Episode 301: Liminality
/Liminality. Transition. Limbo. Thin places. The betwixt and between! This episode is all about one of our favorite things in mythology and pop culture: liminal spaces!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of child death, death, murder, and violence.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 301. Julia, what do we have in store today?
JULIA: So Amanda, this week we are talking about something that I know is near and dear to your heart. One of your favorite things when we're talking about urban legends and mythology, and that is liminal spaces.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, is my birthday? I love it!
JULIA: Amanda, what is it about liminal spaces that kind of scratches that good part of your brain?
AMANDA: Um, good question, I think that in literature, I am really obsessed with the crossing over that is such a fundamental part of storytelling of the hero's journey of mythologies. It's somebody taken or forced outside the environment that they are used to in their daily lives. And those spaces and places that first step into the unknown is just so interesting. It's like, you know, the human being walking out of the cave, the person, you know, stepping off onto the road to adventure. And there is a magic and a power in in the crossing. And whether it's, you know, finding a book in the library that teaches you how to be a wizard, or stepping into a wardrobe. And it takes you to a magical world, like that, I think had such power over me as a kid who wanted to escape and find somewhere different and loved the idea that if I could just kind of close my eyes and wish hard enough, I could open my closet door and there would be some snow and Mr. Tumnus, you know, waiting there behind it, or that I could open the letter and it says something magical or open a book and there are words and validation there that I am more special than my circumstances tell me I am and as an adult, just more and more I get interested in those signifiers in the thresholds in the places and spaces where we get to be a little bit different, a little bit queer, a little bit outside a little bit shifted to the left. I don't know it just holds endless magic for me, and I am so enthused to talk about it today.
JULIA: Oh, I'm so excited. That makes me really excited. I think that you're going to find this episode really interesting because the concept of liminality of this space of transition or Limbo or thin places, the the betwixt in between is actually something that wasn't researched very much until the like early 1900s. So the idea of liminal of liminality actually comes from the Latin word for threshold, and it was first established and explored by this Dutch German French ethnographer and folklorist named Arnold van Gennep.
AMANDA: Great name.
JULIA: Fantastic. I love a van, honestly.
AMANDA: I know. I know.
JULIA: More vans in just everyone's names. So he explored liminality and his work which was the rites of passage, which was published in 1909. And in rites of passage, he discusses how all rites of passage are kind of made up of three phases. So the preliminary, liminality, and post liminality. So you're probably wondering right now listening to me talk about this, like, okay, Julia, this is cool, I guess. But what does Arnold van Gennep's anthropological theories have to do with mythology and urban legends.
AMANDA: I am already making those connections. But I am a nerd for liminality. So let's get into it, baby.
JULIA: So not only did he give us the name of liminality, but his work actually influenced the work of Joseph Campbell, specifically his work in the Hero with a Thousand Faces which he published in 1949, about 40 years later, and introduced the world to the monomyth, also known as the hero's journey.
AMANDA: Mm hmm.
JULIA: So we're seeing how the domino effect is happening here.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Now then, Gennep's definition of liminality is much different from the like, current conception of liminal spaces and like modern pop culture. So I'm sure a lot of you know what I'm talking about those those pictures of uninhabited fluorescent lit settings like empty retail spaces or abandoned shopping malls, especially here in the US.
AMANDA: Yeah. Or like a highway with a single light down down at the end of it. I follow so many of those back in the day tumblers and now Instagram accounts.
JULIA: Yeah. And I was about to say, you know, the completely empty road with no one in sight, you know, that kind of thing.
AMANDA: There it is.
JULIA: And there is something that is particularly haunting or disturbing about seeing a place that had a clear purpose at one point but is no longer being used for that thing.
AMANDA: Yeah, it's like the fear of rapture or your people being eaten by animal like It's like there's something so instinctual about this place is characterized by its fullness, and now it is empty. And the animal part of my brain, you know, says, "Well, then why the hell am I here?" Something is wrong.
JULIA: It's almost like you've fallen into a place where other people don't exist, right?
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: The use of liminal or liminality in this regard is not the same as the framing of ritual and the hero's journey that Campbell and van Gennep use, but they are images that are sort of visual representations of a disconnect between us and a capitalist society more or less. So stay with me here. When we're talking about these modern conceptions of liminal space, people are not necessary for these places to exist and they still exist even without customers without people to consume in them or be consumed by them. If you listening to this, have an opportunity to like go to Reddit and check out the liminal spaces subreddit, you'll notice that pretty much any popular photo on that subreddit lacks other people in the photo.
AMANDA: Exactly. And I think just like that art piece of how aliens would extrapolate from our infrastructure, what humans find valuable, like the site of an empty parking lot with grass beginning to take it over, makes you think like, What the hell is this a temple to? Like looking through that anthropological lens, I think is what the liminal spaces are like on Instagram dead malls is a hashtag that I follow and find a lot of just like pleasure and just looking at those images, because it says like, what are these meccas and temples and churches to like, what what is it for? And when no one is there to use them? Is there power left in a space? And that's what we talked about so often when it comes to hauntings?
JULIA: Yeah, that's fantastic. So I think that if we go back to ven Gennep, I think I can lead us down a path that leads from his seminal text to the rites of passage to this sort of Anti-Capitalist modern understanding of liminal space.
AMANDA: Julia, I would love nothing more.
JULIA: Thank you. First, let's discuss van Gennep's core theory. So basically, what he suggests is that there are four categories of rites that emerge across cultures, almost universally. And so here are the four, you have passage of people from one status to another, such as childhood to adulthood, passage from one place to another, like moving houses or moving cities, passage from one life situation to another such as like starting school or starting a new job, and then the right or celebration of the passage of time. So that's birthdays, New Year celebrations, or things that are similar to that.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: And I think he's right, in that those are pretty much like universal rites of passage across humanity, right? I feel like there's always some sort of like, transition from childhood to adulthood of like starting a new job gaining a new title, that sort of thing.
AMANDA: Yeah, the year or the passing of the seasons, the moon, the sun, you know, these are, these are ways that we give our lives structure and meaning.
JULIA: Exactly, exactly. Now, van Gennep's categories can be applied to a few different aspects of anthropology. And that is what we're going to talk about. So liminality, as an aspect of ritual for one liminality in folklore and mythology, of course, is something that we're also going to talk about, and then we're going to talk about thin places, which is very specific to Irish Celtic lore. And then finally, we'll talk about how these have kind of shaped our ideas of what modern liminality is. So are you ready to get started?
AMANDA: So tasty.
JULIA: You can't see Amanda and I shaking our shoulders at each other, but we are are like, ooh, ready to go like that cat in that one gift?
AMANDA: Yeah, a little a little shoulder shimmy? Can't wait.
JULIA: Starting with liminality as a part of ritual, I want to start with the fact that many cultures have shrines or gates that kind of act as a point or like a literal threshold, that one can cross into the sacred from the mundane. So for example, there is the torii, which is a traditional Japanese gate found at the entrances of Shinto shrines, and are meant to symbolically mark the transition from the mundane to the sacred. As one follows, the pathway representing increasing levels of holiness to the inner sanctuary of the shrine, more and more torii can be found on the path which delineates levels of sacredness as you transition forward.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So one of my favorites is actually the Fushimi Inari Shrine. I'm going to send you a photo, Amanda, it is beautiful. And for our listeners who are at our director's commentary level on patreon you could also see an image of this.
AMANDA: Oh yeah, beautiful.
JULIA: So this shrine is dedicated to the god Inari who is the god of rice harvest, commerce and business but the shrine has this sort of winding path of these beautiful dark orange vermillion Torii gates that lead you from the shrine to the top of Mount Inari. And it is just absolutely gorgeous. Like I said, if you can find a picture of it, take a look it is it's truly stunning. And I think that it really does kind of feel like you are transitioning from something that is mundane to sacred, just winding down that path, right?
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: So the toroo actually may have derived from the Indian Torana, which are the sacred gateways that are similarly found in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain architecture. And in fact, throughout many Eastern Asian cultures, similar gateways can be found. So the Shanmen in China, iljumun in Korea, Tam Quan in Vietnam and Sao Ching-Cha in Thailand. So these are all examples of these kinds of transitional gates of allowing one to transition from the mundane to the sacred, and I think that's beautiful. They're all really gorgeous. If you didn't look at any image of these, you can see why they feel otherworldly in a way.
JULIA: Amazing. While these torii are about humans passing from the mundane to the sacred, there are also like examples of the opposite. So we've talked on the show about Dia de los Muertos before, which is about honoring the dead, and is a really good example of a holiday or celebration with ritual that deals with liminality, right? During this time, just as a refresher for people who haven't listened that episode in awhile, the Spirits of the dead are believed to return home and spend time with their family during the days of Dia de los Muertos, and to welcome them families build an altar an ofrenda in their honor. And in some observances of the Dia de los Muertos, the Spirits of children are the first ones to return because it is said that they're eager to reunite with their families, and then they're joined by the Spirits of the adults the next day. So in this tradition, it's actually really interesting because those who do not reach adulthood, who are like trapped in the liminal space of being children forever. They are the ones that have the stronger ability to cross back over through the veil between the living and the dead.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
JULIA: So now we're going to talk a little bit more about how liminality plays a role in some of our favorite stories from like theology and folklore. But first, let's grab a refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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JULIA: Hey, this is Julia and welcome to the refill. I have my iced coffee and I am ready to go and I'm going to start by thanking our newest patrons. Thank you so much, Penelope, Rose, ComeWatchMyTwitchStreams, Emma, Nathan, Katrina, Tiffany, Sebastian, Helen, Brannigan, Kendall, Amaryllis, Nashia, and CicutaMaculata (which, fun fact, is the most toxic plant in North America). Did you know that? I knew that. Well, I found out about it. Anyway, they join our incredible supporting producer level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Brittany, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Iron Havoc, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi and of course, our legend level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Clara, Morgan, Sarah, Schmitty, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: Now, if you listen to our Episode 300 You know that we have revamped our Patreon with some exciting new tiers, including ad free episodes. So if you're listening to this right now, and you're like, yeah, I like the refills. They're fun, but I really want to just get back to the story, you can sign up at our $8 a month tier and get ad free episodes. That sounds kind of nice, doesn't it? didn't just say could be cool. Check it out at patreon.com/spiritspodcast and check out all of the new tiers that we've added and some really cool and exciting new rewards. Plus new and exciting stuff more new and exciting in my life. I want to recommend to you a movie that I recently watched with my husband and it's called The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent. If you like Nick Cage, if you think Nick Cage is one of the most interesting actors of his generation and you just want to watch a super weird meta version of him, definitely check out The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent. It's a very fun just like weekday movie watch and I really enjoyed it, I'm not gonna lie to you, it was a lot of fun. Also, a lot of fun was watching the trailer for the new Percy Jackson TV series that is going to be coming out on Disney+ and if you are a fan of Percy Jackson or you know it might interest you I would recommend you check out The Newest Olympian, join Mike Schubert first time Percy Jackson and the Olympians reader on his quest to find out in The Newest Olympian if Percy Jackson is the YA series we should have been reading all along. Each week, he chats with a longtime Percy Jackson fan to cover a portion of the series they'll recap the plot beat by beat dive into Greek Mythology of the story and sing the praises of Percy's incredible snark, are you a Percy Jackson superfan? You can venture down memory lane and laugh and Mike failing to predict what happens next or if you've never read the series and are looking for an excuse to do so you can read along with the podcast like additional book club, they have new episodes every Monday search for The Newest Olympian in your podcast app or go to the newestolympian.com to start listening.
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JULIA: And finally, now a word from our sponsor BetterHelp. It is really hard to train your brain to stay in problem solving mode when faced with a challenge in life. I know that for me, anytime I am faced with something that is really, really difficult, I kind of just want to run and hide. It's my fight or flight instinct, and it's very much flight oriented when it comes to problems in my life. And this is why a therapist can help you because they can help you become a better problem solver. And they can make it easier for you to accomplish your goals no matter how big or how small. I know talking to my therapist has really helped with what I call worst case scenario brain, which is I think everything is going to be the worst possible outcome. And talking to a therapist has really made it clear that hey, all past experience kind of proves that that's not the case, right? And so shout out to my therapist for helping me with that. So if you're thinking of giving therapy a try, BetterHelp is a great option. It's convenient, it's accessible, it's affordable, and it's entirely online, you can get matched with a therapist after filling out a brief survey and switch therapists at any time. When you want to be a better problem solver, therapy can help you get there visit betterhelp.com/spirits today to get 10% off your first month. That's better H E L P.com/spirits. And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: Now since we're talking about liminality, I was thinking about what cocktail would really embody a sort of transitionary area or something like that. And the thing that popped into my head was layered cocktails, right? So I was doing a little research because usually layered cocktails are not my thing unless someone else is making it for me because I just want to drink the thing. I don't want to have to go through the presentation level before I drink it at home, you know?
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: But as I was doing my research, I stumbled on a recipe which is called the Vertigo, which is actually like a really simple and delicious recipe. It's just a matter of presentation again, but it looks really pretty without being super sweet and giving me an instant headache, which I appreciate because I don't want an instant headache. So it is layered lemon juice ginger ale Amaro, which is like an Italian bitter digestive, and I just it looks really nice, and I like the flavors and it's, it's good.
AMANDA: I've been really into butterfly pea tea lemonade recently.
JULIA: Hell yeah.
AMANDA: And there are many mixed drinks you can get with it as well. But even just it with lemonade is so delicious or lemon juice. It's so beautiful. It feels like a fairy, and I highly recommend it if you see it on the menu at your local Thai restaurant.
JULIA: Absolutely. And there are also like plenty of mocktail options that you could do for layered mocktails as well. It's all about the density of the liquids. Amanda, did you know that?
AMANDA: You know I've heard of it. And I've heard that you can like use the back of a spoon and pour it and it stays layered. But I'm just like, feels like a trap and feels like a thing that I might mess up. Therefore I don't want to try it
JULIA: Feels like science, which I'm bad at. And so-
AMANDA: I know. Dr. Moiya is not here, we're not we don't talk about science right now.
JULIA: So with these in hand, let's take a couple of sips and we'll get into liminality in folklore and myths.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: So the first story I'm going to mention is one that we covered really early on in Spirits which is the story of Cupid and Psyche. Now this story is like literally chock full of liminality, right? So psyche, in her very essence is stuck in this sort of limbo, right? She's too beautiful to be a human. She's not yet a goddess. When she is married to Cupid like the literal marriage ceremony. It's portrayed as a funeral march because it is the end of her mortal life. And also her family is convinced that she is going to literally die when she gets married to this what they think is a beast, but it's really just a handsome god named Cupid.
AMANDA: It's a metaphor for how we treat women.
JULIA: Yes. So their marriage is both consummated and not consummated. Because while they have sexual relations, she never really knows who her husband is until it's too late.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And she's constantly portrayed in the story as being between worlds she's both a maiden and a wife. She is a human but she's also a god and she well in this space between the world of the mundane and the divine, is set tasks to prove her worth to transition. from one world to another, like she's quite literally stuck and needs to do tasks in order to move forward, right? I mean, she is literally made to go and travel to the underworld and come back. She is warned that if she opens the box there, it's going to send her into a deep and unending sleep, which is another form of liminality. And finally, finally, when her tasks are complete, she is able to move from the state of liminality to post liminality as defined by van Gennep. And she is given ambrosia she becomes immortal, her marriage to Cupid becomes one of equals, and it is just 100% Exactly what Joseph Campbell was thinking of when he looked at van Gennep's work, and he's like, I can apply this to the hero's journey of Greek mythology. We're like, yeah, Joseph, you could! It's just like, like, I can't think of a better story that is beat for beat. One, the hero's journey and two, so defining of what liminal space is in mythology, you know?
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: I just love that story, man. I'm so glad we did it so early on the show.
AMANDA: I know it's so fundamental.
JULIA: It really is and it just like, if you understand the story of Cupid and Psyche, you understand basically, every European fairy tale that is told you understand just the basic beats of every hero's journey, it's so important. I don't know. I get a little choked up when I think about Cupid and Psyche. I don't know. Liminality for Psyche is sort of a punishment, right? She's suffering until she is removed from liminality. But there are also stories where liminality is a form of vulnerability within mythology as well. So there is a Welsh story of Lleu Llaw Gyffes. This was a Welsh warrior who could only be killed within a liminal space. Listen to this because this is wild.
AMANDA: I mean, Julia, my first thought was Achilles and his heel, which sounds much less interesting than whatever this is, so I'm all aboard.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Achilles, invulnerable, except for one spot. Lleu Llaw Gyffes, just buck wild. He could not be killed during day or night.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: Not indoors or outdoors.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: Not walking or riding.
AMANDA: I see.
JULIA: Not clothed or naked.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: So he has to be half undressed, sitting on a threshold at dusk?
JULIA: Yes. So you got dusk, I was gonna ask you to see if you could guess it. But you were already ahead of me. So great. You can only be killed at dusk, wrapped in a net-
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: -which I think is the indoor outdoor bit.
AMANDA: Oh, sure.
JULIA: One foot in a cauldron.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: And one on a goat.
AMANDA: Great. I mean, that seems it seems pretty easy to avoid being killed under those circumstances.
JULIA: Yes, yes. He also can only be killed with a spear that was forged for a year during the hours that everyone is at mass.
AMANDA: Sounds like someone would have to try really hard and with a lot of money to get him dead.
JULIA: That's true. That's true. Blessed, this man, clearly. This vulnerability that like he must exist in the liminal space in order to be killed, while not a myth necessarily is very similarly shared to the forest spirit in Princess Mononoke, which we've covered here on Spirits as well.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Which, if you'll remember, the forest spirit could only be killed while it was shifting between forms, right? But this idea that one is only vulnerable when they are not in a definitive state is a really interesting one to me. I couldn't quite come to a conclusion as to why that was Amanda, and I'm sure you might have some interesting insight on why you're most vulnerable when in a liminal space.
AMANDA: It feels like somebody in motion, it feels like you are not firmly awake or sleeping, indoors or outdoors. Like think about, you know, driving out of a tunnel and your eyes take a minute to adjust.
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: I'm sort of thinking from real kind of practicality, and a sense of like physical safety, where if your body is kind of uncertain of what's happening, then you can react less quickly and less well to a threat coming at you. And I think two, from like a psychological perspective, it feels really bad to not be able to define yourself and to be in between communities or worlds. And there's all kinds of ways in which queerness transmits mixed newness, a convert or an immigrant or newcomer to whatever group or neighborhood you're in, you know, makes you feel not totally one thing or another. And, you know, our brains love pattern or brains love category, and being without those things, even temporarily, or momentarily, I think feels really vulnerable.
JULIA: Yeah, I 100% agree. I think that's it. And there is something to be said about knowing that your feet are firmly planted in one place or another. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Also sorry, the idea that just struck me how many times they had to probably try to kill this guy, where they were like watching the sun either come down or set and they're like, now? no- now? Now! Okay, just like off by a second like, fuck! Alright, we'll try again tomorrow.
AMANDA: Yeah, like a director on site who you know is only getting like one shot at five in the morning. Everyone's been there since one setting up and they're like, fuck we missed it.
JULIA: Yes, but trying to kill a man.
AMANDA: Right, right. Yeah, different states, different states.
JULIA: Just a little bit different just a little bit different, I think. In terms of liminal spaces in mythology, we have to talk about the crossroads, because it is a very common feature, because it is this kind of in between location is a physical manifestation of a decision while on a journey. So for example, in Greek mythology, Oedipus kills his father in a place where three roads meet of literal crossroads. A lot of deals with the devil in folklore are said to be made across roads and practitioners of magic believe that crossroads are a powerful source of power as well. Papa Legba, from Haitian voodoo stands at the like literal, and also spiritual crossroads and either gives or denies permission to speak with Spirits of the dead. That's just a few examples. We've talked about Janus as a literal god of the threshold, we've talked about Hestia as the goddess of the threshold. So the idea of the crossroads being a powerful place where liminality is happening is extremely important to all mythology across the board.
AMANDA: Yeah, like not to get too far ahead of ourselves in terms of analysis. But there's a thing I talk about in therapy all the time that like uncertainty is also opportunity. And the reasons why we feel vulnerable in liminal spaces or at crossroads, literally or figuratively, is because there's a lot of possibility, there's a lot of power, like there, it makes total sense why practitioners use crossroads as places of great opportunity, because they're also dangerous. And the chance to do something new is defined by a lack of certainty. And that is really hard to stomach when, like me, you are a creature of the hearth and you love to be curled up safely inside your threshold, to realize that standing on it looking out with the potential to go backward or forward or in a new direction on the z axis, you know, past the next star till wherever it comes next, like that is opportunity and opportunity is scary.
JULIA: Yes, as I've talked about in my therapy sessions, I have worst case scenario brain. So standing at the crossroads and seeing the directions you can go in my brain immediately goes like, okay, well, here's the worst thing that can happen over there. I die. Here's the worst thing that can happen over there. I also die. Oh, no, they're all terrible. And then you're just stuck there. And we'll talk a little bit about the fear of liminal spaces towards the end of this episode, but I think that's a big part of that for me. So-
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: All of these stories of liminality in folklore and urban legends feature this kind of transition, right? Psyche transitions from mortal to goddess after spending time in the liminal space, Lleu Llaw Gyffes existed outside of the liminality, and existing in the liminality is a threat to him, it's the only way he can die. And of course, the Crossroads as this physical manifestation of liminal space is a place where a decision must be made in order to transition to another phase of life. Many of the phases which are represented by Van Gennep's four categories of rites, tying it back.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: I also want to talk a little bit about thin spaces, which is a concept from Irish Celtic lore. So these thin spaces are locations or sometimes times of the year, where the veil between the world and the spiritual realm is diminished. So there is a Celtic saying that Heaven and Earth are only three feet apart, but in thin places, the distance is even smaller. I love being able to like have a very specific distance that I have to travel in order to go from heaven and earth. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: I think that's so funny. I love it.
JULIA: That's very Irish, I feel like. So it is worth noting that outside of Celtic lore, it is kind of a bit difficult to find sources of places that are considered thin places, because the experience of discovering a thin place is sort of like a singular and culturally unique one. So if you have a story of experiencing a thin place, the likelihood that you're going to share the exact location is very small.
AMANDA: Oh, sure. Yeah. No. Why would anyone Irish tell anybody anything if they don't have to?
JULIA: Exactly and especially like, a weird thing that happened to them? You know, don't ask too many questions.
AMANDA: The English would probably come in Annex it like no, thank you.
JULIA: However, one notable thing place is that of Iona, which is a central location in Celtic culture and history and of course, folklore. So Iona is actually often used as a symbol between Wales, Scotland, Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as like this sort of through line for what the culture is outside of English colonialism. Iona is a real place. It is a small island that is located within the archipelago off the western coast of Scotland, and it has a reputation for being a thin place and it is still like to this day, visited and worshipped but like it is a spiritual pilgrimage spot for a lot of people and that is what a lot of their culture is based off of is the tourism and also the like spiritual retreats industry. It's got a very interesting history honestly like it was during the early Middle Ages in 1563 when the Iona Abbey was established by an Irish man named Colombo and Colombo was one of the 12 apostles of Ireland and eventually canonized as a saint by the Catholic Church. So for three centuries after the Iona Abbey was established, the island was pretty much considered the location of Gaelic like monastery culture and life and is said to be the birthplace of Celtic Christianity.
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: The island also has a lot of like very notable features. There are these large stone crosses that may have been the first ones to feature the kind of round ring around the cross that is characteristic of the Celtic cross.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: The monks of the Iona Abbey were mainly tasked with producing illuminated Christian manuscripts, which is my favorite type of art because it's both hilarious and beautiful.
AMANDA: Yes, it really is.
JULIA: The Book of Kells, which is like-
AMANDA: Which I've seen in person.
JULIA: Yes, it is considered Ireland's greatest cultural treasure and it was created at the Iona Abbey.
AMANDA: Friend of the show, Rowan worked at Iona Abbey for several years I didn't get a chance to visit while he was there but God, I want to.
JULIA: Was it beautiful, the Book of Kells?
AMANDA: It was so pretty.
JULIA: Yeah
AMANDA: So pretty.
JULIA: Like I said, in modern day Iona is both a destination for like tourism and spiritual retreats. It is also the burial site of 48 Scottish kings, eight Norwegian kings for Irish kings, including both the historical Macbeth and Duncan, which are immortalized in Shakespeare's play.
AMANDA: Oh, boy.
JULIA: That's true. Can confirm
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Yeah. So I on to both a beautiful and very remote place to get to, but a spiritual thin place that is still kind of worshipped as such today.
AMANDA: From everything I have read and seen, it seems gorgeous and somewhere where whatever is next feels most tangible. And I can totally understand and appreciate the experience of going somewhere and just feeling like man, whatever is bigger than me feels more tangible here than it does in my daily life.
JULIA: Absolutely. I don't think I'll ever go there because it seems very far away and hard to get to. But I appreciate the historical and spiritual like value that it has, you know what I mean?
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Finally, I want to transition us get it because liminality and transitions and all that-
AMANDA: Wee!
JULIA: -to modern liminality. So we've already discussed the kind of like anticapitalist understanding of liminal spaces that is very current in modern pop culture. But there are some experiences that are included in our modern understanding of liminality, including commercial flight, for example. It has like a distinctively liminal flavor. Wouldn't you agree?
AMANDA: Yeah. What your mind knows is happening and what your body thinks is happening are very different. And that is very strange. In lots of places, airports, planes, casinos, really deliberately tried to dissociate you from time and space.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And it is very strange to deal with the fact that you like walk onto a vessel you seem like you're sort of standing still for a while, and then you come out somewhere new.
JULIA: Yes. So I actually have a great quote from a scholar named Alexandra Murphy. She studies like commercial air flight as a liminal practice.
AMANDA: Oh, very cool.
JULIA: And she says, "The experience of airplane travel is a modern and accessible liminal experience, you are literally suspended in the sky, neither here nor there in a room that is in constant movement." And she also suggests that the cultural performances of flight are intended to, "Convince us that air travel is a reflection of reality rather than a separation from it."
AMANDA: Hmm, interesting.
JULIA: Isn't that dope?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Also, like, I don't know, every time I fly, it just also feels like I'm nowhere for a couple of hours.
AMANDA: Yeah, like you're, you're sort of between timezones, you're acting as if it's the one you left when they serve you dinner, but then four hours later, they serve you breakfast and you're like, what? The sort of like Twilight lighting, especially of overnight flights-
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: -just feels made up and then you land and you've been, you know, in the air for 10 hours, but you've only gone back in time by three or it just it scrambles the mind and reminds me Julia of in college, I think I mentioned on the show a couple of times before I read, the scholar called Schivelbusch, who kind of wrote and summarized the this sort of panic around trains when they were first introduced to England.
JULIA: Right?
AMANDA: And people are like, moving faster than you can run will scramble your brain and like nobody should do it. And people were so worried that through unnatural means in quotes, like moving the human body, like the fact that things blur in front of your eyes is a signal that like your brain is going to leak out a few years, because it is going faster than they were like, even horseback. We can make some exceptions for horseback but going faster than horseback.
JULIA: I was gonna say, What about horseback?
AMANDA: Yeah, like, like they, they were so insistent that the human body could not cope with moving faster than horse pace. And just like seeing the land disappear under you, like you don't get a chance to make a relationship with the land as you pass through it, which I think is really interesting. And like having me writing all about it, and I still think and feel a lot about that now is, I think, really interesting and is worth talking about, like, what are the advantages and disadvantages to feeling transitions as you make them. you know?
JULIA: Is there's something to be said about that, though? Because, like, clearly, our brains can't comprehend, too well the idea of like, I got on a metal box, and then when I got back out of that metal box, I was in a place that was different, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And like, I can stare out my window on an airplane and see the ground beneath me. But it almost always feels fake, right? It looks like you're you're looking at a set piece or like a diorama of what the world looks like.
AMANDA: It does.
JULIA: So maybe, maybe they weren't wrong.
AMANDA: I don't think they're wrong.
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: And I'm sure that 40 years from now people will put Schivelbusch into conversation with scholars of you know, alternate reality, like the metaverse and virtual reality and stuff like that. It's not getting simpler to negotiate these things as our ability to like, recreate and sort of mix simulacra of worlds with technology fools, our brain, you know, that makes it harder. It's like It's like the whole thing about better than HD movies. And like at a certain frames per second, when movie cameras capture images better than your eyes can, it looks false
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's truer, but it looks false. Because we can only perceive things as well as our body lets us.
JULIA: Yeah, and I think there's also something to be said about your brain expects certain things, and when the expectations are not met in your brain, it riots.
AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, we do it in podcasting.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Like if our voices when you listen to the podcast had no sense of we call room tone of atmosphere of hearing a little bit of the kind of like the buzz, the static the echo of a room, if you record in a purely soundproof box, a it's a really trippy experience.
JULIA: Sounds fucked up.
AMANDA: It sounds fake, it sounds fucked up. Like you need some amount of environment and static and dirt in the audio or the image or whatever it is, you're talking about, like when people do CGI that to add like shadow and blemish and texture back because something artificially smooth, our brains can't perceive and don't treat as real.
JULIA: Yeah, 100%, right? Our brains just get mad at us all the time. And I think that's why liminality is such an interesting thing, and it's why it scratches the like, ah, in the back of our brain, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Because this is a thing that we don't quite understand. Again, it's going back to the Welsh hero where you have to have your feet firmly planted in one place or another. Otherwise, you're vulnerable to being nowhere.
AMANDA: Yeah, and Maslow's hierarchy of needs is not a be all and end all to anything.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: But I think it goes to remind us that when too much in our life is in flux, it's hard to feel connected to it. It's hard to make decisions to feel, you know, grounded and rooted and like we're enjoying things. And that is totally real and not like a moral failing. It's a requirement of our brains and bodies, to feel like you can, you know, wake up in one place, and know that when you fall asleep, you're going to be in the same one or when you fall asleep, the place you're going to wake up is going to be the same that you can count on certain things, and why you know, routine and making sacred routine is such a part of mythology and folklore. I think liminality stands out and is significant, because it is a departure from the norm. Because it is in some ways, the utter opposite of what humanity's project is, which is to make a world that is hostile or ambivalent to us safe and predictable. You know, we talk from the very beginning about mythology that deals with the weather, fertility, love power, all of these things that are so central to humanity and ultimately pretty unpredictable are uncontrollable and our desperate attempts to control it. That's why I feel like liminal spaces are so clear and so interesting and so often so punk because it is really like staring the void in the face and saying I will stand here and I will, you know take you in like it feels contrarian in a way that I really appreciate. But I know that appreciation is because so many other aspects of my life are predictable. And so from the safety of my couch in my home, like the way I want it with my little plants, like I can look at those images of dead malls and not feel utterly destabilized because it's that like death urge, right? It's like, it's why we read poems and stories about death, like it's a way to take that in and think about those questions, and look at those images on my terms.
JULIA: That is fascinating. I love that. And it actually is really interesting because the last part that I wanted to talk about here is liminal space as horror, especially in like creepy pasta, and stuff like that.
AMANDA: Oh, yes.
JULIA: If people aren't super aware, all of the like, subreddits and the Instagram stuff of these, like dead malls and stuff like that are like, very often used as fodder for-
AMANDA: It's creepy. Yeah.
JULIA: It is creepy. Yes, absolutely. The one concept that I wanted to talk about is in 2019, the creepy pasta boards kind of invented this concept of the back rooms.
AMANDA: Yes. Oh, Julia. Delicious. Yes, my mouth is salivating. So
JULIA: For people who don't know the back rooms, these are liminal spaces that are described as seemingly endless collections of walls, rooms and halls have like, empty like either gray or yellowing walls washed out fluorescent, reminiscent of kind of abandoned warehouses and abandoned offices and stuff.
AMANDA: Yeah, or like a hotel banquet room that's empty, or like an auditorium in your school when no one's in it. But there is I'm sure you're gonna mention it, like a famous kind of Twitter thread or Reddit thread of a guy kind of which I think was dramatized, but was really effective.
JULIA: Right.
AMANDA: Like going to the bathroom in a conference and then like walking for miles, and somehow appearing on like, he was on the eighth floor and started on the first like, everything disconnected, and then suddenly, you know, he was able to get in touch with somebody and like, oh, he'll open the exit door. And then that's where it was, but it wasn't there before.
JULIA: Exactly. That's the one that I was also thinking of over talking about that. But these spaces are kind of supposed to be like barren of meaning and emotion. They're crossover spaces, they are uncomfortable, because no one is supposed to be in them, as opposed to kind of the liminal spaces that we were talking about earlier, which are meant to be passed through. Kind of the question that I want to pose before we wrap up is, why are we now more afraid of liminal spaces where they were once holy places, places of ritual and meaning? Why are they now scary to us?
AMANDA: Interesting.
JULIA: For me, I think we are afraid of being stuck in between places, and therefore phases of our life, and never being able to escape to the next part of ourselves. And I think that even goes back to the reference that I was making to Dia de los Muertos, where the Spirits of deceased children, they are the ones that are strongest within the liminal space, because they will never have the opportunity to transition into the next natural phase of their life, which is adulthood. And I think we're just afraid that we're all constantly going to be stuck in this phase. And maybe that's like a millennial issue almost where our parents, a lot of our parents were like, already in more adult, quote unquote, culturally adult stages of their life at our age, like they were married with children and had houses and meanwhile, we are trying to scrape by with student debt and going to college for four years, because they told us that we had to, and all that kind of stuff.
AMANDA: And I am aware, I am not Gen Z. So I will never understand them fully. But from you know, observing their culture, it seems like lots of them have fully, fully just kind of let go of those expectations, because they know it's not realistic for them. Whereas we, you know, had that kind of, again, depending on like your your class and resources and where you came up specifically, but I know for you and me, there was that real expectation of you know, get one good job that'll last you forever, you know, hit these adulthood milestones, and just when we were about to embark on that project, it became much less possible leaving us in a kind of like, it is this sort of like body and brain disconnect, where, you know, all of our training led us to believe something was possible. And then when it's not, you know, you react in lots of ways, some of which is, you know, voting for fascists and some of which is the saying, like, alright, well, you know, like, this is why I've talked about before, I'm grateful to be queer. Because it feels like I was never I never held myself to those standards, because I knew whatever I did with my life would look different. And so I got to say like, great like, what do I want? And you're not often kind of prompted to ask yourself that question I feel unless out of necessity and I don't know it's it's a great question and Julia, in some ways, I feel like my experience of liminality is only getting fonder and fonder as time goes on. I've spent the last year becoming Jewish, and converting has been very exciting. It's been a thing that I've thought and planned for a long time. I just formalized it a few weeks ago, so I'm officially a Jew, welcome me to the tribe, fellow Jews.
JULIA: Whoo!
AMANDA: And Jewishness is defined by liminality. Jews are descended from the Hebrews like a biblical line of people in the Bible. And Hebrew means one who crosses over It is defined by leaving what you know, to seek something new. And certainly the experience of Jews in the world has often been biding our time until someone kicks us out. And so much of our ritual and our lives and our practice and our culture are all about, we know nothing's going to last. And so, you know, what do we do in the meantime, then what do we do with that? How do we make our traditions portable? How do we adapt to the culture of where we're at? And is that important? What defines, you know, being Jewish in a new place? And how do you plan for that? And so this idea of like, there's a phrase in the Bible and in Judaism of Lech lecha, which means go from your land, like go from the land go from your father's house and the land of your father's basically, that is so central to Jewishness is leave where you're at, and you'll find out where you're going in due time. And it is so interesting to read and think and learn about and read, you know, 1000s of of years worth of just rabbis and smart people writing about what that means. So I don't know what my answer is totally. But I know that I'm not scared of liminality anymore. And for me, being Jewish means living in living in that uncertainty, and figuring out like, what it means for me and being okay with whatever comes next.
JULIA: Hey, Amanda. Yeah, that was a great answer.
AMANDA: Thank you. If you're obsessed with liminal spaces, and we're an English major, you might want to look into Jewishness. It's great.
JULIA: I have nothing more to add to that because I think that's a fantastic answer to the question of why are we afraid? And the answer is we don't have to be. It's okay. It's okay to be in transition. It is okay to not have your feet exactly set in one world or another. It is okay to exist liminaly
AMANDA: Yeah, you can find other people whose hands you can hold when you're in the threshold, it becomes a place of its own. It's not I think the circumstances around us that make a place a place it's knowing that leave other people where even if we are, you know, taking shelter in a threshold, or cave or a place that we're uncertain of, even if you know you're not really sure what comes next in your life in whatever phase you're in, at least being able to turn to somebody else and be like nuts, right? Like that is what makes your experience valid or not valid, but validated like that is what makes having a witness to your experience means so much.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And you know, looking around you at the empty restaurant in the middle of a highway with no people working there and being like, was the world raptured? Or am I in a liminal space like what's happening here? Having someone next to you means so much and makes that a story you can talk about later, instead of like, existential fear that your body locks down in. So Julia, next time I find a thin place, a threshold liminal spot. I'm gonna give you a call and be like Julia, you'll never guess what I found?
JULIA: Yeah, and I'll respond on the phone. Let's say Amanda-
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[outro]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KM