Episode 357: Hamlet
/Alas, poor Hamlet! We haven’t talked about him yet, Horatio. We’re getting close to wrapping up our Supernatural Shakespeare series, but of course we have to talk about Horatio, ghosts, “madness”, and grief with Hamlet.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of death, suicide, murder, psychosis and ‘madness’, grief, and poisoning.
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: Today, Julia, we are a little more than keen, a little less than kind because we have Hamlet on the docket.
JULIA: We do, indeed. Now, Hamlet's an interesting one because I think, in many ways, it's not as supernatural as the other episodes that we've done so far in our supernatural Shakespeare series. And really, the only like supernatural element is the ghost of Hamlet's father. And because both the ghost and one of the most important themes of Hamlet is Hamlet's kind of obsession with death, it seems like it's going to be a really interesting topic for us to discuss. But first, Amanda, tell me about your experience with Hamlet.
AMANDA: Yes. This is one that I first encountered reading it in high school, like I think a lot of us in the US do. And because we were performing Shakespeare at the same time, Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, other shows, I felt like I was— kind of had to weigh in, in a way to appreciate reading it. That wasn't just like, "These words make no sense." Going to, you know, look at the SparkNotes and get on with my day.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And I, you know, I relate to Hamlet a lot. At the time, you know, I started seeing productions as soon as I could, I saw the Kenneth Branagh movie. I saw various versions, you know, in New York City as soon as I could— was old enough to, like, go and start seeing plays. I didn't have the vocabulary for it at the time, but all of the struggles that Hamlet has with mental health, depression, grief, suicidal ideation, all of that spoke to me before I realized why. And as an adult— I actually haven't revisited it or seen an adaptation in probably 5 or 6 years.
JULIA: Wow.
AMANDA: So I am really looking forward to diving back in with you. I have here the copy I had as a teen, and I can see my teenage highlights. And I'm excited to share with you the lines that spoke to me when I first read it at, you know, 13 or 14.
JULIA: Oh, I'm so excited, Amanda. That's amazing. I think the only production of Hamlet that I've seen live— like I've seen a couple of filmed versions, but the only one I've seen live was, I think back in like 2015 or '16. I might have seen this with you, I'm not entirely sure. But the Public Theater did a production with Oscar Isaac—
AMANDA: We saw that together, yup, yup.
JULIA: —playing Hamlet and Keegan-Michael Key was there, too. I was like—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "—Whoa, this is a great production." Oscar Isaac made some choices where a lot of times he was just onstage just in his underwear, and it was great for, I think, everyone involved.
AMANDA: That was, frankly, the reason probably some of us were in those seats, but it was also a really interesting production.
JULIA: It was, it was a great production. The Polonius had just, like, the most like Jewish Brooklyn accent I've ever seen a Shakespeare actor play.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And it was— it was wonderful. It was a really good time.
AMANDA: Yeah, I saw Tom Hiddleston's Hamlet, too. They— they love to cast—
JULIA: Woah.
AMANDA: —like a young British movie star, and it is really fascinating because it's almost like— I'm sure we'll get into this, but Hamlet is main character syndrome.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: You know, the whole play, it is his name, it is his story. Everything is, like, about Hamlet causing problems for himself that don't need to be there.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And failing to address properly, problems that are real and are there. And so I'm just— I'm so excited. Like, I read the list of characters in the play, which every play starts with, and it's— yeah, none of these people have any impact on what goes on in this play. It's simply Hamlet and the ghost.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. We'll— we'll get to that a little bit. But first things first, let's get some context and go through the plot.
AMANDA: Julia, can I actually suggest a sort of mode of engagement with this episode?
JULIA: Sure. Go for it.
AMANDA: I would love for everybody listening to pause the episode, go to your music app of choice or YouTube, and listen to Billy Joel's Angry Young Man. And then I want you to come back to this episode and proceed. Okay?
JULIA: Pause. Alright.
AMANDA: Okay, thank you so much.
JULIA: Alright.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: Oh, my gosh. Alright. So we open with quite literally a dark and stormy night outside Elsinore Castle, which is where the Royal Family of Denmark rules out of. We're introduced to two guards, Bernardo, who has arrived to relieve the other Francisco. These are all just the least Denmark names I've ever heard.
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: Shakespeare, what are you doing?
AMANDA: At least with the Italy ones, he like gestures at names ending in O, but it— it doesn't happen here.
JULIA: Yeah. Like, this— is this also taking place in Italy and you're just like, "I don't know, Bernardo, Francisco."?
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: "It doesn't matter." So Francisco is nervous and is grateful to be going home and go to bed. Bernardo takes over for him and is later joined by another guard, Marcellus, as well as a friend of the prince, Horatio.
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: Now, Horatio was asked to join the guards because they claim to have seen something shocking, which is a ghost that they've seen for the past two nights. And they hope that Horatio who is like a scholar, he goes to school, he's a smart dude, he might be able to help them understand what is going on.
AMANDA: Yeah. It really— it opens up on your bruvs at their shift at the blockbuster.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And they're like, "Oh, good, the manager is here because"— and then they all point and, like, a ghost bust through the backdoor, like that is the opening of this play.
JULIA: I thought that you were gonna say, "They all point," and there's like water coming out of the bathroom that no one wants to look at or something like that, but— yeah.
AMANDA: I mean—
JULIA: But also a ghost bust through. So they claim that this ghost is none other than Prince Hamlet's father, King Hamlet, annoying that they have the same name, but we'll get past it.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Who I think supposedly was said to have died by a snake bite. There's a little bit of like smoke and mirrors around how that potentially might have happened, but we'll get to it later. But the guards had seen him in the castle ramparts in the late hours of the night, two nights in a row. Now, Horatio is skeptical, at least until the ghost suddenly appears before disappearing just as quickly. But that is enough for Horatio to be convinced that not only is there a ghost, but the ghost resembles the dead king dressed in his military armor. And Horatio thinks that this is a sign that Denmark might soon be at war and mentions that the Prince of Norway, Fortinbras, who will become important later, has been a threat at their borders. Fortinbras, again, another sick name. It's up there with me for Donalbain and Fleance as we talked about Macbeth.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But like Fortinbras, it's a good name.
AMANDA: It's really good. These are some of my early favorite lines, Julia. Horatio says, "This bodes some strange eruption to our state." Right? Like seeing the king in his military garb is like, "Well, he must be preparing for something."
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And also an early theme of Hamlet is language, which is easy to say, right, if any like playwright because they love language, that's why they do this.
JULIA: Of course.
AMANDA: But when the ghost enters, they're all like, "Oh." Like chatter, chatter, like, "What's happening?" And then the two lads, Bernardo and Marcellus, are like, "Hey, Horatio, talk to it. It wants to be talked to. You do it, Horatio." Really, like, pushing your bravest friend to the front of the line to, like, talk to the adult. And the fact that the king doesn't speak back is haunting and we're gonna—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —think and talk a lot in this play about who gets to talk and what power language has similar to the Tempest, but this is very internal. And it's very much about, like, what that kind of power of articulation and vocalization means.
JULIA: Yes. And I remember from our production, Keegan-Michael Key played Horatio, which was extremely funny, and probably not how it is typically played. But this scene in particular, where they're seeing the ghost, there's a lot of physical comedy that happened in that.
AMANDA: It was like almost slapstick.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Yeah. And compared to Hamlet, who is sort of like a morose and talks a lot about what's in his mind, Horatio is, like, charismatic, talks to people, gets things done.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: And so it was really, really good casting. I also just want to say, Julia, that Horatio describes Fortinbras as "of unimproved mettle, hot and full," of just like—
JULIA: That's hot.
AMANDA: He just like, "He's got to forge inside him, man. Like it's not going anywhere yet, but like, it's in there."
JULIA: That's hot, honestly. I want to be described like that. So the ghost reappears, Horatio tries to talk to it as you mentioned, but the ghost does not respond to him before it disappears when dawn comes, the— you know, the— the crow cries—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —and the ghost disappears. So Horatio is like, "Well, we got to tell Prince Hamlet about this because if the ghost won't talk to me, maybe it'll talk to his son, assuming that this is the king."
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: So Hamlet having agreed to see what Horatio claims to have seen, joins him and the guards out where they had seen the ghost. And he's, you know, pissed that Claudius is spending the night partying when his brother has just died, even though supposedly that's supposed to be the tradition, and he's just mad about it. And he's mad about a lot of things, I feel like.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: So when the ghost appears again, Hamlet calls out to it, but it doesn't respond other than beckoning Hamlet to follow him. And the others are like, "Uh, you're gonna go follow a ghost into the dark night? That seems like a bad idea, my guy." But Hamlet does not heed any of their warnings, he follows it into the darkness. And to himself, he kind of wonders if this is actually the ghost of his father or if it's some sort of like a demon that's trying to manipulate him. And I will say, the play never really answers that as a like, a question that Hamlet raises. It's like, is this actually the ghost of his father? Is it something that much like the witches tried to do in Macbeth, is trying to manipulate discord among the kingdom? Like, we don't know for certain it's not an answer that Shakespeare ever provide for us, but it doesn't cite a lot of the rest of the play.
AMANDA: Yeah. And we also have introduced this kind of other dimension, which different adaptations have played with. Like, Julia, there are adaptations of Hamlet that take place on Hamlet's mind.
JULIA: Whoa.
AMANDA: Yeah, that are really like introducing this frame narrative of like psychosis and quote-unquote, “madness.” And so, initially, when they're talking about the ghost, there's like a little bit of misunderstanding, and Hamlet is very witty. He has a lot of, like, sarcastic comebacks. But Horatio is like, "Whoa. Like, we saw this ghost." And Hamlet's like, "I've seen him before." And Horatio is like, "What?" And Hamlet goes, "In my mind's eye, Horatio."
JULIA: Damn.
AMANDA: And so we have also this dimension. Like, obviously, the ghost is seen by others, do we do know that textually, like the ghost is tangible and visible.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But I think it's really interesting to think about, you know, all the times that Hamlet is visited by instantiations of his dad who he really misses. And, you know, what kind of like psychosis, or imagining, or just, like, physical manifestations of grief can do to a person.
JULIA: Yeah. That's 100% true. And, you know, Hamlet is— I think he's like— as a character— and this is not like to demean the character at all, because he is like a very interesting character. But he's a little bit of a dramatic bitch. He's a little bit of an edgelord at times, you know? So I think that it's really interesting to kind of, like, see him dealing with all of this turmoil that he has. And it's very understandable, his father just died. His mother just remarried his uncle. He's suspicious that his uncle might have had something to do with it, which is confirmed by this ghost as we'll get to in a second.
AMANDA: Yeah, he sucks.
JULIA: Like it's just like— it makes sense that he is the way that he is especially as like— he— he's basically what amounts to, like, a 20-year-old college kid that just came back to his hometown because his dad passed away. Like, that's— that's where he is in life right now.
AMANDA: Yeah. And then there are these other themes, like one of the other things I highlighted is that Claudius, stepfather, says about Hamlet that he's exhibiting unmanly grief.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: And so there is a whole element too of masculinity and, like, what men should do, what men should look like, what grief should look like, how much is too much. And, you know, Claudius is highly invested in him and not really caring anymore. It's like, "I moved on, I'm married my sister-in-law who I always have been crushing on. Like, great." And what Hamlet should be doing and how he should look and perform is another thing to notice as we go through.
JULIA: Yes. So Hamlet is now following this ghost into the darkness. He has some qualms about this, but he tells the ghost that he doesn't care about his life. His soul is immortal. The ghost can't harm him if his soul is immortal, so he'll end up fine. So he follows it into the darkness, and then a moment later, Horatio and Marcellus, they were like, "Uh, we should probably follow him to make sure he doesn't die." So they do that.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But the ghost reveals to Hamlet in the darkness that he has been murdered, that while he was sleeping in his garden, Claudius, his own brother, poured poison into his ear, which is an interesting murder method, but no comment on Shakespeare.
AMANDA: Yeah, also words, poisoning, right? Like, it's all there.
JULIA: It is. So Hamlet is like, "Oh, shit. I knew there was something up with him, and this just confirms it." So the ghost tasks Hamlet with seeking revenge for him, but tells him not to act out against his mother, because she was corrupted. But, like, basically like heaven will judge her, not her son, like leave that to God and the angels, and whatnot. So after telling Hamlet all of this, the dawn breaks, the ghost disappears. And Hamlet, who has been moved by this image of his father and feeling vindicated in his suspicion of Claudius, promises to get the revenge that his father has asked for.
AMANDA: Exactly. And the ghost only speaks to Hamlet when they're alone. The scenes change from where kind of Hamlet, like you said, runs off stage and then, you know, later, we see him with the ghost together. So it is very clear that others can perceive the ghost or what they think to be the ghost, but he only talks to Hamlet.
JULIA: So this is where it gets interesting, Amanda, because Hamlet, as I mentioned before, a very dramatic dude by nature, very forlorn, very melancholy, very in his own thoughts, as we discussed. And like— like we discussed, it's also very fair to a certain extent. His dad just died, his mom married his uncle, but now, he knows or at least he's been told that his uncle was the one that killed his father. So Hamlet, knowing his reputation among the castle, decides to kind of take his reputation of being, like, really melancholy in his own thoughts, and take it another step further, and pretend to be mad.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So he starts acting super erratically, and it's making the King and Queen, Claudius and Gertrude, worry about him. They decide that they're going to determine what exactly is going on with him. So they call on Hamlet's two friends from school, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, who basically like they're tell them, "Hey, watch over him, figure out what's going on with him exactly. You're his friends. You should be concerned that he's acting like this." And they're like, "Okay." Because they— they barely have character traits at all.
AMANDA: I know.
JULIA: God bless their souls. I love Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, but they do absolutely nothing to this plot. Honestly, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are there only to get roasted by Hamlet, and I kind of love that for them.
AMANDA: Absolutely. And it makes all the sense in the world that like you and I know their names because largely in part of Tom Stoppard's like parody play, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead.
JULIA: Which is just what they're doing offstage the entire time that Hamlet is happening and it's great.
AMANDA: Exactly. It's an absurdist, existential tragic comedy and like that tells you all you have to know about these, like, literal like outlines of characters.
JULIA: So while Claudius and Gertrude kind of opine over what might be the cause to Hamlet's madness, Claudius' advisor, Polonius, suggests that the reason Hamlet might be acting so wild is because he is madly in love with Polonius' daughter, Ophelia.
AMANDA: Of course.
JULIA: Of course, naturally. Like that's just his whole vibe is like, "You know what's important? My children. They should be important to the King and Queen and Prince, and maybe they are, maybe they aren't. We don't know." So it is definitely implied that the two of them, Hamlet and Ophelia, have been, like, kind of into each other in the past. So Claudius is like, "Okay. Well, we'll spy on the two of them and see if he is actually in love with her and if this is the cause. Because if this is the cause, then great, like this is not a problem for me, Claudius, the guy who may or may not have murdered my brother."
AMANDA: Yeah. Certainly no one's gonna get accidentally stabbed while doing the spying. Certainly not.
JULIA: No. Spying definitely doesn't have consequences later on.
AMANDA: Uh-uh. Uh-uh.
JULIA: So while Claudius is spying on Hamlet and Ophelia talking, Hamlet seems, all things considered, to be acting particularly erratic and certainly is not acting like he's in love with Ophelia. This is where we get the kind of famous "get thee to a nunnery" scene for people who—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —are familiar with Hamlet. And also, in part Hamlet talks about how he wishes to put a ban on all marriages, which is fun, I guess. Sure.
AMANDA: Yeah. Again, understandable and very— of a child's tantrum where your parents don't do something or you can't share, and then you're like, "Okay, fine. No one gets it."
JULIA: Yes, but this definitely does not come across as someone who may or may not be lovesick. So they kind of eliminate that as the cause for his madness.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Meanwhile, Amanda, one of my favorite things that Shakespeare likes to do is put a play with on— within a play.
AMANDA: Always.
JULIA: So a traveling theater troupe arrives at the castle, and Hamlet is like brain blast, "I've got a great idea." So he decides he's going to test his uncle's guilt to see whether or not what the ghost told him is true. So he orders the actors to perform a scene that is, ooh, so similar to what the ghost told him happened to his father and his uncle, reflecting his uncle's murder. So Hamlet is convinced that while watching this, he'll be able to judge Claudius' reaction to see whether or not he's guilty. Amanda, this is a decide for you. Instead of reaction, I did write erection in my notes.
AMANDA: Nice. Nice. I mean, but not the most ill-conceived plan—
JULIA: No.
AMANDA: —that people have ever come up with in Shakespeare. It actually makes a lot of sense to be like, "Okay. If we, you know, watch something that resonates, like how does it affect you? Not that people— how they look outside, you know, totally tracks with how they feel inside, but—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —being like, "Oh, does he like get sweaty? Does he think it's funny? Does he look guilty?" It's a good plan.
JULIA: Yeah. No, this is a real Columbo— I've been watching a little bit of Columbo lately, but it's very like, "Huh, it's weird you didn't react this way that I assume people react when they're grieving or whatnot." And you're like, "That's why you're suspicious." And I'm like, "I mean, that's not"— in the court of law, you can't use that. It's like, "Oh, he checked his mail when he found out his friend had been murdered." I'm like, "That's— that doesn't work the way that you think it does. That doesn't work the way that you think it does."
AMANDA: Yeah, I think the best version of this is like a cause for suspicion, or a clue, or direction, to be like, "Hmm, let me look further into this." But Hamlet, a 100%, wants to treat this as like objective proof, because for him, he knows it from his father, but he can't say, "My daddy, the ghost told me."
JULIA: Yes. So the play is put on and when the scene happens that is reminiscent of the murder, Claudius jumps up and leaves the room very quickly. And Hamlet goes to Horatio and he's like, "I mean, that kind of proves it, right, my guy?" And Horatio is like— Horatio's a pragmatist, but he's like, "Yeah, I mean, that was a super weird reaction. That is kind of interesting that that's how he reacted." So Hamlet decides, "This is proof enough," as you just said, Amanda. So Hamlet goes to find Claudius and to kill him to get his father's revenge. But when he finds Claudius, it is while Claudius is praying. And this gives Hamlet pause, because he's feeling conflicted, because he wants to get his revenge, but he thinks that killing Claudius while he's praying will send Claudius' soul straight to heaven, and that won't be suitable revenge for his father. That's not what the ghost wanted, and it's certainly not what that Hamlet wants.
AMANDA: Yeah. Hamlet's not saying, "Oh, it's kind of morally wrong to kill a man while he's praying." Like Macbeth was kind of like, "I mean, I don't love that I'm killing the king while he's asleep. That seems kind of easy."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: No, no. Hamlet is like, "That will be too good for him."
JULIA: Yes. Now, he'll end up in heaven and he deserves to rot in hell, and that's fine. So Claudius, meanwhile, reveals that Hamlet's madness has him quite afraid. And he's worried that Hamlet might actually try to kill him, which is a little late, my guy. He's already considering it. And so he decides to send Hamlet back to England where he had been sent prior to do his education, right?
AMANDA: Yeah, let's send him away, he won't be our problem anymore.
JULIA: Exactly. So before he can be sent away, though, Hamlet goes to confront his mother, not knowing that she had been talking to Polonius earlier and who has hidden behind a tapestry.
AMANDA: Classic.
JULIA: Now, Hamlet is angry with his mother, despite the ghost having told him like, "Don't take your anger out on her." And while confronting her, he hears Polonius behind the tapestry, and Hamlet thinks that this is Claudius behind there, so he draws his sword, and he stabs through the tapestry, which kills Polonius.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: Also at this point, his father's ghost reappears to him in this moment. And while Hamlet can see him, Gertrude cannot, which further convinces her of her son's madness. Now, Polonius, Amanda, is the king's advisor, but Hamlet is also a prince, so he isn't like immediately put to death or anything, but he's rather exiled to England immediately with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern in tow. However, part of this is just for show, because Claudius has secretly given Rosencrantz and Guildenstern orders to give to the King of England to sentence Hamlet to death once he arrives on English shores.
AMANDA: Right. You can't do it as the sort of usurping king to the sort of rightful heir on your home soil, but—
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: —to kick them out of the country, you can do whatever you want.
JULIA: But, like, let the King of England do it, that's fine.
AMANDA: Uh-huh.
JULIA: We're okay with that.
AMANDA: That's politics, baby.
JULIA: So while all this is supposed to be happening, while Hamlet is supposedly being sent back to England and whatnot, Ophelia has been mourning the loss of her father, Polonius. And much like Hamlet was pretending to do or was acting, she actually goes mad with her own grief and ends up drowning in the river. And meanwhile, while all that is happening, Polonius' son, Laertes, who we met at the beginning of the play and who had been like sent off to France to kind of learn the ways of the world, returns back to Denmark furious in his grief over his father and his sister dying so soon after one another.
AMANDA: Exactly. And a— a line from Claudius here, "When sorrows come they come not single spies, but in battalions." Which is— you know, one of those things you're like, "Damn, the Bard, this is why you are who you are."
JULIA: That's like, "Oh, we get it now. We get why we're still reading your plays, we get it."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So as you— as you implied, Amanda, Claudius intercepts Laertes and manages to convince him that Hamlet is the cause for both Polonius and Ophelia's death, which is, like, not untrue, I guess. Like, Hamlet did kill Polonius, and Polonius's death is almost directly led to Ophelia's death, so—
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: —this ends up being even more of a problem though, because they find out via letters to both Horatio and to the king, that Hamlet's ship had been attacked by pirates, because why not? On the way to England, and now Hamlet was returning back to Denmark. But Claudius see this, Amanda, as a perfect opportunity. He gives Laertes the opportunity for his revenge, and he's going to make sure that Hamlet gets killed along the way. So he tells Laertes his plan that Laertes and Hamlet are gonna fence in, like, an innocent, little bout of competition, right? Except Claudius would poison Laertes' blade, so if he managed to draw blood on Hamlet, Hamlet would be poisoned and die. And because at this point, Claudius is very paranoid. He's like, "I got a backup plan in case that doesn't work, though. I got a poisoned goblet that I'm going to give to Hamlet as like a reward in case he manages to score one of the points at the beginning of the match."
AMANDA: Yup. And again, nothing could possibly go wrong in this entire concocted scenario.
JULIA: No, because anytime there's poison introduced in Shakespeare's play, everything goes right and nothing bad happens.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So with the plan set, Hamlet arrives back in Denmark. However, he does not go straight to the castle, but instead comes across a graveyard where we get the also classic "Alas Poor Yorick. I knew him, Horatio" monologue, which, if anyone knows anything about Hamlet, it's a guy dressed all in black with a turtleneck holding a skull. That's the Alas Poor Yorick monologue.
AMANDA: Yup. And again, one of my— my favorite lines, like after Hamlet is doing this monologue, which is actually interestingly, Julia, in blank verse. It's not in like a rhyme—
JULIA: Wow.
AMANDA: —structured, you know, iambic pentameter, which the "To be, or not to be" monologue is, which happens earlier in the play, I think, than a lot of us expect. I'm just like, "Oh, it's happening."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: This is Hamlet kind of like confronting, you know, mortality, realizing that he has grown older, et cetera, which is talked about in like, sort of lofty terms, but—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —actually, you know, being at a grave, holding the skull of a person you knew, that hits different. And the line I really enjoyed is— so at the end of this monologue, he goes, "Prithee, Horatio, tell me one thing." Horatio is like, "What's that, my lord?" Because Horatio is a great listener. And Hamlet goes, " Dost thou think Alexander looked in this fashion of the earth?" And he's like, "Hamlet, like, you are really comparing yourself to the great Alexander, but also trying to find a through line of like, you know, did— somebody who presided over a lot of death and was a leader, and maybe I see myself as being like, did he kind of find himself in this position?" And it's an interesting kind of self-reflective moment.
JULIA: Yeah. And it's also, like, kind of proving Hamlet's point of it's like, it doesn't matter if you're a king, or a fool, or Alexander the Great, like everyone dies and decays in the way that Yorick here— who I'm holding his skull, like everyone ends up like this.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And so does it really matter, like, once death takes you who you were in life? Like, I— I get it. I get it, man. I get it. So after opining over death and Yorick and Alexander the Great's fate, Hamlet then sees Ophelia's funeral is taking place and he lashes out when he sees Laertes. He's super angry, and he declares to everyone that he's always loved Ophelia. Everything he said before was a lie. It was a con to further his idea that like, "Oh, yes, I'm mad, and everyone should know that I'm mad." You know?
AMANDA: Yeah, he's trying to tell the truth.
JULIA: So they returned back to the castle and Hamlet takes Horatio aside, telling him that he thinks that basically, "You must always be prepared for death because death might come for you at any moment." And with that note, orders from Claudius come to arrange the fencing match between Hamlet and Laertes, and Hamlet agrees to the bout. And we will get to the conclusion of the play. But first, let's grab a quick refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
[theme]
AMANDA: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the refill where— I was gonna say this is a dagger I see before me. Nope. Where— where slings and arrows of outrageous fortune are conspiring to give us a nice, little break in the middle of this excellent episode. Now, first and foremost, I want to welcome our newest patrons to the party. Thank you, SweatyToothMadman, incredibly suitable that I'm reading your name here on the Hamlet episode, don't you think? Ida, Mari, and Alexandria, we are so grateful you're here and we hope you're enjoying the patron benefits that you now have access to. That includes episode extras for every episode, recipe cards, all kinds of bonus content, and newly a discount on our merch store, because you know it, you're gonna about to hear in a minute or so, but we have brand-new merch including bath bombs that I know you are going to love and that you can get 10% off on if you join the Patreon at a certain tier. But first, I want to thank our supporting produce-level patrons whose support sustains us, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Ginger Spurs Boi, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Nathan, Phil Fresh, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah and Scott. And those legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. My life really wouldn't be the same if I didn't get to say those mellifluous, beautiful voices on the regular. Now, if you want your name to be read, if you want to join these folks, and if you want a discount on the brand-new Spirits merch items, of a Weegee planchette, bright purple sparkly bath bomb. Yes, we did make the merch of our dreams, thank you for asking. And a color-changing mug that when you pour hot liquid into it, shows you a beautiful illustration by Zoe Polando Ryder, our merch Gremlin that is how they want to be identified by the way, I asked. And it's so beautiful, it's so gorgeous. Anyway, do all of that at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. It's worth it, y'all. We promise. And just in case, you know, you want to check out those items, you want to see what the mug looks like, what the bath bomb looks like, maybe pick up, I don't know, a t-shirt, or a poster, or, oh, a digital item where you can download our creepy cryptid compendium that Julia wrote with Eric Silver. You can do all of that at spiritspodcast.com/merch. And now, not just because we released a bath bomb recently, but not— not because of that, I want to recommend this week taking a bath. If you are not a bath person, then I want to encourage you next time you're at either like a friend or family's house that has a good bathtub or a hotel perhaps that has a bathtub, just try it out. And if you set up the bath, and you get in there, and after three minutes, you're like, "I don't get it, whatever." Then that's fine, get out. You didn't pay for that hot water. It's okay. Unless you're in a situation where you have to conserve water. You know what I mean. You guys are responsible. But baths are the absolute light of my life. In the summer, I'm too sweaty for them. But here as we're finally getting into chilly weather in the Northern Hemisphere, I am so excited to get back into my bath season. I love a bath bomb, I love a bath oil. I'll use like an essential oil, like even just cheap one from the grocery store or the drugstore, a couple drops in the bath, hmm, delicious. And the most important part of a bath that I think folks overlook is the lighting. It is not relaxing to be in a bath with harsh overhead bathroom lights. And so if you're able— what I do is I— I draw my shower curtain because I don't have that control as a renter over my bathroom lighting. And so when I, like, tuck my shower curtain between the vanity and the bathtub, it creates more of like a nice, little dappled glow as opposed to the overhead light. But there is so much to love, so much to explore, and I hope you enjoy a bath today, or next week, or next time you can. Alright, do it. And finally, a lot is going on over here a Multitude and we want to encourage you to check out Exolore, a fabulous podcast by Dr. Moiya McTier, friend of the show, our advice from folklore person, also an astrophysicist as she explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional world builders, and reviewing the merits of worlds have already been built. There are so many incredible episodes of Exolore coming up on 100 for you to enjoy. So go ahead, check it out, look up Exolore in your podcast app, or go to exolorepod.com. We are sponsored this week by Blueland. And I don't know about you, but I kind of start spiraling whenever I think about all of the disposable plastic that is being made in the world. And also separately, but related, I hate buying cleaning supplies at the grocery store. Like whenever I have to replace my two-gallon sort of jugs of white vinegar that I keep under the sink, that's my whole day, that's my whole errand. I can't just like add it to my grocery list, because then, you know, it's expensive, and it's heavy, and I have to lug it back up the two flights of stairs to my apartment. It's very frustrating. Which is why I'm so happy that Blueland gave me an excuse to never buy single-use plastic and heavy bulky stuff on my grocery run ever again. Because they are incredible. They offer endlessly refillable cleaning products, the beautiful design that looks great on your counter or under your sink, where all you have to do is fill the bottles they send you with water, drop in the tablets, and wait for them to dissolve. It is so much better for you, for the planet, for your mail carrier than ordering that stuff online in its liquid form. It just makes me so mad to see inefficiency and Blueland takes it away. They also smell really good, by the way. So Blueland has a special offer for listeners. Right now, you can get 15% off your first order by going to blueland.com/spirits. You won't want to miss this, blueland.com/spirits for 15% off. That's blueland.com/spirits to get 15% off. We are also sponsored this week by Ravensburger. The creators of also the highest-quality jigsaw puzzles in the game. I saw my grandma recently, my puzzle club fellow member, and we did some puzzle trading and I was very excited to see one of the Ravensburger Puzzles in her pile that she is passing along to me. And she was very specific and said, "Now, I want that one back, you know?" And I was like, "I— I know, gram. I— I know you do. I know you do." Because since 1883, Ravensburger has been making incredible puzzles that are part of families lives across generations. You can get a puzzle up to 40,000 pieces, by the way. I think ever since I started saying that, my algorithm has started serving me TikTok and reels of people completing very large jigsaw puzzles. So listen, I'm not complaining, this is a great development for me. I am not yet up to that challenge, but I am up to the challenge of a 500, a 1,000, a 2,000. And Ravensburger has so much to offer. Go ahead and check them out in your local craft or game store or on Amazon. Go ahead and check it out, Ravensburger Jigsaw Puzzles. Finally, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, I know for me that one of the ways I can kind of check in with myself and notice when I am doing maybe not so well is when I don't have the sort of enthusiasm, or energy, or drive to do the things that I know I love. And that might be something active like going to yoga, which I really like. It might be something more kind of traditional like "self-care" in quotation marks and relaxing, like taking a bath. But when I don't want to do things that I know are good for me, that I know I usually want to, that's a really good data point for me. And that's something that I can go ahead and investigate on my own with my journal, you know, in my thought process, and in my case, also in therapy. And that really helps me work with and not against myself. I can go into therapy and say, "Ugh. Like, I'm so frustrated about X, Y, and Z." And my therapist can help me go from like, "Yeah, that sucks and that's terrible, and how can we make it feel less bad to live in your body and life right now?" If you're thinking of starting therapy, BetterHelp is a really useful resource. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. So make your brain your friend with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/spirits today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, .com/spirits. And now, let's get back to the show.
[theme]
JULIA: Now, Amanda, there is a cocktail out there that is called the Hamlet, which is basically like a screwdriver with Campari, which sounds fine, I guess. However, I found another cocktail, which is inspired by the poison that Claudius killed King Hamlet with called The Serpent's Sting.
AMANDA: So good.
JULIA: Now, this is featuring my new favorite liquor to have in the household, because one of my new favorite bars in the area now does an absinthe service and I'm getting really into it. So this is a little bit of like an absinthe wash, which is basically when you put, like, a tablespoon of absinthe in the glass that you're going to use, swish it around, and then dump it back out. It also uses whiskey, they specifically suggest Irish whiskey, so shout out to that, I guess.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: And Benedictine, which we've talked about on the show before, which is like a French herbal liqueur, and then a couple of dashes of bitters. So it's like complex, herbaceous, and like just a hint of poisonous.
AMANDA: It's perfect.
JULIA: I know. I know. It's great. It's really going to take us through the rest of this episode. Normally, Amanda, I like to have a little game for us here, but I know we have a lot to talk about when it comes to Hamlet and its theme. So let's wrap up the plot so we can talk about themes.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
JULIA: So the fight between Laertes and Hamlet begins. It is taking place like in the throne room, typically. So like Claudius is there, Gertrude is there, most of the household is there, including Horatio as well.
AMANDA: And Julia, this is full pageantry, okay? Like, you know, we talked about how in Macbeth, like, they make this whole banquet to kind of, like, you know, make this confrontation. And this is like the most it's ever been. There is a table with a banquet there, with trumpets, drums, officers with cushions, the entire Royal Brigade, all of the state with foils, daggers, and like a bunch of wine. Like, people are sitting down for entertainment here.
JULIA: And, like, that's something that I feel like often does not get across in stage productions, because a lot of times, they're gonna, like, scale that down, because they're like, "We only really need to cast, like, 10 to 12 people to get this play on." So the idea of, like, having a whole brigade of royals on stage is likely not something you're going to see in the actual production that you might see staged, but what Shakespeare intended in writing it, so keep that in mind, I guess.
AMANDA: One of my— my little intro notes in the edition I have, the Signet Classics Edition, is about how, like, this is like pageantry, this is statecraft, right? Like this is— this is a duel in the most kind of formal sense.
JULIA: Yes. So that duel begins, Hamlet manages to score the first point, but turns down Claudius' offered gauntlet. Claudius is like, "Oh, good— good show, sir. Take a sip to refresh yourself." And he's like, "Nah, I'm good. I'm fine. Don't worry about it."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: So Gertrude, instead, takes a sip of the cup before anyone can stop her and is killed by that poison very quickly. And I had like— there's some productions that I've seen, where it's like Gertrude seems wise to the fact that Claudius has poisoned the cup and decides to drink it to, like, save Hamlet's life, basically.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And I really liked that read of it, because I think she knows that Claudius is fucking devious, and so, like, having to choose her son over her now spouse is a really interesting read on that.
AMANDA: Yeah. Gertrude is one of the— I don't wanna say overlooked, but maybe underdeveloped women of Shakespeare.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: We don't get a lot of her motivation.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: We don't understand her position of probably meeting a husband in order to keep the crown, and likely choosing somebody kind of close to the family. Like, marriage was not for love at this time, it— it was a political tool. And so I think there's a lot more to Gertrude and I know there have been tons of, like, explanations, and essays, and like deep readings about kind of her state of mind, but I— I really liked that read because she— she is savvy, she knows what's going on. The ghost of Hamlet's father was like, "Listen, this is not her fault. Don't hold it against her." So I think there's a lot more there.
JULIA: Yeah, I think so as well. So Gertrude poisoned, dies very quickly. While Hamlet is distracted by that, Laertes manages to wound Hamlet, which poisons him, but that poison does not take him out quickly. And Hamlet manages to get to the sword from Laertes and cuts him with that poisoned blade. And because Laertes knows that it's poison, basically rats Claudius out so quickly. He's like, "Claudius is responsible for your mother's death. He poisoned the cup. He also poisoned these swords." And then he dies.
AMANDA: Yup.
JULIA: Yup. Hamlet then, in his rage, kills Claudius by stabbing him with the poisoned sword and, you know, just to up the game a little bit, forces him to drink the rest of the poison from the goblet.
AMANDA: Yeah, just— just for the dramatics.
JULIA: Just for the dramatics. And with that, Hamlet dies in Horatio's arms, having finally achieved his revenge, and goes into the sweet embrace of death that he's been talking about this entire play.
AMANDA: Yup. Horatio says, "Goodnight, sweet prince." And the shippers rejoiced.
JULIA: Yes. And because Shakespeare loves to not end things just with, like, people dying, he has, at this moment, the Norwegian Prince Fortinbras, who I said was important earlier, arrived here in the hall. So he, along with some ambassadors from England, announces that also, "Hey, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead." And also was like, "What the fuck happened here?" Because basically, what he walked in on is the entire royal family literally dead on the floor, which is not an experience that he probably was anticipating when he walked into here.
AMANDA: No, no.
JULIA: And he asks Horatio, who is like really the only person still around, "What happened?"
AMANDA: My guy, huh?
JULIA: So Horatio tells the tragic tale and Fortinbras orders Hamlet to be buried an honorable soldier's death before he takes over Denmark.
AMANDA: Yeah, with the very, you know, again, poetic line of "Let four captains bear Hamlet, like a soldier to the stage." And here, he means like the stage to kind of, like, set him out and, like, give him a salute. But, you know, we're on the stage and performing on the stage.
JULIA: We're on a stage.
AMANDA: We love this.
JULIA: Yes, we do, indeed. And that is Hamlet. Amanda, let's talk about death and some ghosts, shall we?
AMANDA: My favorite topic, Julia.
JULIA: Alright. So throughout the entire play, Hamlet is all about death, ghosts, Hamlet's obsession with death. And it's— as I mentioned before, very understandable that he has such an interest/obsession with death. His father just died and he has to, throughout the play, kind of deal with the aftermath of death, both the, like, metaphysical ghost that is literally haunting the castle and putting him on this path of revenge, but also, like, physical reminders of death as we see in the cemetery with Yorick's skull. Which is part of the reason that like— that monologue is so well known, right? Like, not only the imagery and the artistry of the written word and how it is performed, but also just, like, the fact that it sums up so well how Hamlet is feeling about death before he really kind of goes into his own death. You know what I mean? Like it's a real— not bookend, but beginning of bookend for what is about to happen for Hamlet. And he seems so wrapped up in this idea that maybe in facing death or accepting death, that he'll finally, like, get to know the answers to these questions that so far have been unknowable to him. And I know that you have some— some strong opinions and strong feelings about Hamlet's thoughts on death and how it manifests as the ghost in this play. But tell me more, Amanda. Teach me your ways.
AMANDA: No, I— I think it matters here that Hamlet and Horatio are identified as students. And this means, you know, Hamlet is pretty young. This is not Macbeth who is married and, you know, has a— sort of military career already under his belt. This is also not Romeo and Juliet, where they— these are star-cross teens falling in love. Hamlet is really like an adolescent. He's at the end of his adolescence and, like happens, unfortunately, to a lot of people, I think he lost a real guiding light and has to deal with a real destabilizing event at a time where he is supposed to be just like thinking thoughts, and learning things, and preparing, you know, for his future career as king, but that—that destiny comes sooner than he wanted or expected. And so something that struck me as we were going through the play today, was just like you said, how much Hamlet is like a completionist and is— is not even curious but, like, needs to know what happens after you die. Needs to know the facts of his father's death.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: You know, needs to know Polonius' true intentions, and whether or not his mother had knowledge or something to do with it. He values knowing and maybe, like, the ego and the like domination, right? Like, knowing and learning something, I think it can be ego-driven. It can be like, "Well, I must know every single fact about this." Versus a curiosity of like, "Wow, the world is filled with wonder," which I think has to have some amount of accepting that we are never going to know it all and like some— something's going to be a mystery and a mystery is like a rich, fertile opportunity to uncover some understanding. Hamlet is like, "No. I will conquer death. Death is like an unconquered country, I'm going to conquer it." And so he gets what he wants in the end. Like many versions that I've seen have Hamlet dying smiling or satisfied. And again, depending on kind of your particular cosmology, we don't know what happens next. But—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —it is really fascinating that in the end, like he gets that state-crafted funeral. He goes from being like a— a disappointment of a son, and a man, and a crown prince to Fortinbras, someone totally outside the family, because the family is decimated, coming in and being like, "Well, you know, we'll give him the send-off that we can." And I just— again, like I— I so sympathize with this feeling of being like, "I cannot accept that some things I can't change." I cannot accept that some things I will never know. And it's really hard for me to know that, like, no matter how hard I try, or how much life I get to live, or how much I read or study that, like, there is some stuff that will always be, like, out of my reach.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And that is— that is like a, I don't know, a sort of vulnerability that I really relate to in Hamlet.
JULIA: I— I think that is really beautiful in a way, and I— I'm kind of stuck on something that you— you pointed out, where you're talking about, like, the two kinds of students, right? Where Hamlet is the person that needs to know. It's not just like a general curiosity about, like, wanting to know how the world works and, like, discovering the joy of that knowledge, but rather, it's about like, "I need to know, that is my driving force. If I don't know, then, like, what's the point of all of it?" And I think you could look at Horatio and Hamlet as two sides of the same coin, in that Horatio is also that student, and he is the one who is like, "Oh, well, you know, like, I'm very curious to see, like, how— how the world works, how these things happen. Like, I want to know as a scholar." But he doesn't have that drive, that, like, almost furious madness that drives Hamlet for more knowledge. I think that's a really interesting, like, way that you could play Horatio and Hamlet against each other in a production.
AMANDA: A 100%. And that's where I think the presence of the ghost is so interesting as well because we talk all the time on the show about how, you know, ghosts and spirits and apparitions, it's the, like, extending of life into death, and there is something unnatural about it. And most of the time when we talk about hauntings and spirits, and ghosts and apparitions, we are talking about either somebody who had something unresolved in their life and so that's why, you know, there's this manifestation of energy and— and, you know, sticking around, or some drive that is, like, bigger than even the final chapter of death. Like, that's ultimately a ghost. And for Hamlet, it's both that his father wants revenge, but also that Hamlet needs to know and cannot accept that his father died and has left him. And again, it is so relatable and it is so, like, beautiful and tragic. But there is like— I don't know. It's like— it's like a— a post-credit scene, right? Or like a third or fourth encore. And I have to think that, like, if I'm looking at this and want Hamlet to be happy, I think any, you know, psychologist or something would say like, "Bestie, please, like, we gotta accept this. We gotta, like, let it go. We gotta, like, figure out a way to live in the reality that we're in now." And Hamlet, part of what makes him a compelling character, is he's like, "No. My priority is to know and is to carry out that wish, and to make sure that if I don't get to live, you know, with my father here, the life that I thought, then none of you do." And I don't think that's, like, good or something that I want to carry into my own life, but it is really interesting that permeating this boundary of death and having the ghost not just appear to him, but speak to him, and he swears an oath with his mates in the presence of the ghost, saying that they'll not talk about the ghost, and they'll like use this, like, fiction of madness. Hamlet is, like, trying to do it again and again until he gets it right. And that repetition of the play in the play is a similar theme for me, where it's like, "It's not just enough for this event to have happened, the alleged poisoning, and for me to, like, obsess about it, and my dad to confirm that that's what happened. No, no, I'm gonna, like, play it out again for people to look at. And then a version of it will also take me out." I think Hamlet, if he had time to reflect on those last moments was like, "Yup. No, that's good."
JULIA: Nailed it.
AMANDA: And it's like a little— he made a little diorama for himself, right? Where, like, he can nail it. He gets to choose how he shuffles off this mortal coil and not someone else.
JULIA: I feel like we also— like we— we're talking about, like, the perceived madness of Hamlet and the choice to, like, use madness as a way of disarming the people around him, but we also kind of not ignored, I want to say, but we've kind of drifted over Ophelia and the actual madness.
AMANDA: I was just gonna say.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Wonderful. But the, like, actual madness that she ends up experiencing, which eventually leads to her death. And I didn't touch on like the flower scene or anything like that, because I could, like, you know talk about that all the time, and I also am not a Shakespeare scholar, so I just have a lot of feelings about it, but not, like, actual informed opinions on it. So, Amanda, talk to me a little bit about the— the different forms of madness that we see in the play.
AMANDA: It's really interesting, Julia, and I know there's been a ton of, like, fascinating, you know, derivative works and scholarship published about Ophelia. There's a whole world there that conspirators can, you know jump into and learn more about, including the, like, significance of the flowers, and the herbs, and, like, beautiful paintings and— and all kinds of stuff. But I am really interested in Ophelia and Hamlet as kind of foils here. Because Horatio, you know, like their mates, Horatio like dips in and out, and he's the one kind of left standing at the end. But Ophelia is, like, open-hearted and unblemished almost by, like, tragedy at the beginning of the play, and the literal opposite to Hamlet. And as Hamlet's sort of resolve sharpens, and he starts play acting the grief that he doesn't feel he can express out loud. And Ophelia does the opposite. She goes from being, you know, very like, you know, bubbly and lucid, and talking to her brother and her dad. Like her dad is giving her all kinds of life advice, it's like a famous Polonius monologue.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Reminds me of, like, my most blustery uncle. And then into being deeply affected by, like, the real tragedies that, like, Hamlet brought around her. And it is like womanly grief, it's almost childlike grief. And that always struck me as really interesting, because in the scene where we do get to see her dealing with her grief, and it's the sort of instantiation of her quote-unquote, “madness.” She sings rhymes. She is kind of dressed in like a night dress, like a— like a child would be. And there is something, I think, really, like, touching to me about the fact that, you know, sometimes circumstances strip us down. And at least for me, like in those moments of— of grief or hopelessness, I want to be, like, tucked up like a child and, like, that's the— you know, that yearning for, like, some strong arms to, like, sweep you up and say everything's gonna be okay and take care of things, is the, like, pathos that I feel from Ophelia in those moments.
JULIA: Yeah. And it's— it's— I— I want to say like it sucks what happens to her. Like, it's a real tra—
AMANDA: Because she doesn't deserve it, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. She has perhaps like the most tragic death in this play.
AMANDA: Yeah. And there is some ambiguity we should say as to whether it was intentional, whether it was an accident, what— what level of kind of, like, self-determination there is in Ophelia. People have read Ophelia's death as self-determined and almost feminist. People have read it as like a tragedy that just happens at her or to her.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And again, lots of, you know, stuff you can explore in terms of your personal reading of that moment. But I think you're completely right. She doesn't deserve it.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And I— I feel myself yearning for, like, an explanation or reading that isn't just like Ophelia was around, and shit happened to her, and she died.
JULIA: Man, but shit does happen to her. Like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —the circumstances leading up to her madness and then death, like the fact that she's so spurned by someone that she was convinced was in love with her. The fact that her father was, like, taken from her very suddenly, like, by someone who used to love her and, like, probably, like, promised himself to her and, like, she probably considered that they were going to be married in the future. Like—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —those are terrible things to happen to anyone, let alone someone in a Shakespeare tragedy.
AMANDA: 100%. Yeah. And it's— Hamlet is dealing badly with a shitty circumstance and Ophelia deals, I think, very proportionally with a normal shittier circumstances.
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: Like, they both lose their fathers, neither expected it. Both— you know, they died because of kind of, like, political and interpersonal machinations. And again, like it— it just— she deals proportionally with, like, what's happening to her, I think.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: And I want to kind of afford her that, like, understanding.
JULIA: For sure.
AMANDA: And I think both with Ophelia and Hamlet himself, like as a person who, you know, has mental illness, who I feel self-conscious about how events affect me, versus how they affect like, quote-unquote, "normal or average people." We all know that there's no such thing. But I— I really— I have a lot of, like, love in my heart and a lot of appreciation for a play that takes on the discomfort that people's mental struggles and grief causes to the people around them. Not because there's anything wrong with being honest about it, but because people are deeply uncomfortable by the reminder that quote-unquote, "madness," or grief, or loss, or a circumstance that leads you to behave in ways that seems inconceivable when you're not in it, can truly happen to all of us. I think we've advanced a lot, you know, from the times of like, "Oh, that person is mad, put her away. Don't talk about her life and how she died, whatever."
JULIA: Sending her off to a nunnery.
AMANDA: Exactly. But we also have it in some ways. And so, as always, like, I look to literature, and pop culture, and stories of all kinds to, you know, remind me that my experiences are not unique and that people, you know, much older than me have been dealing with these things and finding them hard. So that— that ultimately is something that I appreciate and, you know, it's a play about people at their worst after terrible circumstances, dealing sort of in their worst moments. And it's not, you know, a fun romp. This is a tragedy, and it's given us some pretty important monologues about, you know, death and considering what that means for you. And I don't know, that's— that's part of a— a balanced meal of literature, I think.
JULIA: That is true. And it— while it—parts of it can be a fun wrong, especially like the gravedigger scene we did—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. Keegan-Michael Key wrung all the comedy he could out of that, baby.
JULIA: Yes. Oh— oh, boy, did he. And it was great. I really liked it. It was a great performance.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: He still made me cry at the end with all of Horatio's moments of tragedy with Hamlet, but, like, still, like, it's a tragedy for a reason. It is a tragedy for a reason. I'm glad that we got a chance to talk about, like, the literal and metaphysical ghost and metaphorical ghost of Hamlet, because I think it's a really interesting one. And, like, while it may not be as supernatural as say Macbeth, or the Tempest, or A Midsummer Night's Dream, I think that it is important to, like, see how we use the supernatural as a metaphor for, like, mental illness and grief, and whatnot. So I am very glad we talked about this.
AMANDA: Yeah. Like, look at this illustration of my copy, Julia. It has the ghost of Hamlet's father, sort of illustrated out of Hamlet's head and hair.
JULIA: Damn.
AMANDA: And I think that's a really beautiful image to stop on.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: All of us are living in our own worlds and intersecting with the real world and other people's worlds as we do it. And sometimes our thoughts and feelings are so strong that they come out of us. And I think that reading that ghost as a physical instantiation of what's going on in Hamlet's world is pretty moving. And I hope conspirators enjoy it as well.
JULIA: Yeah, I think they will. And I think we'll be wrapping up the supernatural Shakespeare series fairly soon. If there's a play that you desperately want to hear about before we wrap this series up, please let me know. But we have a very fun final episode in the works right now, so hit me up for those. I am excited to talk about more Shakespeare all the time. And next time the ghost of your father sends you on a quest for revenge, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
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