Episode 404: American Hysteria (with Chelsey Weber-Smith)
/We are digging into urban legends near and far with our guest, Chelsey Weber-Smith of American Hysteria. We chat about the cross section of poetry and moral panic, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, and where fear comes from.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of conspiracy theories, spiders, clowns, child endangerment, home invasion, attempted murder, necrophilia, queerphobia/homophobia, illness, transphobia, patriarchy,
Guest
Chelsey Weber-Smith is a queer, nonbinary poet-turned-podcaster working to understand both American culture at large as well as the mysteries of their own humanity. They are the host of American Hysteria, which explores how fantastical thinking has shaped our culture - moral panics, urban legends, hoaxes, crazes, fringe beliefs, and national misunderstandings.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends starting to decorate for spooky season.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at https://spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Check out Exolore!
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: https://multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: And we are joined by a podcaster oft requested and finally fulfilled as a guest on this show. It's Chelsey Weber-Smith. Chelsey, welcome to Spirits.
CHELSEY: Oh, I'm so excited to be here. I— I love any urban legend, kindred spirit that I can— can talk to at length, so I really appreciate being asked to come on.
JULIA: I am so excited you are here. And for those who might not know a little bit about your podcast, can you give us the— the elevator pitch, why they should listen to American Hysteria?
CHELSEY: Yeah. We cover what we call American fantastical thinking, so definitely urban legends. That's my— my favorite thing to do. But we also do moral panics, sometimes conspiracy theories, and even like crazes, lots of hoaxes, just any time that Americans have been duped in some way or have believed in something that perhaps is at least partially untrue. And then we more so examine how those narratives have come to be, instead of whether they're true or false. So we're more interested in kind of the sociology of fantastical thinking and how that intersects with politics and anything, you know, around psychology. That's what we do. And it's a lot of fun. We try to have fun with it, but it can get pretty dark as well.
JULIA: Well, I think, like, a lot of the stuff that you have covered on the podcast, stuff like—
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —haunted dolls and urban legends, conspiracy theories, that kind of stuff is really up the alley of our listeners, 100%. But then there's also topics that you've covered where I was like, "I think any"— I almost said, "Blue-blooded, red-blooded American."
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: But, like, I think anyone who had lived through these crazes would have some interest in, like, Beanie Babies, was something that was like, "Whoa. That's not something I would ever think would come up on a podcast that also does urban legends and, you know, moral panic and Satanic panic stuff.
CHELSEY: Yeah.
JULIA: And also the thing that got me the most excited looking through your back catalog, the 12-foot tall Home Depot skeleton.
CHELSEY: That was definitely one of my favorite episodes. A lot of times, we'll take something that's popular now, like the 12-foot skeleton and kind of explore themes that relate to that hip article or that strange happening, the modern thing. And so we— so we go back and look at the way that "secret societies," quote-unquote, right, have used human skeletons in their rituals, which, of course, sounds very sinister. But when you kind of break it down, it gets a little bit more dorky. Things that relate to, maybe, how we have appropriated the skeleton as part of our Halloween lore. And, you know, the serious implications of that, as well as just how, you know, how we came to have stores like spirit Halloween, so it all kind of connects. And I just find things, different threads that I think are interesting, and then kind of weave them together into, you know, what I think is partially a historical look, and partially storytelling, and then also trying to have some sort of ending thought. I like to call it my Jerry Springer moment, because if you remember, at the end of all the chaos of the Jerry Springer show, he would, like, sit down and give some philosophical statement about what everyone had just— had just heard. So I got to write poetically as well about the 12-foot skeleton, and that was a joy for me, for sure.
JULIA: I love that as someone who, recently, after three years of waiting, got my 12-foot tall Home Depot skeleton, which arrived in the—
CHELSEY: Ah.
JULIA: —mail like three days ago.
CHELSEY: Wow.
JULIA: I am so moved. And now I'm going to think about that every time I look at him in my front yard, it's going to be great.
CHELSEY: Oh, well, congratulations—
JULIA: Thank you.
CHELSEY: —on your 12-foot skeleton. It's no easy task, it seems.
JULIA: It was a— it was a long wait.
CHELSEY: Yeah.
JULIA: But that transitions us so perfectly into the fact that you got a master's degree in poetry.
CHELSEY: I did. That's right.
JULIA: Now, I'm very curious as to, I suppose, what the transition was like for you, from, "Hey, I got a master's degree in poetry," to, "Now, I do a podcast about American conspiracy theories, and moral panics, and movements like that."
CHELSEY: Well, it was a strange confluence of factors that led me to— you know, I grew up with some conspiracy thought in my family, a lot of, like, paranormal beliefs in my family. I had a lot of very fantastical beliefs that now I have kind of wholly rejected, or at least kind of rethought in different ways. And so when I was getting my degree in poetry, that's a— you know, it's— it's not an easy industry. We shouldn't ever call poetry an industry, that feels very dark and sad to me. But it— you know, nonetheless, trying to make a job out of poetry, unless you're a professor, is— is pretty difficult. So, you know, I needed to go in a different direction, and I was hired by a company that did, like, murder mystery stuff, and I was doing writing for their games and their websites, and then they started a podcast network. I'd gotten very, very into listening to podcasts, and especially in the true crime genre, like most people. And—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —I thought, you know, "I could— I could do this." I love talking to people. I love interviewing people. So started out with a kind of more True Crime-related podcast where I interviewed people that worked in True Crime. Then they asked me to pitch something that was going to be kind of whatever I wanted, and I wanted to write. I wanted to write a script. I wanted to get the opportunity to organize my thoughts, to research, to talk about the topics that I was so interested in my whole life, which included very much urban legends. You know, I was a Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark kid, which is probably a lot of our root—
JULIA: Of course.
CHELSEY: —or, you know, beyond belief, fact or fiction. I loved all those stories. I told all those stories—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —and so it felt like natural to combine, like, the conspiracy thought, the— ooh, there's a spider on my wall, how scary right now.
JULIA: How apropos.
CHELSEY: Yeah, How apropos.
AMANDA: Do you want to take a break?
CHELSEY: Oh, no. No, I'm fine.
AMANDA: You— okay.
CHELSEY: He's gone now. Oh, no, there he is. That's okay. We're just gonna—
JULIA: It's somehow worse when they disappear when you're not looking.
CHELSEY: So it's funny, because we just did a whole series on spiders, so it's perfect that he's—
JULIA: Ooh.
CHELSEY: —that he's coming to visit me, as I've tried to get over my fear.
AMANDA: There you go.
CHELSEY: So I decided, you know, combining urban legends, my experience with conspiracy theories, my former fantastical thinking, kind of in a spiritual manner, and relook at those things, because I still love them, but I wanted to look at them through kind of this— the more skeptical person that I had slowly become. And with poetry, I think it works so well with things like urban legends and moral panics, because I think that they are a way that we express our feelings, our stresses, our concerns, our, you know, fears in kind of a metaphorical way, but happening like—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —together, right? So, like, yeah, we might be afraid that there's spider eggs in Bubble Yum, which is a popular one.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: But, actually, we might be more afraid that— that we've lost control over food production and we have to trust these giant corporations. And— and that anxiety isn't vented necessarily in a straightforward way, but it can come up in these almost poetic metaphors that I think you can kind of read as poetry. And I— and I just really have enjoyed doing that. And that's what I kind of try to do, and try to write in an engaging way. You know, storytelling is a big part of poetry, too, and so all those things just kind of, like, clicked into place. I didn't think I would do anything like this in my life, but here we are.
JULIA: That is a very similar journey, I think, to ours as podcasters—
CHELSEY: Yeah?
JULIA: —for sure. But I— I really like that idea of, yeah, you know, like sometimes, like, it's— you— spider eggs are scary, so we're— we're scared that it—
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —might be in our food. But I love that kind of— the English major that I wasn't but Amanda was sort of thing. And Amanda could probably speak to that more, but the idea of, like, yeah, sometimes the curtains in the story are just red, but sometimes the red is metaphorical, you know?
CHELSEY: Right. Yes. Absolutely, absolutely.
JULIA: I think it's so interesting— I— I really genuinely love asking podcasters how they went from what they studied to what they're doing now, because a lot of us didn't study stuff like radio production or anything, or journalism, or stuff like that. And now that we get to—
CHELSEY: Right.
JULIA: —talk about these things that we are so passionate about through the lens of the thing that we studied, I think is very fascinating.
CHELSEY: Definitely, yeah.
AMANDA: It's fun. I was also really drawn to American Hysteria when it first came out, partly because the art is incredibly good.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And evocative. And second, because you pull off a thing that I think very few podcasts do, which is solo hosting, and you—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —you know, often have guests, you often have interlocutors, but you also have episodes where you, you know, speak with us that don't ever feel like a monolog, in my opinion. Maybe in a—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —theatrical way, but it does feel like you're speaking to us. And so I wonder, as you— you know, have me this podcast for five years plus, as you think about planning episodes, what makes a story right for a solo podcast episode and what makes it right for an interview with a guest?
CHELSEY: That's a great question. I think that the solo episodes are kind of, like, my truest work, right?
AMANDA: Hmm.
CHELSEY: It's like the thing that I put so much of my energy into. And so I think when I become, like, obsessed with a topic and want to draw my own, like, new connections, because, you know, I do want to— I don't want to just reiterate things that people have already said. I want to take especially academic work and make that not only accessible, but use that to kind of make connections that maybe I don't think have been made, or posit my own theories about things. And it's much easier to do that when I have total control over an episode. So I can spend all that time to be like, "I want to say this thing." Maybe it's a complicated thing that I want to say, and it's going to be easier for me to edit that and edit that until it gets to a point that I feel is— is close to perfect, but you know what I mean. It's close to exactly what I want to say and— you know? And— and I love telling stories, so when I find a group of stories that feel like they fit together in a cohesive way, that draws a line through history, I think that that is like, "Okay, this is something big. This is part of my work, right? This is part of my contribution to this— to the field of contemporary folklore," or whatever you want to say. And then an interview will often be a book that I used for an episode, but I didn't go super into, but I feel like it's a really valuable compliment to whatever we're talking about, because most of the time our interviews are complementary to our— whatever the episode's about. So I might find an author, a podcaster, an expert of some kind that I think can add some extra something to the— to the mix that— that fleshes out. You know, because they're— I'm— I'm still limited in— when I make those solo episodes and— and I don't want to be, so I say, "Okay, you— you come on and, like, we'll— we'll kind of talk about the things that were left out in— in this person's work." And then sometimes we do one-offs, because I hear a— a story that I'm just like, "Oh, we— I— I'm not gonna do an episode about that. Like, that's actually already been done, and this person can come on and tell us this story, enlighten us with— with these truths of some kind." And a lot of times it's like my buddies who come on and I'm like, "Man, you've been doing something so interesting to me," or, "Hey, what are you interested in? What are you obsessed with? Just come on and— and we'll talk about it." Because I do like having repeat guests, because I think one of the— the difficulties for my show is being a solo podcaster, and a lot of people want to feel kinship to the host. They want to— you know, you probably understand that they like being like, "Oh, we're all friends. We're all talking."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: And it's a little harder to do that solo or with new guests every time. So I try to bring back some repeat guests that kind of become like friends of the show.
AMANDA: It does. And you, of course, incorporate listener voices in your urban legend hotline.
CHELSEY: Hmm. Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: An excellent idea. We started opening, you know, up to listener emails, but I think the hotline of having listener voices—
CHELSEY: Awesome.
AMANDA: —is— is also so special. So can you reflect a little bit on either themes from your listener urban legend hotlines? What do they tend to tell you about or ask you? And/or what has, like, lived in your head rent-free ever since you heard it? What are some just, like, standout calls from over the years?
CHELSEY: Well, I mean, the most recent one we did was the urban legend that we swallow eight spiders a year while we're sleeping.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: You know, we've done Marilyn Manson's rib removal.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: People probably know what I'm talking about, so I don't have to get too vulgar. Let's see. We've done ghost children. You know, we've done a— a few different things. You know, we probably do one every two months of those. And that is my most favorite thing to do, because I just get to completely start from scratch and be like this— I'm not trying to prove a point. I'm just trying to show you all the exa— well, some— yeah, I am trying to prove a point often, but— you know?
JULIA: But it's your show.
CHELSEY: Yeah, but it's my show, exactly. And, you know, we did, like, gang initiations, especially the lights out game.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: And I find that a lot of them come from the ''90s.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: You know, I think the ''90s were just a big urban legend time, and I think that was largely because it was not only at the very beginning of the internet, but at a time when we didn't really have the internet. So it wasn't as easy to go on the internet and be like, "Oh, it's fake." Just go to Snopes.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: "Oh, it's fake." Right?
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: You had these books coming out. They're, like, scary stories to tell in the dark. They're telling you stories like peop— you know, humans like to— or alligators in the sewer. Kind of the telling— retelling the classics for kids. And, you know, those books felt really illicit because of the— the illustrations. You know, and they started their own moral panic, and we talk about that in our episode just called Urban Legends, which is kind of a— a meta episode. Yeah, I think I get a lot of kind of '90s era urban legends. And I kind of feel like those urban legends are often repeats from the '50s or '70s, kind of remade for a new generation. But, you know, it's hard to even say that there is a particular theme that I get, because they're all so different. And, you know, I just have to choose the ones that feel like, okay, there is enough information here or enough intriguing bits that I can put together a whole episode. Sometimes you'll find something hyper local, and I'll be like, "Oh, that's a great story, but I don't really know exactly where I can take it." So I tend to be really interested in the ones that I heard growing up and that feel like they permeated kind of the consciousness around me. So I always want urban legends, so please, americanhysteria.com if you want us to do a major investigation.
JULIA: Something I always like to ask folks who talk about kind of urban legends and stuff like that as their job is, I think of stuff that spreads so universally like— and pre-internet and stuff like that, like the Marilyn Manson thing. Like someone— I was just listening to a podcast this morning that was talking about the game as a— a concept, and it's something that's spread throughout the United States and, like, worldwide.
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: Sorry to anyone who still thinks about the game every once in a while you just lost.
CHELSEY: What is the game?
JULIA: You've never heard of the game?
CHELSEY: I mean, I might— maybe I know it by another name.
JULIA: Oh, well, it's the idea of, like, it is a game that you are constantly playing—
CHELSEY: Uh-huh.
JULIA: —no matter what is going on. And if you think about the game, you immediately lose the game in which you have to say out loud, "I just lost the game."
CHELSEY: Whoa. No, I've never heard of that.
JULIA: Really? That's so interesting.
CHELSEY: Yeah.
AMANDA: It was so popular in our, like, early 2000s Long Island middle school. It— it, like, could not have been more popular.
CHELSEY: Yeah. Well, now I'm gonna go get obsessed with it. Yeah.
JULIA: You know, if you want to do an episode on it, free— free content for you.
CHELSEY: Well, yeah. And, I mean, I'm on the West Coast, right? So it's— it's— I don't know. Maybe we didn't get it over here.
JULIA: That's interesting.
CHELSEY: But you think we would have by now. Yeah.
JULIA: Who knows? I haven't thought about it since middle school and high school, so—
AMANDA: I thought of it as, like, pre-digital Rickrolling—
JULIA: Yes, almost that.
AMANDA: —because you would just like— you would, like, mention a thing that would for other people, you know, like, make them annoyed in a way that—
CHELSEY: Yeah.
AMANDA: —you know, you could kind of claim an exemption for, because you're just like, "Oh, well, it's just like me playing a game." You know?
JULIA: Besides that, besides me revealing the game to you now and cursing you with— with its existence.
CHELSEY: Yeah, I'm excited.
JULIA: The question that I had was kind of like, as someone who studies this and— and thinks and talks a lot about it, what do you think is the impetus for such widespread of those kind of stories to the point where, like, it can go East Coast to West Coast and, like, you know, kind of burn through the country, for lack of a better phrase?
CHELSEY: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that's the big question in a lot of ways, that no one's been able to completely answer.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: I think is— it could be as simple as it starts somewhere and then you're like, "Whoa. This is a crazy story. I've got to call my cousin Brent in California." You know, I live in New Jersey.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: I got to call him. Then he brings it to the school and it pops up in different places. Could be that— could be that simple. It could be more almost, for lack of a better term, Freudian, or like—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —a— a collective consciousness situation where, you know, there's something kids are afraid of, there's something even parents are afraid of that— you know, phantom clowns is a good example. Phantom clowns was a pretty local terror that— that swept more like the East Coast, but many states where people were saying— you know, and this was the 1980s. Obviously, it happened again in 2016, but in the 1980s, there was a big clown panic that combined with stranger danger, because clowns were allegedly driving around in a white van that we classically, you know, heard about throughout the '80s and '90s, that contained—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —the, you know, traveling child molester or murderer. You know, it's like— it makes sense at the time, because it combines the stories of kids being kidnapped in the '80s that were so huge and sensational and real, just very, very rare. Like Johnny Gosch or Adam Walsh. And took that fear that was not only present in kids probably, because you're sitting, eating your cereal and there's missing kids on your milk carton. I mean, that's—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —a psychic event, right? And your parents fear the news, the sense that you're going to be kidnapped at any time. And then you get, like, the cultural influences, like for example, John Wayne Gacy—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —arrested in the late '70s. You know, you know your parents— the parents, then, are talking about the clown serial killer like everybody else, and you're hearing that, you're seeing It, you know? Or you're seeing the cover of the book It. You're seeing these— this clown thing turn, right? Because you grew up with Bozo. You grew up with Ronald McDonald before clowns—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —were really, really scary. Then there's this turn that happens. And so it combines these different elements to create a legend that expresses these fears at the same time. You know, I think that could easily spread through word of mouth, through phone calls.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: Faxes even, for fax war. But, you know, I think there— I— or it pops up organically, because these things are so embedded in every part of the United States. So I think— you know, I— I love when people used to trace urban legends kind of by hand before we had the internet.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: People like Jan Brunvand, and— and Ben Radford, and all those— my heroes out there who— who did the really heavy lifting of trying to trace these stories by hand, by news reports, by word of mouth, by interviews. And so I don't think we know. I think that we can— we can theorize all day, and I think it's probably just a combination of those different factors.
JULIA: As we've gotten more urban legends, like our listeners submitted urban legends, I've realized more and more, I'm like, "Oh, adults just like lying to children."
CHELSEY: Sure.
JULIA: "Adults just love lying to children for fun."
CHELSEY: Yeah.
JULIA: "For no other reason than just fun." And I was like, "Oh, that explains so much about my life and the urban legends—"
CHELSEY: Yeah.
JULIA: "—I've experienced in the past."
CHELSEY: What's one urban legend that is like that for you, do you think?
JULIA: Amanda, you have some good ones because you had younger siblings. I— I have only child syndrome, so I often don't have good examples of, like, adults just lying.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: But Amanda, you have—
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —some good ones, I know.
AMANDA: I think there are a lot of— a lot of, like, child lies about neighbors or homes, or like, "Oh, you know, like that lady back there, you know, did something unthinkable." Or, you know, "There is a Satanic cult in this house," just because the house looks a little bit weird. And I think often that has like a— a classism or a fear of difference. I think it's— it's often like a— a kid in a teenager's way of packaging the very real sense of danger, or at least the perceived sense of danger that adults around you are pointing out.
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: You know, whether they are warning you specifically or you just— you— you pick up on the sense of social ostracization, or ostracization to— of others that, then, you know, you— you try, I think, like everything in childhood. You see it, and then you try to model it. I'm modeling like, "Oh, yeah. Like, back there, that something— something weird happened. That's why, like, there's a, you know, rusty car in someone's yard," or, like, "That's why the fence, you know, fell down."
CHELSEY: Yeah, that's great.
AMANDA: So that's— that's kind of what comes to mind.
CHELSEY: Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah, very interesting. Great thoughts.
JULIA: The— the one that came to mind for me was something that my husband did one time. He was trying to convince his, like, four-year-old cousin like, "Oh, you know, you don't want that giant pumpkin that is going to cost your mom $300 if she tries to buy it at this farm, where they sell it by weight. You want that little, itty bitty pumpkin."
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And she was like, "Why?" And he's like, "Well, you know, that's actually monster eggs, and a monster's gonna hatch out of it after Halloween." And so she found the smallest pumpkin in the entire place to make sure that not a giant monster came out of it.
CHELSEY: Hey, it's like that episode of Friends where Joey tells Phoebe that the trees need to fulfill their Christmas destiny, and that's why they were cut down. And then she bought— like, takes them all home, for any Friends fans out there.
JULIA: Sometimes that's just what you have to do for some people. You're like, "You're not going to understand the logical explanation for why you can't do that thing or why you shouldn't do that thing. So we just have to make up a—"
CHELSEY: Yeah.
JULIA: "—story that will engage you better."
CHELSEY: Yeah. And that's just a cautionary tale. I mean, that's what folklore has been for hundreds and hundreds of years probably before that, right?
JULIA: Since we were telling it around fires, yeah.
CHELSEY: Yeah. Just how— how to function within a community where there are certain—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —you know, whether fair or not, rules that you're supposed to follow and safety precautions you're supposed to take. And I think that's also just echoed in— in urban legends, which you know, of course, are our modern folklore.
JULIA: Exactly. Oh, gosh. Okay. I can't wait to talk to you more about this, but first, we very quickly have to go grab our refill.
AMANDA: Let's do it.
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JULIA: Hey, it's Julia. And welcome to the refill. Of course, we have to start by thanking our newest patrons, Sephine, AJ, James, Gus, Rikyjanne, and Evelyn, welcome. Thank you so much for spending your hard-earned money supporting us, a podcast that you hopefully listen to every single gosh darn week. You join the ranks of our supporting producer-level patrons like Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Arianna, Hannah, Jane, Jeremiah, Kneazlekins, Lily, Matthew, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sarah, and Scott. As well as our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And if you are interested in joining the ranks of those incredible people that I just listed, you can go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast today to sign up and get cool rewards like recipe cards for every episodes, ad-free episodes, bonus urban legends episodes, and so much more. Check it out. That's patreon.com/spiritspodcast. 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JULIA: We are back. And Chelsey, we love asking folks, hey, what have you been drinking lately? Whether that's mocktails, cocktails, coffee creations, what have you, what's— what's been your drink of choice lately?
CHELSEY: Well, I've been really having, like, a Rose girl summer.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Nice.
CHELSEY: You know what I mean? I've been drinking a lot of wine, and—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —I went a long time without never being, like, totally sober from drinking, but just not enjoying it anymore, because it was making me feel like shit, because I'm in my mid-30s. And—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —I just found recently that, like, I can really slam down some wine, and so I've just been really like— that was kind of my high school drink, which is really funny, was like, cheap, big Franzia bottles of wine. So—
AMANDA: Nice.
CHELSEY: —I'm returning a little bit to my roots. And it— and it's been— it's been really fun. Just downing— I'm downing Rose lately.
AMANDA: Beautiful.
CHELSEY: And, yeah, that's— that's really been my jam.
JULIA: Is there a particular Rose that you've been enjoying, or is it just like what I can get at the store that looks good?
CHELSEY: Yeah, definitely, my partner and I go by branding. We're like, if you have cool, good branding, I bet you have good taste.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: And that may not always be true, but you know?
AMANDA: In some way, that's true.
JULIA: It's showing also that they have enough money to spend on good branding.
CHELSEY: Sure.
JULIA: Which, again, like, there— there's a thing that says, like, you spend probably, like, 60% of the price of wine on branding itself, rather than—
CHELSEY: Oh.
JULIA: —actually, like, on the—
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —quality of the grapes and the production of it. But also—
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —sometimes that branding proves that it is very good, so I'm— I'm not mad about it.
CHELSEY: Hey.
JULIA: Hey.
CHELSEY: You know?
JULIA: Incredible.
CHELSEY: Yeah. So I don't have a particular.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: I don't have a particular one I can think of right now.
JULIA: I get you. That's— that's fine, though. It's whatever the prettiest bottle is at the store at the time. I feel you.
CHELSEY: I'm shallow.
JULIA: Incredible. Well, Chelsey, I think what I would love to kind of start with on our back end of the episode, you mentioned earlier how, like, you were a scary stories to tell the dark kind of person. You really liked that kind of stuff. What were the urban legends you remember as a child that were the ones that got you into urban legends and— and that sort of thing?
CHELSEY: My favorite, favorite, favorite urban legend is The babysitter and the man upstairs.
AMANDA: Hmm.
CHELSEY: Classic.
JULIA: So classic.
CHELSEY: I especially love the telling that was done by Alvin Schwartz in Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. And the way that he writes, I think, is so straightforward that it's so creepy in that way.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: Like, he has no— no flourish. It's just the facts straightforward, and the image of the man calling, laughing hanging up, calling, laughing, hanging up. And then, you know, of course, the call is coming from inside the house. We've heard that a million times, but particularly in this telling, the man opens the door to the upstairs and just starts walking down the stairs. And he just said he had a very strange smile on his face.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: And for some reason, like that is the thing where I was like, that freaked me out so much, because, of course, you can really imagine that happening to you. It's the— the— one of the greatest fears in the world, is a stranger being inside your house. I don't know. That's the one, for whatever reason, that even as a kid, I was like, "That's good storytelling." And— and I don't know if I was interacting with it in my mind as a true story, but I, you know, heard so many different versions of it. I also love High Beams, which is what I called it.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: Where the killer is hiding in the backseat with an ax. You— you think the villain is the man following the woman, putting the high beams on—
AMANDA: Hmm.
CHELSEY: —to try to actually scare the real killer who's in the backseat with the ax. So every time he comes up to— to ax the woman, you know, the light fills the car, he has to duck back down. And there's several versions of that. There's like the one with the gas station attendant who stutters and can't get out his warning. He seems like the villain.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: And I like a story— and I always have where you think one person's the villain, but it's really someone else. And the person who you think is the villain is really trying to help you. And I think that that's just a very important message. And it's a complicated message, certainly, but there was always something to that. I always liked looking at the villains—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —and— and figuring out the villains. Even as a kid, I was definitely one of those, like, 12-year-olds on the Family Computer reading about serial killers. Not to say that I was attempting to make them not villains, because that's not what I mean. But—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —just wondering about villainy and about what is truly— like what are our most evil, quote-unquote, "institutions," right? So, like, we can focus on these individual killers, why aren't we focusing on the military industrial complex?
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: Because even as— I grew up with a really political left wing father, so I, you know, I was already thinking kind of about things like that, and— and what we focus on and what we don't in our culture. And I think those are all really good metaphors for that, even if you're just drawing your own conclusions about the metaphors.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: I love that one. I have to say Humans Lick Too was one that really freaked me out.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: I think probably most people know that one. I won't— I won't go into detail.
JULIA: Yup. Yeah.
CHELSEY: Because we get very sad about dogs in our— in our world.
JULIA: Yeah, we do. We do.
CHELSEY: But— but, yeah, I think those definitely are the ones. And I will say one more that happened later in my life as I was kind of transitioning into still being interested in the urban legends, but, you know, being in college and— and not really thinking about them very much. But I was at a breakfast with a bunch of my friends, and I got a call from my mom, and I was like, "I better see what's going on. She doesn't usually call me out of the blue." So I stepped outside and she was like, "I just had to tell you the story I just heard." She was like, "A woman that I work with has a friend who—" I know.
JULIA: Already a good sign.
CHELSEY: Has a friend that, like, went to Vegas and was, like, partying and drinking. And then she met this, like, very handsome guy, and they had this great night, dancing together. And, you know, he asked her to come back home with him. He was a local, and she was like, "No, I'm sorry. I have a flight in the morning." And he, like, gives her his card, and is like, "If you change your mind." Whatever. She flies home, she looks in the mirror the next day, and has, like, a weird rash on her face. And— and it won't go away, and— and it starts to really freak her out. So she goes to the doctor, they do some tests. The doctor calls her back really fast and is like, "You need to come to the hospital right now."
AMANDA: Aah!
CHELSEY: The hazmat people come in and— and whatever, and tell her, like, the rash you have can only be caused by contact with a corpse.
AMANDA: Damn. Damn.
CHELSEY: And so— right? So then they go, and they find this man's house through her— through the card he gave her, full of corpses. He's been kissing corpses, kissing her. Great, right? And my mom tells me this, and I'm like, "Oh, my fucking God." Right? I didn't think urban legend. I was like, "No way! I can't believe this!" And so I was like, "I have to go tell all my friends right now." So I walked in, and I was like, "Whatever you're talking about, it doesn't matter. Listen to me, listen to me."
AMANDA: Yeah.
CHELSEY: And I told them the story, and someone there said to me, "Oh, I heard that. That happened to someone that I know who knows someone." And at that moment, I was like, "Oh, it's an urban legend." And I was, like, so excited.
JULIA: "My mom got me."
CHELSEY: You know? And she— but my mom did believe it was true, right?
JULIA: Of course.
CHELSEY: So it was like— it was just great. It was one of those, like, moments that I always remember that were really— it was actually very exciting to me, because I was like, "Oh, it happened. Like, the urban legend happened to me." And I think— I just never forgot that. And, like, the kind of joy it brought me, that I kind of got in on one of these things. And so, yeah, I just— I— I kept that in my head as just a joyous moment.
JULIA: I mean, that is such a fascinating, like, experience to have, especially when that is something that interests you so much, to have it happen to you and be like, "I'm a part of it."
CHELSEY: It did. Uh-huh.
JULIA: "I'm a part of the thing that I've been studying and thinking about for so long now."
CHELSEY: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: I had, like— you've kind of activated my Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark trap card, because now I'm— all I can think about—
CHELSEY: Ooh.
JULIA: —is, like, all the stories that I loved from the book series and—
CHELSEY: What do you got?
JULIA: Oh, the story where the couple is on vacation and they find, like, a stray dog, and they decide, "Oh, well, we like this stray dog so much. It's so ugly, but so cute. I'm gonna take it home with us."
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And they take it home, and the dog starts acting really strangely. So they're like, "Oh, we should take this dog to the vet, because we found it on the street in another country. We should see what's going on with that." And they take it to the vet and the vet's like, "This is a rat. You brought home a giant rat."
CHELSEY: Yeah. Right.
JULIA: "What are you doing?"
CHELSEY: I remember that one, for sure. I remember that one, for sure.
JULIA: And I think that's also something that I really like about horror and urban legends, and I think it's something that people love about horror movies too, is when you see a character make a terrible decision.
CHELSEY: Yeah.
JULIA: And know that like, "I would never make that decision if I was in the situation. I would never run upstairs if there was a murderer in the house."
AMANDA: Hmm.
CHELSEY: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "Because how am I gonna get out now?"
CHELSEY: Yeah, yeah.
JULIA: And I— I just think that that is something that appeals to a lot of people, is thinking that they're smarter than what the story is implying.
CHELSEY: Yes. I agree. I think that's like a coping mechanism.
JULIA: Oh, yes, definitely. And so if— hey, if that's how you have to cope with—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —the horror of— of life and what you're handling in your day to day, sure. Why not?
CHELSEY: It could be a lot worse.
JULIA: It could be a lot worse.
CHELSEY: It could be a lot worse things, yeah.
JULIA: It'd be a lot worse, for sure.
AMANDA: So many of these urban legends that we've recounted, even the last couple of minutes, are so heteronormative, and have this, like, underlying fear of, you know, like single women being taken advantage of, or like a fear of, like, sex or grossness or disease or, like, whatever it might be. And I know, for me, I've only ever gone through life as a queer person, and so for me, the experiences of, like, becoming an adult, realizing I'm queer, and, like, applying a queer lens to everything in my life, of, like, should anything be the way it is, right? Like, do I want to grow up and get married, have a family? Like, have the— you know, have a— a certain career? All those things for me were, like, up for deciding because I'm queer. And so I wonder if there is, like, an inherently queer impulse or perspective, or just a lot of overlap between being the kind of person that might be the— the— you know, the cautionary tale of a story like this, or the kind of people who have a lot of kinship with the folks who are shown to be the ones who need a lesson. I don't know. It's kind of like more of a thought than a state— than a question, but Chelsey, does any of that resonate with you?
CHELSEY: I mean, it's a great thought, great question. When you were talking, the thought that came to my head was like, "We have this, like, inherent bullshit detector when it comes to, you know, the heteronormative, the theater of heteronormativity as I like to call it.
JULIA: Hmm.
CHELSEY: And—
AMANDA: Yeah.
CHELSEY: —there's this, like, way that we can see kind of through, maybe the ways that the culture would like us to be afraid, would like to control our movement and behaviors. Maybe not quite so much now, but maybe in the— the— the birthplace of so many of our classic urban legends, '50s, '70s. Like, both of those times were rife in different ways. The '50s being a time of, you know, active repression, active post-war. Go back to the kitchen, you're done working now. And then—
AMANDA: Yeah.
CHELSEY: —you know, the '70s being second wave feminism, and the fight against that, and kind of the cautionary tales that would spark the Satanic panic. Even The Babysitter tale, we talked about, like, a lot of folks, including me, think that that's a story that takes aim at mothers who— who don't stay at home, and who put their children in the hands of these young, irresponsible, maybe hippies, maybe a hippie puts the baby in the oven, thinking it's a turkey because she's on acid, right?
JULIA: Oh, classic.
CHELSEY: So I think— classic. But I think that, you know, being queer, we just don't need to subscribe to those kinds of fears, and we don't actively— you know, depending on— obviously, we're all socialized growing up in certain ways, and so it's still within us and— and those fears are within us, but I think it's like, if you're queer, you're kind of like, "Well, that's not true for me, so it's probably not true for the over culture at— at large." You know, maybe the fears that we're told to have are not really the fears that we should have. And of course, there's plenty of urban legends around the dangers of queerness too. Like maybe HIV needles and movie theaters, right? Like, people are actively trying to harm the straight community. I remember there was one where gay men were pricking the hands of people who they shook hands with, with, like, a ring that gave you HIV.
AMANDA: Gosh.
CHELSEY: So, you know, I think there are those cautionary tales that were also leveled against, often gay men, but there's certainly some— some— some fun lesbian moral panics in there as well. And of course, plenty of trans urban legends now that act to, I think, warn— again, warn us about not acting in basically the American, quote-unquote, "structure" that we're supposed to exist in— in those hierarchies. And so, I think just being outside the hierarchy, much easier to look at it and say, "Not only are they telling lies about me, and my friends, and the people I love that are really damaging and ugly, but they're also telling lies, I bet, in like—"
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: "—many other ways." And of course, that extends beyond urban legends, but there's just so much in common with moral panics and urban legends. They're just— urban legends are kind of like just moral panics for kids, almost. And they just don't know what they're saying, whereas like—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: —a moral panic person might have— not necessarily have, but there are architects of moral panics.
AMANDA: Yes.
CHELSEY: Or exploiters of moral panics, to be sure. And I just think being queer—
JULIA: Yes.
CHELSEY: —gives you a totally different outlook on the world and life and structure. And, you know, I think it's a— a lucky, very, very lucky perspective to get to have, because you break free of so many aspects of control. And you're able to just look at it and be like, "That sounds wrong to me, and I don't have to just believe it, because I've been socialized that— that whatever I'm told is—"
AMANDA: Yeah.
CHELSEY: "—is the truth by the media." I don't know. Talking heads, politicians. You know, all of the powerful people and those that just would like to— to keep gender very separate, to keep aspects of power that benefit both sides of that coin.
AMANDA: Absolutely. And I mean, like you said, you know, we're— we're not a monolith. Nobody's, I think, identity leads conclusively to anything that they could potentially believe in the worldview. But I, at least, am grateful for, like, the— the nudge or the head start, or the predisposition. That I just, like, have a predisposition to anxiety and depression. I also have one, I think, toward thinking that, you know, structural immovabilities are not so immovable after all.
CHELSEY: Hey, you and me both.
JULIA: And it's also so fascinating, because, you know, the precursor to urban legends is folklore and fairy tales and stuff like that. And those are all about the same thing, where it's you— they are trying to distill into children, "This is how you have to act in society. And if you don't act this way, you will be shunned, or bad things will happen to you."
CHELSEY: Yeah.
JULIA: And it's also really interesting and fascinating the fact that we are now getting to see such a, like, movement of queer retellings of fairy tales and folklore.
CHELSEY: Hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And now these urban legends as well. And it's— it's a good time to be alive in a lot of ways.
CHELSEY: Yes.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: Very different than the early 2000s and—
JULIA: Oh, yeah.
CHELSEY: —mid-2000s, yeah.
JULIA: Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure, for sure.
AMANDA: Chelsey, something I really admire about you, and actually pull from your bio, is like— you write in your bio like, "I— I love life. I love people. I love humanity. Like, I— I love being here." I— I think it's really admirable, and something that I am trying to square, I think, to— to spend, you know, a life and career in the way that you do, looking at, you know, in some ways, some of the darkest parts of humanity, the ways that we, you know, rationalize bias and exclusion, the ways that, you know, moral panics or understandable impulses can— can spiral to something that is so harmful to so many kinds and groups of people. So I guess this is a little bit cliche of a question, but like, what do you— you know, what keeps you coming back? What do you love about, as I would put it, like our weird, like, overgrown, you know, brains that love patterns, and love narrative, and love mapping that onto anything that we can't understand?
CHELSEY: You know, I think, you know, my bio, saying I love people and stuff, obviously, that's limited in certain ways. But it's also just kind of universally true, because I feel like I try to— and, you know, a lot of people don't think that this is the right way to be, and— and that's fine. But I— I do try my best to understand people, even those that— that maybe are not actively trying to understand me. I find that there is so much common ground that we have as people, and there are so many ways that we are manipulated every day by the media, by politicians, by the fears, and prejudices that are harnessed and then used to control large swaths of the population, and everyone included. And I think that I tend to want to cultivate as much solidarity as possible. Like, I don't see working class white Americans as an enemy, even though sometimes democratic policy will kind of use that whole, you know, sect of people and act like they're a monolith and act like they're all, you know, racist, hillbilly rednecks. And I don't like that. I think that's a really horrible thing that, you know, many people don't do, especially on the left. But, you know, I think a— a lot of people do kind of centrist types of folks. And I just feel like that's really not helpful to demonize. Like, I don't— I— I— punching across the aisle, I'm not interested in, really. You know, I'm not interested in punching at people who—
AMANDA: Yeah.
CHELSEY: —maybe hold a similar amount of power to me, but have been socialized, raised by their families, raised by politics to maybe find me to be a villain somehow. But I feel like within a few minutes of having a conversation with someone, they just see you as a person, and they're like, "Whoa. Like, I've had a lot of folks in my life change their perspective because we've hung out."
AMANDA: Amazing.
CHELSEY: And, like, maybe they're not going to suddenly become the best allies in the world, but every time they hear something about the queer community as a whole, they're gonna have that person that they've met and spent time with, and who has showed them kindness, and ask them questions, and say, "Oh, that's not like a Satanic pedophile. That's like a normal person." And to be clear, I don't expect anyone else to do that. I don't even necessarily think it's the right way, but it is just the way that I can get through my life without, like, having a heart so broken that nothing matters, right? And I just like—
AMANDA: Hmm.
CHELSEY: Because I love people. I used to hitchhike a lot, so I've been in confessional booths, essentially, with every kind of person that you could really think of.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: And I found, like, humanity in everyone. I don't know. I think that we've just made issues very black and white. I think that's okay. Again, this is just my way of being. I think there are so many ways to be in the world and so many ways to combat the things that harm us. And, you know, I don't think everybody deserves that. I don't— it's not about that, right? It's almost about a self-preservation and a way to aim for what I hope for, which is more solidarity against the powerful forces that actually are manipulating and hurting us. Like, if we could spend less time fighting on the internet and more time shining light on the— the lies, the manipulations, and the crimes of the people in power, that would probably do us all a big service.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
CHELSEY: And it would probably cause a lot less division in a country that's actively being divided by people with an interest in our outrage. I think that— that answers just a part of your question. I think what keeps me coming back is, one, like a passion for the subject matter, easily, just I'm so interested in it. And two, it helps me kind of read our culture and read how we got here. And then, you know, in my best of times, hopefully use that information to educate all kinds of people. I try to make the show— even though it's obviously very queer, but I do try to make it accessible to folks who might want to show it to a family member that they feel like has started to go off the deep end. So I'm— I'm not always just talking to, like, just my peers. I want to talk to, like, anyone that maybe still has a little bit of heart inside their body. And so I think that that is in terms of, like, a mission, and why I come back, learning our history helps illuminate the present, and reading our stories and reading the things that we fear is maybe the most important way to understand our culture and just our humanness. That's the lofty— the lofty hope. And yeah, I just— I love a good story. That's really the heart of it.
AMANDA: Beautifully put. Thank you.
JULIA: And if that is not a— a moving reason to go and check out American Hysteria, I don't know what is.
CHELSEY: Hey, I appreciate that.
AMANDA: In addition to, folks, podcast apps, Chelsey, is there anywhere else that you'd love to direct our listeners' attention to follow you and your work online?
CHELSEY: americanhysteria.com, we got stuff there. We got merch and urban legends hotline if you want to leave us a message or we're— we are finally off Twitter. I have nailed that coffin shut, and the vampire will not be coming back out. But I am on Instagram, which is slightly less horrible, @americanhysteriapodcast, so you can follow me there.
JULIA: Incredible. Chelsey, thank you so much for joining us. We— we really appreciate it. It was a great conversation, and we're so glad you were— you were able to join us.
CHELSEY: Oh, I love talking to you both so much. This was so fun, and I— I really appreciate being asked to come on.
JULIA: Of course. And listeners, make sure you check out American Hysteria. And the next time that someone tries to tell you a story about someone who was kissing corpses in Las Vegas, remember, stay creepy.
AMANDA: Stay cool.
CHELSEY: Spread it around.
JULIA: Spread it around.
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