Episode 292: Dionysus
/It’s a party, and Dionysus has invited you! As we wrap up “It’s All Greek to Me” with the party god, we look at his unique place on Olympus, the tragic origins of wine, and bucking societal expectations.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of mental illness, death, immolation, body image issues, cancer, gaslighting, premature birth, gore, animal attacks, suicide, murder, misogyny, animal death, and genitalia.
Housekeeping
- Live Show: Join us on July 15th in-person in NYC OR stream the show live!
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends An Unseen Attraction by K.J. Charles!
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Have you heard about the MultiCrew?! This is our membership program that lets you help us invest in Multitude as we try weird new stuff. And now you can connect with other MultiCrew members with our brand new Penpal Exchange! Join for as little as $5 a month at multicrew.club and join our Penpal Exchange!
Sponsors
- Calm is the #1 app to help you reduce your anxiety and stress and help you sleep better. Get 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at calm.com/spirits.
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Transcript
JULIA: Hey, Julia here, a quick announcement before we get started Spirit is doing a live show in New York City on July 15 will be in person at Caveat and live-streamed online so you can see us either in person or on your computer. Tickets are available now at spiritspodcast.com/live or you can click the link in the description. We hope to see you there and now let's get to the episode.
AMANDA: Welcome Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And this is Episode 292: It's All Greek To Me, baby, covering the great Greek boozy god of Dionysus.
JULIA: Yeah, Amanda, this is it this is our last of It's All Greek To Me: Finally Fulfilling the Promise of Spirits Podcast by Spirits Podcast.
AMANDA: How did it happen?
JULIA: I don't know. We did all the episodes, that's what happened.
AMANDA: Time goes on despite our best efforts.
JULIA: It does. And when I was deciding and like kind of scheduling out these episodes, I decided I wanted to go out with a bang and so for this final episode, we are covering the Party God himself, Dionysus.
AMANDA: Yay, this may Julia, be the God I know the most about.
JULIA: Tell me what you know.
AMANDA: So Dionysus is a goat-related god, right? Is he a satyr? A satyr?
JULIA: He's associated with satyrs.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: They're often in his retinue but he himself you're thinking of Pan. maybe?
AMANDA:
Oh, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. But all about the libations all about the party all about the good times all about just letting it roll a star of the play that the bad guy which I saw in London once and was really fucked up and made an impression on me.
JULIA: Well, don't worry, Amanda, we're going to talk about that.
AMANDA: Yay.
JULIA: So as you pointed out, Dionysus has quite a few domains. He is the god of wine of revelry of pleasure and of theater. As theater kids, we love Dionysus, and that was even before we could drink.
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: It was said that wherever he went satyrs, like you mentioned his followers who are the Maenad, which literally translates to the raving ones, and of course, good times, they would all follow.
AMANDA: I mean, pretty good, pretty kind of the first guy do you want to invite to your party if you're prepared for things to get a little bit wild.
JULIA: Exactly. But as you mentioned, as the god of wine, he isn't always just about a good time and there are more than a few stories where he's a bit of a chaotic and messy god, but he also wouldn't be an Olympian if he wasn't kind of a mess in my opinion. I feel like there's one god on Mount Olympus that is not a mess and that is our sweet sweet girl, Hestia.
AMANDA: True, she's like, come on guys. I just cleaned.
JULIA: Exactly. So kind of to get us started, we recently talked about in the Hestia episode about how Hestia is often this like forgotten member of the Olympians, and sometimes her throne on Olympus is given to Dionysus instead. Notably, Homer does not list Dionysus among the Olympians even though later scholars do and this is probably because he, much like a lot of the other gods entered the Greek pantheon as a foreign deity who is later assimilated into the Greek canon.
AMANDA: That makes sense.
JULIA: It just so happens that he was probably incorporated later compared to some of the other gods and goddesses. And while scholars aren't really sure exactly what his origins are, many of them cite his foreign origins to the fact that Dionysus like in his mythological tales, spends most of his like young adulthood and early stories wandering the world, only to arrive back in Greece to be worshipped.
AMANDA: Right on. Not a bad homecoming when you think about it.
JULIA: Exactly. Well, we'll talk about that homecoming a little bit. I like when scholars disagree about things. So there is a scholar named Cornelia Isler-Kerényi who believes that worshipped by the ancient Mycenaeans of a wine god were actually some of the earliest aristocratic worships of the god that either was or would become Dionysus. So these ones predate even some of the other like canonical Greek gods that we are talking about in the It's All Greek To Me series.
AMANDA: I mean, as always, you think about what's fundamental to humanity, it's home, it's agriculture, it's love, and it's pleasure.
JULIA: Exactly. And god if you have money, of course, you want all those things.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: So this dichotomy is also really interesting because it is also reflected in the way that the Ancient Greeks portrayed Dionysus in their art and depiction so sometimes he was this androgynous youth, sometimes he was portrayed as this older bearded man so it all kind of comes back down to, "Hey, where this guy come from again? We're not sure"
AMANDA: Yeah, I guess when I think about it, I picture Dionysus as very youthful and also kind of like live maybe androgynous not necessarily a kind of like patriarchal figure or you know, head of a family-type thing, not older and wiser. I kind of picture like live fast die young type.
JULIA: That's actually really interesting. The ladder I think comes From the Roman tradition of Bacchus, who I think is a little bit more like a drunk wine uncle, in a way.
AMANDA: Very much.
JULIA: He's a portly, happy older man, which I think is a more encouraged image in Roman imagery than it is in Greek imagery. And I think the Greeks preferred the kind of like androgynous young Dionysus, which is why you probably picture it when you think of him.
AMANDA: Yeah, Greeks also had some body image issues that I'm sure it's scholarship has covered.
JULIA: I'm sure they have, I'm sure they have. That is the origins of the kind of like worship of Dionysus among the Ancient Greeks, but the story of his birth is a different story entirely. Badum-tss.
AMANDA: Let's hear it.
JULIA: Of course, there's a bunch of different versions, because naturally is this Greek Mythology, and we can't agree on anything. The one that is probably most oftenly told is Dionysus being the son of Semele who was the princess of Thebes and the daughter of Cadmus, who was the king of Thebes. We talked about Cadmus, if you'll remember he got turned into a dragon. Naturally, Semele is the perfect daughter in that way. She is the daughter of Harmonia as well, and we know Harmonia is great. And so while she was performing a sacrifice of a bow on the altar of Zeus, Zeus took one look at her and fell in love.
AMANDA: As happens with Zeus.
JULIA: As happens. So Zeus came to her disguised as a human, and they began a consensual romantic affair. Good for Zeus on that one.
AMANDA: Shocking.
JULIA: It did not, however, take long for her to find out about it and jealous of Semele, Hera to disguise herself as a mortal and kind of ingratiated herself into Semele's court. So becoming her friend, Semele revealed to Hera that she was pregnant with Zeus' child. And so Hera in an act of revenge planted the seed of doubt in Semele's head. She basically like told her that despite Zeus his claims of being a god, she's like, uhh, I don't really know if he's a god, what if he's just some guy who's telling you that he's a god?
AMANDA: Oh my god, this is- this is like high drama.
JULIA: Listen, the Greeks love drama. The Greeks basically invented drama in a lot of ways.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But like, this is like some soap opera stuff and I love it.
AMANDA: This is like, beat for beat could see on the old or new seasons of Gossip Girl. And that's how I know that like, humanity has some Greatest Hits that we just tried out again and again.
JULIA: Yeah, so Hera's is basically like, hey, this might just be like a guy and he's telling you that he's a god. And then the minute you have his child, he's just going to disappear and leave you in the wind.
AMANDA: Yeah, like, hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just me, but like, I'm looking out for you girl. Like, oh my god, it's so conniving.
JULIA: It feels very much like this is gonna be a throwback. Do you remember The Real Housewives of Orange County?
AMANDA: Of course, I do.
JULIA: The one housewife was like dating that guy who like claimed he had cancer but didn't actually have cancer. And everyone's telling her like, girl, it does not seem like what he's saying is real. And she's like, no, no, it's all true. He's suffering. And he-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: –he didn't have cancer
AMANDA: Or 2022 Edition: The Tinder Swindler. Like it just it happens again and again.
JULIA: This is what it is. But Hera's lying.
AMANDA: I know also talk about like, heresy, badum-tss against, you know, the god of all gods like that is a bold claim.
JULIA: I love that. Well, so basically, she's like, you know, how you could tell what you could do is ask him to swear on the river Styx that he'll do whatever you ask. And then you ask him to show himself in like his godly glory.
AMANDA: Okay. I mean-
JULIA: And Semele's like, that's a great idea.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And so Semele does that, Zeus is madly in love with her. So he's like, yes, of course, I will swear whatever you want on the River Styx. And that is like a not like legally binding, but it is like a soul-binding contract when you swim around the River Styx. Much like Hera planted the seed in Semele's mind, she asks, I want to see you in all of your glory and majesty.
AMANDA: Zeus, disrobes. She's like, "No, no, not like that."
JULIA: "Not like that. We already saw that." So Zeus having sworn this oath, he tries in vain to get her to change her request, but he fails and he must comply. And so he appears to her in his form of thunder and lightning and fire, which both terrifies and overpower Semele, and she is caught in the like, literal blaze of his glory gives a premature birth to her child.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: And then is burned away herself.
AMANDA: Oh, shit. Wow.
JULIA: So it's a rough time for poor assembly. She was tricked.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: She really did have the thing that she thought she had, which is great. Either way, in some stories, it's Zeus and other stories. It's Hermes. Basically, they save the child from the flames, Zeus cuts open his thigh inserts the child, and then sews it back up until Dionysus, who is the child reaches his maturity. Hence, one of Dionysus is epithets is Dimêtôr or twice-born.
AMANDA: Right on.
JULIA: Isn't that cool?
AMANDA: That is very cool and reminds me of I'm sure Shakespeare's source material for Macbeth.
JULIA: Oh, yeah, exactly. "Not of woman born."
AMANDA: Julia, the number of times that somebody mentions C sections and I say, oh, not of woman, huh? And they're like what? It happens a fair amount.
JULIA: There you go. So there are a couple of other stories about Dionysus' birth, though not as involved as the story here. In some tales Dionysus', his mother is either Demeter or Io or Persephone, who in that version of the story gives birth to Dionysus while in the form of a serpent, which I think is kind of neat.
AMANDA: Sick.
JULIA: This makes Dionysus the only one of the Olympians who is not born of two deities, which is something that we will talk a little bit about later like he has a literal mortal mother.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: And in any other case, that would make him a demigod, but in this case, he's a full-fledged Olympian
AMANDA: Tell me why.
JULIA: After Dionysus was born, rather than raise the child himself. Zeus gave baby Dionysus to the nymphs of Nusiai to raise him who are apparently very beautiful, but also no one had, like ever seen them. So that's just kind of hearsay. They're like, they were so beautiful, no man had ever seen them. And we're like, how do we know that? When eventually he was old enough, he left the mountain to travel the world like we mentioned before. And during his travels, one of the first stories that we learn about is when he meets a young satyr, whose name is Ampelos. And Dionysus falls in love with Ampelos. One day, Dionysus has a vision of Ampelos dying on the horns of a bull. And so he's like, listen, babe, you got to stay away from bulls.
AMANDA: Okay, alright.
JULIA: Please, just stay away from bulls, which obviously makes sense. If you have a vision of someone dying a certain way, maybe avoid that thing.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: However, Ampelos does not listen, goes out riding a bull.
AMANDA: No, that's the one thing!
JULIA: And as he's doing so he taunts Selene who is the goddess of the moon. And here's a little excerpt of what he says when he's mocking her. For context, Selene is associated with like, usually cows and horns and whatnot as well as the moon. So he goes, "He shouted boldly to the full-faced Moon (Mene), 'Give me best, Selene, horned driver of cattle! Now I am both--I have horns and I ride a bull!'"
AMANDA: That's amazing.
JULIA: I know. Isn't that like such a sassy but silly like being like, "Oh, look at me, I'm riding a bull."
AMANDA: Exactly.
JULIA: Don't taunt any gods or goddesses is the main plot of this entire series.
AMANDA: Don't make eye contact with Zeus and don't taunt anyone or say you're prettier than them.
JULIA: Yep, so Selene sends a gadfly to bother another bull, which then gores Ampelos, which completes the vision that Dionysus had seen. Dionysus finds the body of impellers and weeps over it and in his grief transforms the body into the great vine.
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: Yes. So Dionysus realizes that he can transform grapes into wine, which is red like his lovers blood, and as such in memory of Ampelos, Dionysus shares the discovery of wine with mankind which solidifies it as part of his domain.
AMANDA: I mean, that's kind of beautiful, but also really tragic and makes me think of Dionysus as like a grieving you know, wine drunk, which is sad.
JULIA: Well, yeah, you know, there's something about wine that sometimes makes us feel nice and also sometimes makes us feel really sad.
AMANDA: That's true.
JULIA: Wine sad is just like a particular flavor of sad too. Where it's like, I feel like I'm a little bit more weepy when I'm wine sad.
AMANDA: I know I really channel Olivia Pope. And I'm just kind of sitting there and reading my poetry and sitting in my field.
JULIA: As I said, Dionysus discovers wine wants to share it with mankind. And one of the first people that Dionysus shares the knowledge of winemaking with is a Athenian shepherd name Icarius. Also, as a quick aside, just for our listeners' sake this story does feature suicide. So if you want to skip over this one, I'd say like about five minutes or so. Icarius was one night visited by Dionysus, who was disguised as a mortal. Icarius is super incredibly hospitable to his unexpected guest. And as a reward, Dionysus teaches him how to tend grape vines and make one.
AMANDA: Pretty good reward for one night of hospitality.
JULIA: Exactly. So eventually, Icarius makes his first batch of wine, which is very exciting, and shares his yield with his neighbors trying to spread the word about wine. Like look how cool this is. We're all going to have a great time.
AMANDA: You know, that's an evangelism I can get behind, Julia.
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Somebody being like, hey, if you're into it this stuff's great. That's great.
JULIA: Exactly. So after a night of drinking all the neighbors are having a grand old time but as the night goes on, Icarius is surrounded and then killed by his neighbors who never having been drunk before believed that Icarius had poisoned them.
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: Also probably because they weren't watering down the wine like they should have been.
AMANDA: Yeah, also, I wish that instead they were like, hey, does everyone want to have sex? Like I want to kiss you. Is that cool with you? Like that's the other version.
JULIA: That was probably like the right before everyone gets-
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: -absolutely plastered and throwing up everywhere. Yeah.
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: Icarius' dog Maera sees the murderer and encourages Icarius' daughter Erigone to search for her father's body when she discovers what has been done to Icarius, Erigone dies by suicide praying to the gods that her father's killers would not go free. This inspires the murderers to be brought to justice and both Maera and Erigone yeah are placed in the stars by Dionysus or in some stories Zeus on Dionysus his behalf as the constellations Procyon and Virgo.
AMANDA: I mean, a beautiful tribute, but I wish it didn't have to happen.
JULIA: Yeah, yeah, very sad. But also one kind of highlights the like both sides of the coin when it comes to Dionysus and wine, and we'll talk a lot about that later, but also is kind of a fitting tribute. And another story about hey, how did we get those constellations again? It was a dog and a lady.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: Ampelos was not the only person that Dionysus fell in love with during his travels. Another was Ariadne, who is the daughter of King Minos, who famously helped the hero Theseus kill the Minotaur after she fell in love with Theseus. However, when Theseus took her away, he stopped on the island of Naxos and Theseus left her there kind of just abandoned her. There's a various different reasons why he left her there. Sometimes there's a storm and he gets like swept away sometimes it's a bunch of other things. But the particular story that I'm thinking of is he's afraid of the optics of bringing the Cretan princess to Athens after King Minos demanded all of these human sacrifices.
AMANDA: You know, that's a real 'should have thought of that before you invited someone on your ship situation.'
JULIA: Yeah, yeah. You should have thought about that when she saved your life. My guy really wouldn't have been able to do all that you'd be dead if it wasn't for her.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But sure, the optics. In her despair, Dionysus finds Ariadne and falls in love with her. There are various stories that kind of go from there, most of them and with Ariadne dying a mortal death because she is a mortal.
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: And Dionysus descends into the Underworld and brings her back to Olympus where she is granted immortality and becomes a goddess one who historically is worshipped alongside Aphrodite in Cyprus.
AMANDA: Not bad company in the end.
JULIA: Yeah, not too bad. Ariadne, however, Amanda is not the first person that Dionysus retrieved from the Underworld.
AMANDA: Say what?
JULIA: Yes, but we will get to that story once we get back from our refill.
AMANDA: Okay, let's do it.
[midroll]
AMANDA: Julia, we made it. Welcome to the refill.
JULIA: Hey, Amanda. I see a snack over there. What do we got this time?
AMANDA: Yes, we have some absolutely fabulous watermelon, basil, feta salad. Vegan Fetta
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: It's actually good.
JULIA: Wow, that's impressive. Again, you're killing it with the vegan cheeses lately and I appreciate that.
AMANDA: Thank you, thank you. I'm trying.
JULIA: Also, there's nothing more summery than a watermelon feta basil salad.
AMANDA: There really isn't and I made sure to set aside some in the fridge so it'd be cold for when our newest patrons, Toothy Monster and Kristin arrived.
JULIA: That's so nice, Amanda. Oh my goodness. I also personally really like a little bit of arugula in with my watermelon salad.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But that's just a personal preference. But I bet people like our supporting producer-level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Daisy, Froody Chick, Hannah, Jack Marie, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Kneazlekins, Lily, Little Vomit Spiders Running Around, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, Scott, and Zazi and that they all like it with arugula too, so I made it right.
AMANDA: Oh, yeah. And if they don't, I absolutely have more in the fridge with modifications galore for those legend-level patrons, Arianna, Audra, Bex, Clara, Iron Havoc, Morgan, Mother of Vikings, Sarah, & Bea Me Up Scotty.
JULIA: And if you want to Join the Party with these incredible patrons who help us make this show a reality and get stuff like recipe cards, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic for your own parties, you can go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast.
AMANDA: It is absolutely worth it. We would love to see you there.
JULIA: Now Amanda, what have you been enjoying on these nice beautiful summer eves here in New York.
AMANDA: Julia over the last three days, I have absolutely inhaled a trilogy of books by one of my favorite queer historical romance authors KJ Charles. City Vice series and two of the three feature disabled protagonists, which is amazing, and all of them are queer love stories that also have a mystery running throughout all three novels. You know that I love a mystery. I love historical romance. I love queer romance of all types. KJ Charles is a fabulous author to start with someone actually asked in the Multitude Discord recently that they were looking for recommendations of romance books that involve mystery and this was one that I recommended so I totally love it and you can start with the first book in that series, An Unseen Attraction.
JULIA: I can't believe how many boxes that checks out for you.
AMANDA: I know it's just truly everything I've ever wanted.
JULIA: And you know, it checks out a lot of boxes for me, Amanda? People buying our tickets to our next live show!
AMANDA: Join us this Friday, people. Friday!
JULIA: Friday come right now it is going to be great. Buy your tickets. It's going to be awesome. You could either buy in-person tickets to see us live in New York City at Caveat. You can buy the live stream tickets because then you get to see our faces but don't have to come to New York or you can buy the VOD after the fact and watch us not live but our faces.
AMANDA: Absolutely. Even if it's the future, you got to go to spiritspodcast.com/live and pick up that VOD, baby.
JULIA: And Amanda, I think the summertime is the perfect time to get a pen pal. Do you know how people can perhaps get a pen pal? Maybe and also support Multitude and Multitude shows?
AMANDA: Yes, you should join the Multicrew. So you may be supporting Spirits and or other Multitude shows on Patreon. That's amazing. Thank you. If you want to also support Multitude as a whole, the work we are doing us coming up with new shows new things, and investing back in our community, you should join the Multicrew and one fabulous perk that people ask for and our fabulous Community Manager Ru has just added is a pen pal program where I think we have 40 or 50 people-
JULIA: Whoa!
AMANDA: -who have been paired with pen pals and you can exchange physical letters, digital letters, or even there's an option to be like hey, I want to have just like casual correspondence. It's not like a whole letter but it's just kind of like making a new friend. It is so wholesome is lovely and you gotta join.
JULIA: And you can join for as little as $5 a month at multicrew.club and get signed up for our pen pal exchange right now
AMANDA: That's multicrew.club.
JULIA: So you know how life just is sometimes like you look at your calendar when you wake up in the morning and your life is just full of to dues you got laundry, you got emails, you got errands, got cooking. And before you know it you have to do it all over again tomorrow and that is exhausting. So when is there are time to focus on what you need, both like mentally and calming. And I gave it away you can use Calm to prioritize your most important to do which is taking time for yourself every single day and we're partnering with Calm which is the number one wellness app to give you the tools you need to improve the way you feel you can reduce stress with our guided meditations you can improve focus with our curated music tracks. And of course, we love their imaginative sleep stories both for kids and adults. And they even have these new daily movement sessions which are designed to relax your body and uplift your mind. It also gets me moving in the morning which I really really love and for listeners of our show Calm is offering an exclusive 40% off a Calm Premium Subscription at calm.com/spirits go to C A L M.com/spirits for 40% off unlimited access to calm's entire library.
AMANDA: That's calm.com/spirits. And Julia one of the things that I treasure most in my day is getting into bed at the end of the day into my buttery soft my Brooklinens.
JULIA: Amanda, I just think about the buttery soft and I just want to go lay back in my bed again.
AMANDA: I know it's a truly can be a problem sometimes but it is hot outside and I like to keep my bed crispy cool. And normally it's challenging to be able to find a sheet where like I know that it is hot outside but I want my bed to be cold but I don't want to be too cold but I don't want to make it too cold that to burrow under a ton of blankets that wake up sweating. And truly there is nothing like a Brooklinen sheet to keep me feeling refreshed, keeping me cool while also keeping me warm. I don't know how they do it, but they do.
JULIA: Yeah. And not only that they have cool loungewear as well which include like T-shirts and tanks and shorts that will help you keep comfortable throughout the summer heat waves thanks to ultra-soft breathable jersey and cotton fabrics. ooh, Brooklyn and you know how to talk to me
AMANDA: They are absolutely fabulous. And again, whether you are sleeping hot over the summer and you need to refresh or you just want to treat yourself to a little bit of luxury and make your daily routine that much better with sheets or towels or robes or loungewear. Head over to Brooklinen today to keep your cool at home and on the go all summer long. Go to Brooklinen.com and use promo code Spirits to get $20 off your purchase of $100 or more plus free shipping.
JULIA: That's B R O O K L I N E N.com and enter the promo code Spirits for $20 off plus free shipping.
AMANDA: And finally, Julia, now a word from our sponsor, BetterHelp. I know both of us try to make time during each day to take care of ourselves take care of our minds. What's something that you've been trying recently?
JULIA: Oh, Amanda, I think for me, I have just been trying to make sure I take a break in the middle of the day. So for me it's sitting outside on my new hammock which I'm very excited about and just decompressing for about an hour before I get back to work.
AMANDA: That is really lovely. I definitely try to take time every day to like close my eyes and turn my face toward the sun like I'm a plant and imagining myself as a plant definitely helps me to do that. But something else I do on a weekly basis is talk to my therapist and I see her through better help because it is more affordable and more convenient and lets me make options and like do therapy in a way that actually benefits me in a way that's much much easier than doing traditional in-person therapy. BetterHelp is, of course, an online therapy app that has video phone and live chat therapy sessions. So sometimes if I'm on the road, I will do a live chat with my therapist, I'll do a phone call, or if I'm on my computer, I'll do a video call. You can be matched with a therapist and under 48 hours. And if you ever need to switch a therapist, if you're not getting long, if you're not vibing if you're just looking for something different, or their approach doesn't suit you, you can change therapists for free, which is not how it works in the real world and there is no fee there's no limit. You can go through several people until you find someone who is a match.
JULIA: And our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/spirits. That's better H E L P.com/spirits.
AMANDA: And now let's get back to the show.
JULIA: So, Amanda, there are a bunch of great wine cocktails that seem like they'd be good fits for Dionysus, but I decided why don't just go for the classic, right? Red sangria.
AMANDA: Oh, Julia, there's nothing I want more in the summertime or if a strawberry is like just about to turn and I don't really want it or a baked all the strawberries. I can bake. croutons and red wine, baby makes sangria.
JULIA: Exactly. The peaches also are a classic one for me, at least in my family, and basically like it's perfect for summertime. Like you said it highlights the wine as well as this idea that Dionysus is the god of like the fruit of the vine, which isn't necessarily just grapes, right? It's pretty much like great for making in big batches to share with your friends rest in peace Icarius, but we're different. I highly recommend it.
AMANDA: Love it.
JULIA: So now that I've left you on that little teaser from before the episode and we're back with our Sangria let's get to Dionysus' first trip into the Underworld, which was to rescue his mother.
AMANDA: Oh.
JULIA: So I'm going to tell you it the way that Edith Hamilton tells it because I think it's a really good summary of everything and all that he got up to up until the moment he's like, listen, I should go get my mother. So here's the quote from Edith, "The mother, whom he had never seen was not forgotten. He longed for her so greatly that at last he dared the terrible descent to the lower world to seek her. When he found her he defied the power of Death to keep her from him and death yielded. Dionysus brought her away but not to live on earth. He brought her up to Olympus where the gods consented to receive her as one of themselves, a mortal indeed but the mother of a god and therefore fit to dwell with immortals."
AMANDA: Man, Death yielded. Is there like a more powerful two-word sentence?
JULIA: Wow. Not in Greek Mythology because Death very rarely yields in Greek Mythology.
AMANDA: Totally.
JULIA: Edith obviously beautifully summarized, love that for you girl.
AMANDA: The best. Edith, I have a Nora Ephron-sized glass of wine waiting for you whenever you want to like ghostly come over.
JULIA: Yeah, come sip our ghost wine. So Semele, as you can imagine, was brought to Olympus and was made herself a goddess was renamed Thyone and her domain became the frenzy that her son inspired. So that kind of Bacchanalia which obviously we get the phrase from Bacchus, which is Dionysus' Roman counterpart. Speaking of which, actually, let's talk about the worship and the followers of Dionysus. So first things first, let's kind of talk about the duality of Dionysus. So he is a god but he is born both have a immortal and a mortal parent. But at the same time, he is born of an immortal parents. So he is born of both Semele and of Zeus again, getting that epithet which means twice-born. He is a divine Olympian who spends more time with mortals even more so than for example, Hermes, who we talked a lot about in his episode, he is depicted as both masculine and feminine associated with theater. He represents both tragedy and comedy. He is both the revelry of intoxication and the hangover that comes after. Speaking of that revelry, let's talk about the maenad who were the followers of Dionysus. In Roman worship, they were known as the Bacchae as you pointed out earlier in the episode after Dionysus' Roman equivalent, which is Bacchus. Dionysus had this kind of rather large retinue of female followers who were the maenads and they were easily recognizable in art. So they often wore a faun skin or panther cloak, because both of those were associated as animals that were worshipped with Dionysus. They were barefoot, which both signified their wildness both as women and the wildness of Dionysus. Their hair was left loose, and their garments were usually described as unkempt.
AMANDA: I mean, is there a cooler group of people in Greek Mythology? I think not.
JULIA: I mean, let's think about it, Amanda, how many drunk women have you seen walk through New York City without their shoes on just looking unkempt, their hair, not as nice is when they left the house.
AMANDA: That's true. I completely agree or like, you know, the winter coat over the party dress like that. That's kind of like the askew party dress. I love that image. But I also am thinking about if you're a Greek woman who doesn't want to pin your hair up and wear your toga and put on your, you know, uncomfortable sandals and be held to the standards of what people expect when they look at you, this sounds like a pretty fun way to live outside of those expectations.
JULIA: Amanda, you've done a thing where you a few lines into my outline, I basically say the same thing. Let's get there.
AMANDA: Great.
JULIA: So basically, they were often depicted as holding this either staffer wand made of fennel, which was topped with a pine cone which was-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -representative of Dionysus as a fertility god. I also want to note that when we're talking about the maenads, we're talking not only about like a mythological group of women but also historical worshipers of Dionysus. So there's a great quote from a great article that is called The Maenads: The Women of Bacchus by Danielle Mackay, which I recommend checking out it's pretty easy to find on the internet. But here's the quote, which is, "The ancient women of Bacchus are one of the most prolific groups in surviving religious imagery from antiquity. Artists and sculptors throughout the ages have made them their subjects. These wild women who engaged in uninhibited frenzy were considered a mystery even in the ancient world. For the ancients, the maenads represented the dangers of women left unchaperoned by male authority. Yet for many women, the worship of Bacchus allowed them to experience what life could be like as an unfettered maenad."
AMANDA: Totally, and there are probably were people for whom getting drunk was the only sort of conceivable cover that they could put in their minds or explanation for why a woman would act like that, versus somebody saying, like, no, I want to like laugh and fart and like, make dirty jokes and like run around and you know, dress as is comfortable. And I can totally understand why a chemical that alters your inhibitions is either how these women can access that or this sort of like, palatable or more palatable explanation for why on earth a woman would want to act that way.
JULIA: And I think that's a great point, because a lot of the stories that we tell about Dionysus and Bacchus and the people that followed him are all about these kinds of like, they were driven into a frenzy. They were like not themselves is basically what it is. And so that is very much like a patriarchal explanation for why women would not fall into the societal roles that are expected of them.
AMANDA: Yeah, and in Ancient Greece, and today, one of the reasons that we as a hetero patriarchal, white supremacist colonizer society, find it so important to legislate people's bodies, identities, rights, autonomy, is because we as society, like need that structure to prevent them from doing the thing we're so scared of, and without it, and the intoxicating freedom and affirmation of doing what you feel like being yourself among people who get it is something that is very dangerous to people in power.
JULIA: Yes, and I will 100% agree with you that the Greeks also saw it as a very dangerous thing. Here's the Edith Hamilton description of the maenads, which is "...women frenzied with wine. They rushed through woods and over mountains, uttering sharp cries waving pine cones, tip ones swept away in a fierce ecstasy. Nothing could stop them they would tear to pieces the wild creatures they met and devour the bloody shreds of flesh. They sang:
Oh, sweet upon the mountain
The dancing and the singing,
The maddening rushing flight.
Oh, sweet to sink to earth outworn
When the wild goat has been hunted and caught,
Oh, the joy of the blood and the raw red flesh! "
AMANDA: Dang.
JULIA: I'm really feeling and channeling the maenads in my life right now, Amanda.
AMANDA: Right.
JULIA: The idea of going into the woods and ripping apart things seems really nice right now.
AMANDA: Yeah, it does.
JULIA: [sighs] So the worship of Dionysus, much like Dionysus himself is two-fold. It is both freedom and ecstasy as well as savage brutality. An example of which is when Dionysus came to spread the worship to the city of Thebes, and the king there whose Dionysus his own cousin refused him and tried to force him to leave the city. Now, Amanda, you might recognize the plot of this because this is the plot of Euripides' play The Bacchae, which was performed first in 405 BCE.
AMANDA: Sure is. Damn dude, and I saw at 2008 at the National Theatre in London.
JULIA: And you'll see why because it is an impactful story. He forced his diagnosis to leave the city, Dionysus instead with his revelry recruits many of the Thebian women into his worship, including his aunt, who is the king's own mother. So when the king came to the wilderness to demand that the women returned to the city, he found that they have been in the classic Greek definition of what we're talking about, driven to madness-
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: -by Dionysus. And they thinking that the king was some sort of wild beast like a mountain lion tore him apart limb from limb.
AMANDA: Powerful to see on stage. Let me tell you that.
JULIA: Oh yeah, I can only imagine. So as the story shows, the Greeks were very aware of that as the god of wine, Dionysus was not only a merrymaker but could bring down the fall of man and we'd love that for him.
AMANDA: We do.
JULIA: Speaking of Euripides, one of the aspects of Dionysus that we haven't talked about yet is his domain over theater. Ey!
AMANDA: Ey! A place for lots of weirdos. We love it there.
JULIA: Exactly. So the festival of Dionysus known as The Great Dionysia was a theatrical event rather than a sporting event, like many of the other gods' festivals were. Every year in early spring, usually around like March time now in our modern calendar, playwrights would compete to entertain the Athenian citizenry, the plays would change year to year but the one constant was the Festival of Renewal that happened so a procession would carry a sacred statue of Dionysus into the theater, where the procession would then sing and march around with giant phalluses, naturally, as well as drinking large amounts of wine and general debauchery occurring.
AMANDA: Right. Gotta add it to our annual calendar of Greek Festival to bring back.
JULIA: We do, we truly do. So after a night of recovery, mostly for the hangovers, the next day, orphans of Athenian wars, would be paraded out to honor their fathers who had died in war, and were given the front rows of the theater, which I think is very sweet and very nice.
AMANDA: Oh, okay.
JULIA: Yes, it was nice. More plays were performed that day, usually in the order of three tragedies, and then a comedic show, and then that pattern would repeat throughout the festival for four days.
AMANDA: Fascinating.
JULIA: Do you want to know why it's three tragedies and then a comedy?
AMANDA: I am dying to know.
JULIA: Okay, so the three tragedies would be first to like, get everyone like, super emotional, and like, again, we talked about the kind of like gender role dichotomy of Dionysus. So basically, the tragedies were like for the women for them to feel their feminine feelings. And then they would do the comedic show so that the more masculine feelings could come out and then everyone would be like in the mood to like party and be gaudy and make fart jokes for the rest of the night.
AMANDA: [37:27] right? Like I get it. That's really interesting.
JULIA: Yeah. So on the fifth day, five comedic plays were performed. Party hard, the rest of that night.
AMANDA: Damn.
JULIA: Another day of recovery. And then on the final day of the festival, a winner for best play was announced, and then the festival would come to an end.
AMANDA: That's awesome, man.
JULIA: Yeah, no, it's a good time, man. I want to go to a festival like this. It seems great.
AMANDA: I can just picture us being there and not understanding a word of the Ancient Greek in which these plays are spoken and just like observing the spectacle.
JULIA: Absolutely. I think that would be a lot of fun. A lot of fun.
AMANDA: I'm also now picturing us as Wishbone the dog in matching hats one small one big. It would be adorable.
JULIA: It's like watching Shakespeare where it's like I don't exactly know what's being said all the time, but I got the general vibe.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And like if I saw like a guy come out with like, a big phallus. I would know like, that's funny. That's funny shit.
AMANDA: It's funny shit right there.
JULIA: It's funny shit right there. And then finally, Amanda kind of going from plays to poetry. It's poetry corner!
AMANDA: Yeah! Always we couldn't end. It's all great to me on anything but a poetry corner.
JULIA: "Ecstasy is in the mountains when, clad in the sacred garment, the fawnskin, the god is running with his sacred band and then just up and tumbles to the ground while in pursuit of raw-flesh joy, a slain goat’s blood. He dashes through the Phrygian and Lydian mountains. Yes, the Roaring One is leader of the dance! A-ha! Milk flows among the grasses, red wine flows, the bees’ sweet nectar flows."
AMANDA: Oh, hell yeah.
JULIA: Exactly. So the one that I want to share with you today is the Epode, which is from the first ode from The Bacchae. So here it is, since we just talked about The Bacchae.
AMANDA: Bees!
JULIA: "Waving a torch of pine that breathes the scent of Syrian frankincense, the Bacchic God keeps urging idlers on with his speed, foot-work and seductive chants, all the while tossing to the upper air his superabundant head of hair. Over the Maenad’s joyous cries his deep voice thunders words like this: “Come join us, Bacchae; Bacchae, join the dance, while all around us the luxuriance of Tmolus shines. Gold courses through the streams. Come sing for Dionysus; be guided by the thundering rhythm of the kettle-drums. Celebrate joyously the god of joy with Phrygian shouts and noise. The sacred pipe is playing sweet songs, sacred melodies, as spurs to stimulate the stragglers up the mountainside. Enthusiastic as a foal beside her grazing mother mare, a foal who stirs her swift-hooved legs to leap and leap, the Bacchant relishes her sacred choir."
AMANDA: Man, I want to get up and party right now, that's so effective.
JULIA: It's so good. I just love this image of him playing music. You know when you're at like a party and everyone's hit that kind of like drunkenness where like everyone's sleeping kind of wants to go home and then someone throws a fucking banger on the music playlist and everyone gets up and starts dancing? That's the vibe.
AMANDA: That's the vibe I can put it better myself.
JULIA: Exactly. I love him. And I love that for Dionysus.
AMANDA: I love it. I love his superabundant head of hair. I love people being joyous. I love people inviting others into dance. I think sometimes the poems that we read and the gods that we talk about, you need to worship them because if you don't bad things will happen. Or you need to worship them because you need something and something about Dionysus is legacy and role has always felt like a necessary letting go for people. And I think that whether you do it aided by wine or not, there is an absolutely necessary place for ecstasy in our lives. We need to let go into dance, to celebrate, to be joyous, and to be joyous and community. And that's something that Dionysus reminds us to do.
JULIA: Yeah. And it's like you said letting go is such an important aspect of who he is as a god and letting go does not need to be like getting drunk or you know, getting high or anything like that. Letting go can just be like letting go of the societal expectations that are set upon you and being like, no, I will run barefooted through the woods, and I will you know, sleep in a bed of dewy meadow while Dionysus and his retinue have a party like I'm cool with that. Society expects me to do one thing, but sometimes I can't always give in to what society expects of me.
AMANDA: Totally, and as someone who has trouble letting go in the company of others from time to time, I think that starting on your own is wonderful, whether it's you know, listening to your body and what it wants and resting fully and joyfully, whether it's eating something that you're craving, that your brain is, you know, making you feel bad about whether it's just standing outside in the rain, because it's pleasant, or you know, stretching out on the floor like a cat in a sunbeam. Like there are lots of ways to let go to feel pleasure and hopefully, that is a good starting point to joining Dionysus this reveling crowd from time to time.
JULIA: Yeah, and as we wrap up on Dionysus as well as our it's all Greek to me series. It seems like a lot of you guys really enjoyed these episodes. I am currently working on something for next year that is somewhat similar. So if there is a certain Pantheon or mythology that you would like to hear more about in the same style, let me know and I think we can start looking at for episode sometime next year.
AMANDA: Absolutely. We have a ton of great stuff on the calendar for the rest of 2022 lots in the hopper episode 300 is coming up I wonder, what we'll do.
JULIA: I don't know.
AMANDA: It's very exciting and I'm looking forward to even more years of revelry and worship with you, Julia.
JULIA: Yes, and in true form of Dionysus. Remember listeners–
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
[outro]
AMANDA: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Alison Wakeman.
JULIA: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website. As well as a form to send us in your urban legends and your advice from folklore questions at spiritspodcast.com.
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JULIA: We are a founding member of Multitude, an independent podcast collective, and production studio. If you like Spirits you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
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JULIA: Thanks for listening to Spirits. We'll see you next week.
AMANDA: Bye!
Transcriptionist: KM