Episode 289: Hestia
/Hestia is the living embodiment of the heart of the home. This oft-forgotten Olympian might not have gotten into the same shenanigans and antics that the other gods got into, but that doesn’t stop her from being an incredibly important goddess.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, birth, colonization, abandonment, execution, being buried alive, imprisonment, enslavement, and propaganda.
Housekeeping
- Live Show: Join us on July 15th in-person in NYC OR stream the show live!
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends Cemetery Boys by Aiden Thomas!
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out The Newest Olympian: Join Mike Schubert, a first-time PJO reader, on his quest to find out if Percy Jackson is the YA series we should’ve been reading all along! Search for The Newest Olympian in your podcast app or go to thenewestolympian.com to start listening!
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Transcript
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 289: Hestia! part of the It's All Greek To Me: Finally Fulfilling the Promise of Spirits Podcast, by Spirits Podcast Series.
JULIA: Yeah, we're getting close to wrapping up on the It's All Greek To Me: Finally Fulfilling the Promise of Spirits Podcast, by Spirits Podcast.
AMANDA: Julia, it's so fun. I don't wanna!
JULIA: I know. I'm sorry.
AMANDA: It's okay.
JULIA: I'm sure we'll touch on more Greek stuff eventually in the future. But we're getting close, we're getting close to the end here.
AMANDA: And we have some fun stuff planned for the rest of the year. So don't worry, folks. Lots to come in your way.
JULIA: Of course. Now, Amanda, we are kind of going to be wrapping up on one of the often forgotten Olympians which is Hestia and I'm curious what your initial thoughts or impressions of Hestia are.
AMANDA: Almost nothing. This is almost a blank slate. I have some kind of impression that she's like mature or responsible. But that's really all I got.
JULIA: She is both mature and responsible.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: That is you nailed that one around the head.
AMANDA: Nice. I thought you're gonna be like, well, she is the– the loosest and flooziest of the gods. So that was really what I was expecting.
JULIA: No, I would never do that to you. Your- your instincts are always on the money. So Hestia is actually the oldest of the Olympians, she is the goddess of the domestic and civic hearth of sacred and sacrificial fire, virginity, family and the state.
AMANDA: Wow, those are sort of the realms of responsibility, are they not?
JULIA: Truly is the realms of responsibility both in the home and in the statehood. So she's crushing it.
AMANDA: Nice.
JULIA: So, Amanda, I think the reason that you don't know a lot about Hestia and the fact that she's kind of a clean slate for you is the fact that she doesn't feature in a lot of the stories of Greek mythology, which we'll talk a little bit about later as to why that is, but she was an extremely important goddess in the day to day of Ancient Greek life, and the structure of their society in general.
AMANDA: Tell me all about it.
JULIA: I will. So I think it's interesting to start off by saying that there's actually very little art that depicts Hestia in human form, which as we know, from doing these past, It's All Greek To Me episodes, that– that is more of an exception than a rule, there's plenty of statues of, for example, Athena, or Apollo or Zeus and the rest of the Olympians, but for Hestia, she's usually portrayed as what she is the goddess of, which is the hearth. And I actually wanted to talk a little bit about this, and we'll talk about it much more at the end of the episode. But the hearth is kind of something that has disappeared in modern Western society. For those of you who are listening who don't know what a hearth is, it is specifically the like floor of a fireplace, and the extension of that floor, kind of in front of a fireplace. And the hearth until fairly recently, was an incredibly integral part of the home like to the point where generally the hearth represents the household or the home.
AMANDA: Totally, it's one of those things where like, there's a part of everyday speech, like threshold, which you think like, oh, yeah, you step over a threshold, like it's the, you know, the the beginning of something new, it's the place where you walk in, and it's like a function of an actual home that used to exist to hold in the floor, because the floor was dirt and straw, and you wanted to keep the inside dirt from the outside dirt. And it's just not really a thing that exists anymore, except this sort of half-inch lip, you know, of like, where the vinyl of your front door seals out the outside world. And yet, it's something that we talk about all the time, one of my very favorite things, it makes me feel like an archaeologist is noticing and being like, why is that word what it is exactly. And looking on Merriam Webster in the etymology and being like family group text, you'll never know what I learned today. That's what I contribute to my family group text.
JULIA: I love that for you, first and foremost. And I also love when you accurately predict a thing that we're going to talk about later on the episode.
AMANDA: Eyy!
JULIA: My favorite part of these episodes, baby.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So when we say that Hestia is the goddess of the hearth or quite literally the embodiment of the hearth, it means that she's the goddess of the home and for Greeks in particular, the hearth represented warmth, food preparation, sacrificial offerings, all of these incredibly important aspects of Ancient Greek life. And so as the goddess of these things, Hestia is one that like gifts, domestic happiness, and blessings.
AMANDA: Totally. When I hear the word hearth I picture being very chilly and a little bit wet and kind of like having walked through a snowstorm and then you show up somewhere and you get to you know, take off your gloves and warm your hands by a fire and it is like that literal source of heat but also so much more to your point like it is preparing food, it's keeping your kids warm, and safe it's a light in the darkness like it's the most elemental kind of part of like safety and small see civilization that we could possibly come up with.
JULIA: Yeah, in my mind, I think of the hearth as like, you know, when you look at like medieval fiction, whether it's a TV show or a movie or a book and they have that image of like the cauldron over the fire and like you'd go to like put your toast in the like, old fashioned toaster, which was just like a slot that you would put bread in-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -and then hold it over the fire. That's what I think of when I think of the hearth.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: I also think about one of my favorite inventions of like architecture, which is the inglenook, which is like a set of little benches that surround a fireplace that is supposed to be like if your guests come in and are cold, and you're there waiting to be met or greeted, they can sit by the inglenook and get warm.
AMANDA: Totally it's one of the reasons that we both love old house Instagram and why I love the What is this? Subreddit, which just shows like tools and you know, household objects and be like, what was this for? It's amazing. Like, it's so fun. Just the specificity of it is totally amazing.
JULIA: It's so nice. So yeah, when we're talking about Hestia, think of that kind of cozy home feeling, that is what Hestia really should be embodying for you. Because nowadays, we don't really have a hearth. And again, we'll talk a little bit about that later like what Hestia his role would be in a modern-day setting, but that's a hearth. That's what Hestia embodies.
AMANDA: Beautiful, Julia, I feel like I know exactly what I should be thinking and feeling when we talk about her.
JULIA: Yay, I'm glad. Hestia is the hearth for certain but she also was said to dwell in every home. And it was said that she was the one that invented the art of building houses and then gifted that art to humans.
AMANDA: I mean, pretty big deal.
JULIA: Architecture, very important, keeping us out of the cold, that's from Hestia. That's all her thing. Also, importantly, to that Hestia would receive the first offering of every sacrifice that was made in a household. And the reason why is a story that we'll talk about a little bit later. So she was given a share of honor, quote, unquote, a share of honor every time food was cooked, or when an offering was burnt even to other gods and goddesses. So if a main offering was made to let's say, like Hermes, or Apollo, Hestia would get the first part of that offering because it was an offering that was being done in her hearth in her house.
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah, dude.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: This also feels like the kind of thing where I don't know like in a board game or something, you sort of select it like a unsexy, but essential role or square, you know, or like game tile, and then be like, Well, I'm sorry, if you need a if you need wood to make any of your metals, you gotta come to me.
JULIA: That's a real Settlers of Catan thing, and I appreciate you.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So if a household was to accidentally extinguish their hearthfire, this was considered an insult to Hestia and a failure of both domestic and religious roles of the home.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Yeah. So it was like, it's a big deal, you had to keep that fire burning, the only time one was allowed to kind of let the fire die in a particular like religious instance, is when a member of the household passed away, and then the hearth would be put out and then ritualistically, relit.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Also somewhat related to that when a child was born into a household in order to be accepted as part of the family, the child was walked in a circle around the family hearth, and a prayer was offered up to Hestia, which would have her recognize the child as a new member of the household.
AMANDA: That's amazing. That's got real telling the bees energy, and I'm all about it.
JULIA: Can you tell people about telling the bees for those who don't know about that folk tradition?
AMANDA: Yeah, there's a whole kind of constellation of folk traditions about bees and beekeeping, which is amazing and might be worth a, an episode at some point in the future. But the most essential version of this is that when someone dies in a household, you let the bees know, because it is bad luck, insulting can impact their production, if you don't keep them in the loop about what's going on in the household.
JULIA: It's almost like having to invite the fey to the wedding is letting the bees know, like, just so you know, there's less people in our household now.
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Interesting. I love that. I love traditions that are like letting people know that either a new person has joined a household or someone has left a household.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. It's just like, kind of a beautiful thing and nowadays, it's just like an email.
AMANDA: I know. But I mean, it's so true. And like any of us who have experienced loss know that it is a fundamentally different home family unit, friends circle phase of life in some ways. And so the idea here that you– you know, extinguish the engine that ran the old house and you make a new one for the house that remains or the house that has a new baby in it like that just makes intuitive sense in some part of my body and soul-
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: -that I just totally like two thumbs up. I totally agree with it.
JULIA: Well, that's again, this is something that we're going to talk about later in the episode. But Hestia is all about kind of beginnings and ends of liminal spaces of thresholds. So I can see why that kind of scratches your brain in the right way because it's absolutely true to who she is as a goddess.
AMANDA: Hell yeah. I'm loving this already.
JULIA: Yes, good, I'm glad. So Hestia was a goddess that was not worshipped in her own temples, like many of the other Olympians, but rather she was present in every temple because she represented the sacred fires that burned there. And again, it's this idea that if you are putting up an offering, you always have to put an offering towards Hestia as well. It's her like divine right to accept the first offering because she is the flame and so the flame devours the first offering that is put to it.
AMANDA: I'm really curious about kind of stories that personify her because I can see lots of gods feeling territorial about this.
JULIA: Interesting. Yeah, I will tell you the story as to why this is the case in a little bit, but you'll have to tell me whether you think that it is a territorial thing or not, alright?
AMANDA: Cool.
JULIA: So outside of the home and temple, she was also considered the seat of government, which was called the Prytaneum. So when the Ancient Greeks would establish colonies, the colony was not considered official until a flame from Hestia is public hearth was carried to the new settlement and use to light that public hearth.
AMANDA: Amazing, it's a much better way than like, sorry, I put a flag on a mountain and it's mine now, like, you know, the state using tradition and ritual and spirituality to-
JULIA: Settle and colonize, not great.
AMANDA: Exactly, no, and to like justify their actions. But it's a good one. It's a good ploy like that, that makes an intuitive sense to me that just flags do not.
JULIA: Yeah, and I mean, this was really important because the public hearth was seen as a sacred asylum of any ancient Greek town. So it was where like, members of the state would receive official guests and ambassadors, really so like it was– it was a huge important deal to have your public hearth and like, have meetings there and stuff like that. It was literally the seat of government.
AMANDA: I really excited to read more about this personally, because I've always been really interested in communal ovens, you know, in places that exist to this day for people to you know, pool resources and have more capacity for baking bread, you know, than they would have in their individual homes. It makes complete sense and is more kind of economical to do collectively than individually. And so I'm very curious to kind of draw those three lines.
JULIA: Yeah, absolutely. So the Greek statesman, Aeschines, he highlighted her importance and the importance of the public hearth in his writing on the embassy, saying, quote, “The hearth of the Prytaneum was regarded as the common hearth of the state and a statue of Hestia was there. and in the senate-house there was an altar of the goddess.” So like, much like in the house. If this public hearth went out, it was considered an ill omen and an insult to Hestia and it was required that a ritual be done in order to relight the flame in this ritual- This is so cool to me. In this ritual, it was considered quote, 'improper' for this flame to be sourced from, quote, 'common sparks of flame', and instead, the fire had to be lit by quote, 'pure and unpolluted rays of the sun'. And this is all according to Plutarch so this was achieved, Amanda by using concave mirrors to concentrate light and light these flames.
AMANDA: Yes! Dang, I mean, come on. No matches for Hestia, you use glass, baby.
JULIA: Science, baby.
AMANDA: You use expensive scientific glass from Helios himself.
JULIA: Exactly. Exactly. I'm so glad you understand how cool that is. Because it's so freakin' cool.
AMANDA: It's amazing. It's so good.
JULIA: So let's get to now Hestia's role in mythology, like the rest of the first generation of Olympians Hestia was the child of Cronus. And Rhea. Interestingly, she is the firstborn of the Olympians. And when freed from Cronus' stomach by Zeus, who was technically her youngest brother, she was the last to be released because she was the first being by Cronus. So this kind of creates this sort of interesting dynamic where he, she is simultaneously the oldest and youngest sibling of the first generation of Olympians.
AMANDA: Pretty cool.
JULIA: It is pretty neat.
AMANDA: Also, for Julia, this is going to be a Venn diagram of about five people. are you ready for this?
JULIA: Let's go.
AMANDA: So the joke is LIFO or FIFO? That's the question. Okay. Let me explain the joke for everyone that's not in the five people.
JULIA: Please.
AMANDA: You know, capital gains tax, which is like the government taxes you less in the US on money you make from the stock market, because if you had the money to buy stocks, they want to reward you for being rich and make you stay rich, versus income tax. Yeah. So when you buy stocks, you have the choice for some reason, because the government doesn't tell you what to do, where you're like, oh, either, you know, if you own 100 shares of a company, and you bought one of them 15 years ago, and one of them yesterday, and you sell a share. It's a question, right? It's like, oh, well, I mean, did I buy that Apple stock for $5 in 1980. And now I made $5,000 or did I buy it yesterday and actually lost a little bit of money because yesterday it was slightly higher than it was today. The government's like you do whatever math works for you, bud, just stay rich motherfucker. And so you get to choose whether you are taxed in a last in first out basis or a first in first out basis. So every stock you sell it is both the oldest and youngest of your stocks until you tell the government, hey buddy, I prefer to make or to lose money right now for my own personal tax situation.
JULIA: Our government is bad.
AMANDA: Our government is bad.
JULIA: Government's real bad.
AMANDA: Economics and accounting majors out there, I see you, and let's proceed.
JULIA: So much like the US government treats rich people-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -the fact that she's simultaneously the oldest and youngest sibling of the first generation of Olympians actually sort of places her above and apart from the rest of her siblings, which I think is part of the reason that she's often kind of this forgotten Olympian, right? So part of the reason as well is that she much like Athena and Artemis swore to remain a quote unquote, "eternal virgin". Again, as we discussed in earlier episodes, virginity has more to do with the fact that she like chose not to be married rather than like the societal expectations of like never having sex in the situation. So there are some stories before pledging this vow of eternal virginity was pursued by Apollo and Poseidon but she went to Zeus and was like, I would like to not be involved with any of that. And Zeus is like, sure, you can do that. And so she made her vow she placed her hand on Zeus' head and being that vow and Zeus in exchange gave her the high honor of feeding and maintaining the fires of Olympus' hearth.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: So like, this is a big deal because this is Olympus is the home of the gods they had fire before even the mortals had fire, right? So this is an interesting separation because some say that Hestia chose this for herself. Sometimes it said that she gave up her spot for Dionysus, though this is like kind of like a discrepancy in the list of Olympians around the time of Plato. And there's no like actual, like primary sources that indicate that she actually gave up the seat but it's kind of one of those things where it's like, oh, shit, we have 13 even though we said there was 12, what do we do now? Hestia, maybe gave up her seat, who knows?
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Scholar Walter Berkut believed that she kind of was not included among the ranks of the Olympians, because of the immovable nature of the hearth, which he claimed rendered Hestia unable to take part in the procession of the gods, nor the quote other antics of the Olympians, which I was like, that's the best way to describe it to be honest, they're all getting into antics.
AMANDA: Yup, that's about right.
JULIA: But this is interesting because it puts Hestia into this position where she is quote unquote, like "above" the other Olympians, and thus does not have to get into the same shenanigans as the rest. But it also means like I said before, that she's not super present in the adventures of the gods in Greek mythology.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: She is like almost entirely absent from the writings of Homer except for like a few passing mentions, but never in the action itself. And because of this, some historians believe that she predates many, if not all, of the Olympians coming from older Hellenistic beliefs and ritualistic worship surrounding the sacred power of the hearth
AMANDA: Makes total sense. And it feels like again, the engine of society that would be worshipped pretty dang quick-
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: -before we get to like wine and the fun stuff.
JULIA: Yeah, I mean, listen, wine is real fun. We get it like-
AMANDA: We get it.
JULIA: We figure it out agricultural eventually like that's a whole thing. But like we gathered around fires and cooked food around the fire before anything. We created shelters for ourselves before anything, so it makes sense that Hestia had the initial worship if that happens to be true.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Now we're going to touch on her worship in Rome, which is kind of a first for an It's All Greek To Me. We'll do a little bit of her poetry corner and have some more thoughts about the hearth in general, but first, let's go grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[midroll]
AMANDA: Julia, it's the refill,
JULIA: Amanda, Hey, how's it going?
AMANDA: Good. I have some mulled cider simmering over my hearth and I wonder if you want any.
JULIA: I would love some I don't care if it's 80 degrees out when we're recording this. I want some cider, baby.
AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, listen, cold cider great as well.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: But mulling cider on the stove is a real a real hearth, heartwarming drink for me.
JULIA: A heart and heartwarming drink. I love it.
AMANDA: Julia, we would love to offer some cider to our newest patron Dierdre, excellent name, love it, Deirdre. Please thank your parents for me or you if you chose and of course, our supporting producer-level patrons who support at patreon.com/spiritspodcast sustains us that's the hearth fire that will never go out for the show. And if it does, it wouldn't be a thing anymore. So listen, put your kindling on the fire we're not burning your money exactly. But you are paying independent artists to create a show that you really enjoy. This metaphor is falling apart.
JULIA: You pay my heating bill so that's something.
AMANDA: That's true, you do. Yeah, I have paid for my own heat and it's expensive. Thank you.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Our supporting produce level patrons, thank you, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Little Vomit Spiders Running Around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi. And the legend level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Clara, Iron Havoc, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: Every time the legend-level patron show up to a party we do parade them around the hearth to make sure Hestia realizes that they are members of our household.
AMANDA: Exactly, Julia. So true and remind me as you've been curling up around your metaphorical fire and hearth which probably these days is your air conditioner. What have you been reading, watching or listening to?
JULIA: I have been reading Cemetery Boys by Aiden Thomas. Oh boy, Amanda, is it good?
AMANDA: You message me about this and that's how do I know it's really good.
JULIA: It's so, so freakin good, if you like queer High School romances if you like Mexican folklore if you like gender-confirming goddesses of death. This is the book for you.
AMANDA: Hell, yes.
JULIA: Someone falls in love with a ghost. It's great.
AMANDA: I love that so so much. And by the way, if folks are looking to make plans, just about, I don't know, three and a half weeks from now, we have great news. We are doing our first in-person Eric, Julia, and Amanda live show in more than two years. It's at Caveat, New York City on July 15th. But great news, we have a professionally operated and filmed stream available to you as well. So you can go right now to spiritspodcast.com/live to get tickets to either come in person to Caveat where the audience will be vaccinated and masked or to view it online and or to do the VOD. The video on-demand version afterward. If you are working or sleeping at that time.
JULIA: Honestly is going to be so much fun. I have been planning the games that we will be playing for the live show. You guys are in trouble. It's going to be great.
AMANDA: Oh, man. Oh, I can't wait. Oh, it's gonna be really good, guys. No excuses. If you're eating, sleeping, working at that time, come watch the VOD. If you're in New York City come in person. And if you're not in New York City, if you're in any city that isn't New York City, watch the live stream it's going to be so much fun. It's gonna be camera angles, professional mixing, it's going to be seriously the most premium livestream I've ever been a part of.
JULIA: That's true. That's true of me as well.
AMANDA: So the link is in the description to buy those tickets or go to spiritspodcast.com/live.
JULIA: Now Amanda, I really love when we get to talk about The Newest Olympian which is Mike Schubert's reading of the Percy Jackson series for the first time I love when they coincide with our It's All Greek To Me episodes. It's almost like fate, and I think that if you're enjoying this episode, you should go check out The Newest Olympian, our friend Mike chats with longtime Percy Jackson fans to cover a portion of the series and they recap the plot they dive into Greek mythology they sing the praises of Percy's incredible snark, I am not a Percy Jackson fan only because I missed out on the book series I have been meaning to read them truly, I truly have. Mike is absolutely probably going to convince me to read them at some point. So check it out new episodes every Monday search for The Newest Olympian in your podcast app, or go to the thenewestolympian.com to start listening.
AMANDA: And naturally, it is time to thank our sponsors. And listen, I know that trying new things can be intimidating. Before I started using the Calm App, I was incredibly intimidated about meditation. I thought hmm, alone with my thoughts for two minutes? Sounds bad, don't want to do that. But honestly, having an app guide me through mindfulness and meditation has been really, really helpful. You can start with some help, you're not just starting from scratch starting from nothing, Calm can really help you do that. And whether you are there for the meditation and mindfulness for the sleep stories for the soundscapes for just kind of giving yourself unexcused and a few minutes a day to like wind down to be present to be mindful to enjoy your life a little more, Calm is a great way to do it.
JULIA: Yeah, and for listeners of the show Calm is offering an exclusive offer of 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/spirits go to c a l m.com/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to coms entire library that's column.com/spirits So Amanda, I recently moved into a new house and one of the like biggest treats for us is we're going to be buying a king mattress.
AMANDA: And Julia, do I understand correctly that when Brooklinen sent us some sheets more than a year and a half ago, you got king size sheets anticipating that you're going to be able to use them on your king sized bed?
JULIA: Wow, Amanda, read me to filth, because yes, I did do that.
AMANDA: Yay!
JULIA: Because I loved my queen-size Brooklinen sheets so so much and knowing that I was going to get a king mattress eventually in the future. I was like, well, I can't like downgrade my sheets when I'm living the life of luxury in a king mattress. No, I have to have my buttery soft so yes, I did order a king-sized sheets collection from Brooklinen for my future king-size bed.
AMANDA: And now the future is here. I'm so proud of you and honestly listen, they're beautiful, most days I just kind of like flop my duvet back on top of my bed because I've been liberated from top sheet ;ife and it is so wonderful just to like look at them and touch them and get back into bed at the end of the day. I am a hot sleeper it is hot outside right now and Brooklinen's buttery softs keep me nice and cool all night.
JULIA: Also, I want to talk about their beach and pool essentials because it is beach weather now. Brooklinen has some incredible, absolutely gorgeous beach towels that are ideal for a relaxed summer day. They have these awesome prints that are kind of inspired by like water with sand and waves and they give that kind of like 70s free flow and vibe which actually matches the aesthetic of my house very well. And for those of you who are listening in New York, come see and feel the comfort in real life. You can now shop Brooklinen sheets, towels and so much more in store at Williamsburg and the West Village. So don't miss out Brooklinen summer savings event is coming soon. If you're listening after the sale, you can still save visit brooklinen.com and use promo code Spirits for $20 off your purchase of $100 plus free shipping. That's b r o o k l i n e n.com promo code Spirits that is b r o o k l i n e n.com. And enter the promo code Spirits for $20 off your purchase today. Brooklinen, they're the curators a comfort.
AMANDA: And finally, Julia, now a word from our sponsor. BetterHelp. Burnout is serious. I think when it's hot outside, it's a good reminder that just like your phone or your AC unit or an appliance outside in the sun, you can get overheated from working too much from not taking breaks from too much care and time spent on other people's needs and not your own. And for me that definitely feels like being just kind of overwhelmed and frustrated when anything new happens and it can be a good thing, it can be a friend reaching out it can be making plans it can be remembering that I have something on the calendar for the future and my instinctual reaction is just like no thank you.
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: Right exactly. It's oh no instead of oh fun, like past me thought this would be a good idea. And I know I would enjoy it if I did it. But right now I am so just burned out tired, nothing left in the tank that it feels like, oh, no.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: I'm all up in here.
JULIA: I feel that.
AMANDA: And one of the ways that I recharge that I put things back in my tank that I help deal with preventing burnout is therapy, and I do my therapy every single week, every Wednesday morning through BetterHelp. BetterHelp is a customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. It is much more affordable than in person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's better h e l p.com/spirits.. And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: Now, Amanda, I know you are heating up some cider on your stovetop right now. But I found a cocktail called the honey and hearth which I feel like totally is a Hestia thing. 100%.
AMANDA: Oh my god.
JULIA: So it's actually a really interesting combo of bourbon, ginger, liqueur, yellow, chartreuse, and then a key ingredient which is a smoked cinnamon stick.
AMANDA: I have never loved any combination of words more.
JULIA: It's just it's so cool. It's like a really complex herbaceous and also smoky cocktail kind of reminds you of being at home. It reminds me during the summer at least it really reminds me of like having a bonfire outside on a day, but you could still smell all the flowers that have been blooming all day as well. It's like, oh.
AMANDA: Yes, man.
JULIA: So nice.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: Before we get back to Hestia I actually want to talk about her Roman analog which is Vesta. Hmm. So as most of us know, the Romans borrowed liberally from the Greek mythology in developing their own ethos and as such, most of the gods and goddesses of Greek mythology had similar figures in Roman mythology. Hestia's analog was Vesta, who much like Hestia was not often depicted in art and very rarely in human form. And perhaps the most notable part of Vesta was her priestesses who are the Vestal virgins. They were considered kind of this like fundamental aspect to the security and the continuance of the Roman Empire.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Which is saying something.
AMANDA: They do.
JULIA: Because the Roman Empire thought a lot of itself.
AMANDA: It sure did.
JULIA: Girls would typically enter the priestesshood in their youth, usually somewhere between the ages 6 to 10. Sometimes they were forced into it by family members who couldn't support them. Sometimes they just felt the call and they chose to go you know, that kind of thing. But enjoying the priestess hood, they would take a 30-year vow of chastity.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Yeah. So during their time as priestesses, they would study and observe state rituals, which were forbidden to be known by anyone outside of the Vestal virgins.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: Which meant like no men could know about it, which is cool.
AMANDA: I mean, yeah, a high price of admission to pending but pretty, pretty cool. Strong The Giver vibes.
JULIA: Interesting, explain.
AMANDA: In terms of just like children having some kind of like a special kind of insight and also people having knowledge that would really impact kind of how others behave in the state but the knowledge is restricted to a small group it's a vibe it's not a– not a thesis statement.
JULIA: I get where you're coming from I didn't put two and two together first that's why I was like explain that to me.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So, love that the Vestals were really important because like I said, they tended to the sacred fire which was again never allowed to go out because it represented the eternity of the Roman state, the province just like man, so fold themselves as just an empire, huh?
AMANDA: I know I've kind of resisted learning more about Ancient Rome a because it's such a like Costco dad subject-
JULIA: Truly.
AMANDA: -where like, every book at a Costco is like a DVD set of the West Wing or like a History of the Roman Empire. And also because they- yeah, they really like did the did conquering. That is what they did. That was their mission, hearts, minds, and lands.
JULIA: The Vestal virgins were luckily not out conquering, even though they were in charge of keeping the eternity of the Roman Empire going. During the 30 years of their priesthood, they would spend 10 years first as a student, then 10 years as a servant, and then 10 years as a teacher. And then after her 30-year service was over, a vessel was allowed to retire was given a pension, and was allowed to marry and in fact, it was considered good luck by Romans to marry a Vestal.
AMANDA: I mean, it's great luck because she sounds like an educated badass. I love that.
JULIA: Exactly. And she brings her own money to the table, which is also very good.
AMANDA: Hell, yeah.
JULIA: Strong independent woman spent 30 years learning state secrets. Now I'm just picturing like a CIA agent who is also a Vestal virgin, which is very funny to me. So one of the kind of well-known facts about the Vestals in like in terms of like Costco dad, well-known facts was that it was improper to spill their blood, which I feel like makes a lot of sense. But if a Vestal was to break her vow of chastity, she was punished by being buried alive.
AMANDA: Okay, so I think we should take a few steps back and kind of reconsider. That is, that's a lot.
JULIA: Yeah. So basically, they chose this execution technique, because one, it allowed them to get around the like, you can't shed the blood of a Vestal, and also, because it is such a, I guess, I would say, passive execution, where basically they have this argument where it's like, well, if Vesta wanted to save this woman, she could do so. It's not like an immediate death or anything like that. Vesta could step in and intervene and I think there are like, a couple of instances where, like, they managed to survive the execution, and they're like, ah, Vesta saved her. She must not have done the thing that she said she did.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: Yeah, so not great.
AMANDA: Not great, but also kind of cool that women were, you know, important enough to execute in that way.
JULIA: Yes, I agree. And also speaking of how important the Vestals were as like powers of the state, they had the power to free condemned prisoners and slaves just by touching them. So like, if a person was sentenced to death, and they saw a Vestal on the way to their execution, they were automatically pardoned and set free.
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: Which like, gives you a lot of power if you are one of these priestesses because if you decide like, oh, I think this person was like, unfairly tried, or I think that like justice was not served here. All you have to do is like walk to the like place that they are taking him from the prison to the execution area, and just be like, nah, actually set him free. That's like, that's power.
AMANDA: That's awesome. That is all I would do if I was a Vestal virgin.
JULIA: Yeah, same. Same. I would stop corporal punishment. Yeah. 100%.
AMANDA: And free all enslaved persons. Yeah, totally.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. Vesta was also connected to the like, liminality, and the literal threshold of the house, which you guessed before you interpreted you you were touched by the Oracle of Delphi there a little bit.
AMANDA: Yeah, you- you had the look, which was, did I share my outline with Amanda? The answer's no.
JULIA: Yeah, this is one of my favorite fun fact. So as the connection to the literal threshold of the house. As such, brides were not allowed to touch the threshold of a new home and to avoid committing sacrilege by kicking the threshold which was considered a sacred object. And so that's where we get the modern tradition of grooms carrying brides over the threshold.
AMANDA: Julia, my depression is cured. This is the most serotonin I felt and weeks!
JULIA: Isn't that so good? I love that so much. I read that and I was like, [gasp]
AMANDA: Amazing.
JULIA: It's so so good. The scholar Brian Clark kind of points out in his writing that the Vestal virgins kind of held this burden of maintaining the state which I think is really interesting because it was really a burden like if they didn't learn the state secrets well enough if they didn't maintain this fire that was maintaining the state, the whole system would have crumbled, right?
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So he writes, "Hence, the archetype of Hestia changed from the Hellenic sense of sacred center to the Roman idea of protecting the Empire, evolving from a sense of honoring internal space to the necessity to protect the outer place."
AMANDA: There you go.
JULIA: And this reminds me kind of, of that discussion that we had in the Ares episode about how Ares and Mars differed. So like Ares was a coward in Greek Mythology and he transformed to this kind of heroic figure and literal father of the Roman founding myth, because that was the like propaganda that was needed by the Romans at the time, which vastly differed from the needs of the Ancient Greeks. And I think that's 100% true with what Hestia represented the Ancient Greeks versus what Vesta represented to the Romans.
AMANDA: This is so brilliant, I love this so much. My mind is just like racing, because you're totally right. I mean, the project of the state is to say, well, without us, you're unprotected. And yes, you need to sacrifice some liberties, right, are some choices or some money, but in exchange, this is what you get, there are straightforward and equitable versions of that. But there's also you know, the kind of like worries of dependence on one central thing instead of the, like, diffuse interdependence of actual community. It's saying, oh, you know, it's, it's dangerous to, you know, to sort of venerate and call sacred the hearth you have in your home and the hearth that your community shares and your communal oven. So instead, like, no, no, no, like, let us you know, let us take the dues. Let us take over the space, you know, you need the organization and structure of the Roman Empire.
JULIA: Yeah. Absolutely nailed what I was going for with that. I have, I couldn't have said it better myself. Talking about kind of the liminality and thresholds and moving away from Vesta back to Hestia. herself. She was often invoked alongside of Hermes, who we've we've talked about before, was also this god of the thresholds as well. So Hermes, represented like business life and the community outside of the home where Hestia represented domestic life. And if you think about it, like they really acted as these two sides of the coin, like the kind of mild mannered, even-headed Hestia is playing direct contrast to the like trickster nature of Hermes. And this leads to a little bit of our poetry corner, Amanda for Hestia.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: With the Homeric Hymn to Hestia.
AMANDA: Julia, I'm serious, I can close on that threshold realization for a good couple of weeks. So if you want to save poetry- no, no. I'm kidding. I want it.
AMANDA: I got you, I got you.
JULIA: "[1] Hestia, in the high dwellings of all, both deathless gods and men who walk on earth, you have gained an everlasting abode and highest honor: glorious is your portion and your right. [5] For without you mortals hold no banquet, —where one does not duly pour sweet wine in offering to Hestia both first and last. And you, Slayer of Argus, Son of Zeus and Maia, messenger of the blessed gods, bearer of the golden rod, [10] giver of good, be favorable and help us, you and Hestia, the worshipful and dear. [9] Come and dwell in this glorious house in friendship together; [11] for you two, well knowing the noble actions of men, aid on their wisdom and their strength. Hail, Daughter of Cronos, and you also, Hermes, bearer of the golden rod! Now I will remember you and another song also."
AMANDA: Good stuff.
JULIA: I know. I think it's really interesting that these two are summoned together. Hestia as this kind of immovable center of the home, while Hermes is the like, literal god of travel and messenger of the gods. But if you think about it, Hestia's domain begins where Hermes' ends, which is the threshold of the home. But in this hand, like they are like these two divinities, who are sharing a space that is inhabited by human beings, making them both important to those who are worshipping them. So like Hermes is the road, he is public institutions, he's the town square in the market, where you interact not only with your community but also with strangers. And then Hestia in comparison is the home which is like this place that is the intimacy of immediate family where a stranger cannot penetrate when the threshold is close to them, which like is also interesting because Hermes is also the patron god of thieves, which is another thought for another time, but like, I just I think it's really interesting to invoke them both because they are the literal threshold Hermes stops where Hestia ends.
AMANDA: Totally and I mean, they go hand in hand, like what defines travel versus being you know, itinerant, it's having a home to return to and that's why you know, society is fine with the [39:47] that like cosmopolitan walker the person just kind of like traveling the world and observing what's there and why society villainizes people without a home to return to like the behaviors can be similar people can look similar. But there's a difference like we criminalize loitering and we say, good on you for you know leisure and enjoying public spaces defined by do you have a home to return to so it makes complete sense to me that these gods find purchase with each other.
JULIA: Right. And I think that is something that we have lost when we have taken away kind of the public hearth, you know what I mean?
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Like that was a place where people could gather where not only was it the seat of the state, the like center of the town or the city, but also it was a place where you would meet with strangers is a place where you could find aid, it is a place that you could like, go to for warmth on a cold day.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And I think that it's a little sad that we have lost those in our communities.
AMANDA: Totally. It's a third place. It's a commons. Lots of people have written very, very smart stuff about why this is really necessary and privatization isn't the answer.
JULIA: Yeah, absolutely.
AMANDA: All gods are socialists, Julia.
JULIA: That's true. That's true. All the god should be socialists.
AMANDA: Capitalism has no gods and that's why it has no place in this podcast.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. And so this actually really leads into my final thoughts here, which is kind of talking about the loss of the hearth in modern Western society, right? So with the invention and implementation of like central heating and electricity, the need for a hearth has like all but disappeared from the modern Western home. So we kind of lack this place of like central warmth. And a lot of people nowadays, like they're not even comfortable with fire in their homes at all. Like Amanda, I don't know how your mom felt about candles, but I had to fight my mother to let me burn candles in my room.
AMANDA: No candles allowed and listen, like I have asthma, this is good for me without having to rely on wood smoke to heat my home is good for me. But I see what you mean. And I think I have some ideas and recommendations for how people can bring back a bit of a feeling of the hearth to their home.
JULIA: Yeah, exactly. I personally own way too many candles, that's my way of doing it. And like you know, like growing up having a fireplace especially a wood burning fireplace was considered a novelty for a lot of people I feel like rather than a necessity and so we've definitely grown up lacking and quote-unquote "eternal flame" or sacred center of our home whether that's like a literal religious center for the home or a like, you know, secular like sacred center for your home, which I think makes it a little difficult sometimes for us in studying Hestia to understand why she was so important to the Ancient Greek society. So for the Greeks, Hestia represented that like shared space, it was the communal fire where friends, relatives, even strangers could gather.
AMANDA: I think that's awesome and it's why I feel so strongly about making my home beautiful and kind of beautifying as little daily actions just like using the mirror in the sun instead of a common spark to light that communal hearth fire. I have a special little dish for my ring at night. I have a you know beautiful little soap holder for my my soap and my sponge I, you know use a big silver spoon that my grandma gave me for my stock pot instead of just a plain wooden or plastic one. It's those little things of like honoring and making special my daily life that I find presents in and stuff that can move from place to place and isn't dependent on you know, having an owning a home or you know, having a certain amount or type of space.
JULIA: Yeah, so for me, you know, Jake and I, we recently bought a home.
AMANDA: Yeah, you're setting up a house.
JULIA: I know it's very exciting. But like one of the biggest things was when we were looking for homes, I wanted to find a place that had good flow from our kitchen to our living space, right? Because for Jake and I like I know the homes that we have lived in the kitchen is very much the heart of our home and so like I wanted to be able to like if one of us is cooking still have a conversation while the other one is like hanging out on the couch or like you know doing something like reading a book or watching TV.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So it was like really important to find that flow because I knew that the kitchen was going to be the heart of our house and I think that is our sacred center you know, that's where our eternal flame is.
AMANDA: I totally agree with you. That was Eric's and my only requirement went apartment hunting as well in New York City in 20, you know? 19 and we were like well they will we can get but the one thing we knew we wanted is a combo kitchen living space because just like you're saying you know us spending quality time together you know building a home building a life is taking care of our physical needs while nourishing each other it's physical and it's spiritual. Like anyone from a from a rice or potato-based culture like listen we totally understand you know the value of you nurse somebody and you show them care and you give them spiritual comfort by starting with their physical comfort.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And making sure that their needs are met and you know, a warm fire a full bowl, there's nothing like it and whether that looks like a wood burning fireplace in your home or a kitchen with herbs on your windowsill where you can look out and have a little moment in the sun and connect with yourself or a you know kitchen living room where you can talk to your housemates or your partner as you're making breakfast or lunch or dinner. That's it. That's connection.
JULIA: That's it. I also want to do a quick shout-out to our researcher for this episode, Ryan, who was providing me with some modern analogues to both Hestia and what the modern hearth would look like, and also suggested that Amazon's Alexa is kind of the modern analog for Hestia. Because like you invoke her name to get her attention. And smart devices like Alexa have kind of in general change the way that we orient our internal lives as well as our homes and I'm just like, that is both horrifying and great point.
AMANDA: Ryan is brilliant, and I'm very excited to have researchers on the team have because of this, this very thing like yeah, and I remember seeing an art project in DC, I'll try to find the name for the the Patreon notes for this episode patreon.com/spiritspodcast, but it was an artwork that sort of got the perspective of an alien coming down to earth and looking at you know, our cities and our homes and kind of you know, that that sort of now cliche thing of, you know, what would aliens think of human beings based on our architecture or our homes, and one of those things was, you know, venerating the TV because for lots of us, the TV has pride of place. And listen, I think that's a pretty bullshit criticism. A lot of the time screens are great TV is great, I don't really buy into the moral panic of like, oh, you know, screens are taking the place of human connection, because like, hey, there's no humans around here I need to connect with I'm going to find my people on TV. Like, that's a real thing. But I do think it's a really lovely invitation to ask how we can make our physical circumstances reflect what we value. And again, that can be a cute case for your phone, you know, that like reflects one of your favorite characters or things that you love. I just think that like beautifying our space and making our spaces reflect our personalities is so often dismissed as childish or feminine, or a kind of like, bonus thing that you do once your serious work is done. And it's not seeing yourself reflected in the world and having your environment echo back to you. Things that make you feel safe and calm and fun is a fundamental thing that everybody deserves. So listen, whether you know, tech up newspaper clippings, you know, to your wall with tape, or, you know, finally paint that like statement wall, or frame that artwork or buy that plant. I'm encouraging you.
JULIA: Yeah, I mean, that's what makes a house a home, in my opinion, is putting your personal touches on there, as Jake likes to say, you're changing the energy of the space that you're in.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: And you are making it feel like it's yours. And that is probably something that Hestia would absolutely give her blessing to.
AMANDA: Nothing more Hestia than that baby.
JULIA: Nothing more Hestia than that. So that is our sometimes forgotten Olympian Hestia, who nonetheless plays both an incredibly important role in the Ancient Greeks and also hopefully, today.
AMANDA: Julia, I was a blank slate I was an empty hearth and now, I got a little fire in me.
JULIA: Yeah. So I hope that all of our conspirators who are listening or joining us today have a little spark in them today as well and remember as always to–
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[outro]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
AMANDA: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes goodies. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more. Like recipe cards with alcoholic and nonalcoholic for every single episode, directors' commentaries, real physical gifts, and more.
JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
AMANDA: Above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please text one friend about us. That's the very best way to help keep us growing.
JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KM