That's a very good lesson. Julia, did you ever have to pay or exert a candy tax on people on Halloween?
Julia: You know what? I would always give the candies that I didn't like to my parents, because we had very different candy tastes.
Amanda: Smart.
Julia: That's what I did. It was like, "Oh, Almond Joy? Fuck you."
Amanda: I never did. But as the oldest of four kids, I really should've.
Julia: You really should have. I feel like you could-
Amanda: I think I was so tired from supervising twins during trick-or-treating that I was just like, "There's no more time. I'm tired. I have a headache. I'm going to go to sleep."
Julia: That is fair and valid, my friend.
Amanda: Yeah, but this Halloween I am going to leave out a little bit of candy in the hallway for the Multitude office, and walk around and patron local businesses so I can just take a little tiny Milky Way on my way out.
Julia: Nice. If you ever want to stop by the house, Jake always dresses up as Michael Myers and scares the children of the neighborhood.
Amanda: Listeners, we will be back next week with a very special pre-Halloween episode, but I don't think it's ever too early to wish you a very happy Halloween. Remember-
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: ... stay cool