Episode 07: Great Floods
/Go beyond Noah and the Ark with great flood myths from Mesopotamia, China, Native North America, and more. We dig into flood origin stories, survival strategies, the merits of Prometheus vs. Spider Grandmother, and way too many puns to count.
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, like us on Facebook, and review us in iTunes to help new listeners find the show. Plus, check out our Patreon for bonus audio content, behind-the-scenes photos, custom recipe cards, and the opportunity to become a producer. Every bit helps as we get our first season off the ground!
Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits podcast, Episode 7: Flood: Special Edition. This is not just one myth from one society for you guys. It's a whole handful of myths from all continents, all different times, all different traditions, explaining something that apparently is very fundamental to human society, great floods, and great destruction and exciting renewal.
JS: You guys know Noah, but I don't think you guys know these other myths. We go from China, we go to Africa, we go to Europe...
AM: Mesopotamia, Europe...
JS: Mesopotamia!
AM: Mesoamerica.
JS: Mesoamerica. We go to Arizona. That's where the Hopi are, right?
AM: Ahh, Yes, we go across the land bridge from Asia to North America. Folks, we're going all the way back and up to the present day to bring you flood myths from throughout the ages.
JS: We'd like to thank everyone who's rated and reviewed us on iTunes. We really appreciate you guys going out there and taking some time to write us up a quick message. It's like super nice to read, Amanda and I were just giggling over our most recent one.
AM: It warms the depths of our heart, it sends a flood of emotion over us.
JS: That was terrible.
AM: Bringing new listeners to the show, it really is the best way to support us. We also, of course, have a Patreon where we're putting all kinds of exciting show notes and sober reflections on our drunken selves. Ahmm, It is a lot of fun for us to put together our Patreon only content every episode. So we'd love if more of you could join us over there.
JS: You only need a donation $3 or more to get some really awesome content.
AM: Yes, and we hope that we'll see you over there. Today we are drinking cruiser cocktails in honor of our flood cruise ship type motif, don't question it, just go with it. Ahh, The best I can say for this cocktail is if you have coconut rum to get rid of and also some orange or pineapple juice. It's an acceptable method, not our best cocktail. But if you check on our Patreon page, you can get a recipe card with these, Ahhh, ingredients and instructions in case you wanted, I don't know, play along. In the meantime, we hope you enjoy Spirits podcast, Episode 7: Flood Edition.
Episode Intro
JS: So Amanda and I, when we were like 9, 10 probably something like that. We were in the same like, Catholic school religion class?
AM: We were.
JS: It's like the thing that we would go to, after real school to get our, Ahmm, like confirmation, not confirmation, communion classes, I guess?
AM: Communion then, confirmation right? It was Sunday school, but it was after school.
JS: Yeah, it was weird. We didn't go to, like a Catholic school or anything. We went to a normal school and then the church was like three blocks away.
AM: Yes, it was held at a Catholic school, but we went to a public school and just went there after our normal class hours and ended for like an hour religious instruction to get our communion and, then confirmation. But most importantly, we're able to stop at the pizza parlor in between school and religious ed.
JS: Yes.
AM: [2:52] Julia likes the pizza.
JS: And also like the, like not 7/11 but drugstore one where you can go get like...
AM: The Suburban Bodega.
JS: Yes, The Suburban...
AM: The Suburban Bodega.
JS: The Suburban Bodega.
AM: Suburban bodega.
JS: Subur.. Ahh, Ok, so it's not gonna happen.
AM: Continuing.
JS: Ahmm, where you get like candy and shit.
AM: Candy, [3:23 inaudible]
JS: Kind of sneak it into your mouth while you're trying to learn about like, [inaudible 3:25]
AM: Oh yeah.. there was no food or gum permitted in this Catholic school.
JS: And yet...
AM: So I specifically remember buying a messenger bag for myself at Limited Too--
JS: Oh my God!
AM: --with my Christmas money-
JS: Oh my God!
AM: -that had a strap in the, or rather that had a pocket in the strap. That, because they could tell if you're reaching into a bag for something. But they couldn't tell if you're reaching into your strap of your messenger bag. There's no pockets there normally. So you would draw out your box of Nerds or your Milky Way or something.
JS: Well, you don't do boxing nerds. It's way too loud.
AM: That's way too loud, you're right.
JS: Anyway, the point of story being...
AM: Milky Way Okay, okay. Okay,
JS: The point of this story being, Amanda. We’ll talk about sneaky snack choices later-
AM: Hmmm..
JS: -was that we both kind of learned the story of, Ahmm, Noah and the Ark together.
AM: We did.
JS: Yes, and the flood myth is like, you know? Most people know the story of Noah and the Ark, right? Like we-
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- can agree we both kind of know. [inaudible 4:24] that is.
AM: Yes. Noah gets a premonition, builds a gigantic...
JS: Well, okay.
AM: Noah gets a, a dispatch from God.
JS: Yes.
AM: What are they? It's another synonym that I'm thinking about?
JS: Yeah
AM: Delivers a prophecy unto Jonah.
JS: Yes.
AM: And...
JS: Jonah? Noah. Noel... We'll do [inaudible 3:38] later. So God brings a prophecy onto Noah. He says, "You got to gather up all the animals and all your family."
AM: Build a giant boat.
JS: Build a giant boat because I will...
AM: Which you'll just inexplicably know how to do, it's fine.
JS: Because Ima flood the earth.
AM: Right, exactly. Cleanse the earth and what's left at the end is this kind of curated group of, of animals--
JS: Yes.
AM: --that Noah has somehow, you know? Miraculously and divinely fit into his boat.
JS: It's like divine eugenics.
AM: Ahh... And probably he would call it a, a cleansing, uhh, flood.
JS: Yes.
AM: But yes.
JS: But basically the same concept.
AM: Sure, God is pressing the reset button as it were.
JS: Yes. That's the story that we learned. But did you know Amanda-
AM: What?
JS: -that there's flood stories from like, all different kinds of cultures?
AM: Hmm, I feel like I recall learning a little bit about Nile flood lore, you know? But I didn't know that there were great flood stories from other cultures.
JS: Yeah, basically, every culture has a flood story.
AM: Hmm...
JS: So we're going to talk a little bit about those today because they're interesting, in where they're different, but all for the fact that they're really, really similar.
AM: Interesting.
JS: And we're gonna kinda see why that is. And you know? What, people give reason to shit like that. So...
AM: I'm In!
JS: Alright!
AM: Let's get some metaphorical residence cross-culture.
JS: So we're going to start like pretty close to like Abrahamic like Middle Eastern kind of thing.
AM: Hmm...
JS: We're going to start with Mesopotamia.
AM: Great.
JS: So...
AM: I love it. And then my like fifth-grade Ancient Cultures report about Mesopotamia.
JS: Hell yeah! Because everyone knows Mesopotamia--
AM: Bring it!
JS: -- is like the first real culture
AM: True.
JS: Ahmm, so basically, if you look at like, Mesopotamia's written history, it's broken down into like, pre-flood...
AM: Clay tablets because they use cuneiform. Ohhhhh!
JS: Thank you for bringing up that sixth-grade knowledge of Mesopotamia, I really appreciate it.
AM: I'm so proud of that knowledge.
JS: So basically, their history is broken up into pre-flood and post-flood.
AM: Cool.
JS: Their story of the flood is the tale of Ziusudra.
AM: Cool.
JS: Basically, it dates back to the 17th century BCE which is actually-
AM: Oh shit.
JS: -before the Genesis [inaudible 6:52]
AM: That, that shit is far back.
JS: Yeah, way, way far.
AM: Wow!
JS: Like people, Bo... barely, people were barely people then.
AM: We had no language.
JS: [inaudible 7:05]
AM: Thinking about it takes us back to an animal state.
JS: Yeah, no.
AM: It's like, carbon date the clay tablets probably, actually.
JS: So in the town of Ziusudra, the Council of Gods decides that they're going to send a flood to destroy mankind, like no real reason.
AM: Okay, two questions.
JS: Go ahead.
AM: The Gods have a council?
JS: Yeah, it's like okay, so you know how like Mount Olympus we talked about the Greeks. You guys know the Greeks.
AM: We know, we got it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: We're good.
JS: There's like a bunch of people.
AM: Yeah, but that's like a like a, you know, Um, patrimony like a hierarchy.
JS: Okay.
AM: There's you know?
JS: Well, this one is more like, not democracy because no one's like...
AM: It's a panel, a roundtable?
JS: Yeah, it's a panel. It's a round table of gods. They're like in a meeting about...
AM: I really like that though. Like that idea. I'm like all the gods had their specialties. One of them is Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and they come together...
JS: I'm gonna say like, you know, they're discussing third quarter, Ahmm...
AM: Earnings.
JS: Earnings.
AM: Yeah, yeah.
JS: They're like, the humans aren't doing it for us. So they're like we're gonna restart.
AM: Cool.
JS: So...
AM: Wait, I'm sorry. The second question is, what did humans do to merit this reset?
JS: There's no real reason.
AM: Who knows?
JS: It's a really patchy story like a lot of the pieces.
AM: Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot it was 3000 years ago.
JS: Ahmm, it was more than that.
AM: 3500 years ago?
JS: Yeah, something like that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Ahmm, so the God, Enki, who's, okay, he's the god of the underworld sea of freshwater.
AM: Make sense?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But like that also, that's not really a thing in any other mythology. This is like super Mesopotamian.
AM: Yeah, yeah!
JS: Like, where do we get our fresh water from? Underground river!
AM: Makes total sense. Yes!
JS: Yeah. Um, so he reaches out to this dude, Ahh, Ziusudra, who's like the ruler of this major city in Mesopotamia.
AM: A human dude?
JS: A human dude.
AM: Okay.
JS: Yes, and so he goes like, Well, listen, we're gonna flood the earth.
AM: Hmm...
JS: It's coming. And so he basically He tells him he has to build a large boat.
AM: Great, I'm seeing the resonances. Also like to point out that you said reach out which is one of my favorite corporate phrases, Ahmm, and also like, this god of the- the salty undersea.
JS: No, fresh undersea.
AM: The fresh undersea, I'm so sorry. Ahmm, sent him a memo, essentially.
JS: Yeah, basically he was like, "Yo, listen up."
AM: Cool!
JS: "I'm sending you email and not CC any of the other guys"
AM: No, no, it's one to one yeah, no BCC.
JS: So he does that. Ahmm...
AM: Ohhhh… No BCC under the sea. Ohhhh!
JS: Oh my god, I can't... I can't deal with you tonight.
AM: I'm on my own best hype man.
JS: You really are. Ahmm... So there's like a whole section that's lost about he actually tells them how to build the boat.
AM: Makes sense.
JS: Which is crazy. Ahmm... but it's, it's
AM: Right.
JS: Right now...
AM: Because Noah was just left-
JS: Yeah...
AM: --with no instruction manual and a hammer
JS: Pretty much. Ahmm… so Ziusudra piles a bunch of people from the city into the boat. It gets tossed around by the waters of the flood, Ahmm, while they were like kind of chill in there, he was like, you know floating on top-
AM: Hmmm..
JS: -of the stuff he sees the sun god, Utu. And Utu is like you know a big fucking deal on the council and shit like that.
AM: Oh sure, the sun is a, is a big deal
JS: Right, so he prostrates himself he sacrifices an ox and a sheep-
AM: Cool.
JS: -and then the flood ends.
AM: Nice.
JS: Like, Utu was like hey he like give me an ox and sheep, so I think we're good.
AM: Oh yeah or even. That's a lot.
JS: Yeah, Ahmm, So...
AM: So, sorry, to be clear, the god or the human did the sacrificing?
JS: The human did the sacrificing.
AM: Okay. How do we know that? Or just like--
JS: It just...
AM: He’s a god, he just do it.
JS: Yeah, it’s just like...
AM: Okay.
JS: It's like if Zeus came in front-
AM: like [inaudible 10:44] ourselves...
JS: of me kill this ox for you right now. Ahmm.. you guys didn't see that. But I made like a, a neck slashing kind of thing.
AM: You just, you casually sawed off the neck of the joke. So whatever.
JS: Fine, whatever...
AM: Whatever.
JS: Ahmm, So flood ends, the people are saved. Ziasudra, thanks to the gods, specifically on the sky god because he's also a big deal he's very like Zeus-esque and a God called, Enlil, who is the God of Lord Breath or Eternal Life
AM: That seems, it's like a worthy thing to assign a god to.
JS: I think so. So them, being like you know you did good you realize you were at fault you sacrifice some stuff.
AM: Yeah.
JS: You did a good job. They give him eternal life or-
AM: Dope.
JS: --breath eternal.
AM: That's makes some sense. Like, a god is breathing into you-
JS: Yeah.
AM: A force that will animate you forever.
JS: Kind of like how Adam got the life of God breathed into him and that's how he became human.
AM: Not as familiar with that part of Genesis, but yes, I believe you.
JS: Were talking about that at some point, I'm sure.
AM: Dope.
JS: So he then, you know, is eternal now and he gets sent to this Paradise Garden like, super similar to Eden
AM: Dope.
JS: Which was like it was an actual city but like the people who lived at Southern Mesopotamia it was in Northern Mesopotamia they're like, that's like a garden of fantasy and [inaudible 12:00].
AM: Right, that is literally just 400 miles away.
JS: It's so nice. So that's the Mesopotamian myth. You can kind of see where the biblical story like gets. It's kind of relation from.
AM: Yeah, [inaudible] right.
JS: Stuff like that. So that's pretty cool. Also in that area, we have the Babylonian story.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So the Babylonian story is like, probably out of all of them the most similar to the Genesis story. So this is the one featuring Gilgamesh and do you know who Gilgamesh is?
AM: I've heard about him as a literary figure.
JS: Yes, and that's who he is.
AM: Yes, okay.
JS: Um, so he's basically like this hero Babylonian story he like, tries to reclaim death. He does like a bunch of stuff that like any mythological hero would do. But in this story, he basically Noah. It's the same story, but they make a point of saying like, oh, he saves all the animals too. So like in the Mesopotamian one...
AM: It was just humans.
JS: It was just humans-
AM: Yeah.
JS: -except for like, I guess they brought a couple of like livestock on to-
AM: To feed themselves.
JS: -to feed themselves.
AM: Right, and that makes sense to me. It’s like, it's up to the gods to repopulate the, the fruits of the earth.
JS: Right.
AM: Like why [inaudible 12:58]
JS: [inaudible] fuck ourselves. Until we get to Gilgamesh and they're like you need to bring all these animals on.
AM: He's like, oh, fuck.
JS: Okay, I guess we can do that.
AM: Fine, fine I guess.
JS: But basically, the Genesis story. Same concept the getting into the boat God floods the earth, he like is sorry about stuff and then they stop flooding at them.
AM: Wait, so in, in the, in the Noah version does he repent and that stops the flood of God which is like 40 days it's gonna happen--
JS: Yeah.
AM: --come at the other side, you're already righteous.
JS: Right, pretty much, Noah's one like kind of sacrifices he sends the dove out, I guess. And that's like it comes back in...
AM: Ohh, to sort of signal the...
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: It's like, we're good?
AM: And so in Gilgamesh...
JS: Umm,
AM: I'm sorry in the Mesopotamian story...
JS: Yeah.
AM: Was... are humankind like repenting for sins like why or did they just like correctly decided to sacrifice in the face of the sun god?
JS: I think it's kind of super like, Ahmm did you see the really bad, The Titans movie? The Clash of the Titans with the somewhat hot guy from Avatar, isn't it?
AM: No, I don't think so
JS: The one that plays Zeus.
AM: No.
JS: No? Okay. So basically, the whole concept is like the humans aren't worshiping us enough.
AM: Okay.
JS: They're not giving us like the praise that we deserve.
AM: So let me show you our mighty power.
JS: Exactly.
AM: Right, okay.
JS: So that's kind of where they're at.
AM: Okay, got it. Sorry.
JS: So the next story I'm talking about we have a bunch of stories because there are shit ton of myth flood stories.
AM: Bring it.
JS: Hinduism.
AM: I'm thirsty for these floods.
JS: I know you... oh my fucking god!
AM: Boom! I'm on a roll!
JS: I was gonna like actually go along with that. But I'm like, no, that’s- that's terrible. I refuse.
AM: Wait, sorry. So just to, just to round up the Babylonian myth. It's notable because it's just like Noah and they were animals included, and that's that.
JS: Yeah, and it was before the actual Genesis story. So Hinduism, several texts include a bunch of stories about a great flood. But the most, like, prominent story, is the story of Matsya, who's an Avatar of Vishnu who's like, Supreme God in Hinduism.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And I'm sure we'll talk about Hinduism at some point, but it's his avatar, which is a certain like form of the main God and it takes the form of a fish.
AM: Cool.
JS: You know? So he warns the first man, kind of like their version of Adam.
AM: Right.
JS: Whose name is way too on the nose, Manu.
AM: Oh, Manu, of course. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. So he warns him that there's the impending flood and that he should build the boat. Shocker, Shocker!
AM: A lot of pressure on the first man. This is just like, this is just like, hey, person, you’re the first man also we're going to flood your entire Earth.
JS: Learn how to build a boat, bitch!
AM: Learn how to build a boat, pushing it out of the nest. Welcome to life!
JS: And kind of the important difference between the Hinduism story and like all the others is that Matsya kind of is like, "Okay, listen, you're gonna be in a boat for a really long time and we're going to destroy the Earth. You know, you should do? Collect all the green, all the different plants, in the world you should collect--
AM: Makes sense.
JS: - and bring on the boat with you."
AM: Also, that's a thing that we have.
JS: Yeah.
AM: We have seed banks.
JS: Yeah
AM: That are in the Arctic or the Antarctic one of them, one of the poles of the earth. We do, we have facilities of-of.
JS: I'm trying to remember which pole. Is it the North Pole?
AM: It, it could... I think it is North. It, it could also be, in like Canada or Alaska or somewhere.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah, I know, really far the Northern countries. Anyway, point being, we have a, you know? Very, very cold seed bank where if humanity were to go to shit, I mean, Iceland actually.
JS: Alright.
AM: We already have, you know, little samples of all of the heirloom-
JS: Yeah.
AM: -fruits and vegetables that we can.
JS: And one of our favorite movies Mad Max Fury Road-
AM: It's true.
JS: - also has that kind of concept where she has the bag full of seeds and stuff to repopulate the Earth with.
AM: She does.
JS: So the next one we're gonna go to is one of my favorites. Bet you didn't know that the Greeks had a flood story!
AM: Yo!
JS: Yo, my fave!
AM: Back to the Greeks.
JS: Yeah. So basically, it's this idea that Ahmmm, there were like different generations of humans. Which like, the Greeks kind of got right. Like, there were.
AM: Like society. Like, versions of society,
JS: Right.
AM: Yeah, there is.
JS: So basically, they're like, the gods aren't happy with the bronze race of people. Zeus is being like hella races against the bronze people.
AM: Hmmm...
JS: Like don't do that. And this is, story told by Plato so Plato was also being kind of racist against the bronze people.
AM: Oh, yeah, plastic Plato.
JS: So, they were constantly like making war and pissing off Zeus like just being douchebags and not worshiping enough, which is a common theme.
AM: I'm sensing a theme, yeah.
JS: So he punishes them by causing a flood because he's like, the sky god, you know?
AM: Makes sense.
JS: He can make center for the fuck he wants. So Prometheus...
AM: Fire person.
JS: Yes, he's always been a fan of humans. He's the one who gave us fire. He's the one who like--
AM: Dope.
JS: --brought us out from being huddling, scared children.
AM: Good one, Prometheus, we were cold. Thank you.
JS: Thank you, much appreciated.
AM: Also, meat tastes better now.
JS: Sorry that you got your liver picked up by an eagle every single day because of it.
AM: Oh right, that's true.
JS: That's not super cool.
AM: Literal worst, God, what are the Greeks doing all day that they had to like...
JS: They think the worst way to get punished.
AM: They had to like, invent styles of Socratic dialogue and also terrible liver myths.
JS: So Prometheus, hearing what Zeus is gonna do, tells his son who's human well, demigod, but like, human.
AM: Okay.
JS: Deucalion that he is- needs to build an ark.
AM: So, just saving his son.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So did he get punished for that? Or? [inaudible 18:24]
JS: It doesn't matter either way.
AM: So what would the consequences of the flood?
JS: Killed all of the Bronze Age humans.
AM: Oh, and reset the thing.
JS: Reset it. And that's what brought about, like the Golden Age, Hellenic.
AM: Right, Alexander-type thing
JS: Yeah, the Greeks.
AM: Interesting, also pretty racist.
JS: Yeah, super, super racist. Not, not a fan of that one, Greeks, sorry.
AM: Thanks, Plato.
JS: Then we kind of get away from Europe a little bit, which is good.
AM: Great. Because what I did want to point out is, this is all kind of around the like Indian Ocean and Mediterranean basin. Ahmm, and I mean, like, that's what really societies were.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Obviously, the cradle, what is it called of the Fertile Crescent?
JS: The Fertile Crescent.
AM: There cradle of humanity, etc, etc.
JS: Yes.
AM: Not the cradle of aviation, which is an excellent Museum in Westbury, Long Island.
JS: And I work there!
AM: If you ever find yourself with kids something to do. Anyway, so it makes total sense like they depend on, on seasonal flooding to you know, make their farms fertile and whatnot like flooding is a...
JS: Big fucking deal.
AM: Is a big fucking deal. And if it's wrong, they're serious consequences for all society. So it makes total sense. But where are we going outside of Europe?
JS: We're going to Africa!
AM: Excellent, literal cradle of humanity.
JS: Yes. So, it's really interesting because a lot of the African myths are very similar despite the fact that a bunch of tribes and civilizations have like kind of different twists on it. But I'm only talking about like the basic concept but like, there, we're going to talk about the Messiah version of the story. So it like you were saying the rivers flood it's not just like a giant flood. It’s like, the rivers are specifically flooding. And so in order to save the human race, Ahmm, the Supreme God, which like, you know? There's a lot of different mythology and different deities in Africa, but there's always a concept of the Supreme God, even-
AM: Yeah, thousands of tribes and religions.
JS: Yeah, yeah. So the Supreme God tells two people to get into a ship. He tells them to take lots of seeds and lots of animals, not all of them.
AM: Great.
JS: Just like, you know, the ones that they like.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Ahmm, So the flood rises so high that it covers the mountains like that's a really specific point.
AM: Oh, Wow, yeah,
JS: Like, straight-up covers all the mountains.
AM: That's quite an image, right. Yeah.
JS: Yeah, seriously, the humans allow a dove, a dove.
AM: Hmmm...
JS: And a hawk lose. So the dove returns, but the hawk does not. So like, basically, it's like the dove was like, okay, so like, things are cool.
AM: [inaudible 20:43]
JS: Like, there's food out there. I'm gonna find it.
AM: Oh, yeah, that's really sweet.
JS: So…
AM: I like that.
JS: It is cool, right? And then I mean, again, it's super similar to that Genesis myth, but that's like, you know, it's not that the Genesis myth is like the correct one. It's just like, it's the one that we know the best. So...
AM: Right. You and I know the best. Yeah, and it's also kind of in our, you know? Our cultural canon.
JS: And so switching up continents again, we're going to China.
AM: Dope, East Asia, bring it.
JS: So China probably has like, the longest flood story.
AM: In duration of the timeline of the story?
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay.
JS: So like, you know? We're used to the 40 days and 40 nights.
AM: Yes
JS: The Chinese...
AM: A one-time calamitous flood.
JS: Right. The Chinese, Ahh, flood actually takes place over two generations.
AM: Wow.
JS: So ummm.
AM: Oh!! I'm having an idea for a YA novel now. It's like, do you know that there's- there's so there's this fantasy series that was self-published on Amazon called, Wool.
JS: Okay.
AM: It's a Silo series, and the whole idea like the City of Ember novels, if you recall those.
JS: Yes.
AM: And like humanity has to live underground because something terrible happened, etc, etc.
JS: Hmm...
AM: There are twists it's actually a really great series.
JS: Oh, no, it's really good.
AM: Hugh Howey, I think is the Wool author and then the City of Ember series. Anyway, what I'm saying is, you know? What, what is the generation that was born and died in the flooded world, that's amazing.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I want to write about that.
JS: It's crazy good.
AM: So what did, what did China say?
JS: So basically, it's like it's a big theme for them is like displacement because people had to once the flooding happened, people had to leave their homes for the high hills. And the mountains or like start living as tree people like, treehouses.
AM: Sure.
JS: Like just hang out and trees. Basically, the whole thing is like major rivers flooded and then the kingdom tries to contain it.
AM: Okay.
JS: There was a prince his name was Prince Gun. Ahh, that that's his name [inaudible 22:33] and they named him Prince Gun, whatever.
AM: I see.
JS: So, he uses this idea of this like self-expanding soil, called Xirang, which he steals from the supreme divinity.
AM: So self-expanding like kitty litter like you toss a handful of salted it becomes soil.
JS: Yeah, kind of.
AM: Kind of thing, right?
JS: So he wants to use that to kind of like, work with the rivers and dams and stuff. You know? Like, make actual like walls that'll keep the rivers from flooding and stuff.
AM: Oh I see so like, a kind of like smart putty.
JS: Yes.
AM: To dam and the rivers.
JS: Yes.
AM: Cool.
JS: Um, so he tries to use that but the supreme divinity finds out and he like knocks over all the dams and like punishes him and the flood continues.
AM: I like how I said, Smart Soil.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like, I said, so it's not like a Wi-Fi enabled fridge.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Like a smart device.
JS: Sure.
AM: I like that idea that the soil is like, “Hey, palace, bad things. Ah! Wet.” Circuitry doesn't mix well.
JS: Umm, So from there like a bunch of different people kind to try and, like end the flood through acts of heroism. Like, that's a really big focus, like, Oh, this person tried this and they save this many people, but they're...
AM: Oh, sure.
JS: Overall, they were unsuccessful.
AM: That's really nice though. Like, kind of individual, ultimately futile, but still noble human acts of self-sacrifice.
JS: Yeah. So basically, none are successful until Gun’s son comes in. Yu, Ahmm, and so Yu opens up the paths of the rivers and streams to the ocean to help them drain out.
AM: Make sense.
JS: And it kind of gets this idea from the god, Hebo who's the God of the Yellow River, which is like-
AM: Yeah.
JS: - a big river for, Umm, like, civilized China at that point.
AM: Yes.
JS: Um, So he kind of made-
AM: The Nile of the East.
JS: Right.
AM: If you will.
JS: So he kind of makes him like a map. He's like, this is how the rivers go, here's where the ocean is. This is what you have to do and he was like, "Alright."
AM: That's dope.
JS: Thanks, bro. That's like...
AM: And also, really cool as well, like you, you know, you can't work against nature. You can build up walls to keep it in. But you can work with the topography, right?
JS: Right.
AM: Like, you can, you know, give the river and natural outlet to do what it's meant to do. You can't stomp up the tide, but you can help it go somewhere better.
JS: And it's like a whole thing where this is kind of the story of how they understand how to do like irrigation and stuff like that.
AM: Dope! I love agriculture.
JS: Oh good.
AM: Good job, China! Terrace farming!
JS: So... So really, if you're looking at it, China has like the most realistic flood story.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And like also like, the...
AM: That's the natural event, right.
JS: This is the thing that happened then we like, got past it and now we're better people for it.
AM: I love that.
JS: Isn't that like so great?
AM: Yeah.
JS: So we're going to jump continents again. We're going to... North America!
AM: Excellent.
JS: Ahmm, So...
AM: The second greatest America.
JS: Okay. We're gonna go to, it's a bunch of different Native American myths. For this one, we're gonna go to the Hopi tribe, the Native Americans have a bunch of different myths because there's so many different, Ahh... cold tribes.
AM: Tribes [inaudible 25:31]
JS: --and stuff. Ahh...But these are the ones who kind of, have the most specific flood story-
AM: Hmm...
JS: -and like, maybe the longest one and kind of the most like.
AM: It's like the Hopi have a lot of water-based...
JS: Right.
AM: Ahmm, lore.
JS: despite the fact that they were lived in a desert.
AM: Yeah, but, and water is precious, right?
JS: Hmm...
AM: And like, yeah,
JS: Basically, the whole story of the flood is that it leads to the fourth world. So the Hopi breakdown their history into the first world, the second world, the third world, the fourth world, which is the one we live in now.
AM: Oh, they were sequential?
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay, cool.
JS: Ahmm, but they're different, like periods of time and different like--
AM: Yes, eras.
JS: --different eras for the tribe.
AM: Cool.
JS: Basically, the god, Tawa destroyed the third world with the great flood.
AM: Uhm-hmm...
JS: Before it happens though, Spider Grandmother, which is like the best name-
AM: Oh, Ohh...
JS: -for any god, ever.
AM: I love that.
JS: I love it.
AM: Tell me more.
JS: It's so good. Ahm, So she seals all the righteous people, kinda like the rapture. Ahh...
AM: The righteous meaning the good one?
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes.
JS: Ahmm, in hollow reeds.
AM: Ohh... [inaudible 26:34]
JS: like giant-
AM: Oh!
JS: -hollow reeds like just put all the people in there
AM: That's so cool.
JS: Ahmm...
AM: That’s like a silo but for a person. Yes.
JS: Ahmm, which they use his boats to float around during the flood.
AM: That's awesome, canoes.
JS: Yeah. Ahmm... So it takes a while, but finally, like all these people land on an island so they get out of there like little reed boats.
AM: Reed boats, yeah.
JS: Umm, and they look around, but all they see is like water everywhere.
AM: Right.
JS: Then Spider Grandmother reappears to them. She says look these islands are stepping stones to the New Qorld, and that you people can use it to sail East until they reach it.
AM: Was this the Asia to America--
JS: That's...
AM: -- myth?
JS: That's the assumption.
AM: Fuck Yes!
JS: Ohh yeah. Isn't cool?
AM: Ohhhh! So cool!
JS: So cool. So you really can kind of see them going from like, China area and then taking the Polynesian islands all the way until America
AM: I think it's over the land bridge into Alaska and down.
JS: Possibly, but like-
AM: Either way.
JS: -if you see where the Hopi are, and kind of like see the island layout. It kind of makes more sense for it to be Polynesian but that's just my opinion. I am not a-
AM: I don't think-
JS: -Geographical Historian.
AM: -you had an awareness of the, of the you know? continent to the West though. In any case, the fact that they canonically actually human beings came over landbridge from Africa up through East Asia into the North, you know?
JS: Yeah!
AM: The American continent. That is dope!
JS: Isn't that cool shit?
AM: Good job, Hopi. Also, any Native Indigenous listeners, we would love to hear about your mythology, and, and tribe folklore. So please get in touch.
JS: Yes, and we're going to talk about the last one-
AM: Great.
JS: -which is Mesoamerica.
AM: Cool.
JS: Ahmm, So scholars kind of, have a weird, like debate about the Mesoamerican thing. Because there's, there's like arguments that like, "Well clearly when the Spanish came over, they brought their Genesis stories with them, and these were influenced by them."
AM: Okay.
JS: But others say like, these are stories that are persisted way before the Colombian exchange. But there's a couple of interesting different ones.
AM: Cool.
JS: So, I'm going to talk about those. I'm going to start with like a super weird one. Just because I thought it was like really interesting.
AM: Bring it. And the Spider Grandma. I don't know if he can, if he can top this though.
JS: Okay. Umm... So a man and his dog are the sole survive... survivors of the flood.
AM: Excellent, sounds like, On the Road.
JS: Ahh, the man goes hunting one day and comes back and the dog has taken the shape of a woman.
AM: Ahhh... fine.
JS: They repopulate the earth.
AM: Okay, okay!
JS: Just weird like, hot dog lady at this guy repopulate the Earth.
AM: Yeah, but also like, also like the, the like, Dude hero you know? Dream of like, my only companion is my dog. Oh wait, it's a hot woman-
JS: No, it’s a hot[inaudible 29:15]
AM: -everyone wins and my everyone, I mean the man.
JS: Yes! Pretty much.
AM: The more things change, the more they say the same.
JS: Ahmm, So the Aztecs have another story where it's basically human couple survives the flood.
AM: Great!
JS: Ahh, this time they survived, Umm... without god intervention. Ahh...
AM: Makes sense.
JS: That by hiding out in a hollow vessel.
AM: So smart.
JS: They're smart basically until they start cooking fish because they need to eat. The gods smell the smoke and the cooking meat-
AM: Oh shit!
JS: -and then they get turned into... I think dogs or monkeys, it depends on the translation
AM: And then what happens to humans?
JS: Meh!
AM: Who knows?
JS: Nah, it doesn't matter.
AM: Wow! I-I don't think I've ever heard of a religious or mythological story where the gods have a sense of smell.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know?
JS: Well, God does in Genesis.
AM: Has a sense of smell?
JS: Yeah.
AM: What happens?
JS: He like, so if you look at the story of Cain and Abel, Abel is more favored because he makes meat sacrifices and it says in the story like, God likes the smell of burning meat?
AM: Ohhh...
JS: So like...
AM: Yeah!
JS: Yeah. Genesis is weird because it's got two versions in it. it's got like the priestly version-
AM: Yeah.
JS: -and the, Ahmm...
AM: Fit for you know? Ahh, church consumption.
JS: Right. And the Yahweh's version and one is more like God is omnipotent. And like, you know? He's just a floating being and made of light-
AM: Yeah.
JS: -and energy. And then the other one is like, God is like a dude kind of like, the like Zeus is a dude.
AM Right.
JS: Like he walks around, he __ stuff [inaudible 30:45]
AM: Yeah.
JS: He's on the ground to make Adam instead of just like snapping his fingers and then a human right there.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So...
AM: Wow, [inaudible 30:47] that about hit, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Wow. I have to, we have to revisit the, the gods [inaudible 30:53].
JS: I'm gonna have to do some Genesis talk at some point too.
AM: I like it.
JS: All right. And then the last one is a Mayan story. So the Mayan Gods tried to create creatures that would worship them. They do it like three different times and they're just not happy with the results.
AM: And do humans exist or humans don't exist yet?
JS: No, they're making creatures.
AM: I see.
JS: And the,n finally they come up with humans. And so they decide, "Okay, we're going to make these humans later. But first, we got to destroy all our other beings-."
AM: The prototypes
JS: "-who were all made of wood."
AM: Okay, convenient.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Set them on fire.
JS: Yeah. Well, no flood.
AM: I, as I said it, I thought, "Wait, Amanda, what is..."
JS: This is a flood story.
AM: What is the thing that the other eight stories you've covered have in common?
JS: Flood story.
AM: Its water.
JS: So yeah. So basically, it's always really interesting because it's like, a select number of people always survive, usually there's god intervention-
AM: Yeah.
JS: -in all of our flood stories. It's usually because they're like, righteous or favored.
AM: Hmm...
JS: But like, there's no one, no one's like particularly like Wiley[ 32:01] like, except for that one story where the human couple survived but then got turned into dogs.
AM: Right.
JS: Like no one's like, “Oh, there's a flood coming.”
AM: There's something coming, hep.
JS: Something's happening.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I've got to do something about it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Like, it's never really like that that they need that intervention from the god.
AM: For what to do.
JS: Otherwise, they're like idiots and they get drown.
AM: They rise to the occasion.
JS: Yeah And then like, you know?
AM: [inaudible 32:22]
JS: Yes.
AM: Rise to the occasion.
JS: And it kind of goes back to what we were talking about when we were talking about Kelpies and Selkies with like, water representing like, death but also renewal and life.
AM: Exactly.
JS: And you know? Bring it all together.
AM: Yeah, destruction, and fertility
JS: And that newer purer and cleaner world.
AM: Yeah, right? A big, a big cleansing tide.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I love it.
JS: Gotta love those. Oh, so basically, from like a historical perspective, most historians can kind of like come to the agreement, like, wow, all these myths have flood stories. There was probably a flood at some point.
AM: Yeah, yeah.
JS: But like, all of these, all of these cultures probably aren't making this shit up.
AM: Yes, and like, you know, seasonal flooding is one thing, but certainly a calamitous flood event, you know? Happening to all of these, you know? What do we call them ancient civilizations, foundational civilizations? It makes total sense that you, you know, fold that into myth.
JS: Yeah, pretty much.
AM: And I think that is something that we forget in this day and age like, we talk about, you know, the coming eco Apocalypse, right? Like the- the, you know? The Global Warming is going to ruin the world as we know it.
JS: Hmm...
AM: or I think maybe now that we have a longer view of our planet as not being eternal, you know? Like, we realized that, that planets are made and are consumed and stars you know? Are born and die. Like, it's, it's hard for us to think about. There being phases to civilizations and histories being written and lost. But I think that these flood stories are, are sort of inherently optimistic, you know? That maybe there is something better coming after the flood.
JS: Yes.
AM: Coming after the, you know? The calamitous event.
JS: Like finally, our world can start anew because we wiped out everything that was shitty about it.
AM: Right, with every act of destruction there is there's potential for real...
JS: Yeah, which I feel like a lot of apocalyptic movies kind of have like once everything goes to shit, you kind of see how beautiful the world really is.
AM: Absolutely, Year of the Flood by Margaret Atwood.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Not quite optimistic but a great read.
JS: Yes.
AM: I have to recommend it. Thanks, Jules.
JS: No problem.
Outro
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allison Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits and your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio, extras, director's commentary, blooper reels and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you liked the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes, it really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, 'til next time.
Transcriptionist:
Mary Grace De Guzman
Proofreader:
Krizia Marrie Castle