Episode 149: Haunted Dolls
/Break out your ghost detectors and specter-o-meters. Because we’re talking about HAUNTED DOLLS this week! Julia breaks down the historical links to the haunted dolls of today, and then lays out some of her favorite unique examples to scare Amanda.
This week, Julia recommends the new podcast Passenger List!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about child death, car accidents, possession, and systematic racism.
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits podcast. A boozy diamond to mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is episode 149, haunted dolls.
Julia: Thank you for letting me talk about haunted dolls for my birthday.
Amanda: You're welcome, Julia. Happy birthday plus one.
Julia: Thank you. Plus one, yes. As we're recording it, it is my birthday but if it is October 9th when you're listening to this episode, it's the day after my birthday and that doesn't mean anything.
Amanda: I've always been jealous that on your birthday you can do fun outdoor activities and also dress in a cool fall away versus in the depths of February, one cannot.
Julia: But we drink hot toddies and we can sit by a fireplace for your birthday.
Amanda: That's very true. That's very true. Speaking of which, Julia, tell us what drinks you made as we record this episode for your birthday.
Julia: Yes. We talk about them a little bit more after the refill in this episode but I made Dirty Shirley's, which is a Shirley Temple but reserve your judgment.
Amanda: Nasty.
Julia: Yeah, no, it's extremely delicious. No it's very, very delicious. I made them with a hibiscus grenadine. It was extremely good. And because haunted dolls is like a childhood thing that is also fucked up, I figured Shirley Temple that's also fucked up, is a great way to do it.
Amanda: Classic. Do you know who I would serve hibiscus grenadine to and be like, listen, have more if you want, you deserve it?
Julia: Is that our new patrons?
Amanda: Our new patrons. Cutie, [Same 00:01:16], Addie, Dennis, Austin, Molly, Charlotte, Emily, Allen, Tarra and Nikki who join the distinguished ranks of our supporting producer level patrons. Phillip, [Ior 00:01:24], Megan, Skyler, Samantha, Sammy, Josie, Neil, Jessica, and Phil Fresh and Julia, those legend level patrons. Audra, Chris, Mark, Cody, Mr Folk, Sarah and Jack Murray.
Julia: Gosh. I would save you all from haunted dolls. I would take a haunted doll into my possession so that you no longer had to have it.
Amanda: Damn.
Julia: That's saying something, right?
Amanda: I'm a little jealous. That's a lot.
Julia: Yeah. I will put myself out there for our patrons.
Amanda: They deserve it. Speaking of which Julia, if you're like, I don't know, babysitting a regular baby or a haunted doll, what should we be reading, watching, listening to this week.
Julia: On the ride here to the studio, I started listening to Passenger List, which is written by our friend of the show, Lauren Shippen. Good, good friend. It's incredible. It's really, really good. It's got Kelly Marie Tran from episode eight of star Wars. It's the good one in my opinion. People on the internet will yell at me I'm sure but-
Amanda: Extremely great. She's wonderful.
Julia: Also Patti LuPone is in it.
Amanda: I can't.
Julia: It's just, that's a selling point for me always and forever. It's like, yeah, you know this thing and just sounds really dull and they're like, yeah but Patti LuPone is in. I'm like, sign me up for that thing.
Amanda: Yeah, I don't care. I'm here for it.
Julia: It's extremely good though.
Amanda: Extremely good. Little spooky.
Julia: Little spooky. Little mystery.
Amanda: Good stuff. Good stuff. Speaking of spookiness Julia, the day after this episode comes out, we are going to be in Boston, perhaps the spookiest place near us to spend some time in October in New England and we're going to be doing a marketing workshop at Harvard, which is exciting because they rejected me when I was 18 from college-
Julia: Still not bitter about it. It's fine. It's fine.
Amanda: ... So I'm just saying I get to lecture there now so that's great. And then we're doing our multitude live show. Yay
Julia: Yes. We're going to be playing a very fun game that I've invented called trick or treat. I won't tell you the details because we want you to come see the show and it's going to be a lot of fun but Amanda is going to be put to a spooky test and I'm excited to see how she does.
Amanda: I cannot wait. Julia is also going to be participating as a, let's say guest of honor in the final segment of the night and we are so excited. It's the hosts you love from multitude talking about subject matter that we love in new and inventive ways. It is super exciting. You will really enjoy yourself I promise. We'll have much there for sale. We'll have an exclusive tour poster, all kinds of stuff, you can come shake our hands, watch us drink beer at the bar afterward, give us a hug if you're into that, have us sign your books, which I'll sign any book pretty much.
Julia: Yes, Amanda will sign any book. I've seen it happen.
Amanda: But I'll sign any tangentially spirit related book. But we are so so so excited and if you want to keep in the loop about this show, about future workshops, events, live shows, much maybe that we are coming up with I don't know, sign up for our mailing list. Go to multitude.productions and sign up for the email list at the very bottom of the page and you'll be the first to know about all new exciting things multitude.
Julia: Yes, absolutely do it. Amanda's emails are fantastic.
Amanda: Thanks.
Julia: You'll actually be excited to see them in your inbox rather than being like, another old navy one?
Amanda: I promise never to include images of the things we talk about on today's episode of spirits podcast, episode 149, Haunted Dolls. [inaudible 00:04:36].
Julia: Amanda.
Amanda: Julia.
Julia: Haunted doll watch.
Amanda: It's a haunted doll episode, yay.
Julia: I've been wanting to do one of these for a very long time at this point and the fact that we're finally getting to it, the spookiest of all months, it has me delighted.
Amanda: What better way to really get into our October than with a haunted doll roundup.
Julia: Okay. Amanda, we're going to start off by me asking you to take a moment and tell me what you think of immediately when I say the word haunted dolls.
Amanda: Wide, ever seeing, never sleeping eyes like glass, maybe they move on their own when you think you're not looking. Probably a Victorian dress or some kind of antiquated looking dress, I don't think of Kit the American girl doll as necessarily being haunted.
Julia: Okay. Interesting.
Amanda: Yeah, just like limbs or heads moving when they should not be and turning to look at you.
Julia: Okay. All right. Interesting. So movement on its own is a big one, you're going Victorian style so the classic woman in white but in doll form.
Amanda: Yeah or pink. It can look like a traditional kids toy but something flowery, lacy, frippery in the clothing. I feel like levitation on their own too might be a haunted element.
Julia: Okay. Interesting. The cool thing is, haunted dolls, they're not just a recent revival by people trying to make money off eBay, which we'll talk about a little bit but they actually date back centuries. One of the first examples of 'haunted doll' can be traced back to the 20th century BCE but instead of a doll, they appeared as wax figures. In fact it was believed that Egyptian wax figures could be molded and malleable so therefore made them a powerful material in order to inflict change and harm onto creatures.
Amanda: Interesting.
Julia: There are stories of Nectanebo II who was said to be a great magician and who had a secret room in his palace full of wax figures that he would use to defeat armies of his enemies.
Amanda: Shit.
Julia: Then there was another example of the use of wax figures that's traced back to the judicial records of Ramesses III who had many of his enemies tried on the accusation that they were trying to use wax figures in order to weaken and potentially kill him.
Amanda: I mean, in a world where candlelight is your only light at nighttime, that is extremely witch trial to be like, there is wax in his home. He is trying to kill me.
Julia: He must, but it's oddly shaped like a human and it's-
Amanda: Like most candles.
Julia: And it's in the design of the pharaoh. Odd.
Amanda: Yeah. I guess there's no Pharaoh scented candles that are being sold when people visit the capital, huh?
Julia: No. I don't think so. I don't think that was a marketable thing back then.
Amanda: Or you could call it a pharaoh scented candle and it would be the smell of the pharaoh as he is killed. No.
Julia: No, don't like that.
Amanda: No good. No good.
Julia: No. Puppets are also another example of dolls with supernatural abilities. These date back to Greek and Roman times with examples being found all through the ancient Mediterranean. In terms of mythological ties, [heckaids 00:07:55], worshipers were said to use bronze and led puppets as a way of binding lovers, which is very cool. One such notable worshiper was Samatha who melted a wax figure of her lover Delphus. Here's the quote from the [oakrititis 00:08:09] work, 'the witches'. That's the English translation of it. It's a very cool name in Greek that I'm not going to try and pronounce. Here's the quote. 'Delphus has brought me pain and I burn this Bay leaf against Delphus. As it crackles in the flames with a sharp noise and flares leaving no trace of ash, so may Delphus' body melt in the flame.' Yes.
Amanda: I love an extra sensory haunting and that little crackling noise really drives it home.
Julia: I love the dried Bay leaf crack.
Amanda: I also just yesterday made butternut squash soup with several dried Bay leaves. Ooh haunted.
Julia: Did you burn them in the hopes that they would destroy your lovers?
Amanda: No.
Julia: Okay.
Amanda: [inaudible 00:08:51], do that.
Julia: Puppets and the way that they are used is known as sympathetic magic. It's the same thing as the Egyptian wax figures where the doll is meant to represent a being and then bring desire changes to their behavior. They're typically seen now as a method that some modern day pagan practitioners use in sympathetic magic.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: One of the things that really comes to mind for a lot of people when we start discussing stuff like puppets and effigies is the voodoo doll. But in fact, traditional Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo do not really hold that kind of sympathetic figural magic in high importance.
Amanda: You're telling me Julia, that the film Scooby-Doo on zombie Island portrays the use of voodoo dolls as in fact wrong?
Julia: Now that I'm looking into this, and we talked about Scooby-Doo on Zombie Island before I did the research on this episode but it's probably more likely that they were using puppets and wax figures and the Scooby gang just assumed that they were voodoo dolls-
Amanda: That makes sense.
Julia: ... But in fact it might be historically accurate that these white people would be using the dolls and not people of color.
Amanda: Well, tell me what you have learned about voodoo dolls.
Julia: What we think of as the voodoo doll is historically derived from Europe rather than the African diaspora. Cunning folk in Britain, I don't know if you know what they are but they're basically folk magic practitioners who would use folk magic as a way of warding off actual witch evil magic so they were accepted practitioners of magic.
Amanda: Interesting.
Julia: Yes. They would create rag dolls against witches that would then be pierced by pins or nails in order to inflict physical harm against the witches and then break the curses that they placed on local villagers.
Amanda: Fascinating. I never knew that there was a sort of like using magic against magic users phenomenon but that makes complete sense.
Julia: Yeah and it's like a in D and D when you have a concentration spell and then you're damaged and then the spell ends, that's basically the same thing. Yeah, white people use what we would call 'voodoo dolls' but not really people of color.
Amanda: Yeah, that sounds like the project of systemic racism to put something on a group of people who you want to be seen as other that has almost nothing to do with their actual lived experience so, yeah.
Julia: With a little bit of that background, I want to take a moment to figure out why we think that dolls, whether they're haunted or being used to influence others or not, why are dolls so darn creepy.
Amanda: What do you think?
Julia: Well, I found a study that tells me what to think.
Amanda: Good.
Julia: According to a 2013 study done by psychologist Frank Andrew, creepiness comes down to the fact that dolls evoke an uncertain amount of danger. Here's the quote from Dr Andrew. He said, you're getting mixed messages. If something is clearly frightening, you scream, you run away. If something is disgusting, you know how to act but if something is creepy, it might be dangerous but you're not sure it is. There's an ambivalence. Basically he surveyed more than 1300 people about what creeped them out the most and actually collecting dolls was named one of the creepiest hobbies.
Amanda: No. I really think it's all the eyes.
Julia: What is more important is that being creeped out makes you hyper vigilant, which is why you feel on edge when something creeps you out. When it comes to dolls, it's because human beings look at faces for information. You look for intention, you look for emotion, you look for potential threat but since doll faces don't have any of that information for us to use, our brain is just not into that whatsoever.
Amanda: And you can just project anything that you are worrying about onto the unchanging face.
Julia: Absolutely. Really interestingly, the article talks a bunch about the uncanny Valley, which we talk about in video games and all of that kind of stuff. The actual phrase originated from a Japanese roboticist named Masahiro Mori in a 1970 essay and the title of the essay was Bukiminotani which better translates to Valley of eeriness, which I think is so much better.
Amanda: That is extremely good.
Julia: It's such quality stuff. I love it so, so much. That is why we think dolls are creepy. We just can't get a read on them and we're just like, this looks like human baby but it's not showing emotions of human baby. What is wrong with it.
Amanda: Yeah. That also reminds me of some of our previous discussions of changelings and depending on whether a person's exhibiting behavior or a baby is doing what we think of as 'normal behavior', our brains pick out differences from pattern and see it as a potential threat like you said so that's just, things come back around.
Julia: We still didn't really talked about this too when I talked about the creepy clown episode which I don't really want to relive but here we go. But again, it's the idea of the weird painted clown face is terrifying to us because it's a depiction that we can't see past. It's like wearing a mask and so that makes it creepier because we can't gauge the emotional connection that we would have with a 'normal person'.
Amanda: Very true.
Julia: And then Amanda, of course, there's the haunted doll market. If you got the joke at the beginning of the episode, I don't need to explain it but if you didn't, anyone who has listened to the excellent podcast, My Brother, My Brother and Me is probably familiar with the haunted doll watch. It is a segment on the show where the oldest brother Justin reads these book wild listings for haunted dolls on websites like eBay and Etsy. Etsy has a haunted doll section, remember?
Amanda: Oh no, they've infiltrated Julia.
Julia: Well, it's because, and I'll talk about this a little later, it's because eBay is trying to kick all the haunted doll people off.
Amanda: Yeah. These are folks who are selling dolls who they claim have a spiritual passengers and talking all about what kinds of hauntings they can expect, what kind of spirit it is and promising, some wild claims.
Julia: Don't worry, I'll break it down. Most of these haunted dolls average around $50 which does not include shipping by the way.
Amanda: Oh no. Or tax.
Julia: And tax, no.
Amanda: Tax spooky.
Julia: The haunted doll. You must pay taxes on it. The listings tend to have a pretty standard formula so they will tell you about the spirits life story, they will tell you how the spirit died and came to occupy the doll and then they will describe the doll's personality. The dolls are typically described as being active or highly active because why buy a haunted doll if it's not going to do anything? Right.
Amanda: Very true.
Julia: These active dolls tend to be advertised as moving on their own accord, making noises or communicating via Ouija boards and even telepathy sometimes.
Amanda: Wow. What a swing.
Julia: The variety of types of spirits is also a feature in the haunted doll business so if you're in the market for a malevolent doll, like the ones we're going to talk about after the break, you are in luck. Don't worry. You can get that demon that's in a small doll but if you're in the market for a doll that can be an artistic muse or might attract love life into your life then there are listings for you as well. It's also super important to know as we were pointing out before that eBay policy strictly prohibits the selling of human souls and metaphysical items which they had to add in 2013.
Amanda: I want to see that email chain. I want to see the email chain where somebody is like, hey Michael, I'm really sorry to bother you but we're going to have to review our policy here.
Julia: Sellers tend to get around these restrictions by claiming that they are "for entertainment purposes only" or that they are selling the doll as is, which is excellent.
Amanda: That's so funny. That's so much like on life journal after the Warner brothers sent a take down notice to a fanfic author where people just started putting copyright, not intended in the like description of their fanfic, which doesn't [crosstalk 00:16:38], doesn't mean anything and B saying, I don't try to take your intellectual property doesn't mean that it's not or that someone will argue it's not copyright fraud. It's not copyright fraud, it's fan fiction but okay, all right.
Julia: Fan fiction. So interesting in so many different ways.
Amanda: I love it so much.
Julia: To avoid the eBay thing, a lot of doll listings are moving to Etsy now, which is not as strict in there, can't sell human souls. [inaudible 00:17:04].
Amanda: All I know is that I have fallen down the plant Etsy rabbit hole and I've not made any purchases yet because if I do it will never stop.
Julia: Yeah, no, I'm worried about your wallet in case you start to make more purchases. I also worry about the shipping of plants. I feel like getting your local plant more important.
Amanda: I know, me too. It'd be more like plant supplies, different soil mixes or pots or something but I'm just, I'm not opening that door Julia because I don't know what looks behind it.
Julia: I feel like there's enough local places for you to-
Amanda: Yeah. 100%
Julia: Instead of going to Etsy and having them shipped from however far away.
Amanda: Yeah. Got to be aware of our carbon emissions here because climate change is the true spector.
Julia: Yes. That is true. Now that we've got a little context on haunted dolls, I say we should go grab a refill and then I can tell you about some of my favorite haunted dolls.
Amanda: Let's do it. Julia we are sponsored this week by calm and as you know, not the most wonderful friend of mine sleep. It can be very challenging, especially when you're on the road and in a new environment. I really enjoy that no matter how my evening is going, if I end up needing something to listen to you when I'm up at night, that isn't a podcast because then I'll start getting into it and then get more awake and it just doesn't work for me to go back to sleep, I know that I can listen to Calm. They have wonderful soundscapes, they have guided meditations, they have sleep stories, which are bedtime stories for adults that are extremely well produced so the volume never gets too loud. It can actually get softer over the course of the story-
Julia: As you fall asleep.
Amanda: ... It's amazing and they're just like, there's wonderful images for you to focus your mind on. It's calming, it's soothing. There are lots of trains. I love it so, so much. Spirits listeners today you can get 25% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com/spirits.
Julia: Yep. That is calm.com/spirits for 25% off a premium subscription.
Amanda: C-a-l-m.c-o-m/spirits.
Julia: Amanda, it's fall now.
Amanda: Sure is.
Julia: And as the copy is for this next product says, it's time to fall back into a healthy routine. Care/of is a wellness brand that makes it easy to get the right vitamins, supplements and protein powders for your specific needs. I think especially for me as we go into fall and a new season, I tend to... I have the seasonal effective disorder. It makes it a little hard for me to transition into those darker evenings and shorter days. I was really excited for Care/of to sponsor us for the fall. Care/of is really, really easy to do. All you have to do is take their online quiz. It's short, it's fun, it takes five minutes and you answer easy questions about your diet, your lifestyle and your health needs and then it's super, super easy and convenient. Your order gets shipped right to your door in these convenient daily little packs that are also biodegradable which is the best part.
Amanda: They are compostable. So good.
Julia: And Care/of really cares about the difference that they're making. Like we said, they have that new compostable packs for all of their vitamins but they also have vegan and vegetarian supplement options which I think is really important and really cool that they provide those.
Amanda: Absolutely. And listeners, you can get 25% off your first Care/of order at takecareof.com when you enter the code spirits.
Julia: Yup. Again, that is 25% off your first care of order by going to careof.com and entering the promo code spirits.
Amanda: Finally Julia, this episode is brought to you by HelloFresh which has given me my favorite go to fall meal. I'm not even lying here you all. It is the pork tenderloin with potatoes and green beans but the best part is this fig jam balsamic sauce. It is so good and I immediately, the next time I went to the grocery store, bought the ingredients to keep that in my pantry because I want on everything. On chicken, on potatoes, on vegetables, on pork.
Julia: Love it. I didn't get that one but I did get the pork tacos that had this [chap hotly 00:20:52], creamer on top and Jake is very picky about the kind of tacos that he eats and oh my God, I'm saving the recipe so we can make it again. It was so freaking good.
Amanda: I love that. These meals are always easy to make. They're really simple so whether you are a beginner cook or somebody who wants to go in there and in just like half an hour, get your dinner to the table, it is really easy to do. They're delicious, we promise. They're extremely good and they're also really flexible. You can add extra meals to your weekly order if you have guests for example or you want a meal prep for your lunch and then you can also add on sides like garlic bread or cookie dough, different things for you to add onto your meal which I think is awesome.
Julia: Yeah and the really nice thing too is you can change when your delivery comes so you don't have to have it every week or whatever. We tend to be traveling a lot so I don't always get my HelloFresh order delivered because I'm in Portland or Seattle or something and they're really flexible about that too.
Amanda: They take food preferences into account so I was like, yo, I can't have onion or garlic and that's a bummer but please don't give me things that depend on that and that's why I didn't get the tacos because you had to get that onion.
Julia: Perfect. There was onion in there.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: It was good. It was quick pickle onion. It was very delicious.
Amanda: Quick pickle. Love it so much. Well, you today can get $80 off your first month of HelloFresh at hellofresh.com/spirits80 and enter the code spirits 80.
Julia: Yup. Again, that is $80 off your first month of HelloFresh by going to hellofresh.com/spirits 80 and then entering the promo code spirits80 at checkout.
Amanda: With that, let's get back to the show.
Julia: I've actually made us some, I hate the name of this but some Dirty Shirley's, which is like an adult Shirley Temple but the important part in making an adult Shirley temple is not the booze that you pick but rather the quality of the grenadine that you pick.
Amanda: Yes. At my house warming party, friend of the show, Andrea from our gender fuck the gods episode and cross-dressing episode brought me fancy ass grenadine and I can never go back.
Julia: Yes. I am a big fan of BG Reynold's hibiscus grenadine so that's what I made this with.
Amanda: That's the note. I wasn't able to place it. So tasty.
Julia: That little floral hop. I love it so much.
Amanda: It does remind me though, the name, as regrettable as it may be, about the fact that some of these haunted doll listings do talk about ironic nature to the doll which is something.
Julia: The ones that I'm going to be telling you about, I did not pick any erotic content doll stories. I'm sorry to disappoint.
Amanda: I just want to say that's a thing that exists in the world and we'll just move on past it.
Julia: That is. Basically Dirty Shirley, high quality vodka. I usually go Tito's, a really good grenadine like I said, the hibiscus grenadine, extremely good. A little bit of lime, a little bit of simple syrup and then ginger beer to top it off. Very important.
Amanda: Delish.
Julia: Yeah. Okay. That's our drink for the day. Reminded me of childhood but corrupted so on to dolls.
Amanda: Amen. Amen.
Julia: The first doll that I want to talk about is probably one of the most well known since she is a pivotal part of the conjuring film series and that is Annabelle. I don't think you've seen any of these movies Amanda. Am I right?
Amanda: No.
Julia: Okay. If you have seen the films, Annabelle is a much creepier version of what she looks like in real life. In real life she is just a Raggedy Ann doll. You know what a Raggedy Ann doll looks like, right?
Amanda: I do. I do.
Julia: Yeah. So just patchworky looking. It looks like a child's toy. It's not remotely as creepy as most haunted dolls are and in the film she is like this cracked, worn out porcelain doll style of creepy, which is the one that you alluded to at the beginning of the episode but now this, it's just a Raggedy Ann.
Amanda: I think the more realistic looking the face, like you were saying earlier, the higher the creep factor so Raggedy Ann doll seems like a kid's toy and not like a simulacrum of a person.
Julia: Right and I think it's interesting too, because the Raggedy Ann doll is like one of those dolls that all of the kids during that time had one of those. It's like having a Furby. It was in every home.
Amanda: Yeah. Or cabbage patch kid.
Julia: Cabbage patch.
Amanda: Which I never wanted because that seemed creepy to me too.
Julia: Yes, no.
Amanda: Baby face.
Julia: So creepy. Annabelle came into the public eye because she was a part of the occult museum that was owned by famous paranormal investigators, Ed and Lorraine Warren. Amanda, if that name sounds familiar, it's because we talked about them in our long Island urban legends episode because they were the paranormal investigators who were called upon to look into the Amityville horror haunting.
Amanda: I sure do remember.
Julia: I'm proud of you. So proud. The Warrens claimed that they were given the doll by a nursing student in either 1968 or 1970, sources vary, who had in term been given the doll as a birthday present from her mother. She had consulted a medium after the doll began to 'act strangely'.
Amanda: No. I mean the doll acting at all frankly is strange.
Julia: Yeah. This included mysteriously changing position or even appearing in different rooms from where she had been left.
Amanda: Yikes.
Julia: According to the medium, the doll was possessed by a girl named Annabelle Higgins, who had lived in the home that had been torn down to make the apartment building that the girls now lived in.
Amanda: Development is the true specter.
Julia: It is. Annabelle is supposedly died at seven years old so knowing this, the nursing student and her roommate attempted to care for the doll as if she was a little girl and tried to coexist with it.
Amanda: No.
Julia: However, the paranormal events began to escalate so the students would find paper with the words help me written in crayon in strange places. It culminated in an event where the doll levitated on its own and then also the fiancé of one of the students had a dream where the Annabelle doll attempted to strangle him and when he awoke and found it on the couch with him, he tossed it across the room and then the girls claimed that several wounds appeared without cause on his body looking like claw marks.
Amanda: Extremely bad. Every detail of that was extremely bad.
Julia: Yeah, no, it's just awful. I feel like at that point you just got to get rid of the doll. You can't keep it there.
Amanda: Get rid of the doll and also move.
Julia: Yeah, just forever. Just got to get out of there. This was of course the final straw for the girls. It probably shouldn't have been, should've been much earlier, who then reached out to the local church for help. The priest there recommended that they contact the Warrens who then accepted the doll for safekeeping. She still currently resides in The Warren's Occult Museum and is kept in a wooden case with a glass front door. It's got a sign that says, "Warning, positively do not open," on it.
Amanda: Good.
Julia: ... And has, for whatever reason, a devil tarot card stuck to its door. Not sure why. Couldn't find a reasoning behind that just was there. The museum regularly invites a priest to bless the room that Annabelle is kept in. In the past, the Warrens have claimed that people who have interacted with the doll in the museum have been met with horrifying fates.
Amanda: Why is is still in the museum then?
Julia: The sign is there for a reason. Okay so, for example, a priest visiting the Warren's home before the museum was created threw the doll across the room with the proclamation that God is more powerful than the devil.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: After this event, on his way back to the church, he was in a car accident with a tractor trailer. Though he managed to survive the incident. He did claim that he saw an image of the doll in his rear view window before the accident occurred.
Amanda: No.
Julia: Another man, a visitor to the museum ignored the signs on the case and banged on the door of the doll's case, a few days later he reportedly died in a motorcycle accident. I will also point out that there is just little to no proof if any of this information other than the Warren's words on the topic.
Amanda: And one of the most common ways to die is in a motor vehicle accident.
Julia: Yeah, exactly. But I do love the lore behind it. The Warren's are problematic as people and investigators and they've taken advantage of a lot of shitty situations depending on who you ask so I just think it's a really interesting story regardless of whether or not it is true.
Amanda: It really hits on very many of our horror movie troops here. Each of the scenes you described is so cinematic and is that because those are the stories that we think are believable because we've been trained by horror movies who expect stuff like that or I don't know, is there something about the, I'm sure you're going to touch on it but the Chucky doll style haunting of a child's play thing coming at you and exacting revenge upon adults, that's inherently transgressive and creepy.
Julia: Amanda, I know that both of us love a good Japanese urban legend.
Amanda: Hell yeah.
Julia: I'm going to tell you about one of my favorite Japanese haunted dolls, Okiku.
Amanda: I'm ready for it.
Julia: In 1918, a boy named Keiichi Suzuki bought a doll for his then two year old sister, Okiku, while on a trip to Hokkaido, okay? It was a porcelain doll. It was dressed in traditional garb. It had a traditional style haircut so like bangs, long black hair, et cetera. Very well kept and neat. His younger sister Okiku was absolutely delighted by the gift. Loved it. Like best gift ever. She would take the doll with her everywhere. She insisted that it would never leave her side. Adorable, really cute. However, the girl died about a year later after being struck with influenza so as a way of honoring her, they took the doll and placed it on their family altar. The place of prominence for the doll would lead to a shocking discovery, however.
Amanda: No.
Julia: After a short amount of time, the well kept hair of the doll started to grow longer and longer, growing at odd angles and lengths. This continued until the hair grew all the way down past the doll's knees and despite the fact that the family would trim the hair of the doll, it would continue to grow.
Amanda: Wow. That's such an interesting play on the untended urban legend that nails and hair grow after death.
Julia: Yes. The family came to the conclusion that their daughter's spirit must now occupy the doll. The family is faced with a dilemma 20 years later, now in 1938 when the Suzuki family planned to move. They were extremely reluctant to bring the doll with them to their new home because it's a doll that's hair keeps growing but also they couldn't conceive of getting rid of it because they were still convinced that it held the spirit of their daughter.
Amanda: What a thing to have to deal with. I can't imagine the grief.
Julia: Yeah. As a compromise, the family brought it to a temple in Hokkaido, which is the area that the doll was originally purchased. The temple accepted the doll despite the family being pretty upfront about its strange qualities and the hair continued to grow while in the temples care. The doll still remains at the temple in Hokkaido to this day and there are many, many stories about the doll supposedly making noises like a small child or even getting up and walking around the temple. In recent years, people have attempted to come up with a scientific reason as to why the hair might grow. Samples of the dolls hair have been taken and it's been proven that the hair from the doll is human hair. Yeah. You can go and see the doll if you go to Hokkaido, Japan.
Amanda: I'd love to go to Japan but I don't know if that's going to make my itinerary.
Julia: Come on. It's fun. They have a bunch of pictures of the doll throughout the years with the hair being different lengths and everything. It's very cool.
Amanda: No. I really don't. I'd really rather not.
Julia: Okay. That's fair. That's fair. I get it. I get it. Okay. And of course, Amanda, I feel like we would be remiss if we didn't close this roundup out with one of the creepiest haunted dolls there just is out there and that is Robert the doll.
Amanda: What's Robert the doll?
Julia: Robert the doll. This is a doll that has supposedly caused job loss, divorce, broken bones and car accidents.
Amanda: No.
Julia: He was a doll that was originally owned by an artist from a rich family in Key West. The man's name was Robert Eugene Auto but he was better known to his family as Gene. Robert the doll was originally given to Gene as a birthday gift by his grandfather who had brought the doll back to the States from a trip to Germany. After digging into some points, I determined that Robert was probably not intended to be a child's toy but rather he was probably used as a window display by the Steiff company. You might know the Steiff company for one of their other famous inventions, the classic Teddy bear.
Amanda: Okay so these folks know what they're doing in the kid's toy department.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. Despite being a childhood gift, Gene kept the doll with him well into adulthood. Gene's relationship with the doll was seen as, to some of his family members, strange and unhealthy. They would recount stories about how he would bring it with him everywhere, how he would talk to the doll as if it was a person rather than a doll. Like most children, Gene would blame the doll for accidents but adults in Gene's life would tell stories about how the doll would seemingly move on his own, even when he wasn't in the presence of Gene.
Amanda: I feel like the fact that the doll is male is also creepy because we have so many examples of, like I was describing earlier, the wife in the attic, like Victorian woman doll and something about a male doll seems really sinister.
Julia: Yeah. Interestingly, Robert is traditionally shown wearing a little sailors outfit which people have speculated that that was one of Gene's childhood outfits that he then dressed the doll in after he grew out of the clothes, because Robert the doll is a pretty big doll. He's like toddler sized.
Amanda: No, that's very scary.
Julia: It's very bad.
Amanda: Also I don't know, I hope this doesn't... Obviously it's going to end poorly because we're talking about it on Spirits but people have comfort objects and that's not out of this world.
Julia: There's nothing wrong with that. Listen, people have comfort objects. It's totally fine if that's the thing that brings you comfort and helps you out in situations where you might be going through something rough. More power to you. When they start being haunted though that's when it gets a little creepy.
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Haunting no good.
Julia: Robert stayed with Gene for the rest of his days and when he died in 1974, his house was bought by Myrtle Ruder who took custody of the home as well as its occupant, Robert the doll.
Amanda: No. See, you don't buy a house with a Robert the doll in it.
Julia: You do apparently. Especially when it's good real estate in Key West.
Amanda: Julia no beach is worth that.
Julia: I don't know. I don't know about that. It seems that Robert got a little bit more active after his owner died. Just a little.
Amanda: Or is it that the owner joined Robert in that spirit in the doll and now there's two... There's double the energy.
Julia: You got a good point there. Okay. Myrtle and guests would often hear footsteps in the attic where Robert was kept and of course childlike giggling.
Amanda: No. No.
Julia: Probably shouldn't keep him in the attic. I feel like you should give him a prominent display.
Amanda: Yes. Yes. You have to keep it satisfied but also within sight at all times.
Julia: Yes. Okay, good. Some people would sometimes either insult Robert the doll or Gene in front of the doll and they would claim that the dolls expression would change. Which goes back to the creepy level of dolls in itself is that like, doll, their expression never changes. It's always creepy. It's always the same one flat note. The fact that the dolls expression changes somehow so much worse.
Amanda: It really is and expecting that to happen and not having a unchanging thing that your brain is constantly trying to scry for information is really just asking you to imagine facial expressions changing.
Julia: Yeah, no, don't like that. This went on for about 20 years and-
Amanda: Much too long.
Julia: ... until Myrtle decided that it was time to donate the doll to the Fort East Martello Museum. Suddenly Robert became a very popular attraction at this museum. Interestingly, Robert the doll gets a lot of mail.
Amanda: No.
Julia: One to three letters a day according to the museum.
Amanda: Was this a very popular story?
Julia: Yeah. Do you want to guess what the letters are about? These one to three letters a day?
Amanda: Are they marriage proposals?
Julia: They're not. Interesting, okay. Most of them are apologies.
Amanda: To their own Roberts the doll.
Julia: No to Robert the doll.
Amanda: No but is it from people who got rid of their dolls and want to beg for forgiveness?
Julia: It is from people who visited Robert at the museum and then disrespected Robert the doll.
Amanda: No.
Julia: People who disrespect Robert the doll report having misfortunes fall upon them after visiting the museum. This is when I said Robert the doll causes broken marriages, broken bones, car accidents, all that kind of stuff.
Amanda: I mean, listen, misfortune befalls you all the time. It's not necessarily correlated to the doll you saw.
Julia: Maybe don't insult random objects that may or may not be haunted.
Amanda: Also good. Also be nice to AI. Don't just demand things from-
Julia: It's absolutely true.
Amanda: ... Your women coded AI.
Julia: Good point Amanda. In order to appease Robert, many visitors bring him candy, money and again, this is according to the museum, the occasional joint.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: Thanks Florida.
Amanda: Okay. See Florida fucks.
Julia: Obviously there are a bunch of other haunted dolls both in pop culture and as real life examples but I thought these really highlighted the global interest in these bad boys.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: There's this really interesting one in Singapore that I want to talk about but I didn't have enough information on it. But basically it's a Barbie doll that is displayed in a Memorial temple that is said to have supernatural powers. I don't have a lot of information about it but if one of our listeners does, I would love to hear more about this because it fascinates me in a way that I can't quite express in a... Yeah. It's really interesting to me.
Amanda: Yeah. That juxtaposition between a doll for fun and a place of remembrance and mourning is inherently just... It's asking for drama.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. If you have information about that Singaporean Barbie doll that is worshiped and has supernatural powers, I want to hear all about it please. But Amanda, what are your feelings on haunted dolls after this new information? Some historical background, some great examples, not just to eBay listings.
Amanda: It sounds like Victorian dolls did not offend.
Julia: Yeah, no, not really.
Amanda: It sounds like we have very many examples in ancient history. We have some contemporary examples and some from the early 20th century but I think the [Dona Malong 00:40:22], sweeping dress is probably going to be pretty okay.
Julia: Yeah. No, for the most part I think we've just inherently learned like, yes, old things are creepy and we're at the period of time where Victorian style is 'old to us' so I imagine that that's why it's fundamentally creepier but not as many examples in real life of those haunted dolls that I've seen.
Amanda: Yeah. I'm also just thinking back to how much I did and still do think that objects have feelings. As a kid, the movie, The Brave Little Toaster really fucked me up and I threw a tantrum, sobbing and crying when my parents renovated our house and replaced our old kitchen sink with a new one and I was just so attached to it and didn't want it to go anywhere and I was mourning the sink and had to go to the dump to say goodbye to it.
Julia: That's adorable.
Amanda: And that's pretty much how I still am. I love my robot son cleaning vacuum and I love my plants and I want them to be well and I feel bad if I drop a pen like no and so it sounds really silly but part of me definitely believes that objects, deserve respect in the way that people do and I think one extreme of that is, well if you wrong them then they will make their own revenge and that definitely fits into the stuff we've been talking about today.
Julia: Absolutely. I just sent you a picture of Robert the doll by the way.
Amanda: I am not going to look at it. I'm sorry.
Julia: Do it. Do it.
Amanda: No. I don't. Okay.
Julia: And you can see he's surrounded by all of his letters that people sent being like, hey, sorry about that. My wife and I got divorced.
Amanda: I think what's creepier than Robert is the dog that Robert is holding.
Julia: It is also very creepy. I will give you that.
Amanda: Yeah. I-
Julia: It is just like... It's a whole thing there. The eyes. The eyes are terrifying too. Also his little weird grinchy looking feet.
Amanda: The feet are very grinchy. That's very true. And you're right, the sailor outfit definitely looks like a real person's outfit.
Julia: Yeah, for sure.
Amanda: Boy.
Julia: Robert, we find you very attractive and please don't do anything to us.
Amanda: Robert, I respect your right to live your life. I just do not wish to intersect with it.
Julia: That is completely fair. We will never go see Robert the doll in person.
Amanda: Absolutely.
Julia: This is a promise I am making you Amanda, live on this podcast right now.
Amanda: Thank you. I truly appreciate it and I hope that Florida listeners do not tread there but in case you go near it or have to drive by or even think of it, just remember-
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.