Episode 197: Music and Ghosts (with Erica Waters)
/Do you hear some otherworldly banjo music coming from the pines? Don’t worry, we’ve brought on author Erica Waters to guide us through her new book, the ghosts of her childhood, and murder ballads. Also humidity? Just ghosts.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, familial death, racism, social/financial inequity, generational trauma, murder, violence against women, implied cannibalism, and death by hanging.
List of murder ballads:
- Young Hunting by Sheila Kay Adams
- Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight
- Maneater by Blue Eyed Blondes
- Oh the Wind and Rain by Jerry Garcia
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Teenage Bounty Hunters on Netflix. Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- EXOLORE: Subscribe now to the newest member of the Multitude family, EXOLORE! Every other week, astrophysicist/folklorist Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional worldbuilders, or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built.
Guest
Erica Waters grew up in the pine woods of rural Florida, though she now resides in Nashville, Tennessee. She has a Master’s degree in English and works as a university writing tutor. When she’s not writing books, you can find her hanging out with her two dogs, Nutmeg and Luna, and forgetting to practice her banjo. Ghost Wood Song is her debut novel. Her second book, The River Has Teeth, will be published in 2021.
Sponsors
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
- Dipsea is an audio app full of short, sexy stories and wellness sessions that are designed to turn you on and help you get in touch with yourself. Start your 30 day free trial by going to dipseastories.com/spirits
- Blaseball is fantasy baseball, with an emphasis on fantasy. Start playing at blaseball.com.
Find Us Online
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast; a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is Episode 197: Music and Ghosts with Erica Waters, but also so much more.
Julia: So much more.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: I think we had a great conversation with Erica. It's always really nice to talk to someone who would – like, this is their debut book. And they're really excited about. And you could hear all the passion there. And it really makes me happy.
Amanda: We touched on so many subjects. All of which gave me great ideas for reading further. And I think you all are going to really enjoy Erica's interview and also her book.
Julia: Yeah, it's a very good book. Definitely, check it out.
Amanda: We are so pleased that our newest patrons have checked us out; Rhiana, Leslie, Eliana, and Alana. Wow. What a beautiful and, and sibilant string of names. Thank you for joining us. You make it possible for this
to be our jobs. Along with the supporting producer level patrons: Philip, uhleeseeuh, Debra, Hannah, Jen, Jessica, Keegan, Landon, Meaghan, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Molly, Mr. Folk, Neal, Niki, Phil Fresh, Polly, Riley, Sarah, and Skyla.
Julia: What wonderful people. The, the Megan trio still there. Love that. And I believe that they too would enjoy music and also forests and swamps.
Amanda: Absolutely. And thank you to our legend level patrons to whom I get to send fun packages every month; Audra, Chelsea, Clara, Drew, Eden, Frances, Jack Marie, Josie, Lada, Mark, Morgan, Necrofancy, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
Julia: What wonderful beings. I would play enchanted fiddle for them any day of the week.
Amanda: 1,000 percent. And, now, Julia, can you tell me what you were reading, watching, or listening to over this past long weekend?
Julia: Yeah. Jake and I kind of stumbled across the new Netflix show, Teenage Bounty Hunters, which I put on just as kind of background, wasn't expecting to really like it, but it seemed fun and like something to do. And, wow, it's really good.
Amanda: Really?
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: The bounty hunters are teenagers themselves?
Julia: The teenagers are bounty hunters and the bounty hunters are teenagers.
Amanda: Incredible. I love that.
Julia: It definitely surprised me in a lot of ways. It takes place in Atlanta, Georgia. And the two titular teens are like affluent, white Christian. So, I was like, “Hmm. I don't know if I'm gonna like this.” But it goes in a lot of directions that I wasn't expecting.
Amanda: That's awesome. I really enjoy – I know you, usually, don't do double recommendations, but I played through all of Spiritfarer, which you heard me learn about live in, in the Urban Legends episode. And it was fantastic and devastating. And, if you are ready for a fun sort of quest-style video game about grief, Spiritfarer is the one for you.
Julia: That sounds delightful. I'm really excited. I heard you can hug the different animals. It’s important to me.
Amanda: You can hug them. It's great.
Julia: Great.
Amanda: We also want to recommend, if you're looking for something to listen to this week, that Meddling Adults is back. Season 2 launched yesterday. And Meddling Adults went so well as an experiment that we're just bringing it back as a full show. So, I am so excited. Mike has some great guests booked for the season. And we're trying to beat last season's total of donating $750 to the 10 winning charities in total that the guests of each episode, who won, chose. So, we are very stoked. The art was refreshed. The music was refreshed. The show is like polished up and ready. And I really love it.
Julia: Yeah, I will say Mike did tell us one of the guests that he booked for the second season. And, when he did, I screamed. So --
Amanda: That's true.
Julia: That is – that is – if that's any indication of the quality of the guests this season, you should check it out.
Amanda: So, go to meddlingadults.com to learn more about the show or just search for Multitude in your podcast player and meddling adults will come right up. And then, finally, in terms of housekeeping for this week, before we get to this great interview, we are doing a mailbag/advice/listener follow-up extravaganza for Episode 200. So, if you have questions for that episode, please go to spiritspodcast.com, use the contact form, and put mailbag in your subject line, and we will answer your questions. We've talked on and off about lots of things about our lives in the show over the last 199 episodes. But we've never done a dedicated, like, Q&A mailbag ep. So, I'm very excited, and I cannot wait to record that.
Julia: Yeah. So, send us questions about our lives, about mythology about, you know, just all kinds of stuff. This is our get-to-know-you time.
Amanda: Podcast stuff, specific advice, times that you were listening to Spirits and something spooky happened. And, if there's any ways that Spirits has changed your life for the better or brought you closer to somebody, we'd love to know.
Julia: Yes, absolutely, we would. So, you can send those to spiritspodcast@gmail.com or through our contact page on our website.
Amanda: So, without further ado, please, A, buy Erica Waters’ book from an independent bookstore near you and, B, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 197: Music and Ghosts with Erica Waters.
Intro Music
Amanda: We're so excited to have Erica Waters with us today. She writes young adult fantasy with a Southern Gothic feel, which is already enough for me to be like, “Please come on to the show.” She's originally from the Pinewoods of Rural Florida and has made her home in Nashville with her spouse and two scruffy little rescue dogs. And Ghost Wood Song, which we're going to be talking about today, is her debut novel. Congratulations, Erica.
Julia: Congrats.
Erica: Oh, thank you so much and thank you for having me.
Julia: I do need to know at the start what the name of your dogs are.
Erica: Nutmeg and Luna.
Julia: Oh. Oh, so good. Both of them.
Amanda: Perfect.
Julia: I just started getting a little teared up.
Erica: Nutmeg is a beagle. And Luna is a little Chihuahua.
Julia: Oh, so adorable. I love it.
Amanda: I've also spent some time in Nashville. And I would like to know if Barista Parlor is okay. Is everyone there doing all right in East Nashville?
Erica: You know, I don't – I don't – I don’t live in East Nashville. I don't know how Barista Parlor is doing.
Julia: Oh, no.
Erica: I don't know if I've ever been to Barista Parlor.
Amanda: Well, it's extraordinary.
Julia: Well, once everything reopens. Yeah.
Amanda: It's great.
Erica: I’ll have to – I’ll have to have to check on it now though.
Julia: Perfectly.
Amanda: Yeah, they’re like a full fridge of Topo Chico. Like a Topo Chico branded fridge with bottles in it. And their cold brew is great. Anyway, just love those guys and I can't wait to go back.
Julia: So, Erica, would you start by just telling us a little bit about Ghost Wood Song so our listeners can kind of have a little background about what we're going to be talking about today.
Erica: Yeah, of course. So, Ghost Wood Song is a young adult contemporary fantasy. Meaning it’s sat in our world, you know, not like set in a secondary world that I made up. So, it is about a girl with a ghost raising fiddle. Meaning that, when she plays this fiddle, she can call up ghosts. And they can take a physical form and speak and even touch people. It's temporary and it's dangerous, but it's possible. However, that fiddle was lost when her father died. And, and – but she starts hearing it, calling to her in the pines – this fiddle tune that her father used to play. And she wants very much to find it. And then, when her brother Jesse gets arrested for murdering their stepfather, which, you know, she's like, “Of course, he didn't murder my stepfather. I have to solve this problem.” And the way she does that is she's like, “I have to find this fiddle. I have to – I have to raise my stepfather's ghost. And I have to prove that my brother is innocent.” And, so, that's – that's the premise of the novel.
Julia: So, there is a murder mystery. There's raising ghosts. There's music. I'm not saying that our listeners should pause right now and go preorder the book, but they should, in fact, go now and order the book. Just go order it from your local – your local independent bookstore. You're going to be happy. I promise.
Erica: I would love that.
Julia: Now, Erica, I would love if you can tell us – like, is there a part of your own, like, past experiences that you kind of tied into the book? Is there a certain, like, story from your childhood that you think kind of inspired the, the plotline for this?
Erica: Sure. Sure. Well, first, I'll tell you, like, where I came up with the idea for the ghost raising fiddle.
Julia: Please.
Erica: Which is more recent. So, I was working upstairs in my attic office and I heard a banjo playing. And we have two banjos in our house, but I was home alone. And, so, I was like, “Well, that's spooky.” And, so, like, I crept down the stairs, you know, like, all goosebumpy and the music stops. I go into the room where the banjo is. It's just sitting there all by itself. And I think, “Okay. It was just vibrations in the resonator. You know, that must be what I heard or something from outside that I just thought was a banjo.” But I couldn't stop thinking about this idea of a ghost playing a banjo. Like – or any, any musical instrument. Like, you know, why would they play it? What would they be wanting to communicate, you know? And then – and then I started thinking well, could – well, can music like that be a bridge, you know, between the living and the dead? A way – a way to touch beyond the veil. And, so, that's where I got the initial idea for Ghost Wood Song.
Julia: I love that.
Erica: But, yeah, I definitely have past experiences that shaped the novel, too. So, I grew up in a house that everyone in my neighborhood believed was haunted. So, this is where I spent my formative childhood years.
Amanda: Honestly, the dream.
Erica: So, it was this very old two-story house. And it was kind of falling apart. We were – we were pretty poor. I'll admit. It was probably filled with, like, asbestos and lead paint. And, you know, who knows what. However, everyone else believed that it was filled with ghosts. And, so, you know, it was really drafty. So, doors would kind of creek open on their own. And peoples saw things in the house that they couldn't explain. And, so, kids in my neighborhood would not come into my house. No one came to my house to play. We always played outside.
Amanda: On the other hand, on Halloween, I bet you had leftover candy that you could enjoy, which is also kind of the dream.
Julia: That’s true.
Erica: True. True. True. True.
Julia: I feel like, as a neighborhood kid, that would be – the only time I would go visit the, the local haunted house is during Halloween.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda: Fair. Fair.
Erica: So, I moved – I moved out of that house in third grade, but so many of my, like, early experiences are there. And, and there was one definite ghost sighting. Would you guys like to hear about that?
Julia: Absolutely.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: That was going to be my next question.
Erica: Okay. So, this is from my, my mom, who one night she says that an old man walked into the house and he was a ghost. And he said to her, “Don't worry, I won't hurt you. I'm just looking for someone.”
Julia: Ooh.
Amanda: Aah.
Erica: That's like our one definite – you know, like, this is the story that gets told over and over again. I personally never saw a ghost in that house.
Julia: Mhmm.
Erica: However, I will say that, some of the ghosts that I wrote in Ghost Wood Song, I later heard from relatives were similar to ghosts that they had seen in our house.
Julia: Oh, no. Oh, no, the subconscious
Erica: The subconscious. Isn't that creepy?
Julia: That is so cool. I love that. That is great.
Erica: It's kind of wild.
Julia: I was going to ask if you had ever felt like anything even if you hadn't seen anything. But, now, I have to – I have to circle back to your mom's experience. So, it was just like a creepy old man. Did your mom do any investigation to see, like, if anyone died in the house or anything like that? Or she was just cool with being like, “Well, you know, there's ghosts here. We don't need to know who they are.”
Erica: My, my mom takes the supernatural very – just very chill, you know.
Julia: Mhmm.
Erica: Like, she didn't even describe it as a creepy experience. She just saw him as a human being, who is now a ghost. And, so, I was raised with this – with this sense that, like, if ghosts exist, that doesn't mean they're scary or that we should be afraid of them. Like, I think I was – I don't know – raised with a kind of compassion towards ghosts. And, you know, so, like, growing up, it's like, “Do I actually believe in ghosts? Like, rationally, do I?” Maybe not. But it doesn't really seem to matter if my brain believes in ghosts.
Amanda: Right.
Erica: Do you know what I mean? It's like some other part of me believes in them from my childhood and the way I was raised. And, so, like, rationally, if I don't believe in ghosts, oh, well, you know, too bad brain.
Julia: Mhmm.
Erica: You believe in ghosts.
Amanda: Yeah. This is getting a little bit more into the, like, literary side of things. But I – to me, Florida is like its own plane. And, in talking about southern literatures, Florida literatures seems, to me, like its own subgenre as well. So, thinking about hauntings and southern Gothic and Florida as your place of origin, how do you kind
of, like, view all those things in conversation with each other?
Erica: Florida is an interesting place. I think, like, when I tell people I'm from Florida, they usually picture like beaches, you know, in Miami. But, where I'm from, it's more like Georgia but with alligators, you know.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Erica: It's – it’s oak trees, like, laden with Spanish moss. And its old falling down houses. And it's also a lot of
poverty, you know. So, when we talk about Southern Gothic, we talk a lot about these days – especially people who are writing Southern Gothic, we tend to talk about atmosphere, you know, and spookiness and ghosts. But, of course, Southern Gothic is rooted in poverty and, and racism, violence, and trauma. And, so, that part of Florida where I'm from, unfortunately, has a lot of those things. I think – I think you can't – you can't disconnect those – those roots of Southern Gothic from ways that it's being expressed now, because I think, if you just take kind of the aesthetics of Southern Gothic, they're empty.
Amanda: Right.
Erica: And, so, I don't see people so far mention that much about my novel. Like, I haven't seen very many people talk about, you know, how the protagonist is low income or how she's dealing with generational trauma. But that's really the kind of stuff that's at the heart of Southern Gothic. And then I think, coming specifically from, from Florida and the past that we have there and what things look like now, for me, that's kind of all bound up together.
Amanda: And, to me, haunting is an absolute motif as well. Like, that is generational trauma. That is the, you know, effects of poverty over multiple generations. Those are all hauntings and echoes of the past that we deal with whether or not we believe in them or want to recognize them.
Erica: That's exactly right. And that's – and that's how I approached ghosts in this novel. Like, the ghosts are real. They're very much like people who have passed on, but they are – they are very much also about my main character and her family's unresolved issues; the trauma of their past, the darkness of their past that they haven't been willing to bring into the light, that they haven't been willing to speak about. And I, I think the best ghost stories – I'm biased, I guess. But I think the best ghost stories are the ones where the ghosts are our unresolved trauma, and, you know, our problems psychologically, and our unresolved issues. Like, with ghosts, we always say, “Oh, they have, you know, unresolved issues. That's why they're still sticking around.”
Julia: Mhmm.
Erica: But, really, I think ghosts are more about our unresolved issues. And you can see that in books like I mean The Haunting of Hill House, which is one that I think most people will be familiar with if only from the Netflix show. Like, that's one of those that really walks that line between, “Is this real? You know, are these things really happening? And how much of it is just being drawn out of the characters who have their own issues?” And you can see the same thing with a book like The Little Stranger by Sarah Waters. Have you – have either of you read that?
Amanda: I know her music. I'm sorry that’s Sara Watkins. I’m so silly. No.
Julia: I haven't read it. No.
Erica: Yeah. So, Sarah Waters is she's a – she's an – she’s an amazing lesbian author. And this particular book is a ghost story. And it's really scary. It's one of the scariest books I've read. And, yet, at the end, spoiler alert, you're left wondering. I don't – I don't think – I don't think those ghosts were from anyone except for the narrator. Like, I think that was the narrator’s psyche, like, acting upon, you know, this haunted house. There's just so much to unpack there with, with ghosts and how much they're a representation of us and our hang ups and our trauma.
Julia: That – absolutely. And I think that's probably why authors are so drawn to ghosts as a subject. And I'm sure that's part of the reason why you are drawn to ghosts as the subject for your novel.
Erica: Yeah, definitely.
Midroll Music
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Julia: Mhmm.
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Amanda: And, now, let's get back to the show.
Julia: Now, I'm very – I'm very curious, because, obviously, music plays a really important role into your book. So, how do go sort of play into the history of bluegrass and folk music? Can, can you talk a little bit about that?
Erica: Yeah. So, so, bluegrass is a music – I think, when most people hear bluegrass, all they – all they can think of are the, like, [Inaudible 21:38], you know, like the banjo. Bluegrass, as a genre, is very much nostalgic. It's filled with longing. And it's filled with this longing for a home that may or may not be real, you know, as this kind of idealized past and sort of wanting to, to return to someplace that felt simpler, that felt peaceful. And, so, like, there aren't necessarily tons of bluegrass songs that are about ghosts. But I think there's – there's a beautiful resonance between bluegrass music and, and, and goes kind of in the way that we've been talking about them as this longing for, for home, this longing for family, this longing to connect with something that we have lost. There's a lot of that in bluegrass music. And, of course, bluegrass has partly grown out of more like Appalachian folk music. That's one of the avenues that bluegrass came to be from. And, of course, like, Appalachian folk has such a resonance with Southern Gothic literature, because it's dealing with a lot of the same themes; like poverty, violence, trauma. And, of course, Appalachian music is, is – has a lot of murder ballads. So, I know we want to talk about – I don't know if we're ready to get into murder ballad. Yeah.
Amanda: Always.
Julia: Listen, we're always ready for murder ballads. So, I have this – I have this, like, love-hate relationship with murder ballads. So, for listeners who might not know what I'm talking about, a murder ballad is like a traditional folk song that depicts a murder, which could be a real historical murder or one that's made up. And it kind of goes into the detail of the murder and then the outcome, which is usually the murderer hanging at the end of the song. But a lot of – a lot of murder ballads are about men killing women. So, you know, it's like a man impregnates a woman and, rather than, you know, owning up to it, he kills her. And, so, there's a lot of songs like that. But, after a while, you just get tired of hearing. You know, it's like, “Okay. We have – we’ve – we've had enough of the misogyny.
Julia: Mhmm.
Erica: But, that said, there are some – there are some really cool, murder ballads also about women who are the killers. And I can tell you about a couple of those that are my favorites.
Julia: Go ahead. We – we’re so excited.
Erica: Okay. Okay. So, there's – there's one called Young Hunting. And, and my favorite version of it is by Sheila Kay Adams. And, so, it's about a woman who – whose lover disappoints her, because he wants to go home to his wife. And she gets angry and, in a rage, she stabs him in the heart with a pin knife and throws his body into a well. And, so, that's, like, one of the – one of the few times you get to see women in the role of the killer in these songs, which is usually in a role of kind of jealousy.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Erica: But still it's – it's a relief from, from the constant murdered women, I have to say. That's a little dark to say, but, you know, it's like, “Okay.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah.
Erica: Finally, we get to see women in that role of power.”
Julia: Yeah, we can – we can take a pause on the Violence Against Women for just a minute, I think.
Erica: For a minute.
Julia: Yeah.
Erica: Oh, but there's one – there’s one other one that, that might be a little more satisfying. So, this one's not always categorized as a murder ballad, but I think it should be categorized as one. So, this is a really, really old song called Lady – Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight.
Julia: Wooh.
Erica: And this one – this one is, like, really, really old. I think it's Scottish. Anyway, so, the – this knight says he's going to marry this woman. He's going to take her off to live by the sea. But, once they get there and set, he says he's going to rob her and throw her in the ocean. And he tells her he's already done this to six other women. He's very proud of himself. And, so, she, however, is very wily and shrewd. And she tricks him and pushes him into the ocean instead. And I love the last line, which is, “The seventh has drowned you.” And, so, it's like not only did she drown him, but she really rubbed it in his drowning face. And I just appreciate that.
Julia: Plus there's a lot of magic to that. Being the seventh of something usually represents, like, power and, like, destiny and magic. So, the fact that she reversed the, the seventh curse, let's say, on to him is – that's beautiful. I love it. Poetry.
Amanda: Lovely.
Erica: It’s poetry.
Julia: That is excellent. I love a murder ballad personally. Like, whether it is a show tune or there's a couple of modern Southern Gothic murder ballads that I can think of. One being – it's called Maneater by the Blue Eyed Blondes. And it's just this beautiful kind of repetitive pattern to the music. And the story that it tells is great, and ironic, and delightful. The last line of it is – just to kind of spoil the song a little bit, it's he tastes like pig, but
that's okay. I eat him every day. It's extremely good. It’s very, very good. I stumbled across it on, like, a Spotify playlist. And I was like, “Oh, I need all of the songs like this. Please. Send me all of the modern murder ballads, listeners, please.
Erica: That is brilliant. I love it.
Julia: It's delightful.
Amanda: Are there other examples of music as a sort of, like, interdimensional ghost to concrete reality bridge that you can think of?
Erica: I mean I'm sure there are, but off the top of my head --
Amanda: It's hard to say. It's sort of like a – like a general theme. You know, there's the, like, Orpheus thing and the modern interpretation in Hades town. And I don't know. I mean there's – there's some way in which hearing other worldly strains of music will like lead you to a fae bower --
Erica: Yes.
Amanda: -- which just seems like one of those things that is so present it's almost hard to like think of an example.
Julia: I just – I just kind of want to, like, talk them off the top of my head to, like, the sirens --
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: -- luring sailors into the ocean via music.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: It’s like the opposite of what we're talking about here, which I just – I really like the association between music and death, because music feels so tied to life in a way.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Like, it is a thing that we – that is so intricately woven into being human and being alive.
Amanda: Yeah.
Erica: Yeah. And, in Ghost Wood Song, there is a sense of danger in the way that Shady, the main character, uses music and uses her fiddle to connect to the dead, because, once she starts playing it, she resurrects this entity, the shadow man, who is a danger to her and who threatens her, her very existence. And he's – he's a figure who was in her childhood dreams. Whenever she would hear her father play the fiddle, she would often be visited by the shadow man, who is this kind of shadow figure who would choke her, like, you know. And, so, he – after her dad died and the fiddle went away, that didn't happen anymore. But, once she gets the fiddle again and starts playing, she, she opens herself back up to this – to this entity. And I won't say too much more about him, because it would be a spoiler for the book. But there's definitely, I think, this sense that, when we use music as a way to connect to the dead or to, to another realm, that there is a sense of danger in it. And, and, especially with, with Shady, like, there's so much grief wound up in her music, because her father has died and she's grieving for him. And, so, there is that sense that, you know, she gets caught up in the fiddle. And she wants to keep playing even though it's hurting her and it's harmful to her. And, so, I don't know. Maybe there's something there.
Julia: Yeah, I love that. I like that there – personally, I just love stories where there is, like, danger within power.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: Like, having to yield power responsibly is always, always something that I love in my novels, and my books, and my world building. So, it reminds me of Amanda's – one of Amanda's favorite book series right there then with the Sabriel, Amanda
Amanda: Totally. Yeah. It's always great to me when like power is acknowledged as a sort of, like, the flip
side of danger, or those things are even on a continuum, or, you know, power wielded by rules is the only acceptable way, because, otherwise, it's, like, excuse to, you know, do whatever one wants. And that's why this sort of, like, live by a code like Jedi/Abhorsen thing in the Garth Nix series is so sort of compelling to me, I
guess.
Erica: Mhmm. Yeah. And I – and, while we're kind of talking about music and death, there is one other murder ballad I would love to tell you about.
Julia: Good.
Erica: So, this one is actually the, the music that starts out my book. It's The Twa Sisters. It's a very old ballad. Nowadays, you'll hear it more, more often called Wind and Rain. There's, like, a Jerry Garcia cover of it. Does that sound familiar?
Julia: I don’t think so.
Erica: Oh, the Dreadful Wind and Rain.
Julia: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Amanda: Yeah.
Erica: Yeah. So, that's actually from a really old Appalachian – or, actually, a really old, I think, England. That one's an English ballad. The narrative of that one is that two sisters fall in love with the same man. And, out of jealousy, one drowns the other. And, so, the drowned girl's body washes up and a musician finds it. And he shaped her bones into fiddle pegs. And he uses her long blonde hair as strings. And then that fiddle will only play one song, which is, Oh, the Dreadful Wind and Rain.
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: Ooh.
Erica: And, so, I – that's – that’s probably my very favorite murder ballad. I just – there's so much there. And it's creepy and it's sad. I don't know. There's a lot of poetry in the idea of sort of this, this act of violence being memorialized in a musical instrument. And, so, this is the song that Shady remembers her father playing. And that, when he would play it, he would go into this really dark place and he became inaccessible to her. And, so,
she's kind of a little obsessed with this song. She can't stop playing it. She's out in the Pinewoods all the time playing the song. And, so, the first time she hears her father – her father's music calling back to her, it's that song. And that's when she begins to follow the fiddle’s echoes and actually find the missing fiddle.
Amanda: Well, that's a very poetic and resonant choice of yours. So, I – oh, my gosh, I'm so excited to read the book.
Julia: I was gonna make a renew, reuse, recycle joke, but it seems inappropriate now. So, moving on. I, I also love the, the imagery. There's so many stories about people being lured into the woods by, you know, a baby's cry, or music, or the, the call of their loved ones. So, that is just such a quintessential image that I love that you're using it for your novel. It's – it's beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous.
Erica: Thank you. Yeah. And the Pinewoods, actually, like, I based them off of – so, I told you I grew up in a haunted house and we moved when I was in third grade.
Julia: Mhmm.
Erica: And we actually moved down to the country on five acres of pine. And, so, I had five acres of just pinewoods that I played in by myself pretty much all day as a kid, you know. Just – so, that's – it's like my entire childhood kind of bound up.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Just describing my dream to me. Thank you for that.
Amanda: I know.
Erica: In those times. So, you know, it is this kind of image of childhood that I don't think we, like, have as much anymore. It was, like, I spent all day by myself out in the woods with my dog in the Florida Pinewoods where there were, you know, like rattlesnakes and feral pigs. And that was just okay. That was just what I did. But, yeah, I definitely, like – like, for shading, the woods are simultaneously, like, this place of beauty and peace, but also they're filled with ghosts. And they're filled with a sense of danger, too. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely.
Amanda: I think my new head canon is that humidity is just ghosts. That the air so thick down there, because it's filled with ghosts.
Julia: I love that.
Erica: Yeah.
Julia: Just – just so oppressive and pressing in on us at all times from all corners. That's – that's good, Amanda. Thank you for that. That's wonderful.
Amanda: Oh, you're – you’re quite welcome.
Erica: Wow. That's quite an image.
Amanda: So, after everybody pre-orders and reads Ghost Wood Song, are there any examples of ghosts and
haunting in fiction that you return to again and again or maybe that people are not as aware of that you would recommend that people check out. I’d just like to shout out Carmen Maria Machado, a past guest on Spirits whose hauntings are manifold and so well put. And I absolutely recommend those to anybody who wants to read more ghostly fiction.
Erica: Yeah, I would also recommend Sing, Unburied, Sing by Jesmyn Ward, which I think came out in 2017. And, just as we've been talking about, you know, ghost as trauma. So, she's an African-American author. And, and that story is very much dealing with, with racial trauma and, and lives that have been lost. So, it's definitely a timely book always, but especially, I think, in this moment. And I think, also, to see someone writing in the southern Gothic tradition in a really authentic way, I would definitely check out Sing, Unburied, Sing.
Julia: That sounds wonderful. And we're gonna put it on our book list on bookshop.org. You can check that out.
Erica: Yeah. And it's – it’s gorgeously written too. It's just beautiful. The prose is just really lovely. And I think – I think I read it in two sittings. I just couldn't put it down.
Julia: Oh, that's my favorite. Just being able to sit down and power through a book that it's just – it won't let you go.
Erica: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah. It really feels like a otherworldly space to me, where I'll sit down and feel like I am completely transported into the world. And then look up and somehow time has passed in the way that it doesn't feel like it has. So, to me, that's kind of the closest I get to, like, a ghostly or otherworldly realm is getting really, really lost in a good story.
Julia: Absolutely.
Erica: Yes.
Julia: So, Erica, thank you so much. Again, can you let people know where they can find you and find your book and everywhere you are on the internet?
Erica: Sure. Yeah. So, my website is ericawaters.com. And, so, that's – that's a good starting place to find me. I'm also on Twitter as ELWaters and I'm on Instagram @EricaWatersBooks. And Ghosts Wood Song, you can buy it at all major retailers, but I'd like to put in a plug for my local independent bookstore, Parnassus Books. Yeah, they – you can actually get a signed copy from Parnassus Books if you order through there since I live in Nashville.
Julia: Heck yeah. And you can probably order that online, right?
Erica: Yeah, it's available for preorder right now. Yeah.
Julia: Awesome. Fantastic.
Amanda: Well, thank you again. And, everybody, if you hear otherworldly banjo music emanating from your local pine forest, just remember --
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.
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Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil