Episode 299: Little Red Riding Hood
/The woods might be dark and full of wolves (which yes, they’re a metaphor), but together we can follow the path of the history of Little Red Riding Hood; from the oral traditions of the French peasantry, to the Brothers Grimm, and on to modern retellings.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of violence, death, lewd sexual and scatalogical humor, animal attacks, cannibalism, sexual assault, slut shaming, beheading, child abuse, birth, animal death, drowning, ageism, sexualizing minors, misogyny, and bestiality.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends A Prayer for the Crown-Shy by Becky Chambers.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Have you heard about the MultiCrew?! This is our membership program that lets you help us invest in Multitude as we try weird new stuff. Plus, you get a members-only weekly podcast: Head Heart Gut, our weekly friendly debate show. Join for as little as $5 a month at multicrew.club and get access to Head Heart Gut!
Sponsors
- Inked Gaming is your one-stop-shop for premium gaming goods. Visit inkedgaming.com/spirits and use the code: spirits when you’re ready to checkout!
- Blueland creates everyday eco-friendly cleaning productions that save you money and space, without any plastic waste. Get 20% off your first order when you go to blueland.com/spirits.
- Wildgrain is the first bake-from-frozen box for artisanal bread. For a limited time, you can get $30 off the first box - PLUS free Croissants in every box - when you go to Wildgrain.com/Spirits to start your subscription.
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 299. Julia, what are we talking about today?
JULIA: We're talking about Little Red Riding Hood today, Amanda.
AMANDA: Oooh! A classic.
JULIA: It is a classic. This was suggested by one of our researchers, Ryan and I really like when we kind of take classic fairy tales that we know and love and we do a deep dive on where they came from, what they're about, and how this is a spoiler for the rest of the episode, how the retellings [whispers] have agendas.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, there's nothing more I love.
JULIA: I know. I know. So Amanda, can you start us out? This is just to kind of gauge your knowledge of the story and our listeners to kind of remind them what the story is about. Can you tell me the vague beat-by-beat of Little Red Riding Hood?
AMANDA: Of course, I can. So Little Red Riding Hood lives on one side of the woods with her parents and her sick granny lives on the other side of the woods. And so you know, she or her parents like bake something or she gets the bread from the baker, you know, and is going to take it to her granny wearing her signature cape. And so she puts it in her basket and she takes it through the wood. She's told stick to the path. I'm forgetting what's into the woods and what is the myth itself but she gets pursued and followed by the Big Bad Wolf. When she gets to her granny's house. She thinks that she is talking to her granny and given her granny the little treats she brought, but instead, it is the Big Bad Wolf who has snuck into her granny's house and eaten her granny up, and put on her granny's nightcap and is waiting in her granny's bed and pretending to be her and then Little Red Riding Hood screams and cuts open the wolf's belly with a knife. And then the granny is free and the wolf is dead.
JULIA: Fascinating. I love, okay, so we'll get into this but I love seeing like what things remain and what things are different or similar. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Yeah. And as an adult who's not really consumed any like media or retellings about this. I just heard it as a kid and then washed Into The Woods. You know this is that's kind of where I'm at.
JULIA: Yeah, excellent. You hit a lot of the beats of the story. This is excellent. And we're going to talk about the different beats and the different retellings. But first, I think it's kind of important to start this episode by talking about the oral roots of the story be like before we get to the written versions that was recorded by like Charles Perrault and the Brothers Grimm. So the conspirators, obviously, they probably remember that Charles Perrault was the author of a bunch of other well-known fairy tales, including like Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Blue Beard, Puss in Boots, all those kinds of things.
AMANDA: Yeah, someone who worked at early Disney Animation, like got one of those books at a garage sale and is like, Ha-ha! My secret weapon.
JULIA: Ha-ha! It's all the stories. So Charles Perrault, as probably a lot of our conspirators remember, was the author of a bunch of other well-known fairy tales, like Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Blue Beard, Puss in Boots.
AMANDA: That makes me think that somebody had early animation and Disney found like a collected version of all of his stories, and it's like, Ha-ha! My career, it's right here in my hand. There it is.
JULIA: There it is. And I mean, a lot of that is just probably that person working at Disney Animation heard a lot of those stories as a child and developed them because they were stories that a lot of people knew and were telling over and over again. And that's going to be really the theme of this episode is just like, there are just some stories that we tell over and over again, and the lesson of those stories changes every time.
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: There is a scholar named Maria Tatar, who wrote a book that was called the classic fairy tale. So if you want some kind of in-depth analysis of fairy tales, definitely check that out. It's a great book. But in her chapter about Little Red Riding Hood, she stresses the importance of the story starting as an oral tradition, and I love this, quote, "Fairy tales have their roots in a peasant culture relatively uninhibited in its expressive energy. For centuries, farm laborers and household workers relied on the telling of tales to shorten the hours devoted to repetitive harvesting tasks and domestic chores. Is it surprising that in an age without radios, televisions, and other electronic wonders, they favored fast-paced narratives with heavy doses of Burlesque comedy, melodramatic action, scatological humor, and freewheeling violence."
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: I mean, what's not to love about burlesque comedy melodramatic action, scatological humor, and freewheeling violence when it comes to stories, right?
AMANDA: It's the absolute best and reminds me of when like in like early English literature classes in college, we'd be reading The Canterbury Tales, and it's like, oh, that's a dick joke. Oh, yeah. No, of course, because human beings have been entertaining each other with humor that most human beings find funny for as long as there have been stories.
JULIA: Yeah, so this episode, I'm just gonna forewarn people. There's a lot of dirty jokes in the tellings and retellings of Little Red Riding Hood. So if that is not your comedy, you might not enjoy this episode, but we are going to talk about it.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: So the original story this oral tradition was mainly told by French peasants starting around the 10th century. And then by the time that the 17th century rolled around, a version of Little Red Riding Hood could be found across most of Europe, which is very cool.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: However, usually did not have that name. Most of the stories actually referred to it as some variation of the story of grandmother.
AMANDA: Hmm, interesting.
JULIA: Yeah. And the story of grandmother has quite a few pretty major differences from the Charles Perrault and the grim version that we will be discussing later that most people know and love.
AMANDA: Lay it on me I'm so excited. I'm just realizing now how much Little Red Riding Hood as a title. Like the you know, the young girl is the the figure and the main character in my head. And like so much of society I'm probably erasing the frickin granny and let's look learn about it.
JULIA: Well to be quite honest, Amanda the cranny does not feed your super heavily in the story.
AMANDA: That's fair.
JULIA: So basically the story of grandmother the Big Bad Wolf is a half-man half-wolf werewolf type creature known as Bzou, which is B Z O U. In the story, he kills the grandmother and then tricks the little girl into eating the flesh and blood of the grandmother.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Telling her that it's meat and wine instead of blood and flesh.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: And also there's like a talking cat who is in the room and watches her eat the blood and flesh of the grandmother and then calls her a slut.
AMANDA: Oh!
JULIA: Which where does this cat get off? Slut shaming this little girl for eating the flesh of her grandmother.
AMANDA: Also have a word for that, and this cannibal not slut. You can be a slutty cannibal if you want.
JULIA: It's certainly not slut. And I don't know where slut comes from in this but-
AMANDA: Those are different behaviors. I mean, I guess like, I mean, probably there is some kind of translation about it being meaning like loose or transgressing boundaries, or, you know, there's probably some relation but that's extremely funny.
JULIA: Yes. So this story in case it's not clear, very dark, very sexual compared to the honestly, much cleaner version from Perrault of the wolf disguised as the grandmother tells the girl to join him in bed. And basically, there's almost like a strip tease kind of scene that happens here, where she's like, "Well, what do I do with my cloak?" And he's like, "Toss them in the fire." "What do I do with my dress tosses in the fire." "What do I do with my skirt?" "Toss in the fire." until she is naked, basically. And when she does, she gets into the bed with the wolf and then notices the kind of classic Little Red Riding Hood things which is like, "Oh, how hairy you are, grandmother, how long your nails are, how big your mouth is.", etc etc. Right?
AMANDA: I can see that almost like a horror movie framing of like, you know, when you watch the final girl, you know, going up the steps or checking in the closet and we know where the murderer is, I now understand the cinematic nature of a scene like that where you know, it's that repetition, it's the noticing things over and over again, it's the precipice the chance for things to go a little bit, right. And instead, they keep going wronger and wronger and wronger.
JULIA: Also, keeping in mind that this is an oral tradition. So repetition is something that is kind of a hallmark of oral storytelling because it allows the call and response. It allows the kind of flow of telling the story and having the repetition and people knowing what comes next.
AMANDA: It's inside jokes.
JULIA: Exactly. Realizing a little late that this is not her grandmother, she tells the wolf that she has to pee. And the wolf is like, "Whatever, do it in bed." and she's like, "No, no, I have to go outside and do it." And the wolf was like, "Fine, just don't take too long." Okay. So she goes outside and she just fucking bounces. right?
AMANDA: Yeah, smart.
JULIA: And the wolf, after a while has passed is just like, basically makes a poop joke asking if she's making cables instead of peeing, which is just wow.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Wow.
AMANDA: Damn. It's real kind of take my wife, "What are you doing in there?" That's so funny.
JULIA: I don't like that as-
AMANDA: I don't, but it's also so descriptive. And I kind of love it.
JULIA: Yeah, you're like, Oh, okay.
AMANDA: Oh, I get it.
AMANDA: I get it, I guess.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. I hate that as a euphemism for pooping but moving on. So when she doesn't answer, basically he realizes that she is gone and then tries to chase her home. But she arrives just as she is closing the door to her home and is now safe.
AMANDA: Why is she safe? Is there some? Is it just like there's the dwelling? Like, do we think about kind of blowing the door down in the three little pigs style?
JULIA: No, I think it's kind of this idea of oh because you're safe in your home. The, as we've talked about in many other episodes, the boundary between inside and outside safe and not safe is very much the key element to a lot of fairy tales and a lot of mythology in general because the threshold is that transitional place.
AMANDA: Gotcha.
JULIA: So he cannot trespass into the home when she has closed the door and she's now safe.
AMANDA: Thanks, Hestia.
JULIA: Thanks, Hestia. The tone of this original story, much like Maria Tatar warned us is much more violent, sexual, and dirty than the very moralizing and frankly paternalistic nature of the more well-known Perrault version of the story, which means it's time to talk about that version of the story. You know.
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: It was written in 1697. And in publishing it, Perrault kind of changed the literary tradition of the story. So he transformed it from this burlesque oral story of the peasant class to a fairy tale for the sort of upper echelon of French society. Because Perrault's fairy tales were instantly kind of a hit and were also written for the fashionable French salons and like, Perrault was kind of designing them in rewriting the stories to feature this underlining bourgeois idea of nobility being superior to the peasant class, which I'm sure won't backfire on French royalty ever in the future. It's probably fine.
AMANDA: No, no, that sounds totally sustainable. And like, definitely truce now today.
JULIA: Totally. Okay, totally fine. Not going to end up with anyone getting beheaded in the future, for sure.
AMANDA: I love this emphasis on the transformative nature of the vehicle of storytelling.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: The medium really matters and writing something down having an audience in mind like, these are not simply kind of like footnotes. It's not a neutral act to write something down to publish something to transform something from one medium to another. And it's so fascinating, and I love the analyzing this aspect of the sort of tradition of the story.
JULIA: Good news, Amanda. [singing] That's what they said this all about.
AMANDA: Hey!
JULIA: So Perrault's version of the story kind of has two very notable changes, notable points that he added. One, he gives the young girl her titular Red Hood, which she didn't have in the oral tradition. It's just a young girl, you know what I mean? Like she doesn't really have a defining trait other than being a young girl.
AMANDA: Julia, is it kind of like a reference to a hymen?
JULIA: We'll talk about that a little bit later.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: It also introduces a moral to the story that did not exist in the original oral telling. And here, I'm going to read you out Perrault's original moral, and then we can kind of go from there. So this is at the end of the story, kind of what he tacks on at the end. Here's the quote, "From this story, one learns that children, especially young girls, pretty well bred and genteel, are wrong to listen to just anyone, and it's not at all strange if a wolf ends up eating them. I say a wolf. But not all wolves are exactly the same. Some are perfectly charming, not loud, brutal, or angry, but tame, pleasant, and gentle, following young ladies right into their homes into their chambers. But watch out if you haven't learned that tame wolves are the most dangerous of all.
AMANDA: Fuck off. Oh, my God.
JULIA: Yeah, I said paternalistic and it is.
AMANDA: Wow, marry who your dad says to keep generational wealth in the hands of people we approve?
JULIA: Yes. So I mean, right away in this moral.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: I want to point out that what we just talked about were Perrault was like adding those underpinning of nobility and being well-bred to the tale. Like that's huge.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So like Little Red Riding Hood, he stresses can make a mistake, even though she comes from a good family. And it's not just those foolish peasants that can be fooled by a wolf.
AMANDA: And like this one's literally a wolf. But the handsome baker's son isn't and you know, the Be careful there too.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. This story kind of delineates an interesting shift in thought that was a result of the European Renaissance around the 1600s. So basically, it kind of incorporates John Locke's theory of tabula rasa or the blank slate concept that established that children are actually distinct beings from adults from the adults that are raising them and therefore need to be nurtured in order to be formed into the adult that they'll become, which is like a wild concept to add to this story.
AMANDA: It is one of my favorite things that I learned this is very literary and like meta-textual, which I, you know, is my absolute jam. And also the kinds of stuff that I remember and loved best in college, which included one of my professors sort of specialized in like the invention of childhood.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: You have childhood as a period where you're training for adulthood where a kid is impressionable where they have you know, autonomy and their needs have to be shaped this morphs into the kind of like really paternalistic focus on like it starts all the way from pregnancy, right? And like ties into that magical babies episode of pregnant people's bodies and habits and thoughts even as like as forming this like totally impressionable blank slate child versus I think the reality of like, you kind of get the kid you get and you can do your best and every kid is unique and oh, gosh, so much here.
JULIA: Yeah. So obviously Perrault would disagree with what you said.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Where you just get the key you get so that's why this moral is so important to him because while the earlier story, the oral tradition the girl outsmarts, the wolfman and then moves on with her life with no deeper thought about like the violence that she experienced.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Perrault is convinced rightfully so that like such an experience would shape the young girl in Little Red Riding Hood.
AMANDA: Yeah, it is so interesting from this period through to like the Satanic Panic and the sort of like, it's shaping of the internet and the policing of the internet for kids, that we skirt so close to like recognizing and nurturing children's experiences, and to desires and autonomy. And it is so hard for us as adults and as a society to both recognize that like kids have needs and desires of their own and shouldn't be ruled by them but should also listen to them. Like it is so interesting. Like the Satanic Panic was so close to being like maybe if kids are traumatized, we should do something about it. And instead of like getting kids in therapy, they're like, no, no, police all nursery schools like it's so close. So close!
JULIA: Ugh, so close to what it could have been. Could have been right.
AMANDA: So close. I know.
JULIA: Anyway, it's really interesting, because Perrault also, besides kind of focusing on this experience and the morality tale, he also focuses on her beauty, which he refers to her in the story as the prettiest creature that was ever seen, and also focuses on her naivete, which I think is something that a lot of people also focus on when they're talking about this story. So Perrault's little red gives the wolf time to go and eat the grandmother because she's so unworried about rushing to her grandmother's house and she like in the story quote, "Takes a roundabout way entertaining herself by gathering nuts running after butterflies and gathering bouquets of little flowers."
AMANDA: That's true. It's like don't you want to let her be a kid? Like why does she have to be a good citizen and worker and you know, like, stick to the clock here?
JULIA: She's not learning morals, Amanda. She has to learn morals and if she allows herself to just be lackadaisical, then she'll be lackadaisical for the rest of her life. She won't grow out of her childhood.
AMANDA: Oh, no. Oh, no. And then how will she be somebody's mother, Julia?
JULIA: Exactly. Much like the original tale in Perrault's version, the girl gets into bed with the Big Bad Wolf, again putting herself at risk. But unlike the original oral tale, Perrault, Little Red is actually eaten and this is where Perrault kind of comes in and tells the audience his moral which is never trust a wolf. But you're probably thinking at this point, you're like but Julia, like every time I've heard this story, Little Red Riding Hood survives the tale, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And you would be right because that ending the story wasn't added until it was adapted by the Brothers Grimm.
AMANDA: Oh, where they're like good tale needs to be grimmer.
JULIA: Good tale, but what if?
AMANDA: What if everybody died?
JULIA: Well, she survived in the Brothers Grimm version.
AMANDA: Okay. What if she survives grossly?
JULIA: Yes, exactly. And we'll get to that gross ending as soon as we get back from a refill.
AMANDA: Oh, what a cliffhanger. Let's go!
[theme]
JULIA: Hey, this is Julia, and welcome to the refill. This is my favorite time of year the end of summer going into the beginning of fall because one, I can still do all of my favorite summer activities. But two, I can look forward to dressing more fall-y and in layers and the weather's not as hot and it is great. And I bet that our newest patrons, Jacqueline and Lyle, Suburban Cryptid also love this time of year because I mean, why wouldn't you, right? And we are so grateful that they are joining the ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Iron Havoc, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi and of course, our legend level patrons who are always perfectly in the time of season that they love, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Clara, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty. And if you would like to join these incredible patrons and get stuff like bonus content, bonus urban legends episodes, and of course recipe cards for each and every dang episode, you can sign up at our Patreon at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And let me tell you a little secret, there might be some exciting new changes happening to our Patreon keep an eye out for them. And if you are looking for something to enjoy while you're enjoying this transition of seasons, I would recommend A Prayer for the Crown-Shy by Becky Chambers. Now I think I recommended the first book in the series a while back when it first came out which was A Psalm for the Wild‑Built but if you want kind of a short meditation on what makes humanity and finding one's purpose and whether or not we have time to rest a he has know how much I love Becky Chambers definitely check it out. That is A Prayer for the Crown-Shy by Becky Chambers. I also think that you should check out more Multitude shows. But if you've already caught up on all of the Multitude shows great news, we also make a weekly debate show featuring all of our hosts called Head Heart Gut. Every month, we take an iconic set of three items from pop culture or the world we live in, and we pit them against each other. In the first three weeks, each of our contestants will present their choice answering the questions on our definitive survey of greatness. And then in week four, each contestant participates in a formal debate with a judge. Now you might be saying, Julia, didn't I just listen to this? Because it was dropped in the Spirits feed yesterday? Yes, you did. And if you haven't done that, this is your chance to go listen to it. It's great. I'm in that episode, I speak very passionately about how Balto is the greatest dog ever. And there's also a buck wild defense of a like potentially murderous dolphin, which you really need to listen to. Head Heart Gut is exclusively for members of the Multicrew, which is our membership program that helps support all of Multitude. And if you want a preview of the show, you can search for Head Heart Gut in your podcast app for sample episodes, where you can listen to eight episodes for free. Again, search Head Heart Gut in your podcast player for a Head haircuts sample and see what the Multicrew has been loving for years.
JULIA: And now a word from our sponsors. Listen, were you one of those people who tried to make bread a couple of years ago who got like really into sourdough starter, and then it just kind of all fell on the wayside as you know the world happened. But even if you have kind of fallen off the wayside with your sourdough starter, we can all agree that there is nothing better than like hot, fresh, delicious baked bread, right? What if I told you you can get all the flavor of a delicious sourdough bread with none of the time and work involved? Well, you can with Wild Grain. So Wild Grain is the first bake from Frozen box for artisanal bread. Plus, they have amazing rolls and pastries and even handmade pastas. I made some with some homemade pesto the other day, it was incredible. Every item bakes from frozen in 25 minutes or Less plus for every new member wild green donates six meals to the greater Boston Food Bank and they've donated over 120,000 meals so far. I love my Wild Grain box. I love baking a fresh bread when I have guests over or I had these like little dessert peach pastries that I made when I had people over for dessert the other day and they were so freakin good. And if you're hungry, which I know I am for a limited time you can get $30 off your first box plus free croissants in every box. Did I mention how delicious the croissants are? You can go to wildgrain.com/spirits To start your subscription. You heard me right free croissants in every box and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgrain.com/spirits That's wildgrain.com/spirits or you can use promo code Spirits at checkout. We're also sponsored this week by Blueland. Now if you're like me, every time I throw something away or throw something into my Recycle Bin I'm like oh that's a lot of I'm really like I'm throwing out a lot of stuff. I really shouldn't be throwing out this much stuff and it stresses me out a little bit but luckily I haven't been throwing out as many plastic bottles since I started using Blueland and Blueland is on a mission to eliminate single-use plastics by reinventing Home Essentials that are good for you and for the planet. They use this innovative tablet refill solution that takes up 10 times less space than a traditional bottle and their powerful formulas will keep your home clean and smelling amazing. The idea is super simple, you grab one of their beautiful forever bottles which are like seriously beautiful Instagrammable gorgeous you fill it with warm water you drop in the tablet and you get cleaning the refills only start at $2 and you don't have to buy a new plastic bottle every time you run out. You can even get a subscription so you never run out of the products you use the most and you can save more when you buy in bulk. I highly recommend checking out their clean Essentials Kit which gives you everything you need to get started and they all have these incredible refreshing signature scents like Iris agave, that's my personal favorite fresh lemon, eucalyptus mint and for a limited time with their hands so got a summer upgrade with these three refreshing new scents strawberry rhubarb delicious citrus patchouli and coconut palm I love. They sent these smells to us and oh my god, I really liked the citrus Patchouli that is just totally my smell highly recommended. It makes cleaning fun, which I never thought I would say right now you can get 15% off your first order when you go to blueland.com/spirits. That's 15% off your first order of any Blueland products at blueland.com/spirits. blueland.com/spirits. We are also sponsored by Inked Gaming, which is a trusted supplier of premium gaming goods that serves as a one-stop shop for customers all over the world. Their collection is full of top-quality items and supplies like play mats, mouse pads, board games, dice sets, day totes, deck boxes, sleeves, trading cards and so much more. They even offer custom items and they can be personalized with unique designs and artwork and it's really, really cool They also have a huge selection of products that feature pre-designed artwork, which are sent in by these really gifted artists from around the world. And each artist that's part of the community receives commissions for any product sold that their work is printed on. It's a great way to both support local artists and get cool and beautiful art for your gaming supplies. So if you're planning on doing some shopping for some fresh gaming gear to add to your collection, we highly recommend Inked Gaming and as a sponsor of Spirits Inked Gaming has gifted us a nice perk that we're happy to offer our listeners, how does a 10% off discount sound for you? All you have to do is visit inkedgaming.com/spirits and use the code Spirits when you're ready to checkout again, that's inkedgaming.com/spirits, and use the code Spirits when you're ready to checkout for 10% off, check it out. Thanks Inked Gaming. And finally, now a word from our sponsor BetterHelp. There are a lot of ways that you can support a healthy brain and we all want a healthy brain, right? You could learn a new language, you could take power naps, I'm a big fan of that power nap in case you didn't know. And there's also therapy specifically BetterHelp online therapy. Now I have been doing online therapy for a very long time now. And honestly, it's almost relaxing in a way to like be able to just tell someone about my problems and have them tell you like yeah, you're not alone in this, this is a totally normal thing that you're experiencing. And knowing that someone understands the things that are going on in my brain is extremely helpful. And I think that you could benefit from some BetterHelp online therapy as well. They offer phone, video, and even live chat-only therapy sessions. So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. And it is much more affordable than in-person therapy. You can get matched with a therapist in under 48 hours, you can very easily change your therapist if you need to, which is not the case in most real-world therapy sessions. And right now our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That is better H E L P.com/spirits. And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: So Amanda for our Little Red Riding Hood, I decided much like the innocent and naive little red riding hood when she's out picking berries and nuts and shit on the way to her grandma's house. I thought a berry-flavored Margarita with a beautiful bright red color would be perfect. So I made us these strawberry margaritas.
AMANDA: They are so delicious. And what a good time of year to use the end of strawberry season.
JULIA: Yeah, you gotta get those ones when they're just a little bit more tart than sweet. And then I think they're a really good addition to a margarita because if you like get the overripe ones that are a little too sweet, then your whole Margarita ends up being too sweet. And then you just like wake up with a hangover and that's not fun for anyone.
AMANDA: Yeah, here's the thing too often just do tequila, soda, a lot of lime, and then middle of fruit. It's great.
JULIA: Yeah, you don't have to add the Cointreau. You don't have to necessarily add lime juice. I think lime juice does kind of make a margarita in my personal opinion.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But you know, classic recipes are classic for a reason. But that doesn't mean we can't spark joy in our lives.
AMANDA: Julia, does that have any thematic tie-in to our whole episode today?
JULIA: You know what? I haven't thought about it, yeah, probably.
AMANDA: Re-mixing, right? Adapting. Sure, sure. Yeah. Love it.
JULIA: Absolutely. Speaking of adapting, we're going to fast forward from the French bourgeois Perrault version in 1697 to the 1812 version, when the Brothers Grimm first published their version of Little Red Riding Hood. So where Perrault was like, hey, Little Red Riding Hood fucked up by trusting this wolf and kind of did that to herself victim blaming. The Brothers Grimm go even further with that. And we're like, oh, she's responsible for her fate because she defied her mother.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: Because this version of the tale, Amanda in case you can't guess the story starts by saying do not run off the path or you may fall and break the bottle and then your grandmother will get nothing. This is the mother speaking to Little Red Riding Hood being like, hey, don't do that. Don't do that bad things will happen.
AMANDA: Was it medicine? She's bringing was it wine? What was in the bottle?
JULIA: Like it's wine. It's usually like I'm bringing like wine and stuff to my grandmother.
AMANDA: Yeah. Which people just drink like water because water was bad.
JULIA: Yeah, water was bad. We didn't know how to make water good back then.
AMANDA: We didn't know that. No.
JULIA: So of course, we know Little Red does run off the path. But in this version of the story, rather than breaking a bottle, she runs into a, it is like very, very strongly stressed in the Grimm version that children need to listen to their parents. And part of this shift in morality of the story had to do with the rise of romanticism around the time that the Brothers Grimm were publishing in and the fact that their background was in German folktales, right? So their focus on fairy tales was part of an effort on the Brothers Grimms part of culture making and kind of their methodology became the basis of folklore studies. So a lot of times when we are looking at how scholars look at folktales it is through the folklore studies and the basis that the Grimm Brothers created it.
AMANDA: I always love when you see people try to like gather and shape their fields. Like my [30:12] did it for rabbinic, like Talmud study was just like, hey, here's what's been happening over the last 600 years. I'm kind of like write it all down interpreted for you. And now six years later, we're still quoting him.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And it's the same for the Grimm like they're cataloging and rewriting and making organized organizing, I guess would be the version of that, that I wanted to say of their fields is just like, again, gathering and presenting and labeling is a transformative technology and it is not ever neutral how we decide to categorize and order things.
JULIA: Yes, and that's a great point, Amanda. Because their moral functions kind of differ from Perrault's because they're trying to introduce a new value to German society to be read into this tale. And that's how they start categorizing and then retelling these fairy tales that they're collecting. So they also added a different ending to this, which is kind of the one that you gave at the beginning of this episode, which is that the grandmother and little red are both swallowed by the wolf, but then they are freed from the stomach of the wolf by-
AMANDA: Oh, I forgot the hunter.
JULIA: Yeah, the passing woods, man who cuts open the stomach of the wolf with his axe, and they just kind of spill out of them, like the rebirth of the Olympian gods out of Kronos, basically.
AMANDA: Yeah, no, I never put together the kind of like gory but chaste mix of that, like it's very cartoonish violence, where you're like, Oh, yes, the, you know, the stomach opens like a zipper. and out they come, you know, none the worse.
JULIA: There's also some interpretations of that version of the story being a kind of corrupted birth thing. And the idea of men as birth givers, which again, is a complicated way of reading into the story given that, like, gender and birth are not necessarily aligned with each other. But it's, there's just a lot of different versions that can be read in a lot of different ways.
AMANDA: No, it's really interesting. There's like a then hyper-masculine midwife, essentially, you know, for this birthing out of a male wolf. That's kind of Freudian shit that scholars love. You know, like, I'm curious what all those interpretations are, and I'm gonna dive in after this episode.
JULIA: Yeah. And we'll talk a little bit more about a couple of them at the end of the episode, so that'll be fun.
AMANDA: Hooray.
JULIA: The Grimm Brothers actually added an epilogue to some versions of the tale, I think mainly in their republished tale, which I believe happened like five or six years after their first published tale. But they added this epilogue in which a Little Red is like, once again, bothered by another wolf on the way to her grandmother's after the first wolf. But this time she's like on her guard, and she and the grandmother actually choose to use cooked sausages to lure the wolf into a trap and then drown him.
AMANDA: Oh, okay.
JULIA: So, they're like we're getting our revenge. We don't care if you're a different Wolf.
AMANDA: Damn. Okay.
JULIA: Which, I also think that we'll talk a little bit about Sondheim's version for Into The Woods of little read a little later. But I think that's Sondheim did a very good job of being like, this girl is now prepared to kill anything now that she has gone through this extremely traumatic experience.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Yeah, it's super important when we are discussing the three origins of the stories because it does allow us to understand the different functions of these different versions. But of course, there are other historical versions, or at least versions of these tales that perhaps evolved into what would become Little Red Riding Hood, right? So for example, there was a story that was published by a French priest in 1024.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Called this is Latin forgive me for my pronunciation.
AMANDA: Julia, no one knows how it's supposed to be. Don't apologize.
JULIA: De puella a lupellis seruata.
AMANDA: Okay, I hear I hear seruata which means jacket, and lupellis, which means wolf?
JULIA: Yes, I think so. So basically, this was a Latin poem based on a local folk tale that the priest broke down. So in the story, a girl wanders into the woods wearing a read baptismal tunic.
AMANDA: Oh, I didn't know we did read baptismal tunics.
JULIA: Apparently, but this was given to her by her godfather, a will find her, takes her back to its lair, and is getting ready to eat her, but she manages to escape by taming the wolf's pups.
AMANDA: Oh, interesting.
JULIA: Another version is a story called The Wolf and kids that was a [34:34] Fable first recorded in 400 AD. So this is an interesting one, because it was first recorded in 400 AD, but we don't have a lot of like fully realized and translated versions. So this one is kind of, I think, again, kind of Grimm Fairy Tales, in that the moral or the details were changed in order to get a point across
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: But in this version of the story, a mother warns her children how to spot a wolf. Right? She's like Okay, so if you're looking for a wolf, you have to look for black paws if you see black paws that's a wolf. And therefore like get away because it's going to eat you. The wolf overhears the mother warning the children about this and so hides his black paws by covering them in flour.
AMANDA: Ah, nice.
JULIA: Yes. And in the story he swallows all of the children but when the mother finds the wolf sleeping after his large meal because he got too tired like after a Thanksgiving dinner.
AMANDA: Oh yeah.
JULIA: She cuts him open and all of her children emerge on hurt because quote in his greed the monster head swallowed them down whole.
AMANDA: Oh, nice teaching kids to really bite their food.
JULIA: Yes. Really got to chew that food don't swallow. Like the little bitey greedy wolf. They then at the end of that story, fill his stomach with stones and then throw him down the well where he drowns.
AMANDA: Julia, what is it with we had to an episode on drowning sometimes because people in the past obsessed with drowning in small bodies of water, just with it.
JULIA: Big fans of drowning. Huge.
AMANDA: My version of this watch ever was black pause thing as a kid. My mom taught me all about riptides. Because she is a lifeguard and we grew up on the ocean.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: That's, that's what I had to know about.
JULIA: Yeah, you're like, Oh, you see that? See how the water is very calm in the middle. That's not good.
AMANDA: Yeah, just relax. Let it go swim parallel to shore.
JULIA: Exactly. Exactly. Don't try to swim in. It's just gonna look out further.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: There's also a Chinese folktale that is very similar to the story of Little Red Riding Hood, which is called The Grandmother Tiger.
AMANDA: Ooh, tell me about her.
JULIA: Features really similar elements basically the same story almost to a tee. But with a tiger. The children also get into bed. There's two children this point an older sister and a younger brother, they get into bed with this big bad Tiger who's impersonating their grandmother. And much like the oral tradition, the little girl manages to escape because she says she needs to pee, and then gets outside and runs away.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: But her younger brother is eaten by the tiger, who is in turn eaten by two other tigers.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: I believe the story is they see her and she's still disguised as the grandmother.
AMANDA: Ah.
JULIA: And so they're like, oh, a grandmother and then they eat the other Tiger.
AMANDA: And there's a kind of Tiger-child turducken going on.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. What would that be? Tige-?
AMANDA: Tigboy.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. I put boy at the end there. But, that's good.
AMANDA: Tige-boy. Tiged is just an adjective so-
JULIA: Tiged. It's funny. Oh, god. What's interesting about looking at all of these different versions of Little Red Riding Hood and later retellings of the story is kind of what elements are retained and what themes are shifted to highlight the let's be honest agenda of the person who's telling the story, right?
AMANDA: Yeah, even if you don't know you have an agenda. You are upholding the society that had an agenda when raising you unless you decide to identify it, interrupt it, and rewrite it with something better.
JULIA: Exactly. 100%. For example, sexuality. In Little Red Riding Hood is often highlighted in a lot of retellings. There's a song by Alfred Pace Randolph from 1926 called How Could Red Riding Hood and then in parentheses have been so very good and still keep the wolf from the door.
AMANDA: What!?
JULIA: So here's the lyrics that I want to highlight. Why was she dressed up in her bright flaming red? Unless she was expecting to knock someone dead?
AMANDA: NO!
JULIA: Why did she ramble, she knew ‘twas a gamble. She was out in the woods for no good. They say she was a maid most discreet, but there's nothing to doubt about it. She must have been sweet. But you know, and I know that even sweet girls must eat.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: So the implication is basically little red is engaging in sex work.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Which like is fine. Obviously. We're cool with that. We are like sexualizing a young girl and like that is a huge part of that.
AMANDA: Yeah, not great, mate. I mean, maybe the song is like You go girl, but that element is still true.
JULIA: Right. So like, it's really interesting too. Because like, even though Perrault and then the Grimm Brothers tried their darndest to remove the sexual features of the original oral tale-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -they didn't remove it from its entirety in the public consciousness like it remains absolutely like the same in a lot of retellings of the story, right? Like, little red is almost undoubtedly tied to like a burgeoning sexual awakening-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -in most retellings of the story.
AMANDA: I mean, there is no sort of like object that society loves to project fears and desires onto like a young woman.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And no matter like even the act of trying desperately to sanitize and desexualize a story still speaks of the underlying fear right and like need like you're still getting away from something even if where you end up is really sort of aesthetic and desexualized and stripped down because you know, people go that way or because the tail in previous incarnations is like that.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Oh, man. Like there is just the idea of a little girl alone in the Big Bad woods like it There's a reason why it's so iconic.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And I think even without this particular image of this story, there would be something like it. And this underlies so many other tales and and just morality sort of exercises that we grew up with.
JULIA: Absolutely. It's really, really interesting. There's a couple of other like examples that I want to tell you about. One is this MGM cartoon from 1943, which is called Red Hot Riding Hood.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: So it kind of picture this in the same style as the old Looney Tunes because it was directed by Ted Avery, who helped create characters like Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and the rest of the squad.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So the cartoon starts with the typical story of Little Red Riding Hood, only for the characters to quickly revolt against the fact that they keep playing out quote, the same old story over and over again.
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah.
JULIA: I'm gonna tell you right now. It was made in 1943.
AMANDA: Sure, sure.
JULIA: Did not age well.
AMANDA: No, no, I like the metal textural element of someone realizing they're in a story. I think that's really fun.
JULIA: Yes, but before I get into it, it does not age well.
AMANDA: Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
JULIA: It's extremely sexual. You can watch it because it is like extremely funny and a lot of the like cartoon tropes that we get today kind of originated with this one. Like, I can't remember exactly. I watched this before the episode but like the heart pounding out of the chest, so it's visible, like knocking yourself on the head with the mallet over and over again, because you're quote-unquote, driving yourself crazy. Basically, if you've seen Jim Carrey's The Mask. A lot of the physical cartoonish comedy seems to originate with this cartoon or one similar to it. So-
AMANDA: Yeah, are this kind of like era and style and taste of cartoons that formulated cartoon tropes as we know them now.
JULIA: Yes. So keeping that in mind and the fact that it did not age well, the past-
AMANDA: Fair, 80 years Yeah.
JULIA: After they kind of revolt against having to do the same story over and over again. The scene transforms grandma's house in the woods to a nightclub called Grandma's Joint.
AMANDA: Oh, great. Okay.
JULIA: And Little Red Riding Hood becomes Red Hot Riding Hood. So she gets aged up and is sexual and stuff like that. She performs a burlesque number called Daddy, which makes the wolf for lack of a better phrase horny as hell.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: The wolf tries to get ready to go home with him. But she keeps saying that she has to stay with her grandmother who kind of turning the tables in a fun twist is trying to sleep with the wolf!
AMANDA: Fun.
JULIA: And so it's kind of a lot of like the grandma chasing after the wolf, the wolf chasing after the grandma.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: It kind of ends very violently with the wolf, like trying to avoid the grandmas advances to the point where he dies.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: This is wild, too. There was an alternate ending to that where the grandma catches the wolf. And then they fast forward to kind of an epilogue, and there's these like half wolf half human babies that they're taking care-
AMANDA: Sure, sure, sure, sure.
JULIA: -of her. And the sensors were like, you can't do that.
AMANDA: Yeah. And really again, like really narrowing in on the sort of like, grotesque of age and particularly aging women, you know?
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's the Madonna whore thing, right? Like it's the virginity and age are two sides of a coin. And one is decidedly the one that society privileges and one is humor and gross.
JULIA: Sure is. Sure is. While it is very funny, it also did not age well. So-
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: If you want to check that one out, you can definitely find it online in many places.
AMANDA: No, but again, a very telling transformative work that shows us what features of the story advance the agenda of the time.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And also shows that like, sometimes we don't get the moral.
AMANDA: Nope.
JULIA: Sometimes we're just kind of interpreting it in our own way. So this kind of leads to a very easy segue into the various tropes that we and also many scholars have come to think about when discussing the story of Little Red Riding Hood. So Perrault, as we discussed, had replaced the original sexual content of the story with his red hood, which is kind of a metaphor for Little Red Riding Hood's beauty and ability to attract unsafe and often unwanted attention. And so Perrault kind of clearly warns that by flaunting this beauty, she created her own danger, which is something that unfortunately has persisted into current day where many people are super not afraid to victim blame.
AMANDA:
Yeah, and aren't there some versions of the story where the cloak was like made by her grandma or she made it and she's excited to show her grandma, it is 100% either a, an expression of care, or just like learning a homemaking skill that even the most patriarchal of men could say like, that's useful to know.
JULIA: Right. But I think also, any patriarchal man will be like, well, pride is telling you that you shouldn't be you know, proud of your beautiful red cloak. You shouldn't be showing it off because you were drawing that unwanted attention on yourself.
AMANDA: Seriously.
JULIA: But like, God forbid, we wear clothes that we like and make us feel good, right. Amanda? Perrault's kind of morality along with this predator and prey dynamic of the story with the wolf and the little girl and the gendered violence is part of the reason then that the story is kind of told over and over again and adapted to, as we talked about before promote the agenda of the person who's telling the story, right? Think about for instance, as we were talking about before the portrayal of Little Redd in Sondheim's Into The Woods. I love the line from the show, which is no scary is exciting. Nice is different than good.
AMANDA: Yep.
JULIA: And in that musical, much like in many versions of the story Little Red is kind of guilty of following her curiosity rather than obeying her mother and being quote-unquote good, you know? And as a result, she falls into the trap that is laid by this devious male figure who if you remember watching the original Broadway play, they just like fully give him a wolf dick as part of the costume.
AMANDA: Oh, didn't remember that part.
JULIA: Yeah, do a quick Google real quick. Oh posted for our patrons in the link so that they can see what that's like, but it's like, he just has a codpiece, basically.
AMANDA: Oh, there it is.
JULIA: There's a wolf dick.
AMANDA: Yep. Nope. That's a fun accident. That's just really that was a choice. That's really part of the costume.
JULIA: A costumer made a choice.
AMANDA: Robert Westenberg. Wow. It wasn't his fault that was his costume. But like, damn.
JULIA: Right. I mean, probably looks like he's packing.
AMANDA: Yeah. Jesus.
JULIA: So the musical plays with the idea that innocence is not knowing the difference between good and bad men, right? More or less. And this predator-prey dynamic and also like the sexual overtones of the story, play a really weird dynamic that people are really attracted to like, think about how many weirdly sexual couples costumes are like Little Red Riding Hood and the wolf.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: It's interesting. It's interesting that people are like, Oh, yes, that's something that I want to play in the dynamic of our relationship as a couple.
AMANDA: Short street chinchilla.
JULIA: If that works for you, Jan, sure.
AMANDA: What up googling this I found an article from playbill.com in 2016 by Adam Hetrick interviewing the costumer from the original Broadway production and there are some very choice quotes here from Ann Hould-Ward. If you want to scroll with me.
JULIA: Stephen James both thought that there needed to be a sexual nature. I mean, it's in Hello Little Girl. It's in the song, right? So we wanted to have a very sexual nature to the wolf. And so he has a prosthetic chest. We actually cast the chest of the bodybuilder I think, and he has the physical attributes of a male.
AMANDA: Okay. Okay. But yeah, I mean, it is very clear that the sort of like sexual predation dark nature of this relationship is part of the Into The Woods take on it.
JULIA: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's a lot. Similarly, kind of going into this and talking about the sexual overtones that people usually add to adaptations and retellings. The trope of Red Riding Hood representing puberty and rebirth is also an extremely popular one.
AMANDA: True.
JULIA: In many of these interpretations, Little Red is kind of going through different stages throughout the story and then is eventually reborn through her second birth from the wolf emerging as a more knowledgeable woman. And the implication in a lot of these tellings is that she is now able to outwit the wolf or wolves in general in the future now that she has this new knowledge to protect herself, right? And then you can get really into the kind of, oh, the red cloak represents menstruation. You're like, okay, sure, that's a very obvious metaphor that we can tack on to these stories, right?
AMANDA: Yeah. And red as a whole represents all those things, right? Temptation, desires, sex, blood.
JULIA: Fertility, yeah.
AMANDA: Body. Yeah, all those things.
JULIA: Yeah, absolutely. So my point kind of getting here is whatever version of Little Red Riding Hood we're telling, there's a reason that we keep telling the story over and over again, maybe where the French peasantry just wanting to tell a funny story after a day of laboring in the fields to entertain ourselves. Maybe we're telling these morality tales like Perrault and the Grimm Brothers trying to get a certain message across. Or maybe we're transforming the story into something new entirely, something more along the lines of the messages that we want to be telling, like you were saying before, like, we can only tell the stories of the society that we grew up in, unless we stop reexamine that, and then tell the story again, with the message that we want to be telling. And that's the beauty of fairy tales, right? That even though we can know where the story comes from, and the transformation that it has gone through, that doesn't stop us from making these stories our own.
AMANDA: Yeah, that's retelling that's casting your friends in your favorite play or musical. That's inserting your name into a book that you really enjoy or daydreaming about your crush, you know? With lyrics change from your favorite song all the way up to fanfiction and putting yourself and your peers and your community and your needs into the format of something that's culturally dominant is such an assertive act of self-care. And it's not self-centeredness it's, it's centering yourself in a narrative which is very, very different. And I think, you know, these days there are so many, you know, queer retellings and Own Voices retellings and like it is happening in genre fiction. It's happening in fantasy. It's happening in sci-fi, it's happening in romance, it's happening in ya, right where we are looking at templates and narratives. Whether that's a John Hughes style, you know, teen movie, or a Little Red Riding Hood and saying the vehicle of the story and its cultural prominence gives it so much meaning when you're able to remix it, retell it, and put it forward in a way that feels provocative and exciting and new. And it's a good time to be studying tropes and making them our own.
JULIA: That's true. That's true. Shout out to all of the fanfiction writers who have definitely done a Little Red Riding hood AU for their favorite characters.
AMANDA: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
JULIA: 100% Well conspirators, if you are heading to your grandmother's house through the woods, and you encounter a wolf, remember, as always–
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[outro]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KM