174: Gargoyles
/Sure, we talk about mythology all the time, but what if we talked about mythology AND architecture AND science? So we’re diving deep on gargoyles to find out how they went from architectural necessities to living creatures in folklore!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of age-inappropriate crushes, religious influence, murder, fire/burning, sexual assault, and incarceration.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Rebecca Solnit’s Recollections of My Nonexistence! Buy a copy and see our new lists of previous recommendations, guest books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Multitude: Join the MultiCrew at multicrew.club, and check out Next Stop in your podcast player or nextstopshow.com!
Sponsors
- Skillshare is an online learning community where you can learn—and teach—just about anything. Visit skillshare.com/spirits2 to get two months of Skillshare Premium for free! This week Amanda recommends “Making Your First Zine: From Idea to Illustration” by Kate Bingaman-Burt.
- Stitch Fix is an online personal styling service that finds and delivers clothes, shoes, and accessories to fit your body, budget, and lifestyle. Get started at stitchfix.com/spirits for 25% off when you keep your whole box!
- ThirdLove is on a mission to find a perfect bra for everyone. Get 15% off your first order at thirdlove.com/spirits.
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at spiritspodcast.com/books.
Transcripts are available at spiritspodcast.com/episodes. To buy merch, hear us on other podcasts, contact us, find our mailing address, or download our press kit, head on over to SpiritsPodcast.com.
About Us
Spirits was created by Julia Schifini, Amanda McLoughlin and Eric Schneider. We are founding members of Multitude, an independent podcast collective and production studio. Our music is "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod (http://incompetech.com), licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
Amanda:
Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia:
And I'm Julia.
Amanda:
And this is Episode 174: Gargoyles.
Julia:
Yeah, I am actually really excited to kind of dig into this one. It has been a minute since I think we've covered something a little bit more recent, so I think this is a perfect kind of light episode in these somewhat trying times.
Amanda:
Got to tell you I did not expect so much architecture in this episode that I really should have and it was an absolute pleasure.
Julia:
I'm glad. I'm glad. I think everyone's going to be a little bit surprised about just how sweet gargoyles are despite the usual portrayals in media.
Amanda:
Do you know who's also really sweet? It's our newest patrons, Andy, Stressed but Well-Dressed (amen), Chrissy, Brody, Jen and Adalure.
Julia:
Yeah, you guys are wonderful. I have noticed that we were getting a lot of new patrons. We really appreciate you and a lot of people who are upping their pledges and you all are wonderful humans. We appreciate your support now more than ever.
Amanda:
Absolutely. It makes us a lot less stressed to know that you have our backs and we know it is not an easy thing and we so, so appreciate anybody who is able to support us on Patreon.
Amanda:
These new patrons joined the ranks of our distinguished supporting producer level patrons: Philip, Landon, Nicki, Tyree, Megan, Debra, Molly, Dachshund, Samantha, S. Shaw, Neil, Jessica, and Phil Fresh. And our legend level patrons: Milena, Kylo the Husky, Francis, Clara, Lacy, Brittany, Josie, Kylie Morgan, Bea Me Up Scotty, Audra, Necro Fancy, Mark, Mr. Volk, Sarah, and Jack Murray.
Julia:
I always like the little giggle you have when you read Necro Fancy.
Amanda:
It really, really makes me smile Julia. As did the drink being made for this episode. Can you please tell us a little bit about it? I know we described it after the refill, but just give folks a little preview.
Julia:
Yeah, so it is a Green Gargoyle. I think you're going to be very pleased if like me, you haven't been really having a lot of fresh tasting drinks or food. So I think it is the perfect like refresher drink to kind of liven up your spirits a little bit. Get it, spirits?
Amanda:
I get it. And it was green.
Julia:
Yeah it was green.
Amanda:
I was also really delighted this week to read something that I'd love to share with you and all the conspirators out there. One of my favorite writers in the world is Rebecca Solnit who wrote Men Explain Things to Me that a lot of folks may have heard about several years ago but has written I think almost a dozen books, some of which are memoirs, some of which are nonfiction and kind of personal narrative sort of strewn together.
Amanda:
And I love her writing. Any book she publishes is an auto buy for me. So most recently I was able to check out Recollections of My Non-Existence, a memoir, which is all about kind of her formation and kind of coming up as a feminist in San Francisco in the 80s on talking about things like gender and equity, but also about how she sort of came to be more aware of what other women go through and why it's really important for people to just have solidarity in trying times, especially around violence.
Amanda:
So I really enjoyed it even though definitely had some subject matter. A lot of it is ultimately about gender and family and joy and solidarity, which I really needed.
Julia:
It sounds like a really good read for people. I think that they should definitely check it out.
Amanda:
Absolutely. And if you're looking for more stuff to kind of fill your time, make you smile, teach you a bit, may I humbly recommend the other shows on Multitude.
Amanda:
We have such joys as HORSE, which recently went into all the ways in which NBA Twitter is actually really good. Specifically how a lot of folks on Twitter have advocated for the billionaire owners of NBA franchises to pay their staff, which is awesome.
Amanda:
We have Potter Lists where Mike has been listening and watching to some deleted bonus scenes from the movies which I have never heard about, as we discussed a person who doesn't own Blu-rays or DVDs. It is very exciting to hear what these scenes were actually all about and of course hear his take on it.
Amanda:
And then there is Join the Party. We just released some new art that Alison Wakeman who designed both the Spirits and the Join the Party logos had a wonderful broody and neon kind of very spirits in a way refresh to the art that I am beyond excited about.
Amanda:
David Ryan Strum, a former guest on Spirits voiced a wonderful trailer that Eric Silver wrote for the show and I could not be more excited about episode one of the new campaign of Join the Party coming out next week. So it is a wonderful time to join.
Julia:
It really, really is. Definitely check out the rest of the Multitude shows. We have such backlogs cause we've been doing this for a very long time and if you are running out of things to listen to, it is the perfect time to check all of those out.
Amanda:
And just two weeks from this week, Next Stop premieres. We have a wonderful bit of bonus audio out featuring Brian David Gilbert of you know, the internet and Polygon. And if you know him, you know that he is an incredible improviser and very funny and sort of dead pan person. So having him play a wifi support technician was absolutely wonderful.
Amanda:
So check out Next Stop and all the Multitude shows in your podcast player. Just type the word multitude and enjoy all the shows. And that's head, heart, gut with multi-crew. So much to enjoy.
Julia:
So much, so much content. We put out so much content.
Amanda:
We truly, truly do. And as always, it means so much to us whether you are supporting the show by sharing it with your friends and tagging us in your Instastory or taking their phone and opening Spotify and having them listen. And finally we just wanted to thank everybody who's been supporting the show recently and we see you joining with your Patreon pledges. We see you tagging us on Twitter and on Instagram as you share lists of your favorite podcasts with your friends. Every little bit helps, whether that is with money or not.
Amanda:
And as special thank you we are bringing back a much loved feature from years ago on Patreon, which is the poetry corner. It's where I sit Julia down captive and make her listen to me read poetry and then we talk about mythological poems and origins and we're releasing it for all of our patrons every single Friday for the foreseeable future just as our thank you to you.
Julia:
Yeah, you make it sound like you're trapping me in order to read poetry to me, but really it's absolutely delightful.
Amanda:
Well, I'm glad you enjoy it. This first we came back with was a wild ride. There was a dramatic reveal. Julia almost fell off her chair. I laughed until my throat was hoarse. It's a ride.
Julia:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amanda:
So go to patreon.com/spirits podcast to join at any level and all patrons can enjoy the poetry corner every Friday for the next little while. So without further ado, thank you again and enjoy Spirits podcast, Episode 174: Gargoyles.
Julia:
Amanda. When I say the word gargoyle, what is the first image that pops into your head?
Amanda:
Hey stone face the greaser from Join the Party.
Julia:
Of course. I don't know why I am surprised by that answer but here we are.
Amanda:
And also probably the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
Julia:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Same for me. Yeah, Hunchback of Notre Dame is definitely a pretty prominent one. I also think of the Disney TV show Gargoyles from the 90s.
Amanda:
I have a very vague memory of this.
Julia:
It was definitely a thing. Fun fact. I didn't realize Keith, David Williams was the main character until years later, and that guy has a great voice. Amanda, you would know Keith David Williams as he joins the season of Community in either the fifth or sixth season.
Amanda:
Oh hell yes. Love this guy.
Julia:
Yeah, he's also done a bunch of voice acting work and stuff like that. He's a fantastic actor. Highly recommend checking out his work.
Amanda:
I feel like I've seen him on the stage before.
Julia:
Maybe. He kind of looks like he should be playing Hermes in Haiti Stone.
Amanda:
He does. He does resemble that actor, but like 20 years younger.
Julia:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). For sure. But Amanda, as much as we're thinking about these representations of gargoyles and media, the moving animated stone creature the gargoyle has a much more utilitarian origin.
Amanda:
Really?
Julia:
Yeah. So we're going to start the episode talking about something that we love here on Spirits, but we don't talk about nearly enough: architecture.
Amanda:
Oh my God. I love architecture and I love mythology and I am so here for this. I don't care that other people are making jokes today. The world is a joke and I need to talk about architecture.
Julia:
Yeah, no, it's fair. And I just want to talk about things that we don't always talk about here on the show. I talk about science in my notes later. You'll see. It's going to be great. Anyway.
Amanda:
Julia, I fully read you a speech from Shakespeare in two weeks ago. So I am here for it.
Julia:
You did. You did do that. It was delightful, but you did do that so, thank you.
Julia:
So interestingly, gargoyles are part of a larger architectural feature called a grotesque, which specifically is a depiction of a figure that is used for decorative purposes. Pretty straightforward.
Amanda:
Okay.
Julia:
They're also known as a boss, which I love. Basically a boss is any kind of knob or protrusion made of stone or wood.
Amanda:
Very good.
Julia:
Or they're known as a Chimera, which we know from being students of mythology and folklore and also like science is typically a creature that combines several different features of several different animals. Your favorite, Amanda, your absolute favorite?
Amanda:
My absolute, absolute fav.
Julia:
Do you have one that you just like, all right, you know what, I can deal with this.
Amanda:
I'm pretty okay with sea creatures with each other, but a human plus any kind of animal is just not good for me. But like the Griffin is extremely cute.
Julia:
All right. Yeah. Yeah. Animal plus animal Amanda does not mind so long as they are slightly in the same category I feel like. You wouldn't be into scorpion bear, but like bear hawk is fine.
Amanda:
No that is kind of cute. That is kind of cute. I like scorpion bear. What I don't love is proportions being off. So like snake with centaur legs and it's just a super long Dachshund horse I'm not super into, you know what I mean?
Julia:
As long as the proportions are good, Amanda is down for it. We're slowly learning through the course of Spirits.
Amanda:
We're making a taxonomy.
Julia:
Speaking of the Chimera, in Greek mythology specifically the Chimera was a creature that could breathe fire and had a lion's head, a goat's body and a serpent's tail. How do we feel about that?
Amanda:
Fine.
Julia:
Okay.
Amanda:
Good about that. See, the tail is a tail. It's not the body, it's not the head.
Julia:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Later depictions in media including stuff like Dungeons and Dragons show it as a three headed beast with the heads of those three creatures as it was made up in classical mythology. So you have the lion head, the goat head and the snake head. Fun. Sometimes it's a dragon too.
Amanda:
We do have a huggable, squeeze them up, whatever they're called plushie of Cerberus on the couch in the Multitudio and every guest who walks in remarks on it and I'm like, did you know it was named Spot?
Julia:
It's very good. That's my favorite fact of all mythology. It remains my favorite fact of all mythology.
Amanda:
I actually remember in high school biology, one of our very favorite teachers from high school, Mrs. L teaching us all about chimerism in AP Bio.
Julia:
Yeah. And in science, a chimera is an organism that is composed of cells that are more than one distinct genotype. So in complex organisms, that basically means it has two sets of DNA. This is a bit of a tangent, but we love tangents on this show, it's fine. I don't get to talk about science that much and I'm actually very interested in science despite being bad at it.
Julia:
One of the most famous examples of a human chimera was a woman who made the news in 2002. Her name was Karen Keegan and she needed a kidney transplant. So they went through the whole genetic testing of her family members to see if anyone would be a match and it was discovered that genetically Keegan could not have been the mother of her sons, which you know, her relatives remember her being pregnant and giving birth to them.
Julia:
So it kind of makes things a little bit strange. But it turned out that Keegan was a Chimera. The DNA of her blood cells was distinctly different from the DNA in her other tissues of her body.
Amanda:
That was also definitely utilized on a bunch of crime shows that I watched. It has to be either Bones, CSI or NCIS, but I distinctly remember it being a plot point in one of them.
Julia:
I'm pretty sure it was CSI.
Amanda:
Me too.
Julia:
They also did this on House too, I'm 90% sure.
Amanda:
Yes. That one I know distinctly was House but I think CSI had one. I wonder if there are any other CSI gays out there because I definitely like spent an entire summer just watching CSI over and over again on blockbuster rentals.
Amanda:
I think it's because the brunette like women analyst was the head like very butch vibes and also I think John Grissom is definitely strong lesbian energy.
Julia:
I had a big crush on John Grissom. I remember being like a 12 year old watching the show and I was like, I probably shouldn't feel this way about this older man.
Amanda:
I know we didn't have the internet vocabulary of dad at the time, but it's definitely either one or the other. It's like a big crush or like Dad.
Julia:
Anyway, that tangent aside, we're going to get back to chimeras and grotesques. If you're wondering why architects and sculptors originally included grotesques in their design, the answer is actually religion.
Amanda:
Ooh.
Julia:
So according to Lester Burbank Bridaham in his book of Gargoyles, Chimeras and Grotesques in French Gothic Sculpture, sculptors were tasked by the Pope as they were creating the Gothic cathedrals of the 12th and 13th centuries to use architecture in order to educate the masses.
Julia:
So specifically they were told to be quote, a preacher in stone to present the stories of the Bible and the creatures mentioned in the text of the Bible since many of the parishioners were illiterate and could not read the Bible themselves.
Amanda:
Same ideas, stained glass windows. Which show as yo proceed either around the church or in the tryptic exactly the stories from the Bible.
Julia:
Amanda you just took the words literally out of my mouth.
Amanda:
Oh. No. Sorry.
Julia:
No it was perfect. I like it. But yeah, the stained glass windows and the grotesques were basically what epitomized Gothic architecture at the time.
Amanda:
That's so funny. I guess in the vernacular we think of Gothic as dramatic or scary or maybe that's a little bit imprecise; more like overwrought. And so to think about this theological mission as one of the defining features of Gothic architecture makes so much sense.
Amanda:
You need to give a lot of information and a lot of religious teaching is dramatic by definition cause you need to tell people about these grand ideas and about the consequences of their actions. But that's never in a million years. One of the first five words I would say when I think about Gothic architecture.
Julia:
Yeah, no, but here we are. Gothic architecture is absolutely beautiful and extremely detailed and by modern standards a little over the top, but in a way that they were using to educate their parishioners. A couple of the sources that I talked about were talking about how it was supposed to instill the fear of God in you. But personally I look at those and I see beauty, not fear.
Amanda:
Yeah, me too. And it's like I said, a lot of information that you have to get across. So now this might strike us as sort of evocative of brutalism or other architectural trends that followed. It kind of stands out against nature instead of trying to fade in with it like some of the modernism and other designs that happened in the 70s.
Amanda:
So I just think that's kind of a modern way to view the thing at the time. I bet I was just like, wow, this is a place I want to learn more about and that's kind of the idea that they were trying to get across when making buildings that style.
Julia:
Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that.
Julia:
Moving on, we've been talking a lot about the grotesques and the chimera, but how do they differ from the gargoyle? Amanda, do you have a guess?
Amanda:
I feel like gargoyles are definitely a protective of some kind or watching over or watching out. So I wonder if there is kind of an on the side of righteousness versus on the side of temptation situation.
Julia:
Okay, interesting. You're kind of on the money there in the protective way, but not the way you would think. So gargoyles are grotesques as we talked about, but they specifically serve a purpose where grotesque are just for decoration. A gargoyle is basically an extremely fancy gutter spout.
Amanda:
Yay.
Julia:
They're designed to gather water from the roof of the building and keep it away from the walls and therefore keep them from eroding.
Amanda:
So they definitely are protective, but it's more like against mother nature.
Julia:
Yes. It's less about like, ah, well the gargoyle shall protect us from evil and more it's like, well, if we didn't have this gargoyle, our church would collapse.
Amanda:
What a delightful inversion of my expectations.
Julia:
Listen, that's what I'm here for. If we are doing a live show right now, someone would've gone, ha. So having multiple gargoyles on a building allowed architects to direct the flow of rainwater, which like I said before, it could severely damage the building if allowed to gather and sit.
Julia:
If you look at many examples of gargoyles on Gothic buildings, you can see that their backs are either hollow or have troughs cut into them in order to gather more of the water. In fact, this is where the gargoyle gets its name from. It comes from the French word meaning throat, which is a reference to the gurgling sound the water makes as it passes through the gargoyle and out of its mouth.
Amanda:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Infrastructure.
Julia:
I knew you're going to really like this one Amanda I could tell from all of my research. So I will say that the gargoyle did exist before the Gothic movement, just in simpler forms. They could be found in agent Egyptian architecture, usually as a lions head, Greek temples featured similarly designed gargoyles to ancient Egypt's typically either made out of marble or terracotta.
Julia:
There were actually 102 gargoyle slash lion-headed water spouts in the temple of Zeus. However, because they were carved of marble, many of them were destroyed when they fell from the deteriorating walls and only 39 currently remain.
Amanda:
Wow.
Julia:
Yeah. Interesting, right?
Amanda:
I just love this idea of the gargoyle as a category and not a specific mythological creature. I always just assumed it was like the ones in the Hunchback of Notre Dame and it was like a creature and they were I don't know demons that were redeemed and trapped in stone and stuff like that.
Julia:
Well Amanda, I would love to tell you how we got from the gothic architecture version of the gargoyle to that kind of scary living gargoyle, but I'll tell you about it after we get a refill.
Amanda:
Let's do it.
Julia:
Amanda, I have been dying to wear some new outfits lately. I feel like working from home, all I've been wearing is long sleeve shirts and tights and luckily I can imagine and dream about my future outfits with the help of Stitch Fix.
Julia:
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Julia:
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Julia:
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Julia:
When I got my last Stitch Fix box, I got this pair of camo leggings that I have been absolutely rocking here at home. Every single chance I can wear them you know I'm in them, they're so comfortable and they're super stylish.
Julia:
So to get started today, you go to stitchfix.com/spirits and you'll get 25% off when you keep everything in your Fix. So at stitchfix.com/spirits for 25% off when you keep everything in your Fix. Stitchfix.com/spirits.
Amanda:
We are also sponsored this week by Skillshare. Now this is an online learning community offering our listeners actually two free months of Skillshare Premium. This will help you explore new skills, deepen existing passions, and get lost in creativity no matter where you are with classes from Skillshare.
Amanda:
There are a ton of fascinating classes on everything from business type stuff to creativity like illustration, design, photography, video freelancing. The one that I enjoyed this week, Julia, I gasped when I saw the title of this class. It's called Making Your First Zine From Idea to illustration by Kate Bingaman-Burt and I mean it's sort of my childhood dream to be a magazine publisher and the closest I can get is making a zine.
Amanda:
It's so exciting to have this project to think about and something just small and interesting to do and make progress on that's just for me and just for my creativity.
Amanda:
So you can take this class and many more on Skillshare. Go to skillshare.com/spirits2 where you can get two free months of premium membership that unlocks all of their classes and gives you unlimited access to everything they have to offer. Two months free at skillshare.com/spirits2.
Amanda:
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Amanda:
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Amanda:
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Julia:
Yeah, I'm literally wearing a ThirdLove bra right now and I got to say super comfy. So ThirdLove knows that there is a perfect bra for everyone. So right now they are offering our listeners 15% off your first order. Go to thirdlove.com/spirits to find your perfect fitting bra and get 15% off your first purchase. That's thirdlove.com/spirits for 15% off today.
Amanda:
And now let's get back to the show.
Julia:
All right, Amanda, we are back from the refill and today we've made a cocktail that I found in a cocktail book called Savory Cocktails by Greg Henry.
Amanda:
Yum. Very Julia.
Julia:
You know I love a savory cocktail. This one specifically was actually named the Green Gargoyle. It's a mix of tequila, cucumber, jalapeno, and cilantro which I think gives it a really nice balance of bitter, sweet and spicy. So let's take a very nice sip of this cocktail and then I will tell you the legend of the Gargouille and it is also the story of Saint Romain.
Amanda:
Okay, I'm ready. I'm prepared.
Julia:
Okay.
Amanda:
I'm only sweating a little bit.
Julia:
Listen, the spiciness will do it to you. So Saint Romain, also known as Saint Romaneus of Rouen is a hero from the 7th century who was also the Bishop of Rouen. Before he became a bishop he supposedly was known for destroying various quote unquote pagan temples. Not great. We'll talk about that another time. But anyone who's listened to the show before knows we're not a fan of destroying quote unquote pagan things.
Amanda:
Well, it's not pagan. It's fine.
Julia:
Yep. In one such story, he came across a temple in the countryside of France and saw that there were demons dancing in it. So he cursed the demons and provoked the chief demon. And in their fury, the temple collapsed around them. But his most famous story is when he met a dragon face to face.
Amanda:
Ooh.
Julia:
Ooh, okay. So let's get ready. Let's get into storytelling mode. The town in which Saint Romain was the bishop been plagued for many years by a dragon that they called wait for it, La Gargouille. The dragon was a ruthless one. It did not discriminate in its victims, and it was said that it killed more than it could possibly eat seemingly for the pleasure of it.
Amanda:
Hmm.
Julia:
He would damage the crops of the town simply by flapping his giant wings. And when he leaned against trees, they toppled over like they were twigs. He would lay across the river, damning it so that the city would flood. On one instance, he rubbed himself against the church... I'm kind of picturing it similarly to a bear when it's got an itch on its back, you know what I mean?
Amanda:
Oh yeah, definitely.
Julia:
And in doing so, he caused the spire and tower to come crumbling down. When the workman attempted-
Amanda:
No, dragon is just big. Dragon has to live. Dragon has to eat.
Julia:
Mm. Does dragon have to do that though? Dragon has to eat, but also is killing more than he eats.
Amanda:
No, I know. That part is what gives me pause. But I'm just picturing I don't know, as a person who is larger than average, I'm just picturing I don't know, you just want to walk around and eat and sometimes you knock things over. Oh no.
Julia:
Yeah. But I also think of it like when deer become a problem in a community and they're like, well there's too many deers. So we have to humanely kill a couple. These things happen. That's basically what I picture this as.
Amanda:
Fair, fair.
Julia:
So when workman attempted to rebuild said spire and tower of the church, they were harassed by the dragon so much that to this day, the tower of the church has no carvings or decorations on it because the workmen simply were not able to spend the time doing so.
Amanda:
That sounds like a very good fact to end a walking tour on and everybody's like, ooh and then raises their cameras take a picture.
Julia:
Because the dragon interesting. But that's why this building looks like shit. So of course this is when Saint Romain steps in. He alongside a condemned criminal who was promised his freedom if he survived the encounter set off to face against La Gargouille which everyone else was like, I think you got it Saint Romain, I think you're good. And he's like, so no one is going to volunteer here at the condemned criminal was like, you know what, I think I got this. I think I can help out.
Julia:
So the stories kind of make it seem as though St Romain dealt with the dragon pretty easily mostly because he had God on his side. So he first made the sign of the cross over the monster, which placated it. Then he tied his stole around its neck, a stole being that strip of fabric priests were over their shoulders that hangs down to about their knees. You know what I'm talking about?
Amanda:
Ah. Yes.
Julia:
And then he just let it like a dog on a walk back to the village.
Amanda:
Ah, adorable.
Julia:
Yes. Kind of cute. Until they got back to the village and he's like, well I'm going to burden this dragon now. And then they burned the dragon to death.
Amanda:
Oh.
Julia:
Yeah, wasn't great.
Amanda:
I'm on the dragon's side here.
Julia:
So they got rid of the whole body of the dragon was a bit of a pain because it's a huge dragon, but the head and neck did not burn because this was a fire breathing dragon and by that logic the head and neck are already fireproof.
Amanda:
Good point.
Julia:
Mm.
Amanda:
There it is. So rather than waste a perfectly good dragon's head, they mounted it on the walls of that newly built church where the workers were finally able to finish it ow that they weren't being harassed by a dragon. The hope was-
Julia:
I see what's happening here.
Amanda:
The hope was that the terrifying creature would help ward off evil spirits and act as a protector for the church. Interestingly enough as well, kind of a sidebar or an epilogue of sorts. In order to honor the story of Saint Romain the archbishops of Rouen were allowed to set a prisoner free on the Saint's feast day every year.
Julia:
Or what if you just set almost all of them free and abolished incarceration?
Amanda:
I agree with that. I think this is a nice stepping stone towards that.
Julia:
Yes. That's the exploding brain meme end of this progression.
Amanda:
Yes. So I think it's kind of cute that this story ends with the two little fun facts about the future of the story, which is one we set a prisoner free on Saint Romain's feast day and too, that's why there's horrifying creatures carved into the walls of churches and where it gets its name from, La Gargoiulle.
Julia:
That is extremely gothic to have like a taxidermy only turned into stone heads of creatures that have plagued you and you have killed as your water spouts.
Amanda:
Yeah, I love it. So it's this history of gargoyles as protectors of buildings and churches where we get the idea of these statues coming to life though it wasn't uniquely French either. So the Scots also saw these types of carvings as protectors who would ward off evil spirits and evil men away. It wasn't until later though specifically in the 1930s that gargoyles were seen as an evil supernatural construct. Mostly because of a short pulp fiction story by Clark Ashton Smith called Maker of Gargoyles that came out in 1932. And here's the plot according to Smith. Get ready, buckle in.
Julia:
I'm ready.
Amanda:
Two gargoyles rocked by the same carver on the new built cathedral of year, one of which was expressive of malignant hate and the other of unclean lust.
Julia:
Oh.
Amanda:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). These gargoyles come to life at night and terrorize the town, appearing in different places as if they were looking for someone. At last they find the house of the carver who is recently married to a girl from Voignier.
Amanda:
The next day the carver is found dead with a torn throat and his wife raving mad with her clothing and shreds. In the teeth of the malignant gargoyle in its usual position in the cathedral cornice, is human blood and there are fragments of the woman's dress in the claws of the other.
Julia:
Okay. That's a very good urban legend.
Amanda:
That's very good, right? Short story, very good. 1932, so a little dark postwar kind of thing right before we go into the World War II. Not great. I think it's a really interesting story.
Julia:
Me too. I think that if we just don't slut shame gargoyles we would avoid situations like this.
Amanda:
I think the implication is that the gargoyle you know, sexually abused the woman before.
Julia:
No, no, no. I know, I mean they characterized the gargoyle as having unclean lust. So maybe in this case this gargoyle made some bad choices, but it seems to me that a more permissive attitude of gargoyles you can do your thing as long as you don't harm anybody, maybe that would've helped.
Amanda:
I do like the wording though, unclean lust versus clean lust, I guess. Unclean lust is-
Julia:
Yes, I definitely see what you mean. And the sort of 30s morality might not be as restrictive as I am thinking here. And maybe it's just that this gargoyle was a dick.
Amanda:
Yeah, I think the gargoyle was a dick. I think we can go ahead and assume evil gargoyle, kind of an asshole.
Julia:
So in the same year, Amanda, in the story of the Horn of Vapula, gargoyles acted as demonic vessels where a demon is bound into a horned gargoyle. And the idea of gargoyles acting as vessels for some sort of soul continued in pop culture.
Julia:
So Marvel comics has a character named Gargoyle who is able to shift between human and gargoyle form. And in the movie Ghostbusters, there are these horned gargoyles that possess Sigourney Weaver and Rick Moranis. You've seen Ghostbusters, Amanda, right?
Amanda:
Oh, I sure have.
Julia:
Okay, good. Just making sure you remember that.
Amanda:
I remember Sigourney's outfits and not a lot about the plot.
Julia:
Honestly. Fair. Fair and valid. She's great. So hot. Anyway, there are several adaptations of gargoyles that depict them. Similarly though, obviously without the religious and cultural implications to gollums in that they are often animated through magical or supernatural means having been inanimate and then stone before.
Amanda:
I definitely see it.
Julia:
Rather than being born gargoyle. So regardless of whether or not they're protecting churches, wreaking havoc on towns or keeping rainwater off of buildings, gargoyles have captured the imagination of pop culture and the world. And more of a reason to take care of gargoyles because a lot of them are often slender or very intricately carved so they require a lot of upkeep and restoration.
Julia:
In fact, back in 2012 the Duomo in Milan, Italy created an adopt-a-gargoyle program so that you could help donate to keep the upkeep and protection of these architectural wonders.
Julia:
So, I think it's very sweet and I think that we should respect the stories that come out of architecture but also respect the architecture itself and keep them preserved.
Amanda:
I love that so much and I especially love their really utilitarian origins. I am such a fan, I've talked about this before, but using the nice thing and I think my example before was I have super nice olive oil and I more likely to let it expire because I want to save it for a special occasion than I am to just use it.
Amanda:
But I am a fan of just elevating the everyday and I find a lot of meaning and beauty in using things that make me really happy in the day to day. Whether that's like organizing my medicine cabinet in a really pretty way or using old jewelry boxes to keep my socks compartmentalized in my sock drawer or even just using like the nice silverware that I got at a garage sale to serve mashed potatoes or meatballs or whatever it is instead of opting for the cheap one that is easier to clean.
Amanda:
Because there's something about having that ceremony, that beauty, that little moment of the little thrill of just like, ooh man, this thing is so beautiful that I really want to build more into my days and my routines.
Julia:
Yeah, and I kind of love the idea of it being this sort of architectural wonder that has lasted centuries. You can literally look at the Neo-Gothic movement in New York City and see so much of New York City's landscape is built around these grotesques and these gargoyles. When I think of New York City, I think of those kind of towering over gargoyle things that like Batman perches on and stuff like that.
Amanda:
Oh definitely. And it's very Gotham in the implications there.
Julia:
Yeah. And so much to the point where again this is very much like a me specific thing, but the XFL, which is the football league that was started by WWE's own Vince McMahon, the New York team is called The Guardians and they are specifically a gargoyle mascot. It's very cool.
Amanda:
That is incredibly exciting.
Julia:
Thank you. I'm glad someone can share in my excitement about that because I don't really give a shit about the XFL, but I do love that our team is a gargoyle team. That is very cool.
Amanda:
That is very cool. And what a sort of uniting factor across a lot of time and distance and culture. In fact these were in the temple of Zeus and also in Notre Dame and also in lots of buildings in the US. It's just... it's very, very cool.
Julia:
Yeah. And it's also accessible in a lot of ways. While I was doing my research, I was looking up a bunch of different examples of gargoyles and stuff like that. And of course there are the Notre Dame ones, those beautifully intricate carved versions and there's also the metal ones of New York city that are just as ridiculously gaudy and beautiful.
Julia:
But I also saw a couple of different ones where it was it's just a little metal dragon head that's coming off of a tavern in Britain somewhere. Gargoyles are accessible in that way, they can mean the height of Catholic luxury but it also can be something as simple as we just wanted to decorate a little and give a little flavor to the architecture that we have here and give a little bit of a mythological residence to it.
Amanda:
I would love to see examples of gargoyles from folks towns. And if you are taking your daily walk and a little dose of sunshine and you spot a gargoyle, I would absolutely love if you would tag us in that picture because just seeing the different interpretations, different mediums, different contexts of these things all around the world.
Amanda:
This is the thing that I love the most about studying mythology and folklore is similar ideas or instincts or completely different motivations that end up coming from the same physical source or practice. And it's just, it's the coolest.
Julia:
I love that. I also think that next time you go outside your house and you look at your gutters, it's just a not so dolled up gargoyle right there.
Amanda:
It's sure is. Gutters are amazing and read about gutters. They're so cool and smart.
Julia:
Gutters are very cool.
Amanda:
Cleaning the gutters was my favorite household task growing up-
Julia:
You're a weirdo.
Amanda:
Because I got to use a ladder, but B, because this is so useful. They are sewer pipes that we can see.
Julia:
So you might be listener, a gutter that Amanda loves and appreciates, but also remember you have the same use and utility as a extremely ornate gargoyle. I don't know if this metaphor is working, but I hope that resonates with someone.
Julia:
I hope so too. And in doing your part, you can also bring an extremely Gothic, mythological flair to your daily activities.
Amanda:
Hell yeah. Be the Gothic architecture you wish to see in the world.
Julia:
Fuck yes. And remember, listeners.
Amanda:
Stay creepy.
Julia:
Stay cool.