Once Upon A Time...
/Every story has to start somewhere. Whether it’s with “once upon a time” or “when tigers used to smoke tobacco”, storytellers have been setting the scene for their audiences in beautiful and interesting ways. Join us as we dig into the origins of story beginnings AND endings!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of totalitarian rule, state kidnapping, drowning, enslavement, and imperialism.
Housekeeping
- See us LIVE! Buy a ticket to our March 23 live show in Portland at spiritspodcast.com/live.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
- Multitude: multitude.productions
About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week, we pour drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: Julia, let me just tell you a little bit of a story today.
Julia: Oh, okay.
Amanda: Once upon a time, there was a almost 10 year old podcast. Our podcast is, is kind of considering Middle School now. We had a wonderful Patreon filled with supporters who make this our jobs and make it possible to do this and pay researchers and editors and social media people to help us run this podcast. And we decided to make that podcast and its Patreon even better. Are you interested in like, hearing more about the story?
Julia: Amanda, I would love to hear more about that story. What an engaging beginning to a classic story.
Amanda: And don't worry, guys, this is a full episode of Spirits. All about the beginnings of stories and fairy tales, which I'm so excited to learn about. But first, I do want to tell you that we have some cool new spring cleaning and refreshments coming on over to the Patreon. Starting with Julia. You know how we've been doing recommendations in the show in the mid roll in for the last four years?
Julia: Pretty much forever.
Amanda: Pretty much forever. We want to do that in newsletter form.
Julia: Yes, we do. And so we are going to be doing a monthly recommendation newsletter instead of our Rex in the episode for all paid patrons. So if you are at any tier on the Patreon, you're going to be getting this once a month of a couple of different things that Amanda and I have really been loving this month.
Amanda: And we will link you directly to them. We will tell you about why we're enjoying it. I'm going to challenge myself to take photos of me playing the game or reading the book or listening to the music out in the world, and it'll be just another fun thing for people who are already patrons.
Julia: Hell yeah. I'm so excited. That's going to be a really fun way to, like codify it, and also an easier way for you folks on the Patreon to find and access the things that we recommend on the show.
Amanda: Exactly. Also, if you are at the top tier of our Patreon, or even thinking about it, if you're like, hey, I'd love to give some extra money to Spirits. Or if you've been thinking to yourself, God, I wish Spirits would do this specific episode about this trope or character or story or country of origin. Great news, our top tier Patreon benefit for everyone who joins the top tier, either after a year of monthly membership, or right away if you sign up as an annual Top Tier member, is we're going to make a custom mini sewed up your choice.
Julia: It's true. I'm going to listen to your recommendations and then make an episode for you specifically.
Amanda: We will share it just with you, and you can listen to it, and then later, if you want us to, we will also maybe even stitch together a bunch of those for a public episode, but you get to choose, because it's your episode. Your custom minisode.
Julia: Wooo. And just a lot of other cool things have happened to Patreon since we started using it almost 10 years ago. You can now do a free trial. If you've been like, hey, I'd love to catch up on a bunch of, you know, bonus urban legend episodes, for example, or see what those recipe cards look like, or read the director's commentary. Hey, you can do it now. Sign up for a free trial, and then if you want to stick around, great. And you know, if you don't, I'll get over it. That's okay, it's okay. Our feelings aren't that hurt. It's fine. Don't worry about it. And remember, you can also gift memberships. So whether you're a monthly or an annual member, you can also gift memberships to somebody for a birthday, for an anniversary, for a you know, sorry, the world sucks, but I know you really enjoy Spirits present. I'm just gonna recommend it. It's a good idea. Any sort of gift giving holiday.
Amanda: And you guys may also know that we offer 10% off of all Spirits merch to our insiders tier. It's our middle tier. Hey, y'all may want to check out the merch store at spiritspodcast.com/merch. Because we have incredible new ghost cat distribution system stickers and buttons.
Julia: They're really cute. I have one on my water bottle right here. You can't see it because this is an audio medium, but there it is.
Amanda: It's so cute. Brent had the idea, and we said, yes, please. And Brent's friend drew a gorgeous illustration, and now we have ghost cat stickers and buttons, which you can get for 10% off if you're a patron at the insider tier or above.
Julia: And not just those, but all the merch.
Amanda: All the merch. And we're working hard this year, folks to partner with more small businesses and makers to make you fewer cooler pieces of merch. Things that you're like, oh my God, I want to own this forever, because we love a pin. Obviously, we're bisexual. We love a sticker. We love a button. We also want to make cool shit that we couldn't make otherwise. So stay tuned, and if you like it, show us with your dollars at spiritspodcast.com/merch.
Julia: Yeah. Do it. Do it.
Amanda: Alright, Julia, where can people sign up to follow our patreon for free, to try a free membership or to join or even upgrade their tier?
Julia: That's patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And remember, we also have all of our cool like older rewards, like recipe cards, for every single episode, ad free episodes, and, of course, our bonus urban legends episodes every gosh darn month.
Amanda: 20 or 30 episodes of Amanda's poetry corner. There's 10 years of stuff there folks.
Julia: I forgot about poetry corner.
Amanda: Alright. Thank you for listening to our spiel. Thank you for your ongoing support. We are so excited to be bringing you even cooler, newer rewards. But Julia, let's get the show going.
Julia: Yeah. Amanda, what if I said to you, once upon a time?
Amanda: I'd say, Julia, I stole that line a little bit for the bit around Patreon. But then I would say, okay, this must be a fanciful story, because that is what I was raised to believe, that all good fairy tales specifically begin with.
Julia: Okay, how about a long time ago?
Amanda: I'd probably say, in a galaxy far, far away. But—
Julia: Okay.
Amanda: A long time ago sounds like a story about where I am and where I live and what happened here before I was alive.
Julia: How about beyond nine seas, beyond nine lagoons?
Amanda: I'd say, tell me what now, because that one's new to me.
Julia: Or even back when Tigers used to smoke tobacco.
Amanda: Would love to see it, frankly.
Julia: Amanda, all across the world, we tell stories, and we talk on the show all the time about oral tradition and the importance of storytelling. And while we often talk about the stories and the similarities and differences between these stories, globally, we don't often talk about the structure of storytelling. And one of the things that I love is that when we tell stories, we have to indicate that the story is beginning and that that story has ended. So we have to create the world in which the story can exist, right?
Amanda: We absolutely do. As a literature major. This is called meta text, or meta textual studies. The wrappings, the bindings. You're not just picking up a book, cracking it open and expecting to fall into another world. You are sitting down with someone, getting settled, and then at some point, the show has to start right? That's why we lower lights in a theater. That's why a speaker will get up on a rock or an apple crate or a stage to tell us something special.
Julia: Exactly. So when we say something like once upon a time, it is designed to bring us to some place new, someplace different. It is a different time, a different land where this story can exist. And it also tells us what kind of story is about to be told. Because, as you pointed out, the phrase once upon a time nowadays to us, carries this connotation, right? This is going to be a fairy tale story. The gossip about the woman at the market doesn't start with once upon a time, you know?
Amanda: Exactly. We are transitioning from the mundane and the everyday to something a little more removed and a little more fantastical.
Julia: Yes, it's something otherworldly, it's something far flung. It's something fantasy, and it will most likely end with a lesson and hopefully a happy ending.
Amanda: I hope.
Julia: So, I am focusing here on once upon a time, because that in the English language is the one that we hear the most. But even in the English language, even though the phrase is so codified now in the modern day, it wasn't always what we used to say.
Amanda: Tell me more.
Julia: So the first time that a similarly written phrase was used in Old English, of course, not in our modern English, was a part of the life and passion of St. Juliana, which was written around 1225.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: Now there is a little like introduction, bit like two paragraphs or so of just introduction about the life of St Juliana. And then the story begins with and this is translated to modern English. In that time, as the legend tells.
Amanda: As the story goes—
Julia: We get a little bit closer to our once upon the time in Chaucer's The Knight's Tale. Which I didn't realize that Knight's Tale, the movie with Heath Ledger, was based on a— I probably should have, because Chaucer is one of the characters in that movie. But you know, sometimes things pass us by and we just simply don't know.
Amanda: And to be polite, as my best friend Julia, you sometimes share with me the rare instances where that happens to you, as opposed to me saying all the time. Uhh, that's why we do that.
Julia: Hmmm. All that makes sense. So Chaucer's The Knights tale from The Canterbury Tales, he starts a story with ones on a time. Now, after that, it pops up more and more and more published works, making it a little bit easier for us to track down the movement of it. For example, the Countess of Pembroke's Ivy Church from 1591 starts with, once on a time when nymphs and pastors chanced to be sporting.
Amanda: Oh, my look at that syncretism law, it's not pagan, it's fine. Just a pastor escorting a little nymph home from the Glade.
Julia: Just having a little fun, a little sport out in the field.
Amanda: A little wink between a pastor and a nymph, what could go wrong?
Julia: What could go wrong? I'm sure it's fine, no big deal. And even by 1595 it gets to the point where it's already being parodied, because it's so common.
Amanda: That's how you know.
Julia: Yeah, so George Peel included it in his play the old wives tale. Quote, “once upon a time, there was a King or a Lord or a Duke that had a fair daughter. The fairest there ever was as white as snow and as red as blood.” So this is kind of this like, kind of like, yeah, we have all heard the same story. There's a—there's a king or some royal, and he's got a beautiful daughter, and she looks like this. And, yeah, of course.
Amanda: Yeah. And—and the details don't matter, because what we are talking about is like the shape of a story, the pattern of a story. We all, at that point, have the experience of someone sitting us down to tell us the story about, you know, Rapunzel, Cinderella. Whatever it ends up being.
Julia: Yes. And So Amanda, I ask you, what is it that solidified once upon a time as the English phrase to start fairy tales.
Amanda: I got nothing.
Julia: It is partially because of Charles Peralt, who we've talked about before on the podcast. He's a French author and folklorist. You might remember him from our episodes on Beauty and the Beast, for example. He features a lot in sort of the fairy tales that we consider now the classics. Right?
Amanda: Cool.
Julia: So when his 1695, fairy tale collection was translated to English, about 100 years after it was published. The translator, a man named Robert Samber, took Elete Un Fois, which is the French phrase, and translated it to once upon a time.
Amanda: Now is that a translation with liberties? My French is not good enough to know if that's like very one to one.
Julia: Yes. It is a translation with liberties, because it's basically like one time this happened, basically.
Amanda: Okay, okay.
Julia: More or less. So the same thing happened again about 100 years later, when Edgar Taylor translated a collection of fairy tales from the Brothers Grimm from Eswar In Mau it was once to Once Upon a Time. And then again, this happens with Mary Howitt who translated Hans Christian Andersen's Danish fairy tales from Der var ingen, there was once to once again, once upon a time.
Amanda: Which I think brings up a fascinating question of translation, which is always trying to find the most appropriate setting between literalism and conveying meaning, which involves a lot of meeting a reader in translation where they're at. And so if, as you say, from the 1500s once upon a time, was the phrase in modern English we use to denote a fairy tale, then of course, that's the one you're going to choose.
Julia: Yeah. And I think that we talked about this a little bit during our Beowulf episode. The translation of what in the Old English to a variety of different translations to the point where we got yo!
Amanda: Exactly.
Julia: So by the time we get to Carlo Collodi, who's the writer of Pinocchio, which we've— we've covered in the past. He starts the story with, once there was a king, cry my little readers, but no children, you're wrong. Once there was a piece of wood.
Amanda: I'm so interested. I love to deviate from form.
Julia: Oh, it's so nice. It's so cool. So that's why we have once upon a time. But Amanda, that's just English. That's just English, baby.
Amanda: I know that one already, boring.
Julia: So listeners who speak more than one language probably are already thinking about the stories that they've heard in other languages and how those stories begin. And each of these formulaic openings kind of serves a different purpose, much like our once upon a time does. So, for example, there are a variety of openings in African folk tales. And one of my favorites is a house of beginning, though it is also similarly translated from a con, which is a story, a story, let it come, let it go.
Amanda: Oh, oh, goose bumps.
Julia: This is often used as the opening for the Anansi stories, for example. And sometimes it is expanded further to we do not really mean, we do not really mean that what we are about to say is true. A story, a story, let it come, let it go. It's beautiful, right? And I really like this version, because it almost tells the audience like, stay here for a moment, exist in the story. And then when the story is over, you will know that you have returned back to your world.
Amanda: It's beautiful. And also, I think, prevents us from resisting the magic and the lesson of a story in order to poke holes with logic or reason or, you know, why did that happen? It's—it's inviting and instructing us, much like the meta text of a theater of velvet curtains of a movie theater of dimming the lights of a fireplace, of a podium, The way all of those things say, focus your attention just here for a minute. This is not a conversation. This is not a sort of mundane anecdote about like what happened at the market or at work or at worship. It is instead about going somewhere else. And to your point, Julia, it's like, don't worry, you're—you're going to be returned, much like the beginning and the ending of the Tempest.
Julia: Yeah, it's gone. I—I think we're going to talk a lot about how framework is so important to telling stories in this episode. So keep— keep your English major brain on here Amanda, but—
Amanda: I can't turn it off. I can't.
Julia: I know. So we also see something similar in Yoruba, which is, here is a story, story it is. Which I think is also really beautiful. And all of these, much like once upon a time, separate the story from reality, right? But this version also seeks to teach. And I think this is a theme that we'll talk about in other story introductions that I think that once upon a time, kind of lacks as an introduction to stories. But in these cases, the listener or the reader learns not only the story, but something about the nature of stories, about how to share them, how to carry these traditions forward, how to become the storytellers themselves, but also learning that stories, by their nature, are fiction. Isn't that beautiful?
Amanda: Oh so good.
Julia: So we see something similar in that sort of educational instruction, introduction. More explicitly laid out in the beginning of a lot of Chilean stories, which is, listen to tell it and tell it to teach it.
Amanda: [pants]
Julia: I know, it's gonna be a lot of that this episode.
Amanda: Julia, normally, I try to be like a really complex interlocutor for you. I try to like, process stuff, give it back, offer you things to like, jump on. Today might just be me going, oh my God my hands are sweating. Oh my god, I have goosebumps. Oh my god.
Julia: Honestly, I like this one. I think it could be the slogan of Spirits, if you think about it.
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: You know, this is— it's an incredibly important one, because in telling stories, you are training that next generation of storytellers.
Amanda: Especially in countries like Chile with histories of oppression and totalitarian sort of rule over people and—and disappearing people, disappearing information, overriding narratives that people know to be true with false, state sponsored narratives like oh my God.
Julia: And that is when something specifically like oral storytelling tradition becomes incredibly important, because these storytellers are the ones who have to pass along this information, pass along these stories, pass along the culture.
Amanda: Not everything is here for our entertainment, you know? Like, sometimes, often, usually, we are a part of a chain with responsibilities to those who come after. And reminding us that, for lack of a better phrase, Julia, we live in a society and we are part of a chain, and everything we do or don't do impacts the future in some way, incredibly worthwhile.
Julia: Yeah. And I think that's also relevant for the next one that I'm going to tell you about, which is a traditional Irish introduction, which really highlights the importance of the next generation teaching as well, which is, it was long, long ago. If I was there that time, I would not be here now. But as I am, I have one small story as I have it today, may you have it 7000 times better tomorrow.
Amanda: Wow. And also, let me just say, so Irish to be like a short story, a short yarn, one pint, you know, one song, and you're there six hours later.
Julia: Yeah. And, you know, like reading this for the first time. I don't know, maybe the times have me emotional at the moment. But—
Amanda: Oh, these—these ones right now, these ones right now in March 2025?
Julia: [19;22] yeah. The times we're living right now have me a little emotional. But I really love an introduction that really highlights that storytelling can give hope about the future. And the stories can continue to pass on.
Amanda: Exactly.
Julia: And we'll talk about more when we talk about endings. But oh my god, the endings, that highlight the storyteller and the way that the story will continue.
Julia: Oh, beautiful.
Amanda: I've said it a lot on this podcast, Julia, but go ahead, put it on my tombstone. You know, I imagine I'm going to find a new epitaph somewhere in this episode today.
Julia: Excellent. I love it. There are also introductions that are. And to engage the audience, to kind of make sure that they're listening and to make sure that they are receptive to hearing the story. So in the Caribbean and other African diaspora, the story begins first with a call and response. So the narrator would say, I say creak, and then the audience will say, back crack. So they'll go, creak, crack, creak, crack, and back and forth a couple times until everyone's kind of paying attention to the story, you know?
Amanda: We're settled, we're locked in or ready. What a great pedagogical tool.
Julia: Yeah. Actually, Amanda, a quick aside, did you know that call and response, especially how we use it here in the United States, is a inherently African cultural invention?
Amanda: I happened to know that, but I think because of white supremacy, a lot of people don't, so go in.
Julia: Yeah. So originally it was used both in religious practices, but also in civil practices. So it was kind of like a version of democratic participation. And when the African people were enslaved and brought to America, that practice went into call and response work songs as well as religious songs, and it transitioned into a lot of different forms of music, like blues and RNB and jazz and hip hop.
Amanda: And if you haven't googled the phrase re-Africanization of the mandolin, folks, there is a whole world out there for you, I highly recommend. If there is anything about Americana, American culture or American music that you enjoy, nine times out of 10 you have African culture, music and history to thank for it.
Julia: So knowing that call and response is such a part of a lot of storytelling makes a lot of sense, because it is a like democratic way to engage everyone, to have them be a part of the story, much like the origins of call and response.
Amanda: Storytelling and art are civic practices, and it makes utter sense that we will pull from the same tool boxes to do both.
Julia: Yes, exactly. In Maori, storytelling, it is all about where the stories come from. And I have a great quote from a man named Te Aho Karamu Charles Royal, who is the director of the Museum of New Zealand, Te Papa Kangarewa.
Amanda: Hell yeah.
Julia: Here's the quote. “Our traditional conventions are, you start with the genealogy from earth to sky. And as you come down the genealogy, you get to a certain ancestor, and when you get to that ancestor, you begin the story about that person.” So for example, earth and sky came together and had a child called Tane, the forest. Tane then had another child named Mubawango, and Mubawango had another child, and that child was said to have been raised upon the ocean. One day, the child was on the ocean and met a group of dolphins, and then the story begins.
Amanda: Beautiful.
Julia: So not only is this sort of tying stories to the past and how they have been told by previous generations, but also ties people to the natural world that they are a part of. As Royal puts it, genealogies are genealogies of the world of the birds and the bees and the fish and the trees as well as humans. And all of that is woven together in this web of relationships. The storytelling is as much about these genealogies as it is about the adventures of those individual characters
Amanda: 100%. And hey, Julia, would it surprise you to learn that the you know, fundamentally imperialist state government of New Zealand is working to erase the centrality of Maori language and culture that Maori people have fought to get any recognition for over the last 150 years, and claw back even those meager gains. Because the language and culture and genealogies of married people make it so clear that as they are in New Zealand is in fact not a country that is several 100 years old, but in fact several 1000s years old of several, several dozen, if not hundreds, of relationships, of interconnected peoples with histories that did not begin when white folks landed there.
Julia: Would that surprise me that the government is doing that? No, no.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: No. We'll talk a little bit more about that and the stories, how they begin and how stories end. But before we finish our tales, Amanda, why don't we quickly grab our refill?
Amanda: Let's do it.
[theme]
Amanda: Hey everybody, Amanda, here, welcome to the refill. And a special welcome up at the top to everybody who takes this opportunity here in the the refill to be like, hey, I think that all those wonderful things all said about the Patreon earlier in this episode really inspired me. And I am going to go right now to patreon.com/spiritspodcast to join the Spirits Patreon, where you're going to get all our recommendations in a monthly newsletter. You can even get a custom bonus minisode of your choosing, and you can certainly have your name read out here in the refill. Like Dlove60, who is the most recent person to join the Patreon as a paid member as of when I'm recording this mid roll. So hey, thank you so much if you are going to do that, if we never meet again here in the refill because you're enjoying ad free episodesat patreon.com/spiritspodcast. Godspeed. Thank you so much. And thank you to our supporting producer level patrons, Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Hannah, Jane, Lily, Matthew, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Scott, Wil and AE (Ah). And for legend level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. If you have not yet gotten a ticket to our Portland Oregon live show on March 23, you gotta do it. This is your final reminder. We're flying to Portland in like three days. Go to spiritspodcast.com/live, to get tickets, and if you are not able to make it, but you know someone who lives in Portland, you would mean the world. If you would text them and be like, hey, this event is going to be great vibes. We are highly encouraging masking. So if you are COVID cautious, immunocompromised, or otherwise doing masked things, you can come and enjoy too. It's going to be so much fun. You don't have to know anything about mythology and folklore. You don't have to understand this podcast, and you don't even have to know anything about Dungeons and Dragons or actual play podcasts for the Join the Party half. It is going to be all vibes, all fun, no pre knowledge required. So believe me, folks, you don't want to miss it. Come on out to Portland, Oregon and get your tickets at spiritspodcast.com/live. Big day for us here at Multitude, because we have a new sibling. We have a new member show, and it is called This Guy Sucked. I kind of only have to say that for you to know that this is a podcast worth your time. But let me tell you a little bit more. This is a History podcast for haters by haters. Where historian Dr Claire Aubin, who you may remember from our episode about the mythology of Nazi Zombies. So much fun. She is incredible. Brings on a new expert every week to pull back the scholarly curtain on some of the world's biggest bummers. No dead person is safe, and the show's guests prove that the best part of understanding the past is criticizing it. Now because you are here listening to Spirits, I know you appreciate history, so you are going to love Dr. Aubin's guests takes on people like Charlemagne and Carl Schmitt. Basically every episode, giving you the ammo you need to win an argument the next time you're like around the dinner table or in a car or in the Instagram comments of someone else's post about why history's main characters are actually kind of terrible. But I have to emphasize this, the vibes are excellent. The vibes are incredible on This Guy Sucked. So you have to go ahead and listen the first two episodes come out tomorrow, as of when this episode of Spirits comes out, Thursday, March 20. But if you remember the multi crew, you already got to listen to it. So hey, subscribe to This Guy Sucked in your podcast app. New episodes every Thursday. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, therapy can really feel like a big investment. It costs a lot of money. I have had many times in my life where I've had to stop going to therapy because I can't afford it, even though I've kind of particularly needed to go. And that is terrible. It should feel accessible. Therapy shouldn't be something you have to pay for at all, in my opinion, should be paid for by the state in a socialist future. But anyway, if you are looking for a more affordable way to access therapy, if you can't pay the $100 to $300 per session that therapy traditionally costs, BetterHelp is a really useful tool that I want you to know about. You pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, saving you big on cost and time. So if you have to access therapy online, if you need maybe unusual hours that other therapists can't make room for, or if just the affordability of paying one price every month makes sense to you and makes therapy accessible to you, I want you to know about Better Help. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served 5 million people globally. Your well being is worth it, folks. Visit betterhelp.com/spirits today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterHELP.com/spirits. And now back to the show.
[theme]
Julia: Now, Amanda, since this is an episode mainly about beginnings of stories, it made sense to me that we serve an aperitif cocktail for our drink this episode.
Amanda: I love it, Julia. And, you know, sometimes I think about the practice of a cocktail hour, and I think, God, people knew how to live back then. because the idea of, just like, having a nice cocktail, aperitif, little shrub, little Seltzer, special, little drink, as you like, I don't know, stop sweating from cooking all day. And like, chill out and hang out with your guests before the meal, I love that.
Julia: I love that too. For people who I'm realizing I'm saying aperitif, maybe not everyone knows what that is. It's basically a cocktail that is served before dinner, not only to, like, let the chef calm down for a second, but also to prepare the stomach for food, and also to, like, open up your palate to what you're about to be having for dinner. It's like, it's basically a cocktail that, what's the appetite, you know?
Amanda: Incredible.
Julia: And they're usually very simple cocktails. Usually they're only a couple of ingredients. It usually has a bitter element that is going to, like, get your appetite going. If it's too sweet, you won't want to eat any food. So the bitter element kind of is like, oh yeah, fill my— fill my tummy up with something.
Amanda: And if you are thinking about the sort of like, you know, hot girl, Negroni Aperol, Spritz Prosecco situation, this is exactly where we get that from.
Julia: Exactly, exactly. And my favorite, and perhaps the most traditional of the aperitif is, of course, the Negroni. It is iconic. It is a little funky. I love a Negroni. There's a bunch of different twists on Negronis. You can do, you can do a white Negroni, you can do a black Negroni. There's coffee Negronis. There's Tiki Negronis out there. But typically the original recipe is equal parts campari, gin, sweet vermouth. Done.
Amanda: I'm not the hugest Campari fan in the world, but listen, I'm gonna turn one down.
Julia: It's also really interesting because Campari was originally designed to be like a sipping aperitif specifically. And also a D chest thief. It's basically like alcohols that you drink before and after a meal, and Campari is like number one. But I like it. I like the like bitter funkiness that it all kind of blends together. And it's one of those cocktails that also transforms a little as you like sip on it, as the ice kind of melts a little, it transforms the cocktail into different flavor profiles. And it's very cool.
Amanda: Delish.
Julia: So we have our Negronis in hand. Amanda, I'll make you one little twist maybe that doesn't have Campari, but—
Amanda: Thanks, darling.
Julia: As we continue with more beginnings, the next one that I want to mention is one that is a common Arabic opening, which is, there was and there was not.
Amanda: That's it?
Julia: That's it.
Amanda: We stop there?
Julia: It will—then you tell the story. So you'd be like, there was and there was not a king, and the king lived in a castle, you know?
Amanda: Oh, man. No one tells stories like Arabs, man. Oh, my God.
Julia: Well, what's interesting too, Amanda is this is not just an Arabic phrase, but you can also find it in Farsi, in Maltese, in Romanian. And there is a version in Romanian in particular that I really like, which is there once was as never before, because if there wasn't, it wouldn't have been told.
Amanda: Hey. It's like, what do you want? Why am I telling this if it was not happening maybe somewhere, at some point.
Julia: Exactly. And I really love all of these because it really captures the sort of nebulous feeling of storytelling. The liminal space of storytelling, right? This is a story that exists because the story is being told. These characters are in this moment, living and breathing and experiencing joy and sorrow and pain and love. But it also reminds the listener at the beginning of the story. This is just a story. This is just a story. It could be true. It could not be true. Who can say really?
Amanda: And—and we're doing it anyway. And, like, take meaning anyway. And Julia, maybe it's because we have spent so much of our lives in the prestige TV era where, like, I remember my parents watching The Sopranos and Twin Peaks on HBO. Lost started when we started middle school, stopped when we finished high school. And we have seen the sort of like the re— you know, like pre-stigification of TV happening over the last several years in particular. It really makes me have so much less patience for the people that are, like, obsessed with plot analysis online, which, again, I was raised in the Lost era. I definitely understand the appeal of something like that, of screenshotting a show and like noticing all the little details. But it's also not the point. And I think when a show hits, for me, there's deeper meaning beyond just putting those clues together. And it reminds me that, you know, everything we do for entertainment is from such a long, I don't know, lineage of transmitting meaning to each other in a way that heightens feeling and sometimes, often, most of the time, I would argue it's the ambiguity and the implication and the liminality that really makes me think about something days and months and years after I hear it.
Julia: Right? And there's a universality to that, right? So when I say to you, yeah, this is an Arabic phrase, but it's also found in Romanian and Farsi and Maltese. There's kind of like a reason behind that. And the reason that this is like such a crossover for so many cultures is according to Dr. Lucia Sorbero, who is the chair of the Arabic Language and Cultures Department at the University of Sydney. Quote, “borders are a very recent invention historically, there was a big network of scholars, poets and especially intellectuals, who were traveling from court to court to make a life. This allowed the circulation of knowledge and language.” And including, in our case, stories, right? So there is this really interesting cultural exchange between Asia and North Africa and Europe and the Middle East that is happening during like the 12th to 16th centuries, that as a result, we see this kind of spread of these formulaic beginnings and endings to stories, but also we, we've talked about this in previous episodes. The similarity in the spread of the fairy tale tropes, right? Like, we can find a story in North Africa that was also told in Germany, just the specifics are changed, you know? But I think this is a really cool that like, it's not only the stories that are being exchanged, but the way that they're being introduced. I think that is a fascinating little tidbit there.
Amanda: Totally.
Julia: There's also an interesting category of what I will call, like the comedic, absurd introduction.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: Now keep in mind, a lot of these stories are designed for the younger generations. You would tell them to younger children, someone who is older is the one telling the story, passing down these stories. So with these sort of absurd introductions, they are something that like, make you pause or say, like, huh, or like, draw you in by making you laugh, right? These are the ones that make it clear that the story is also like—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —not taking place in the place that it is being told, right? So I mentioned earlier one of my favorites, which is the Korean introduction of once in the old days when Tigers smoked tobacco, dot, dot, dot.
Amanda: And the toddler would be like tigers don't smoke tobacco. I could imagine me being like, once upon a time when all fish wore hats, and they'd be like, what?
Julia: There's one where it's like once in a land where everyone had noses. And I'm like, that's everywhere.
Amanda: Everyone.
Julia: There's a great one from Kazakhstan, where it starts a long, long time ago when goats had feathers.
Amanda: Which, listen, whether I'm a toddler or I'm right now, I'm like, tell me more.
Julia: Yeah. The direct translation is when goats wool was gray, but the like implied translation is when they had feathers, which I think is really cute.
Amanda: Amazing.
Julia: There is a Turkish one, which is great because it's quite long, and it also really captures the essence of trying to tell like a fantastical story. So it starts once there was and once there wasn't. In the long distant days of your when haystacks winnowed sieves, when genies played Jareed in the old bathhouse, when fleas were barbers, when camels were town criers, and when I softly rocked my baby grandmother to sleep in her creaking cradle, there lived an exotic land far, far away.
Amanda: Incredible. Incredible. And I'm just picturing me as a kid being like a grandma was once a baby, like what?
Julia: You were rocking your own grandmother, how?
Amanda: Incredible.
Julia: It's a lot of, like, really fun wordplay in the original Turkish. A lot of it rhymes. I can't really capture that in the English translation, unfortunately. And it's just like all these, like, surprising and bizarre things that are laid out into this intro, which are all meant to draw the listener in, to show them how fantastical the story is going to be. It's all about, as we talked about, kind of with theater, suspending our disbelief in a way, preparing the audience to be like, okay, now we're in some place different, someplace new. Now we've talked a lot about getting the audience ready for a story, but as important as setting the right mood for the story is, I think the ending is just as important.
Amanda: Julia, have you ever been telling a story at a party and then people are like, uh huh, and then you're like, that. That's it, that's the story.
Julia: The end.
Amanda: Nothing worse. Nothing worse.
Julia: Amanda, what is our traditional fairy tale story ending in English?
Amanda: It is, and they lived happily ever after.
Julia: Yes. Sometimes even it is the end, but that is our traditional one. And I will say it gets the point across, right? The story has ended because there is no more conflict to be featured in the story. But there are some really great endings to stories. Some reflect the people in the story. Some reflected the storyteller and their place in the world. Some call on listeners to bring the story into the world. Some are variations on our happily ever after. For example, there is they lived happily and had many children, or they lived happily until the end of their lives. They're very common ones found across the world, right? However, one of my favorite variations on this which can be found in various European cultures, is and if they have not yet died, they still live there to this day.
Amanda: Very good.
Julia: Beautiful. I love that ending so much.
Amanda: And I—I also love the acknowledgement of death and that. Living happily until your life is over is kind of all of us could possibly ask for, you know?
Julia: Yeah. Exactly. And I really like this one in particular, because it gives a sort of hope, almost in a way, but also an ambiguity. It's like, who knows if they're still alive. But it is possible that they are still alive and they are still happy, and we can all hope for that, right? That we're all still alive. We're all still happy. Another version of the tale that ties the storyteller directly to the story, the ending is very important in that regard. Which is basically like giving a reason as to why they might be the one telling this story, specifically. Like why they even know about it in the first place, right? There's several different versions from Baltic countries such as Lithuania, where they claim to have, like, been at the festivities following the story. Oftentimes it's at a wedding. So for example, and I was there, drank some mead ale dribbled through my beard, but not in my mouth.
Amanda: Oh, oh. Okay. You know, lovingly, from one person who, you know, enjoys an occasional beverage to another, if, if the bev is not making it into the mouth, time to switch to water. That's— that's all I'm gonna say.
Julia: There is a Russian version of that that expands a little further and like, tells why? Like, oh, we're things are running down our beard. So it is, I drank mead and wine, it ran down my mustache, but did not go into my mouth, yet my soul was drunk, and [41:29]
Amanda: There you go. You ever have a party so good a hang, so good that you're just like, I don't—I don't need any substances. This is just like, oh man, this is— I'm—I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it.
Julia: Yeah. I think you'll like this one, Amanda, which is another version of the same Russian story, which is, I dined and drank mead with them, and their cabbage was toothsome, even now I could eat some.
Amanda: Ooh, baby, give me some toothsome ca—any cuisine with a toothsome cabbage, you know, I'm there.
Julia: I know. I know you're a cabbage girly now.
Amanda: I'm cabbage girly on by blood and by choice Julia. German, Irish, Jewish cabbage all the way down.
Julia: Well, speaking of Irish, I have probably one of the funniest endings in that version, which is an Irish ending that says they went by the first and I went by the stepping stones. They were drowned and I survived. They gave me nothing but paper shoes and fat milk. It's like, that's why I'm telling the story about them, because they gave me nothing and they're dead, but I'm still alive.
Amanda: Nothing more Irish, seriously, than, like, yeah, that fucker is dead, and I'm here now. What more you want?
Julia: So I mean, it means drowning. We already know it's Irish. It mentions drowning.
Amanda: And then, I mean, I think also in the in the Irish sense, it sort of implies that you should buy the storyteller a drink afterwards, so that doesn't hurt.
Julia: So some stories simply tell the audience that the story is finished, but in, like, kind of a fun way. So in Afrikaans, it is whistle, whistle, the story is done. Or in classic Arabic, it is Tuta. Tuta, the story is done. Tuta means Berry, but it doesn't like I think it's just a fun thing to say at the end.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: In Hungarian it is said, this is the end, run away with it.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: Encouraging the listener to take the story with them.
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: In the Szechuan area in China, their endings translate to my story has finished, was that fun?
Amanda: Yay. It's so very fun. Thank you.
Julia: It's so earnest. It's so earnest. I love it so much. And then I also love this Persian version, which is this book has come to an end, but the story yet remains. Or alternatively, our tale has come to an end, but the crow hasn't arrived at his house.
Amanda: Still flying, still carrying it.
Julia: It could be there any day. Who knows. Now, there is, of course, comedic endings as well. Much like our comedic beginnings, some of my favorites are ones like the Swedish Snip Snap snout. Thus the story ends, rhymes in Swedish.
Amanda: I have a sense that things that are fun to say is sort of a through line that we're going to experience here, like pip, pip.
Julia: Pip, pip. Or there is the Faroese, snip, snap, snout, then the story was out.
Amanda: I mean, no notes?
Julia: Yeah. In Bengali, there is my story ends and the spinach is eaten by the goat.
Amanda: I mean, inevitably.
Julia: It's basically like, it's a phrase meaning that, like something is irreversible. Meaning like this, the ending is now complete to the story, and the story cannot continue. Yeah.
Amanda: We out, baby. We are out. And if I know anything about goats, they're going to eat a tender green.
Julia: In Catalon, sometimes they say they were happy and they ate candies. But funnier to me is, here's a cat, here's a dog, this tail is already melted, and here's a dog and here's a cat, this tale is finished.
Amanda: Shout out Catalan, what a— what a weird parentheses, appreciative place in language and people in history.
Julia: Incredible. Yeah, the Dutch for some odd reason, say, and then came an elephant with a very long snout and blew the story out.
Amanda: I mean, cute.
Julia: Another animal related one comes from Iceland, where stories and a cat in the bog put up his tail. And there ends the fairy tale, or another version, cat in the swamp lifted its tail, the adventure is finished.
Amanda: Why are there so many cats in swamps?
Julia: I don't know. I don't know. Now, this one leaves me absolutely dead. It is from the Sicilians.
Amanda: Oh, well, okay, I'm gonna kind of get ready. Alright.
Julia: They lived happily ever after. And here we sit without a cent. Or they lived happily and content, and we have nothing to pay the rent. Fucking hilarious.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: It was the most Italian bullshit I've ever heard, where they're like, oh yeah, good for them. Meanwhile, we're fucking dying out here.
Amanda: I—Julia. It was gonna be that, or like, and I bet he called his mother, huh? Yeah, incredible, incredible.
Julia: It's really good, huh?
Amanda: Oh, sometimes— sometimes, cultural, culture, and you'll love to see it.
Julia: We do. We'd love to see it. And then Amanda, finally, there are stories that are the ones that honor both the storyteller and the listener. And it kind of makes sense for us to end the episode with them. So there is an Ethiopian ending to a tale that is very simple. It's either like, pay the storyteller for their story, which is, return my story and feed me bread, which can be taken literally, but it's also a way of saying, tell me a story now that I've told you one, which beautiful. Yeah, you know the— I think storytelling is a very sort of give and take situation, not only in the terms of storyteller and listener, but also think of all the parties you've been to where someone tells a story and the next person is, like, I—that reminds me of a story that I have to tell you, and you kind of continue on, and that's basically the whole night, right?
Amanda: That's it, like, that's, I don't know, that's, that's life to me, that's— that's the purpose of it all, is to, you know, share something that inspires someone else to do the same. And when that happens at a party or a story circle or just a gathering, or just seeing someone on the street where, like, you make eye contact, you see something wild, and then someone's like, in 1970 let me tell you, this wouldn't have flown. Like, I just—that's it—that's, that's life.
Julia: I know, right? And it continues with these kind of beautiful the give and take of storytelling, right? The Kurdish ending to stories is also really beautiful. And I think it really sums up the way that storytelling feels when you truly love it. Which is, my story went to other homes. God bless the mothers and fathers of its listeners. Right?
Amanda: Right. Yes.
Julia: And then finally, this Turkish ending, I think is truly gorgeous. There's two different versions of it. So it starts with, lastly, three apples fell from the sky, one for those who know to keep their inner child alive. One for those who know to listen and think before they act, and one for those who never lose the love and hope within their souls. And with that, they all achieve their heart's desires. Now let us step up and settle into their thrones.
Amanda: Oh, stop, that's so sweet.
Julia: And then a slightly shorter alternative version to that, which is three apples fell from the sky. One for our story's heroes, one for the person who told the tale, and one for those who listened and promised to share. Now this episode really has me thinking a lot about storytelling. And of course, if you have a favorite way stories begin and end, I want to hear about it. Send us an email. Go to spiritspodcast.com/contact or you can email us at spiritspodcast@gmail.com. I want to hear all your stories and how they're told.
Amanda: Julia, I am so honored that this gets to be our job for so many reasons, both because being an active listener for you is a pleasure. I end these recordings wanting to learn more, read more, go down the citation rabbit hole, and make stuff of my own. But also because it's not just us. There are people listening. I'm thinking about what they are going to be thinking and feeling, and reacting. And we have their the absolute gift of their time and attention. And so when they pay it forward and pay it back with sending us their food superstitions and their wholesome childhood memories and their story beginnings and endings, it's— it makes it even bigger than the sum of our parts. And it makes it more than words shared over an hour, than a podcast recorded, thana few kilobytes of data set over the internet. It becomes something much, much bigger. And I don't know, I don't know how to end that sentence. But hopefully there are some apples waiting for me on the other side.
Julia: Yeah. Well, Amanda, I want to leave us, rather than with an ending, with another story beginning, and this time it's in German, and it starts back in the days when it was still of help to wish for a thing.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: And I think listeners, these are the days where you can still wish for things. And I hope that the next time you hear the phrase, once upon a time, or someone begins to tell you a story, remember, stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.
Julia: Later, satyrs!