Episode 392: Mushrooms and Modern Horror (with Jenna Stoeber)
/Mushrooms and horror go together like peanut butter and jelly, and we’ve brought on our local horror expert, Jenna Stoeber to talk us through the history of mushrooms, horror, video games, and more!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of body horror, xenophobia, racism, death, psychological horror, drug use, sex, insects, and illness/infection.
Guest
Jenna Stoeber is a video essayist, streamer, and podcaster. She has a Master's Degree in Media and Culture, which she mostly uses to write really erudite dick jokes. Her videos cover topics like internet culture, better living through media literacy, and The Wicker Man. She streams cozy games, horror games, and, on occasion, cozy horror games. She plays Astra Blep on the hilarious actual play podcast Burnt Cook Book Party, and hosts the podcast Big Game Hunger, where each week she and a guest use random prompts to make the big next game.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Anything’s Pastable by Dan Pashman.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at https://spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out Pale Blue Pod!
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Oh, shit. I should have said mycology, legends and folklore. Fuck!
JENNA: It's too late now. No going back. It's only been 30 seconds.
AMANDA: Every week, we have a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia. And if you didn't check the title of this episode before you clicked on it, hey, thanks for loving us so much that you don't care what the topic is, but also it's Mushroom Modern Horror time. And I am so excited to talk about this as— as we kind of laid out in our Mushroom Folklore Roundup episode. A lot of mushroom folklore as we know it in modernity is more of a modern creation. And I am so excited to have someone on the podcast to talk about these, like, modern mushroom horror. Someone who I believe has a master's in horror, is that correct, Jenna?
JENNA: That is accurate. From University of Wisconsin-Madison, shout out.
JULIA: Shout out. And shout out to our— our good friend, Jenna Stoeber, who's here to talk about all those cool things with us.
JENNA: Hello, I'm here to talk about mushrooms as a horror icon, not as a food, because I do not care for them as a food.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. I— I feel that. I get it.
AMANDA: What is the turnoff for you as a food, texturally, taste-wise?
JENNA: Bad texture.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JENNA: Taste-wise, I find mushrooms to be unnoteworthy. I don't feel like they have a ton of taste.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JENNA: It really is just a texture when I bite into one, and it goes squish.
JULIA: Hmm.
JENNA: I'm like, "Oh, well, there's the horror. I just found it. I found the terror."
JULIA: That's what everyone was making movies about and making video games about, and books.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And— and all kinds of thing. It's all about that texture.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JENNA: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
JULIA: Now, what— what it's really about is various different things. I think mushrooms in general, in horror represent a bunch of different fears that society reflects, you know? Like, I think one of the first instances that I could find of, like, mushroom horror was, of course, H.P. Lovecraft, who just hated anyone who was not an elderly white man. But I— I think this is like a really interesting discussion that we're gonna have today about where horror around mushrooms comes from and what it kind of represents, and some great examples. And I— I brought you on today, Jenna, because one, I think that you are such a, like, expert in the field of horror, in general, and two, you are an expert in an area that I am definitely not an expert in, a casual fan of perhaps, but not an expert in, and that's video games.
JENNA: Hmm. Yes. I'm here to provide context on all of the scariest videogame mushrooms from— from Toad, and Mario, all the way up to Last of Us and beyond.
JULIA: And when I reached out to you, too, we also kind of talked about the fact that you've been playing a lot of indie games in which you play a mushroom?
AMANDA: Ooh.
JENNA: Yes, or become a mushroom.
JULIA: Or become a mushroom, which is very exciting.
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: I— I have not been playing a lot of indie games lately, but I have seen the kind of, like, growth of mushrooms as a representative thing definitely increasing. And I'm— I'm very excited—as someone who got really into mushrooming during the pandemic. I—
JENNA: Oh, really?
JULIA: Ooh, yeah. That was like, "I need to be outside," and then like mushrooms were pretty much the only thing that was growing in, like, the middle of the winter when I was going on hikes.
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: You know, Turkey tails, even in like the December and January, still grow, which is kind of impressive.
AMANDA: Is mushrooming the preferred term, Julia?
JULIA: I think it's mushroom foraging is— is one—
JENNA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Shrooming.
JULIA: —but— but I'm also not— shrooming is very good.
AMANDA: I think shrooming is much better than the thing I was thinking, which is mycelial spelunking—
JENNA: No. What—
AMANDA: —which I don't think— I don't think that's a thing.
JULIA: Hmm, I— I also don't think that's a thing, but I love that for you, and I— I love that in general.
AMANDA: Well, all I—
JENNA: It sounds like a euphemism, and that sounds like what you would tell your parents if you were like, "I don't want to tell them I found these mushrooms on the floor of the forest."
AMANDA: Yeah. Or maybe like treating an STI could be mycelial bacterial spelunking, you know?
JULIA: Hmm. Of course.
JENNA: Yeah, pulling away.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I was— anyway, my point was being— I don't really— I'm more of a mushroom watcher in the terms of like birdwatcher, where I'm observing the mushrooms and, like, documenting which ones I find and stuff, but I'm not foraging in the sense that I'm eating mushrooms off the forest floor, like you mentioned.
AMANDA: Okay. Alright.
JENNA: I didn't realize there was a distinct behavior, but yeah, no, that makes sense. Very few birders I know are eating the birds that they see, so I think that makes sense.
JULIA: Or catching them, you know?
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: They're just like, "Oh, yeah, look, there's a bird. Check it on my— my checklist."
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: So I— I kind of want to get into the history of the mushroom as a horror element. I— I did a little bit of research kind of going into this in terms of like, where did it start, when did it start getting really popular, and then what our modern view is? Like, when it started, like, being like in all the TV shows, in all of the books, in all of the, like, video games and stuff like that. So as I mentioned before, I think the first representation that I could find of like a fungoid creature was The Whisperer in the Darkness by H.P. Lovecraft. That was a 1931 novella. And it's basically introduces a race of extraterrestrial creatures that are specifically referred to as fungoides, called the Mi-go.
AMANDA: Oh, good, because I thought you said fungoid—
JENNA: Mi-go.
AMANDA: —and Julia, you said it with— you said it with full confidence and— but Jenna and me were like, "Whoa."
JENNA: Wow, is that it?
JULIA: Fungoid.
JENNA: Is that it?
JULIA: Like hu— like humanoid but fungus.
AMANDA: I mean, sure.
JULIA: Ah.
AMANDA: But damn.
JULIA: Yeah. So—
JENNA: I— I— it's— I— I never put together because I know about the— what you said, Mi-go, and that makes sense as a pronunciation. I always thought that it was called Mi-go. And I remember that because the— in the H.P. Lovecraft board game, like the big one that was really popular, those were always filled with like goodies. And so you would hunt them down on the map, because you were like, "If we— if— they're like piñatas, and if we beat them, we get— we get stuff."
JULIA: Ooh. Okay.
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: I— so I'm also saying it having only read the name and never heard it out loud before, so I could be wrong too, Jenna. You never know.
JENNA: I think that's a good read. It sounded right when you said it. It clicked in my mind. I was like, "That makes sense."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Makes sense.
JULIA: Well, these are like these weird extraterrestrial creatures. They thrive in darkness. They live in these like windowless structures on the cold, dark planet of Yuggoth on the edge of our solar system. And like Lovecraft kind of mentions them being like fungus-like. He describes them as like large, pinkish fungoid. Again, I love just saying fungoid—
JENNA: Fungoid.
JULIA: —with my whole chest. And also describes them as crustacean-like, but we're gonna focus on the fungus part. And it's really interesting because like— he's like, "Oh, they thrive in darkness, like mushrooms. They live in these like windowless, cold, dark areas, like mushrooms." And then the idea that these are like, oh, the— the extraterrestrial creatures, the other, which is always what Lovecraft stories are about. It's like, "Oh, the other is bad, and therefore, scary."
AMANDA: Now, as neither a sort of partaker, nor connoisseur of horror, I think I'm here to kind of take the straw poll. So how— how do we feel about pink as the primary color of a creature meant to be horrifying?
JENNA: Pro.
JULIA: I think that— I'm— I'm pro because I— I've read a lot of mushroom horror, both in preparation and in my like— my day-to-day life. And a lot of times the way that they'll go about describing it feels very much like rotting human flesh.
JENNA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And so by describing it as this kind of like, pinkish, you know, like, spongy almost consistency. we get these sort of like, "Ah, yes. This is like us, but decayed."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Which I think is what a lot of horror around mushrooms is about.
JENNA: For me, I had a formative experience, I believe in college where I purchased a jicama, and used some of the jicama.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JENNA: And then instead of putting in the fridge like I should have, I just put it back where I'd pulled it from, my countertop. And then I circled back to it, like, three days later, turned it over, and the cut side of it had developed this beautiful neon pink mold, the likes of which I've never seen before, nor again. And it was one of those—
JULIA: Wow.
JENNA: It was much like how I feel about all mold or mushrooms. It was horrifying and beautiful. So pro, pro pink monster fungus.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: I'm totally with that. I think pink as the color of our innards, and our innards being on the outside is what like tricks the— the— the most animal primal fear in— in me. So that's wonderful.
JULIA: Yes. And I think there is a lot of, like, really cool body horror around like human bodies and fungus. Like, I'm sure we're going to talk about that with The Last of Us. It definitely evokes for me the Annihilation movie—
JENNA: Hmm.
JULIA: —which I know people have like strong feelings about if they've read the books and then also seeing the movie. But like there are multiple instances of seeing a body transformed by fungus, which I think is a really, like, interesting body horror thing as well.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And yeah, I— I just think that body horror around like what used to be human flesh, identifiable human flesh that has now been transformed is very cool kind of horror to me.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Speaking of that kind of horror, one of the other, like, first examples of like human beings being infected by mushrooms in film is a movie that was called the Quarter Mass Xperiment, experiment spelled with an X at the beginning of it.
JENNA: Hey.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: This is a British from— from 1955, in which a like manned rocket returns to Earth, but two of the astronauts have gone missing and the one survivor has become infected or ill. And, like, the main concern of the movie kind of evolves around the fact that, like, this surviving astronaut is infected with some kind of fungus that is transforming him. And they're worried that he's going to spore and spread to other humans, which is like—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: —very scary—
JENNA: Very scary.
JULIA: —and very cool. I'll show you an image of the—the movie, like the infected version of the astronaut. It's very, very cool, especially for 1955.
AMANDA: Ooh. Yeah. Where there's a real kind of like ripping forth from the flesh feeling. His suit is like ripping open as growth happens out of his arm.
JENNA: Nasty.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. And then that is the fully transformed version.
JENNA: Real goopy.
AMANDA: That's very goopy.
JENNA: Really awesome.
JULIA: And these images will be included in the show notes for our patron editor's notes. I think just— because this is also a black and white film, I think goop is easier to get across on screen than like gore is, you know? So everything looks real wet in black and white films. Kind of following that one, we get a little span of about 8 years before we get another, like, big mushroom horror film. And the next big one that it's like really notable and representative is Matango, which is from 1963. It is a Japanese horror movie. And it's probably one of the earliest examples that we have of, like, the fungal horror. So basically it's a movie where a bunch of shipwreck people become infected with fungus and start turning into hybrid fungus human creatures. And part of the horror around this one is, yes, it's— it's mushroom horror, for sure, but it's also kind of tied to the— the radiation and nuclear horror in post-World War II Japan, which we see like— is the reason we have Godzilla and all of the Kaiju movies, for example.
AMANDA: Totally, yeah. It— it makes a lot of sense. And my—my brain is already circling around, like, what it means for my body, which I think of as, like, primarily me, totally under my control, like the sort of source, and, like, fields upon which my autonomy plays out, becoming the substrate for something else. Like, there— there is just a like— again, like animal, like base level identity shaking lost there that is really evident in, like, something growing out of what I thought was me.
JENNA: Hold on— hold on to that idea when we get to video game mushroom horror.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: Exactly. And now, I've also sent an image of what these kind of like human fungus hybrids looks like in the chat as well. And Jenna, I want to— I want to ask, does this remind you of any video game character? Because it reminds me of a couple of video game characters.
JENNA: It kind of looks like a messed up toad.
JULIA: It does. He looks like a messed up toad.
JENNA: And it's— it is— it's worth noting that Matango is like a hugely influential Japanese horror movie.
JULIA: Yes.
JENNA: So I don't think it's one of the ones that gets listed like Kuroneko or like one of the— one of the big ones, Godzilla, of them all, but like, for— for actual Japanese culture is— it is a huge movie.
JULIA: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about it? Because I know that like this was one of the first times that I, like, really heard mention of it, as opposed to like— it's not one I've seen before myself. So I'm— I'm very curious as to what may be the background or the— the importance that it places.
JENNA: I mean, here's what I'll have to say because I've watched it and it didn't— it didn't wow me. It's—
JULIA: Okay.
JENNA: It's unfair to say, but it is— I mean, it is sort of like the horrors of humanity, and there is a very, like, claustrophobic energy about the whole thing because there are— like they—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: —they're trapped in this very small space. It's— I think it's worth watching if you were really, really interested in Japanese horror, because it— it just— it was hu— it's just so influential, and it— it is such a weird standalone movie that is hard to put in context with other movies, because it comes after, like, the post-war horror that gave us like Godzilla and everything. But then before the J horror revitalization of the '90s. And so it's just like this weird, little—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: —low point in J horror, and then there's this one super popular movie.
AMANDA: Is it a real like fave of your faves? And so if you've enjoyed, like, the work that it inspired, watching it again, it's kind of like, "I get it. Like, whatever."?
JENNA: Yes. Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. Like, I think— once you watch it, you're like, "Okay, I can see there—there are themes that are bridging these other one spots of Japanese horror." So I think it's—
AMANDA: Totally.
JENNA: —it's— if you're a fan, it's worth watching, yeah.
JULIA: In terms of like TV and film and stuff like that, we do get a little bit of a lull in between this movie and the '90s. And so it's— again, like you just said, we kind of have that little like lull and then things pop off again. There's a couple of like D-list movies that are sort of like, you know, real low-budget stuff that— like Canadian horror movies and stuff like that, that kind of do feature these kind of fungus creatures, but nothing worth like super notable, I think, in my— in my mind at least. But then, Jenna, we get to another one that I think you're gonna know a little bit about, and that is The X-Files episode Field Trip.
JENNA: Yay. X-Files, X-Files mentioned.
JULIA: Are you— are you familiar with this particular episode?
JENNA: This is the one with the escaped convict, right? And they're like— the— it's a bunch of convicts, right? And then there's a— there's a disease going through that gets— makes them have like giant pustules, or am I thinking of a different one?
JULIA: I'm— I'm just reading the— the IMDB. "The skeletal remains of a young couple are found after they've been missing for only three days in an area known for UFO activity. Mulder and Scully have different experiences in the investigation, but nothing is quite like it seems." And I know this episode kind of features like this— the spores that are causing hallucinations, and, like, the— the fungus absorbs the body, and then there's like a weird gross, like, yellow fluid that's going on there.
JENNA: This is not the episode I was thinking of.
JULIA: Okay, that's fine. That's alright.
JENNA: Which just goes to show how many episodes of X-Files there are.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. I'm feeling a time for an X-Files rewatch just in my life personally, which I— I think is just a good outcome of this episode. But this— this one has two, like, parallel tracks of hallucination that eventually merge, which for me, the like— that psychological like psychosis horror is the scariest. So we're hitting on two different axis.
JULIA: Yeah. It is one of those episodes where it isn't revealed until the very end that, like, they've been tripping on mushrooms the whole time.
AMANDA: Basically.
JULIA: Which I— I do love the, like, you know, The X-Files episode where there's a logical explanation at the end, but like, we're all going to go through it for this 40-something minutes that this episode is going to happen, so—
JENNA: Yeah, this looks like a comedy episode.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: So— that usually has a punchline of, "You're hallucinating." It's fun.
JULIA: I— I love this line. I'm reading from the IMDB summary where it says, "Later, they report to Skinner and confirm a mushroom extending over 10 acres that causes hallucinogens to attract prey." We'll talk a little bit more about this later, but that's like a real thing. Like, there are giant, like, mushroom networks underneath the ground a lot of times. There are several different types of mushrooms that do, in fact, like, put out spores to attract prey and stuff like that.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But basically, it was like, "Alright, they end up pulling themselves out of the ground. The team confirms finding the mushrooms and then Scull"— I al— I almost did the same thing that you always do, Jenna, which is the—
JENNA: Yay.
JULIA: —the Mully—
JENNA: Sculder and Mully.
JULIA: Yeah. And Scully and Mulder are transported away by ambulance as the show ends. So it is one of those ones where it's like, "Ah, yes, you know, mushrooms can fuck us up." And it's really like—
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: I like the psychological mushroom horror, as well as like kind of just the, like, body horror of mushrooms. So this is a great example of one of the earlier versions of like, "Oh, yeah, you can trip on mushrooms, and your, like, perception of reality changes." Now, we're kind of getting into modern society, our horror of modernity, right? Like, these are, like, you know, kind of the— the history of our modern horror, but now we're talking about like— we're in the 1990s-2000s, getting into, like, you know, now times.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: I want to talk a little bit about that, and I think our best course of action is to start with The Last of Us.
JENNA: Okay.
JULIA: But I also think we should grab a refill before we do that.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. Let's get started by thanking our newest patron, Caitlin. Caitlin, thank you so much for going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast and signing up for our Patreon, where we have such cool rewards like recipe cards for every single episode, ad-free episodes, and so much more. Check it out. And hey, thank you to our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jeremiah, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, and Sarah. And of course, our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And you too can go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast and join today and help make this show what it is. We can't make this show without your support at Patreon. So again, head over to patreon.com/spiritspodcast today and sign up. My recommendation for you this week is the cookbook, Anything’s Pastable by Dan Pashman. And let me tell you, I take out a lot of cookbooks from my library. Usually, they're like readily available. I can just grab them and go and see what I want to make for dinner. I waited weeks for Anything’s Pastable, and it was worth it. I read that thing from cover to cover. I'm going to buy myself a physical copy, so I can enjoy it and use the recipes all the time. It is fantastic. And it's not just Italian recipes, it's a bunch of different recipes, all sorts of different pastas, and I am so excited to make so much pasta this summer. I— it's going to be great. Anyway, that's Anything’s Pastable by Dan Pashman. And of course, I want to recommend to you a show here on the Multitude collective, and that is Pale Blue Pod. You've heard us talk about Pale Blue Pod before. Pale Blue Pod is an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe but hey, they also want to be its friend. 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[theme]
JULIA: We are back. And Jenna, what have you been enjoying beverage-wise lately? Like cocktails, mocktails coffee creations, interesting tea combinations?
AMANDA: Mushroom tea?
JULIA: Mushroom tea, perhaps?
JENNA: No, never. Mushroom tea is the worst. It is the worst. I take back what I said about mushroom having bad flavors, or not bad flavors. Mushroom tea is truly terrible, or mushroom coffee even, bad.
AMANDA: I don't even deign to call it that.
JENNA: I do not care for it.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JENNA: No, yeah. What's wrong with beans, people? Beans are fine.
AMANDA: Jenna pro bean, pro flatbread, pro mushrooms only in horror.
JENNA: Yes, it's true. I've been drinking a lot of coffee, but I recently uncovered a new— not— it's not Bailey's. I guess it's just called—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: —Irish cream when it's not Bailey's.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: But one of the Italian grocery stores in St. Louis sell— sold tiny, little bottles and they're like—
JULIA: Ooh.
JENNA: —triangular almost. And I was like, "Wow."
AMANDA: Ooh.
JENNA: "Aesthetically, this is so pleasing to me."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JENNA: "I will drink your Irish cream. Thank you." And that's been very satisfying. Not a mushroom in sight, though.
JULIA: That's fair. And I— this is also a great— and thank you, Amanda, for mentioning this, because I know that there's been a lot of— like, in recent years, like health food stores are like, "Yeah, you know, we're— we're rediscovering ancient Chinese medicine," which has been around for 1,500 years or so. But they're like, "Ah, yeah, Lion's Mane tinctures, and all these different kinds of mushrooms and stuff like that." And one of the big ones that has been kind of in the health food trend lately is cordyceps.
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: Which is important for us to talk about, because it is the mushroom from The Last of Us.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JENNA: Yes. Yeah, so mushrooms have mostly been, like, healing items in video games, I would say until like— and basically until The Last of Us or until the early 2010s.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: But it's worth noting. So The Last of Us is just one of a number of horror properties that were reacting to this moment in the late 2000s, where people learned about cordyceps mushrooms and the fact that they basically infect ant brains and make those ants do things that they wouldn't do like— like become— let themselves become prey to other creatures, or like sacrifice their bodies in order to fertilize fungus. And it's because the fungus gets in their brain and makes them do all these crazy stuff. So there was no— most notably for The Last of Us, there was a documentary, a planet Earth episode about cordyceps that came out in, I think, 2008 or 2009.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And that was— that set off this huge cultural moment where people were like, "Cordyceps. Ooh. We've got a new boogeyman." And so there was about— I don't know if you— y'all remember this moment. there was just like 100,000 news articles being like, "Cordyceps, the killer fungus." Y'all remember that?
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: This completely missed me. This is the first time I'm hearing this word, and I don't even know what The Last of Us is really about.
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: So I'm— I'm like so fresh to this 15 years later, like hit me up.
JENNA: Incredible.
JULIA: Jenna, I know exactly what you're talking about, because I remember those clips of like the ants being taken over and stuff like that. And, like, kind of the— the zombie ant was a thing that I really remember being a buzzword or a buzz phrase.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But for the Amandas in the audience, can you tell us—
AMANDA: Just like the hypothetical ones.
JULIA: —the plot of The Last of Us?
JENNA: The— The Last of Us is a survival horror game in which there are zombie— it's a zombie virus, basically, but it is a slightly mushroom-themed zombie virus. So the zombies are blind, basically. They scent you with sound, and like movement, and air particles being disruptive. And so you have to spend a lot of the time basi— basically stuffing and, like, using distraction mechanics to get past them. But they are kind of just a set dressing for the Last of Us true message, which is that man is the real monster, and that humans—
AMANDA: Sure.
JENNA: —are the real threat and danger, and you have to murder a bunch of them. But then it has this weird message at the end, that's like, "Maybe murder was bad and you did a bad thing by being forced to kill all those people by how our gameplay is structured." I don't— I don't care for The Last of Us, for the record.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: That's fair. That is fair.
JENNA: And the— the Cordyceps thing is interesting, because— yeah, like, so you had this late 2000s moment where Cordyceps became a cultural phenomenon, and then naturally sort of got scooped up by a couple of horror franchises. The Last of Us is the big one, but there's also— if you've ever read or seen The Girl With All the Gifts, love it.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Yup.
JENNA: That movie is extremely good if you like zombie movies. I think it is a top tier zombie movie.
AMANDA: Ooh.
JULIA: And the short story is very good as well. I— I very much enjoy it. There's also another one that uses Cordyceps as a like zombie virus stand-in and it's the— the Ghost Woods by C.J. Cooke.
JENNA: Oh.
JULIA: So also another one, I would say like if that's a topic that you enjoy, go for that. For people who— I like— I took notes on Cordyceps because I think it's a really interesting, like, type of mushroom, and it is something that definitely feeds into this type of horror that we see now in— in the modern day. But they're— like you mentioned, they're a endoparasitoid, which is basically like it's parasitic for insects. It will basically manipulate host behavior to facilitate the transmission of spores, example includes nest abandonment of hosts, the phenomenon known as the death grip, in which the host hangs under leaves upside down and clamps themselves onto the leaves with their mandibles and self-exposure to predators for greater transmission of other hosts. And fun fact for you, Cordyceps is not the only type of mushroom that does this.
JENNA: Yeah, why would it be?
JULIA: They're— no. There's another one that's called a Massospora, which specifically infects cicadas and turns them into— these are great quotes, quote, "Flying salt shakers of death," and quote, "Single-minded sex machines." So basically, they— they are tripping on mushrooms and get very horny, and they find other cicadas to mate with, and they're able to spread the fungus to additional hosts through mating.
JENNA: Hilarious to imply that cicadas are not alway— already pretty focused on mating.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Thank you.
JENNA: But this is important because it's like— up until this moment, what mushrooms meant for us culturally were like a food that could kill you through poison.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And now, you—
AMANDA: Right.
JENNA: —suddenly have this— this other thing that mushrooms can do, which is take over your mind and make you do weird things.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And in horror, that latched on to zombie media. So that's— I mean, that's what The Girl With All the Gifts, and that's what Last of Us were. They were pre exi— like they were— it was zombie media that they just kind of added this flair of mushroom to— to give it a little bit of a different aesthetic, but they're just mushroom. They're just zombie things.
AMANDA: Now, do you think this is a total reach or— in my mind, I'm really seeing this as complementary with the sort of. like, late '90s, into early 2000s fear of like hacking, corruption, viruses, Zoll also growing out of HIV AIDS, denial of the epidemic, and then the epidemic. And so I— I wonder if this idea of like, you know, you being corrupted, of like your brain of your nervous center being, you know, injected or taken over has any kind of like cultural resonance.
JULIA: Yeah. I— I think absolutely. I think you've made some great points in terms of, like, pivotal moments that probably reached towards what that— that kind of horror is coming from. I also think that there is a certain aspect of, like, you know, like the American individuality aspect of horror sometimes. It's like the idea of like—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —"Oh, you're all turning into sheep, and I'm the only one who, like, really is, like, by myself out here on an island." And there is something about the, like, sort of connectedness of mushrooms. Like, we talked about, like, mushroom networks and mycelial networks and stuff like that. And the— they also, like, play with that a little bit in The Last of Us, this idea that there is like a connection between all of the mushroom infected people, as part of this mycelium network.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And like mushroom as like cult, or community, or connection, I think is another aspect of horror that is not as often played with, but is also very interesting.
JENNA: No. And I think fundamentally, my complaint about most mushroom horror is that it's just— it is just a reskin of zombies, but you do have all of these other—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: —interesting aspects. And I— I always find it frustrating because it's like— I think there's something really potent about the idea of a fungus getting into your brain and making you do weird things that are—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: —contrary to your survival in order to— to get its survival to go through. And that is very rarely how it's actually used in these— in these kinds of media. And so it's always a little bit of a disappointment to me, again, just like, "That's so creepy."
JULIA: Yeah.
JENNA: It's so creepy, just do that.
JULIA: I know. Yes. 100%.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Or like just playing more into the hive mind mentality. Like, one of my favorite types of horror is like, oh, you know, I've been infected by this thing, and now I am losing myself to the greater—
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: —network, the greater mind—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —the greater hive.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah, just like the base human fear, Julia.
JULIA: Which is like, "Oh, but— but I'm supposed to be—"
AMANDA: Just like, yeah, that one.
JULIA: "—an individual with my own thoughts and feelings. And how do I fight against this idea of like, oh, now, I'm like being forced to become part of something?
JENNA: Yeah. Yeah. And I think video game— so let's continue with video games.
JULIA: Yes, please.
JENNA: Because it— we got to build on this which is like—
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JENNA: So you have— you have the zombie mode and like Resident Evil is interesting because they have been virus-based zombies basically for forever. And then with— I think it was with— with seven—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: I think Resident Evil VII, one of the really recent ones. They introduced this concept of mold, black mold.
JULIA: And you're like, "Come on."
JENNA: That's the thing, that's your zombie now. And so like that is the mode in which resonate— which is really funny because it happened just before the pandemic, and so I was just like, "Ah!"
JULIA: Oh, no. Timing.
AMANDA: Tell me more.
JENNA: So I think that— I just think that's really funny. But it was this thing where it was, like, culturally, we kind of got bored of virus-based infection stories, and so we transition to mushroom-based virus stories.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And then some other stuff happened anyway. So you have that, but you also have— so you have like this new emergent way of thinking about mushrooms, which is the horror mode. But I think you also have— since the Cordyceps thing, and since there was also a news moment for what's the largest organism in the world? And it's a mushroom network. It's a massive mushroom network.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And so you had these two things emerged, and then there's this— there's this a very Tumblr-based meme that I am particularly fond of, which is, "You cannot kill me in a way that matters."
JULIA: Uh-hmm
JENNA: And that is such a— it is a mushroom-based concept and it's such a— there's a very interesting thing that I think came about almost concurrent with cottagecore, which makes it— a lot of use of mushroom imagery.
JULIA: Yes.
JENNA: And like these— these quaint, little adorable mushrooms going about their business. So you have all of these other threads that I think pre-exist the horror aspect. But then you see in indie games now— and this is something— I— because I live stream a lot of indie games, and it has become a slogan in my streams, "become mushroom," because so many indie—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JENNA: —games let you become mushrooms not as a scary, horror aspect, but as like a— an extension of nature or an extension of like a sci-fi or fantasy reality. And the best example I can provide is Citizen Sleeper.
JULIA: Hmm.
JENNA: Which has just a remarkable and very, very interesting sci-fi setting, where you are basically a robot that has had your mind programmed into it, like you're a copy of an original.
JULIA: Okay.
JENNA: And there—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JENNA: —is a pathway that you can follow where you make friends with some mycologists, and they let you basically upload your consciousness to mushrooms, and you become part of a mushroom colony.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And that is such a remarkable extent aspect of this that you're describing, Julia, of like this sort of cult energy, but, like, what if it's not a cult? What if it's a community? And what if there's a difference between a repressive culture that we perceive as like a foreign cult, or a foreign community, or a foreign military? What if this is the nice version of that? Which is that we're all interconnected and we all like each other.
JULIA: What if communication was easier between your fellow human beings?
JENNA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: What if being a part of a community is nice?
AMANDA: And your survival was interdependent.
JULIA: Yes.
JENNA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: Now, this is also really cool, because this reminds me of the Hannibal episode. I don't know if you watched Hannibal, Jenna, the— the television series.
JENNA: A little bit, not all of it.
JULIA: There was a great episode in which a guy is basically like using human beings to grow mushrooms, right? He's like— has a mushroom farm, he's using— not cadavers, like living human beings that he has, like, half buried in the ground. It's— it's scary, very scary. However—
AMANDA: Jenna takes note, looking that later.
JULIA: —however, like the whole point of— Hannibal in general, like, loves to kind of, like, muse on the idea of like, "Well, what is beautiful to one person is actually horrific to another and vice versa." And so the killer who is harvesting these— these human mushrooms basically is like, "I just think that I'm able to make connections to these people better, because now they're part of this mushroom network and they can connect." And you're like, "Wow, that's beautiful, but also terrible, and you didn't ask these people. And, like, there's no, like, consent involved in this, whatsoever." However, I think that is also like what we're—we're talking about, where it's like— you know, this is something that could be, like, really beautiful and really meaningful, however, it can be twisted in a way that is terrifying to other people. It just really depends on, like, your mind and, like, what you're striving for. You know what I mean? So I— I love the idea that, like, what one horror or is another is beauty. And so in this video game like, oh, being able to connect to other people is actually a boon and not something horrific.
JENNA: Yeah. And I— I think this is— this is such an interesting example of how horror inherently reflects cultural anxieties at the moment. And you— you can sit down and engage with a piece of mushroom-based horror and be like, "Yup, mushrooms. Weird, huh?"
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And then come away with it with not much else, and that's totally fine. It functions well in that way. But then you can also pull out and be like, "Well, we're in this interesting moment where, like, the—the individualism of capitalism is being challenged by, like, this rise of— of a different understanding of what socialism means, or what communism means, and, like, what being a part of a group or a community means, as opposed to being an individualist and— and grindy and sort of like trying to be the person at the top of the pile, not realizing that there's a lot of people in a group below you. And so I— that's what this— these stories are about. They're about recognizing that you're a part of a community, and maybe that's a good thing.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah. And, like, again, I think it is this kind of transition away from, like, "The American individuality. And I'm always going to be my own person, and that's what makes me great as a person." And being like, "No, actually, it's kind of good when we all come together and create, like, a— a social network for each other, and like a, you know, a way of supporting one another through connection and, like, actual care for other beings, you know?
JENNA: Yeah. And I— I see this— you see this also with the— there's this— another meme that I think is relevant to it, that you just made me think of, which is the, "To be loved is to be changed."
JULIA: Hmm.
JENNA: And I—
AMANDA: Hmm.
JENNA: —I think it usually gets shown with like— I think there was an art exhibit that was like, "Here's a stuffed animal that had been loved for decades. Here's what it looked like originally."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: And it's the side by side. And it's like the— the one that had been loved for a while, it's pretty— they're always dirty and scrambled up.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
JENNA: But it's like— that's nice. It's nice that that has happened to this thing that it was loved for so much that it— it had these things happen to it. And this idea that our communities change us, and our friends, and our loved ones change us is nice, maybe.
JULIA: Yeah.
JENNA: Maybe we don't have to be individuals?
JULIA: Right. And like change is not
necessarily—
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: —a bad thing, which is really interesting. Brings me back to the Annihilation movie, which I will say I'm a fan of, again, like very different from the book. And if you really liked the book, you might not like the movie. But this idea that, like, love is what kind of brings the main character to this place that is inherently changing her, and she is searching for her loved one who has also been inherently changed. And there is something like beautiful but terrifying about that. And, like, do you embrace that change, or do you fight against it?
JENNA: Yeah. And that's, I think, one of the biggest questions that we must deal with as human beings on this Earth.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Absolutely. I— I think that's really interesting. I also— I feel like we should talk about like the— the psychedelic horror of mushrooms, because I think there are a lot of, like, mushroom horrors that deal with the idea of like, "Mushrooms make you trip sometimes." Like, '60s on, we've realized like, "Hey"— or at least in popular culture, "Mushrooms can make you trip and have psychedelic experiences and stuff like that." I think that there is something that is played with often in mushroom horror, which is like your perceived reality is not what it actually is, and that's what's scary about mushrooms, right?
JENNA: Yes. You basically never see that in video games, so it's hard for me to comment on. It is— yeah.
JULIA: The example that I'm thinking of, at least, is a book I would recommend to everyone, which is Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia, which is basically like— it is a gothic novel set in Mexico, but it's basically, like, fungi and mold are kind of representing this one family's like corruption and deterioration. It's like infesting the house, but also the minds of the inhabitants. And it's like all of the, like, gothic horror ghosts that you kind of usually talk about in— in gothic horror, are part of the like hallucinogenic properties that are happening within this house.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's a really good sort of symbol for the idea that like the rot you can see is the sort of tip of the iceberg. That the rot you can see sort of belies how much rot is underneath, socially, psychically, you know, in a family culture, and that's why I think it's such a— a potent symbol in Mexican gothic.
JULIA: There's a great book, not a novel, but just a— a nonfiction book called Entangled Life by— I think it's Merlin Sheldrake if I'm— if I remember correctly. Great name, by the way.
JENNA: Yeah. Incredible.
JULIA: The only reason I kind of remember that.
AMANDA: I was like, "Whoa. Say it again."
JULIA: He talks about the situation where he's— it's like almost like a real, like, abandoned gothic home. And he's going through the house and he's pointing out, like, all of the, like, mold and mushrooms that he can find in there. And he points to the— I believe it was like the oven in the house. He says, "See the, like, the mold in there, how it's fruited." And the— the person who's talking to is like, "Yes, of course." He's like, "We can follow that entire trail, like, that's where that fruited, but like, you know, miles and miles of mold lead to that. It's in the walls, it's ingrained itself in there. And that's just what you can see. If we tore down this wall, you would see all of it spread throughout this entire house." But I love that idea, Amanda of like, the iceberg as horror, where it's like, yeah, that's only what you can see, but it's so much more— it's so much more present. And I think, in general, like horror really loves playing with that idea of like that's what you can see, but there's so much more beyond it.
AMANDA: Yeah. Jenna, how— this might be like a very big question or the subject of someone's thesis, but like, how is death treated in horror? I'm sure the answer is every single way, but I am— I'm wondering here specifically from— from Julia's, you know, retelling of Merlin's wonderful passage that like, you know, I think mushrooms and mold interest us because it is— it is like deathless, right? Like, you— you can't kill me ultimately. You can't really eradicate it. And I think there is something about, like, an ultimate human desire to be like subsumed or consumed that to me sort of dovetails with, like, the human death drive. And so this is all, like, very heady way to say, I think there is some kind of comfort and like immortality in being consumed and subsumed into something bigger. And so especially in a survival horror game, the genre that I don't play, but I have, like, learned more and more about as I get to know your work, and just knowing things that Julia loves to do. Where, like, you die so often? I don't know. Like, how does your relationship with death in the game play out? What— what are your emotions after dying over and over again in a video game?
JENNA: It's different. It— it is so much different in a video game, because when you die in a video game, it means you've done something wrong, and this is a learning experience, and so it just doesn't have— it— they call them deaths. They're not deaths in any way. And they're— sometimes games will treat them symbolically as such. Like, I think Hades is a good example, where it is—it is more of a death, like that's the whole drive of roguelikes, is that they are more death than death usually is. But I— I want to circle back to the mushroom shit post on Tumblr that I referenced.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JENNA: Because the— you cannot kill me in a way that matters, there's a line later on that shit post that is something like death or decay— I think it's, "Decay is an excellent form of life."
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JENNA: And that is such a— also an inherent part of this idea of what mushrooms mean to us, because it's like, you're becoming something different, and like the— this idea of, like, individualism extends so deeply in our culture that, like, you're expected to be fully preserved and in a secret little box that worms— like decay is not supposed to get to you in your grave—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: —because you're special, and your body has to remain whole and separate from the Earth. And that's such a— it's not an idea that is necessarily present in every belief system or every culture. And the degree to which people— I think this is especially something that has changed in— in our culture, is this idea of having like a natural burial or like being composted.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: I— I think that's a—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: —lovely idea of like this return to loam as being a natural step in your progress of having been created on this planet. And so I do think there is something to say about that comforting aspect. I don't necessarily think that's present in horror, because if it were, it would be treated as something horrifying, which is why you have like the— the Clickers in The Last of Us being an upsetting image.
AMANDA: Thank you for spending something cogent out of my little spew.
JULIA: I thought it was a great question.
AMANDA: It did— did, too, remind me that we call respawning, respawning in video games, right? Like the— the— the spore—
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: —respawns and we live again.
JULIA: That's a— Amanda, I never put those two things together. That's cool as hell. I love it.
AMANDA: You know, I'm— I'm here to listen enthusiastically and make surface level contributions. Stop.
JULIA: I also really love that we're talking about like, you know, the video games and sort of the immortality of video games, and it just means you made a mistake or something like that. But I think that like there is something to be said about the fact that, like, mushrooms can only really grow off of things that are dead or dying.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: And I think that is something that as human beings scares us, especially in like modern Western culture. We are afraid of death. I think that is like— we're— or at least we're uncomfortable with death.
JENNA: Not afraid enough.
JULIA: Yeah, we should maybe be more afraid of death. I don't know. Who can say? But I— I think there is something really interesting about, like, mushroom as being this part that is like, yes, you are dying, but you're giving life to something else, and something more, and something new. So I— I— I mean, that's—that's not the horror aspect, I guess, but that is something that I love when, like, horror kind of turns things into beauty and, like, the— the kind of cross between beauty and horror is— is something that I— I love to exist within when I'm consuming my media at least.
AMANDA: Jenna, are there any other notable mushrooms in video games that you want to make sure we cover?
JENNA: I— no, I don't know if there really are. I mean, obviously, there's Toad. I think the iconic mushroom of video games is like the Amanita, that red cap with the spots.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JENNA: Which I think is always so funny, because it's like that's a very poisonous mushroom. So for that to be the fun, iconic mushroom that is so often deployed in games, it's really funny to me. But I think largely because of Toad. You do have a lot of Toad human— or mushroom humanoids in video games, which I just think is fun. I don't think they're scary. I think they're cute.
JULIA: No. And they— they can be cute. And it's really funny because, like, mushroom humanoids really did not exist until, like, the 1960s, I would say. It's kind of wild that that's like— it took us so long to be like, "It'd be kind of cool/cute if we combined a person and a mushroom. Like if a mushroom was a person, that would be great." I also— I also think it's really funny because you mentioned the— the Amanita is the— the one that is kind of like quintessential in video games. They don't grow in Japan. It's like a very—
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: —distinctly European mushroom. So it's kind—
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: —of wild that they're like, "Yeah, that one." That's like, you know, foxes when they eat those and stuff like that.
JENNA: Yeah.
JULIA: Sure, why not?
JENNA: It's— it's such an interesting choice, and I would love to do a deep dive on Nintendo to be like, "Why? Miyamoto-san, why did you choose— why did you choose that mushroom?" It's such a weird choice.
JULIA: I know.
AMANDA: Listen, all I know is that I feel somewhat haunted but in a pleasant way by the images of Toad with, like, muscular, hairy legs wearing heels.
JENNA: Classic.
AMANDA: Like, I— I know that's— like I'm just— I'm here for the like gender fuckery of Toad with human legs wearing heels, I'm— I'm into it.
JULIA: And we all just want to be Toadette when we grow up. I don't know about you guys. Every time I play Mario Party, I'm like, "Man, I just want to dress like Toadette. I just want to be a girly—"
AMANDA: Toadette slaps.
JULIA: "—a little girly." Well, Jenna, I am so appreciative of you coming in here, chatting with us about horror, about video games, and more importantly about mushrooms. So thank you so, so much for joining us. And hey, tell the people where they can find your streams, find your shows, find you online.
JENNA: Well, the first thing you're gonna do is you're listening to this podcast on some sort of app.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JENNA: Go ahead and search for two shows, the first is Burnt Cookbook Party, which is my hilarious actual play show. You're gonna have a great time with that one. The other one is called Big Game Hunger. It's on the same network as Spirits, and it is a show where me and a guest every week get three random prompts and have to make a video game based on it. So those are two new podcasts for you to enjoy.
AMANDA: Incredible.
JENNA: Yeah. So you should check those out. I also do video essays, I livestream, you can find me @jennastoeber or thejenna on the internet. Just look me up. You'll find me.
JULIA: If you like our show, I'm going to drop two episodes of Big Game Hunger that I really liked, that I think most Spirits listeners will also enjoy. One is the— the Frankenstein Love Game.
JENNA: Oh, my God. With Brooke Breit. Incredible.
AMANDA: Iconic.
JULIA: Incredibly good. And then the other one was the— the cryptid dating one, I think?
JENNA: Oh, yeah, yeah. That was a great one, too.
JULIA: So if you search Frankenstein and also cryptid in your podcast app within Big Game Hunger, I think you'll be able to find those episodes, and they're great starters for our fans here on Spirits.
AMANDA: Incredible. Jenna, thank you so much for joining us and talking your biz. I feel so inspired to look at mushrooms and horror in a whole new way.
JENNA: Thank you for having me on. Don't eat mushrooms, they're gross.
JULIA: Okay. Or do eat mushrooms, and when you start becoming a human mushroom hybrid, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
JENNA: Become mushroom.
JULIA: Become mushroom.
AMANDA: Become mushroom.
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