The Char Man of Ojai w/ Jess from WTF Is That Podcast
/What happens when the very real fear of wildfires meet folklore and urban legends? You get something like The Char Man of Ojai. We’re joined by Jess from WTF Is That Podcast to talk about this prescient urban legend, why cryptids love bridges, and why shouting for help in the woods is a bad idea!
Places you can donate: Mutual Aid LA Network, Fire Aid, California Federation of Labor Unions
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of fire, the California wildfires, death, ableism, grief, child death, skinning/flaying, animal attacks, climate change, natural disasters, nuclear attacks, and drowning.
Guest
Jess is a podcaster, storyteller, and Gemini who loves a good fun fact. She hosts So That’s How That Happened, a gossipy history podcast, and co-hosts WTF Is That Podcast, a spooky true crime and paranormal show. When she’s not deep in research, she’s busy being a mom of three and sharing her journey as a working mom building a business.
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
[theme]
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm
Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this week, we are joined by listener and special guest, Jess Mosley. Jess, welcome to the show.
Jess: Hi. Thank you so much for having me on.
Julia: It's our delight and privilege.
Amanda: Will you tell our listeners what you do and maybe, WTF Is That Podcast?
Jess: Yeah. So I have a podcast called WTF Is That Podcast? We talk about everything kind of weird and spooky and true crimey in the world. So if you like all of those weird things, that's definitely the place to go. And then I have a new podcast coming out in the beginning of March that talks about everything that's like, gossipy and history. So if you're like, yeah, whatever happened to like the boys in the tower? And it's like, oh, I have all of the hot family gosp about all of that. And so that's coming out in the beginning of March.
Julia: I am a low key, gossipy bitch and also a big key history nerd. So I think that is, like the perfect combination of things for me, personally. And then if our listeners are listening to this show, obviously they like creepy things, so they should check out WTF Is That Podcast?
Jess: Oh yeah. It's a great time. All of it's good. I co-host, WTF is that with my best friend of like, 15 years and then, so that's how that happened. Is just me going on, spilling all the tea and gossip. It's so much fun.
Amanda: It sounds amazing. And I know you brought to us today some really, like, topical and urgent and folkloric stuff to discuss. So tell us, what are we doing here today?
Jess: Yeah. So today we're going to be talking about a lesser known legend, but it's called the Char Man of Ojai, which is as terrifying as it sounds.
Julia: Yep, yep. I don't — I'm not a big fan of fire related things in general, except for Freddy Krueger. But obviously that is a different thing for me personally to have to work through.
Jess: Well, unfortunately, with living in California, that's just kind of like all the time. It'll be like, rainy season, other places will be like, oh yeah, it's fire season, don't worry about it. Everything will just catch on fire for a while. It'll be fine.
Julia: Yeah, yeah. Shout out to our friends who I know in California are having a rough go of it, recovering from the fires that really devastated Los Angeles. We'll talk a little bit more about it towards the end of the episode, and how — if you're not one of those people, you can help. But just get us — get us started.I'm so curious to hear more about this.
Jess: Yeah, of course. So Ojai is this little tiny town. It's in a valley near the ocean. It's like an influencers, kind of retreat area. It's where all the people go from LA who have money, they go up to Ojai. So that way they have the scenic views and a little more privacy. But because of that, with it being such a small community, this legend kind of came out of it. So there are three kind of theories of who the Char Man is. There's no like set in stone. This is where it came from. Here's the story, because we all know stories get told over and over again. People make things up, they add things. So here's the kind of gist of it.
Julia: Okay.
Jess: So the fires in 1940 are kind of where all of these started. The first one is the grieving husband story. The idea is that him and his wife were in the house. They didn't want to evacuate until the very last minute, because it's their — their family home. They raised their kids there, so they want to stay in as long as possible. Finally, the fire comes up. It comes in too hot and heavy, and the house gets demolished, the wife ends up dying, and then the husband is just there by himself. All these burns on him trying to get his wife out, and he's just roaming the countryside grieving his home and his wife.
Julia: I'm already starting to see the shape of a lot of different folkloric creatures and figures that we talked about on the show. I think often grief is such a great motivating factor in terms of story, not in real life. But grief is often a great motivating factor for a otherworldly creature, other worldly spirit, because it is something that is a very universal and very strong emotion. And as we love to talk about on the show, a lot of ghosts are just like imprints of memories, kind of reliving over and over and over again. And so to have such a traumatic moment that makes so much sense for it to be a thing that you just are constantly dealing with and refilling and over and over and over again.
Amanda: A little bit unusual though, for to be a husband and not a wife though, Julia. I feel like when I think of a, you know, grieving spouse, it's often a mom who is, you know, walking around the countryside, you know, wailing or lamenting. And so I don't know why, but I was like, oh, it's a man like, that's somewhat unusual.
Julia: You begin to lie your own as types, right, Amanda?
Amanda: Exactly. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah.
Jess: Yeah. That's always my immediate thought with these. I was looking at it too. And like, all of the things are men, all of the theories have to do with men. And I was like, oh, alright, that's cool.
Amanda: Okay.
Jess: That's a change up a little bit.
Amanda: Men can and should deal with grief like it's, you know, toxic masculinity is oppressing them too.
Jess: So then, in the same vein of, kind of getting trapped in the fire, we then have the firefighter who had gone mad, so he had just gone into the forest to fight the fires, just saw so much devastation, so many people passing away, that he just went crazy, took off his stuff, ran into the fire, became the Char Man, that way.
Julia: Interesting.
Jess: Which is — and, yeah, interesting because I'm like, once we get into, like, the ways that people see the Char Man, I'm like, I don't see how he'd really tie into that, but it's a thing people say.
Julia: You know, what's interesting too. This is another like, hey, it would be great if men could, like, deal with their — their grief and their trauma in very productive ways, instead of, you know, becoming literal monsters. So maybe.
Amanda: Let's — let's support everybody in thinking and feeling through our feelings. And again, my brother is a firefighter like I, you know, very real to have, like, PTSD trauma, you know, all kinds of things that — that first responders see and have to deal with. But I am very intrigued. Like, I feel like I've never heard something similar to this, where it is somebody who is there to take care of the disaster that ends up sort of, you know, defecting or becoming monstrous.
Jess: Yeah. Which I can also see, though, because there's so much devastation that goes on. And I think people, when they hear, oh, it's a fire going on, they think, oh, you just put water on it, it's gone in a day. No, it's a multi day process. I was even listening to the fire chief be like, yeah, once we get it contained, it'll be a week. It'll probably be like week and a half, two weeks from there, just to get everything cleaned up. And that's just to get it to the point where everything's not like ash and smoldering. Which is an insane thing to even think about. All these people having to take care of that, and then the firefighters also having to deal with that, being away from home, because a lot of the time they are taken from Northern California and brought down to Southern California right now for the fires. So it's just a whole crazy thing of having to deal with what's going on there, being away from home, everything that goes into that.
Julia: Yeah.
Jess: So then, along with the not wanting to leave the house, there's another version that's a father and a son. And I left it for the end, because it's the most gruesome of all of them.
Julia: Oh, fun.
Jess: Yeah.
Amanda: It's a tasting menu of tragedy, that's what you can expect here on Spirits podcast.
Julia: That's a great turn of phrase run down, to go and tell it right now.
Amanda: Thank you.
Jess: Just a little charcuterie board of trauma, you got to pick whatever one you want. So in this one, father and son are living at home. Same kind of idea with the husband and wife. They wanted to stay at the house. It got to be too late. And then in some stories, it's the father who survived, some stories, it's the son who survived. But essentially, what they then do, for whatever reason, is they skin the other one and, like, hang it up, and then start running into the forest from there. And I'm like, I don't know why we needed to add the skinning part to it, but it's interesting.
Julia: That does feel like a choice, certainly in terms of storytelling purposes. Also in trying to figure out why realistically, someone would do that, also seems like a choice.
Amanda: Is there something here about, like disaster, kind of unlocking a monstrous desire within us. Like, do you think that might be some of the intrigue or the fear here that almost like a — like a purge situation? I'm laughing because it's like a little bit, you know, horrifying to me that you know when — when the rules are off, then people will, you know, do things or show themselves to be — I don't know, like, the impulses that they would otherwise hide, because society has sort of like been ripped away by disaster.
Jess: I can see that. My brain also went the other way of, if the father survived, like having the guilt of, oh, my child's skin now looks like this and is dead because I didn't get us out in time. So then, like, the weird brain flip to go, let me take off the skin that is now burnt from what I did —
Amanda: Sure.
Jess: — to then give you, like, a new sense of life, and then go off and live my grief in the forest.
Julia: That was kind of a thought that was starting to form in my head. I'm like, oh, get rid of the evidence of your own guilt, I guess? To maybe to purify or to cleanse —
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: — this sort of idea. Huh.
Amanda: Yeah, or for preparing, you know- - you know, the afterlife of whatever form you believe in. But damn, I — I did not expect that. Did not expect skinning.
Julia: No.
Jess: Yeah and it kept coming up, like, again and again. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm just gonna save this for the end I think because that was a lot.
Julia: Whoever added that detail. Someone really liked the idea of, like, well, we have to include the skin.
Amanda: I gotta say, of like, of all medical stuff, it is burns that really, like, icks me in a visceral way. And so I see the logic here, that there is something around like, the, you know about burning and skin, you know, etc, etc, that makes a certain kind of sense. But I'm just going to go ahead and stop myself from thinking too far about the details.
Jess: I totally feel that.
Julia: That's fair.
Jess: So now that we kind of talked about who the Char Man possibly is in this story, let's talk about people who may have encountered him out in the wild.
Amanda: Okay.
Jess: So all of these encounters happen in Ojai, in a very specific spot called the Creek Road.
Julia: Okay.
Jess: And I've read Encounters Of these, like people first hand writing them, and it always happens on this road by this bridge. I'm not sure what's up with these weird cryptids and bridges. I immediately think, Bunny Man bridge.
Julia: Well, Amanda loves to talk about the liminal space. And what is a bridge, if not a very liminal space that you can go over, you can go under, you can create this kind of like passageway that does not exist anywhere else on the road. I think that has to be something to do with it.
Amanda: Yeah, there are shadows. There's a place to hide. I think they are just inherently and, you know, depending on how tall it is, it could be a site where people may have or may threaten to jump. So there's just, like, a lot of — of like precipice there, which I think leads to a good setting for horror.
Julia: Also, considering how long, like the tunnel underneath the bridge is, I'm assuming this is one, you know, you can drive over it, and then there's cars that are driving under it, sort of thing. But the idea of the danger of being underground and the threat of a collapse, or something like that. A bridge is kind of this scary potential thing.
Jess: You're over, you can't see anything below you. It's a whole and this area, especially while it is near the beach, it is very like densely wooded. So, like, you drive down, there's just trees on either side, which already gives the image of like something running through the trees is gonna get me and trying to come to terms with that. So there's just so many spooky things all playing around this one road and this one bridge. So the first one is that drivers will see the Char Man emerging from the shadows and charging at their cars. One person said that the Char Man had come slapped the hood of their car. They saw a burn mark on there that was then gone within hours.
Amanda: Very localized version of the ghost handprint, the flower handprint, the, you know, snow handprint, all these things we talked about before.
Julia: I don't like that.
Jess: Yeah, and it all talked about his inhuman speed. And I'm sorry if I can't outrun something, it's a no for me. I can't — no, I'm not doing it.
Amanda: Yes, especially when we're thinking and talking about fire, which can move in such human eyes, unpredictable and unnatural ways.
Jess: Oh, I didn't even think about that, Amanda, yes.
Julia: If my car is struggling to outrun it even worse, actually.
Jess: There's also the story of campers that are camping near the Ojai woods that will just hear blood curdling screams and the smell of burning flesh, which is such a specific smell. So to be like, oh, it smelled like burning flesh. I'm like, oh, okay.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Flat, no, from me. Flat, no. Never gonna catch me outside four walls of a dwelling to sleep.
Jess: Yeah.
Julia: So first off, camping immediately scary and spooky, just as a rule of thumb, screaming in the woods, also kind of a classic. A lot of different birds and animals kind of have calls at night that sound particularly spooky, and sometimes like screaming. This is a complete aside. I was in Florida visiting my mother, and she was telling us a story about how she was like, yeah, I heard screaming in the middle of the night, and then, like, something banging against my house. And when I went out the next day, it looked like, you know, a rabbit had tried to crawl into my gutters, and a coyote got to it. And I said, mom, what?
Amanda: Diane?!
Jess: Oh my gosh!
Amanda: That's just not a fun anecdote.
Julia: And she's like, so a guy's gonna come over and put some gates on my— my gutters. And I said, cool, mom. And then while Jake and I were brushing our teeth, all of a sudden I hear what sounds like a woman screaming outside, and I said, oh no, the coyotes back. So if that's an experience you've had before, even not camping, it's scary.
Amanda: I was gonna say, get in touch, because I think let's compare our unearthly middle of the night screams.
Jess: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely not. My partner wants to go camping so bad and take our children. And I'm like, how about you guys go camping and I will stay at a cabin nearby. And then when you guys don't want to camp anymore, you can come stay with me at the cabin. I think that's a win- win.
Amanda: As a kid, we would camp in the backyard of our like, 20 foot by 10 foot, like suburban, you know, patch of grass. And looking back, incredible hack mom and dad. Incredible.
Jess: There you go.
Amanda: Good job. We used the bathroom inside and then slept outside.
Jess: And they got to sleep in their own beds, which is great for that.
Amanda: They sure did.
Julia: There we go. Perfect.
Jess: Yeah.
Julia: And then the last one, the note on the burning flesh. My immediate thought was like, oh, someone's barbecuing. But like, when you add the, like, burnt hair scent into that.
Amanda: You can't mix them up.
Julia: You can't mix those two things up, for sure.
Amanda: And this is an incredible like, specter of natural disaster. Like I — I feel like this is among very, very few examples I've heard of like a reminder that the earthquake, tornado, hurricane, wildfire, you know, natural disaster could strike at any moment. Like smelling that burning, you know, hearing the echoes. Of course, a place that is sort of subject to repeated instances of like, a mass destructive event would have some echoes of that in my mind.
Julia: Yeah.
Jess: And definitely. So the other thing with this camping story that makes it just a little more off kilter, where people are like, yeah, it could be a coyote, it could be someone barbecuing. Is that then the tents had slashed pieces on them, and there was burnt spots on the ground around the tent.
Julia: Oh, no.
Jess: Yeah. So either it's a real elaborate prank, because who would go that far, or you got to see the Charm Man right there.
Julia: Unfortunately, my investigate instinct tells me, in the light of day, I probably would have tried to follow the burnt, I'm assuming they were like, footprints?
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: And see where it came from/where it went.
Amanda: Julia, for once, I'm on your side when it comes to investigate versus ignore, because I think that it's very important if you're camping somewhere, to know if there is something burning nearby. Or if your campfire is not contained, like those are all things you have to be really conscious of.
Julia: Fair, fair. But also the walking away, I'd be like, hmm.
Jess: Yeah. We should probably make sure that somebody's okay. Nothing else is going on.
Julia: Yeah.
Jess: And everything else.
Julia: Yep.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. Like, in a real, like, kind of classic retelling of that, I would add an additional step to that story, being like, and we followed the footprints, and we found a burnt tent nearby, and someone else died, but we survived for whatever reason, because we're good and we didn't drink or whatever or have premarital sex. I don't know.
Jess: You always gotta turn it.
Amanda: Whatever virtue is being policed right now.
Julia: Yeah, exactly.
Jess: Always got to turn it on the kids, make it a good story, like, stay in bed, don't go out at night. So then now going back to the bridge, this is the main one that people do. This is like, I feel like every legend has a thing for teenagers to do, just a quirky thing when they don't want to do anything else. So on the bridge, teenagers will go out there. You're supposed to scream help me, three times, and then from there, Char Man is supposed to come. And I don't know, help you? I don't know also. Take you? But there has been sightings of people calling out, help me three times and seeing somebody coming in the woods or starting to chase them.
Amanda: Yikes.
Julia: So I'm curious if, like, the point of that is supposed to be, oh, you're making the Char Man think that you are, either, if we're going with the fireman story, a victim of a fire, or you're trying to trick him into thinking that you're the son/father/wife?
Jess: Either way is messed up.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: That's bad. That's me, in fact, I would say.
Jess: Teenagers, I —
Julia: Not thinking through their actions at all.
Jess: They're just like, oh, yeah, this fun thing that we do. No, don't do that. That's not a fun thing to do.
Julia: Also, like, what if there's just a guy that lives in that area who's constantly hearing teenagers scream, help me, and just wants to do a nice thing.
Amanda: No.
Julia: A good Samaritan.
Amanda: The poor guy.
Julia: Oh God.
Amanda: Twice a week, he's like, oh, no. I mean, I gotta check it out.
Julia: Do they actually need help, or do I just need to, like, put up a sign saying, like, please don't do this.
Jess: So the worst part of that is that, apparently, at one point, there was a man who was living in the forest by himself. He kept hearing this on the bridge, so he was going out walking his dog.
Julia: What did I say?
Jess: And the kids ran away. The worst part, though, is he lived alone in the forest because he had gotten in an accident and was a burn victim.
Julia: No.
Jess: And so-- so these kids saw him.
Amanda: Oh no.
Jess: He only walked his dog at night- - early in the morning, so people wouldn't see him. And these kids are out on the bridge yelling at night, and he's just there walking his dog, and they run away from him.
Julia: That poor man.
Jess: I'm like — I know he's just trying to live his life, walk his dog.
Amanda: Come on, people. We don't- - we don't have to other people who look and seem different to us.
Julia: We did the witch hunts. We don't need to do this anymore.
Amanda: As a society.
Jess: Yes.
Julia: We got it out of our system before we were even a country.
Amanda: Way to hunt fascists, not witches.
Jess: Yeah. So this poor guy, every time I think of it, I'm just like, oh, poor man. He just wanted to walk his dog. He just wanted to be a good boy, walk his dog, live in the woods.
Julia: I'm sure that also, like, helped to perpetuate the myth unfortunately, like that- - this poor man, who is just trying to live his own life in like, outside of society, is now being like, persecuted and had stories told about him when he's just like - -
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Just living.
Jess: And apparently, there was like, a whole police report behind it- -
Julia: Just doing his thing.
Jess: — because the kids were like, oh, he was chasing us, he was gonna attack us. And that's how they found the man in the woods to begin with.
Julia: Now, here's the thing is, the original story comes out of the 1940s. For this, like police report. What-- what time period are we looking at here?
Jess: I don't remember exactly. I want to say was like nine — late 1950s, early 1960s. So we would have made sense in the time frame.
Julia: Okay, okay. It wasn't like, this is 2002 and these kids are just, like, really, kind of making this man's life a living hell.
Jess: Yeah. No.
Julia: Gotcha.
Amanda: I wonder if there are also any like nuclear fears that are beginning to sort of percolate and bubble up. Obviously, you know, blistering burns a part of side effects to those kinds of incidents as well. And I wonder if in the, you know, sort of post World War Two, you know, cultural settling into this being another threat hanging over our heads, if that was conscious in people's minds at all.
Julia: That's a great point, Amanda.
Jess: Yeah, I'd be really interested to see if there was any other kind of urban legends that's like the Char Man but having to do with radioactive. Because I feel like these kind of stories just perpetuate again and again as people process the trauma and find a way to come together as a community and go,okay, here's what happened. It was bad, but it will tell stories about it, won't kind of move on from there.
Julia: Yeah. I know Japan in particular has a lot of like, later generation urban legends that do sort of center around fears regarding like, nuclear contamination and exposure to radiation and stuff like that. I bet if I, like, really dug into it, areas where we tested bombs in the 40s and 50s might have some myths around there. Oh, now I have a whole new rabbit hole to go down. Where's my pants?
Amanda: I think the long shadow of US imperialism absolutely includes urban legends like that.
Jess: Oh, 100%.
Julia: I just wrote that down for a future episode. Stay tuned, maybe. Jess, this is so fascinating, and you're really like opening my eyes up to a bunch of new thoughts on urban legends. But before we keep going, why don't we very quickly grab our refill.
Amanda: Let's do it.
[theme]
Amanda: Hey everybody, it's Amanda. Welcome to the refill. Welcome especially to our newest patron, Samantha. Thank you so much for supporting the show. If you want to be like Samantha, if you want me or Julia to read your name out on the podcast. You gotta join us over at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. There are lots of fabulous folks following us for free over there. Which you're totally welcome to do. We will post all of our announcements about live shows and merch and anything else that's coming up on Patreon for free. So it's a good way to stay in touch. But if you want things like printable recipe cards for every episode, directors commentary, bonus urban legends episodes each month, etc. You gotta become a paid member at patreon.com/spiritspodcast. And thank you, as always, to our supporting producer level patrons, Alicia Ann Hannah, Jane Lily, Matthew Rico Lake captain, Jonathan Molokai, Cosmos, Scott will and (Ah). And our legend level patrons, Audra Becks, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H, Sarah and Bea Me Up Scotty. Folks, a lot going on out there. Julia and I have been talking about it, connecting you to resources. Several of you in DC have reached out to me to be connected to some local organizers and events happening in your area. So we are always here to help you navigate how you can fight back and resist and protest and get the things you need to get done in this world advanced. Today, I'd really love to recommend that any of you who are in the US, check out your local chapter of the DSA. The Democratic socialists of America. This is the political party I belong to, and they also have a ton of incredible resources for free for anyone in the community to do things like fight for labor standards, help protect our immigrant neighbors, and learn about how we can try to make a society that is fair for all of us. So I would highly recommend it. There's always free events and friendly people willing to help you out. If you're in a union, especially you probably have a DSA Rep. So if you want any help in navigating that system, reach out to me. I have an email form. You can DM me on social media here for you. In Spirits news, we are looking for voice mails. Send us a voice mail. Call us at 617-420-2344, or if you're outside the US, you can just email a voice note to spiritspodcast@gmail.com. Ask us a question, tell us a quick spooky story. Encourage us to look something up, and then we're going to go ahead and do that. But we want to be building in more of your voice to the show, literally. So come on over. Send us a note. Just keep it to a minute or less. Alright? That's 617-420-2344, and that number is in the episode description of every episode of Spirits. It has been a very exciting couple of weeks over at Multitude. In part because Join the Party just finished their latest campaign. Our story, all about plant and bug people in the world of Verda Stello is finished, and now we are playing a bunch of one shot games. That means that we're making characters and setting up a world in a game that's like a Coen Brothers movie of all like assassins who are vying to see who is the traitor assassin. We just played yesterday, a game called Brindlewood Bay, where we all play grandmas who are in a murder mystery book club, but also they solve real murders. It is absolutely incredible. And we're basically gonna tour you through a bunch of different kinds of games, and then let you the audience listen and vote to see which one we play a full game of. So it's a great time to hop in. If you are new, to Join the Party. If you have never played a tabletop role playing game before, if you're like, hey, my friends are into D&D, my friends are into Monsterhearts. I don't really know what the deal is. Come on over. We're going to tell you everything you need to know and teach you how to play. That's Join the Party. Start listening now at jointhepartypod.com. We are sponsored this week by CRAMPED. A fabulous new podcast by Kate Helen Downey, that Multitude is lucky enough to be working on. Now, this show is all about period cramps, which 90% of menstruating people experience, and yet science knows absolutely nothing about it. Guys, I bet you can guess, mostly about sexism and misogyny and also misogynoir. There's so much going on. So Kate has decided to investigate her own 20 year medical mystery of severe period pain. Her cramps are absolutely severe, and yet she's never gotten a diagnosis or real treatment for it. So she's sitting down with doctors, researchers and other people that experience cramps to understand why. So by the end of the season, she gets a diagnosis, a treatment plan and a much clearer understanding of why so many people suffer without help. This is my favorite part of the show. Her tagline is, it turns out having a microphone gets her taken a lot more seriously than having a uterus. So check out CRAMPED in your podcast app now dropping every Tuesday this spring. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We often hear about the red flags that we should avoid in relationships, but we can also look for green flags in friends and partners. If you're not sure what that looks like, what you are looking for in other people, in relationships, whether romantic, platonic, whatever it might be, therapy can really help you identify that kind of stuff. Practice building them in your relationships and embodying that greed flag energy yourself. So if you are looking for a online, flexible way to access therapy, if you can't access it near you, if you can't afford it, near you, if you need therapy at hours that typically people don't keep. BetterHelp is a really good option to know about. They're fully online, serving over 5 million people worldwide, and have a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists. You can also easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. It just takes the click of a button. If you are not vibing with the person you match with, you can try somebody else for no extra cost. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/spirits today to get 10% off your first month. betterHELP.com/spirits. The Lit Hub Podcast is the new flagship podcast from lithub.com Every Friday host Drew Broussard is joined by Lit Hub staff writers and other special guests to chat about everything interesting, strange and wonderful happening in literary culture. Previous topics include, which new books you should check out in 2025. AI companies attempts to disrupt the publishing industry. And of course, Luigi Vangione's good read page. There is so much more in the Lit Hub podcast you should listen now. Go to lithub.com or subscribe to the Lit Hub Podcast wherever you listen to your pods. And now back to the show.
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Julia: We are back and Jess we love to ask our guests, hey, what have you been drinking lately? Whether that is cocktails or mocktails or coffee creations. What has been your drink of choice lately?
Jess: I've been all about an Espresso Martini recently. I have three kids, the youngest of which is four months right now, so I'm like, oh, a little cocktail that also gives me a little perk up to finish things. Great. Love it.
Julia: Yep, I love that.
Jess: And then my husband has been taking the- -just the regular Espresso Martinis and doing different things to them. So we have, like, cookie butter right now, like a cookie butter syrup. So a cookie butter Espresso Martini, so good, so good.
Amanda: So amazing.
Julia: I was gonna ask, what is your base for your Espresso Martini? Are you a vodka person? Do you prefer rum or I've seen tequila ones out there. Whiskey is also a very popular one.
Jess: I'm a vodka girl. I have also been experimenting doing an Espresso Martini with the screwball peanut butter whiskey.
Julia: Yeah.
Jess: That's been amazing, too. That with the cookie butter, so it's like a peanut butter cookie.
Amanda: You are blowing my mind.
Julia: You know it's winter, it's dessert time. I am here for it. I think the revitalization of the dessert cocktail is a real win for humanity, rather than a loss for society.
Amanda: Frankly.
Julia: Incredible. Well, Jess, I have so many more questions that I'm sure you're going to answer about the Ojai Char Man. Tell us more.
Jess: After going through all this, I was looking at different things, because again, with the whole bridge thing, my head went to Bunny Man bridge. I'm going to different places that have different legends to explain what's going on in their environment. And I'm like, okay, well, why do we start to create legends like this? Because it's such a specific thing to California. I'm sure if you had said a Char Man to anyone else in any other part of the country, they'd be like, what on earth are you talking about?
Amanda: Like us?
Julia: We simply hadn't heard of it until you suggested it as an episode. I also want to give a shout out to another bridge cryptid, Mothman.
Amanda: Love him.
Jess: Oh, yes.
Julia: We love Mothman, and we love his bridge.
Amanda: No, uh —
Julia: Well, we don't love his bridge. The bridge class would kill a lot of people.
Amanda: Love the legacy of his bridge in Mothman and his perk ass.
Julia: Perky.
Amanda: All of the suspension that the bridge lacked is present in mothman's butt.
Julia: If only the bridge had been as tight as mothman's butt.
Amanda: That's what I'm saying, Julia.
Jess: My co host on my podcast, gets so annoyed with me talking about Mothman all the time. I'm like, have you seen the statue of his butt though? Like —
Julia: Do you understand?
Jess: It's so firm. It's right there.
Amanda: I'm telling you now Jess, I am — I'm making it to that statue in the next, you know, year and a half, like Julia and I we're gonna make it happen.
Julia: That's our goal.
Jess: Oh, I love everything about that.
Julia: Everyone tag the Mothman festival that they want to see us there, so that when we eventually submit an application, they say, yes, of course, we've heard of you.
Amanda: I will Lysol the butt and then I will lick it for photos.
Jess: Ohh.
Julia: Ohh. Amanda, I'm holding you to that now. It's on tape.
Amanda: Girl, bet I'm gonna be there.
Jess: She'll pay you money to do it, actually.
Amanda: I mean, basically.
Julia: She wants to.
Jess: So getting back to why these legends kind of come out. The first thing I was kind of thinking was just environmental trauma. These wildfires happen again and again. It's again, a routine, reoccurring thing. We have a whole season in California that we just call fire season, where things just burn all the time. So if you're having to deal with this constant trauma to the land and having to live with that, people tend to process trauma by telling stories and grouping together. And then it's less of like, hey, let's talk about all the things we lost, and more of hey, let's talk about this story to distract ourselves while still holding space for it in our minds, in our heads and all of that.
Julia: Yeah, yeah. I think that definitely is something that you'll see in a lot of more modern community urban legends. As opposed to, like, you know, sort of more cyclical nature. So like, for example, I'm — we're finishing out our Egypt series and thinking about, like, the flooding of the Nile, not as a like disaster that happens every single year, but rather this thing that they know that cyclically happens and they rely on. And so when it is something that is, I don't know, maybe impacted from climate change or overpopulation in an area, or something like that, or like not listening to the original stewards of the land, that is going to be something that, as a society, they are not able to understand and to process, and so we have to process it through stories.
Jess: And it's like that again and again with other cultures too. Just, hey, why does the sun rise and set? Oh, well, we have a story for that. Why is there —
Julia: Of course.
Jess: — wind we have a story for that. So it's very much just how humans, as a culture and as a species have just kind of processed things for years, and it's just a more modern version of that.
Julia: Right. Answering the questions that were like, we don't really understand it, so we have to create a story where we do understand it.
Jess: Yeah. It's like the whole concept. You have to laugh about it so you don't cry about it. The same type of idea.
Julia: Wow, a fresh and feeling in the current days, but yeah.
Jess: So then there's the whole idea of just cultural storytelling in general, which we kind of touched on people telling these stories that are passed down through generations. So even though the story might have started in the 40s, it's still something that people talk about. So whether you go to, like, summer camp or that sort of thing, or like we were talking about earlier, parents can make it as a way of, hey, we're going to talk about fire safety, and we're going to use the charm in as an example of that. So just a way to show your children, hey, here's a safe way to act, and here is a story of a consequence that could happen if you were not safe around fires or wildfires or any thing involving heat in general.
Julia: Yeah. Like, quite literally, a boogeyman in this regard, or like any of the water spirit stories so that we would try to avoid having children drown.
Jess: Oh, yeah, definitely. And I've made up stories to tell my five year old where she's like, well, why can't I do that? And I'm like, well, you know, there's like, a special snake that lives under the ground, so you can't go digging there. Or the other thing I do is they are — they're five and four right now. And it's at the peak just picking up rock stage.
Julia: Yep.
Jess: So if they go to pick up a rock that's like in somebody's flower bed, we don't want to disrupt their stuff. So I go, oh, no, no, no, we can't pick up those rocks, they're working rocks. They have a job to do, so we have to leave those rocks. We can go pick up rocks at the park, but those are working rocks.
Amanda: Jess, so cute!
Julia: I love that.
Amanda: That's so cute.
Julia: You've almost reinvented Shintoism, which I'm kind of into. I know that probably doesn't work for you to explain the entire practice of Shintoism to your four and five year old, but I do like that quite a bit.
Amanda: That's a very useful distinction.
Julia: Yeah, we've often had conversations about what I call lying to children, but what Amanda calls like, you know, parenting and stuff like that. But so I have every time like a parent is like, oh, yeah, I just, like, tell these stories to my kids to get them to act a certain way. My logical brain is like, but you're lying to the children. But sometimes- - hey, sometimes it's necessary, and sometimes it's not, like, extremely damaging, and they don't think that, like, working rocks is a thing, until they're 12 and someone says, what are you talking about?
Jess: There you go. Yes, and I have the differentiation of lying and fibbing. I'm like, not lying to them, I am telling them a little fib because I don't really want to go to the park right now, so we're going to say that it's closed.
Julia: The park is closed, and you have no way of saying that it's not so —
Amanda: It's true.
Jess: What are you gonna do, walk over there yourself? You're four and five, stay in the house. So again, with all of these stories and the ghostly sightings, people do go to the bridge. They go there to encounter them. And even ghost hunters have gone out there several times to see what they can find, so much so that there was a 2019 movie created.
Julia: Ooh, fun.
Jess: Yeah, it's like a documentary style where they're trying to find him. I haven't watched the full movie. I just kind of watched the trailer in a brief synopsis, but it's documentary style where they're trying to follow him, and they catch glimpses of him and —
Julia: So fictional found footage, horror movie?
Jess: Yes.
Julia: That's very fun. I like that kind of stuff.
Jess: Yeah, with all the spooky stuff I watch, I cannot do horror movies. So I'm just like, yeah, like that style, that's the one.
Julia: Sure, sure. But I'm curious also, do they think that it's a spirit? Do they think that this, like, this is a person that, like, went through a tragedy, but is now like wandering through. Like, I think there's like, a big difference between the — the cryptid urban legend, the urban legend of like, the serial killer in your attic, and then, like, ghost urban legend, you know what I mean? So is there like- - is it unclear to a lot of people telling the story what exactly the Char Man is?
Jess: I think so. I think because it has gone through so many iterations, like we saw early in the beginning, that was just a couple of where the Char Man even started from. They're the major ones. There are so many other ones that people talk about. Because while this Char Man is specific to the Ojai Valley, there's going to be a different one that's in Northern California, like where Yosemite is versus down in LA. So those stories are still going to be the same, but different. And then my thinking is, okay, maybe there was, like, an actual Char Man who had lived there and then died, and then these ghost hunters are coming in and going, oh, we're gonna connect with the spirit of this thing who has, like, scarred the land.
Amanda: Makes sense.
Jess: I think they just assume that it's human. But at that point, I'm like, okay, well, Ghost Hunters now are coming in, but, sure, why not?
Julia: That's why I was like, oh, the Zach Bagans and his crew is coming in to see whether or not this thing's a ghost. Alright, interesting.
Amanda: Classic.
Jess: Char Man has that 2019 movie, but then they also created a hot sauce that is sold in the area called Char Man hot sauce. I think is brilliant.
Amanda: I mean, I guess we're charring peppers and I mean, in- - oh boy. Well, that's my first instinct, like, part — parts of that better go to charity. But, I mean, I guess if you're from there and it's your urban legend, then I'm- - it's kind of years to do with what you wish.
Jess: Yeah.
Julia: Sure. I like, I've seen plenty of Bigfoot themed hot sauces out there in the world.
Amanda: Sure. Jerky, famously.
Julia: To like, I think our immediate thought was like, oh, this poor man, you know, he deserves compensation. But then we're also like, this is also encrypted, we have to think about the fact that's been around for so long. And, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense.
Jess: Yeah. And just the like, it's not funny, but it's a little funny, like —
Julia: We're allowed to say it's a little funny.
Jess: — hot sauce, little fire and, like, it's- - it's a little funny.
Amanda: It's a little funny.
Jess: Again, you have to laugh about it so you don't cry about it later. And like we were talking about earlier, the Char Man just kind of goes into this burning folklore. Julia, you talked earlier about Freddy Krueger, with these kind of disfigured forms coming out and causing chaos. There's also the idea of, like, people seeing ghosts at old battlefields, and just that being a permanent implant, because something so tragic had happened there. So while the Char Man not — might not be a specific person, it's more of the idea of, hey, there were people here. There were people who died and suffered this fate, and now it's a mark on the land in general.
Julia: And I think it's really interesting in particular, because this one does seem so fresh and new. And maybe I'm just like the fact that, like, people had, like cars, when this was supposed to have happened. And like, I think, in comparison to something like La Llorona which feels much older, to create something that feels more modern, I think what is giving me so much pause about and why we were like, oh, about the hot sauce, because it still feels fresh. And maybe part of that too is the fact that Los Angeles, the area around there, California in general, have been devastated by these fires so frequently and particularly in the news of the past several years that it feels so true to this day, if that makes sense?
Jess: Oh, definitely.
Amanda: And the pace is increasing. And as we're in an age of, you know, radio, television, photographs, all of that, it is way easier and more present to be aware of this happening elsewhere. And wildfire is something where you know you can experience side effects when it's happening even dozens or in some cases, hundreds of miles away. But I imagine that part of this being a relatively modern urban legend is also because of the relatively modern increase and documentation of wildfires.
Jess: Definitely.
Julia: Yeah.
Jess: So whether the Char Man is real or not real, it's just kind of up in the air. I think it's just mostly a story for people to have a sense of identity and a way to not think about the devastation all the time, and just gives us something to do other than think about what's going on. And just really, if you're ever by old Creek Road, maybe, like, just don't yell out, help me three times, because it's not good for human people and it's not good for Ghost people, and no one likes it.
Julia: Yeah. Even if you're not in earshot of other human people, it's just mean to kind of taunt a ghost like that.
Amanda: It is. Yeah. Like, what do you- - what do you want to have happen? They come in and then say, oh, you're fine, okay, goodbye. Like, no, no, no, that's never in a million years how they're gonna respond.
Julia: What they want is to provoke the ghost into showing himself and then chasing them down, and you know, the thrill of being a youth and thinking that you're invincible is, I'm sure, part of it. As we often talk about with our urban legends.
Amanda: Julia, that's another great subtitle for the show. We're touching the hot stove of our own mortality.
Jess: Yeah.
Julia: Absolutely. You're full of banger one liners this episode, Amanda, I got to say.
Amanda: I got 10 hours of sleep last night. Okay, these things are correlated. They're correlated.
Julia: Oh, incredible. Jess, that the Char Man is such a fascinating figure, and I'm so glad that you brought it to our attention. Not only because they bring attention to the devastation that wildfires can impact on a community is important, but also the fact that I hadn't heard of this before, and I thought it was really cool.
Jess: Definitely. Yeah. It's a crazy story. It's one that I didn't even know until recently. Somebody brought it to my attention. I was like, oh, that is a cool story. And just with everything going on, it brings attention to the wildfires. If you ever want to donate to these organizations that are helping people out, especially with the LA Palisade fires, all of the local animal shelters need help right now, because they are passing out food. They're making sure all those animals are brought in. The American Red Cross is a great one.
Amanda: I've been a big fan and have given to mutual aidla.org which is a network of mutual aid resources. And then there's also from the California Federation of Labor Unions, the AFL CIO and other affiliated unions, has a list of places where you can both understand your rights and resources as workers and give to funds for those unions.
Julia: In particular, as things start getting rebuilt, make sure that your rights as a renter are protected. That's something in particular, don't get price gouged. It is illegal for them to raise it over a certain amount with no noticeable improvements. So protect yourself.
Jess: Definitely.
Amanda: All these links will be in the description as usual.
Julia: Well Jess, this was such a incredible time. Thank you so much for introducing us the Ojai Char Man. Thank you for being on the show. If you'd like, please tell people hey, where can they find you and your work?
Jess: Yeah, definitely. So my podcasts are out everywhere you listen to podcasts. I have my podcast, WTF. Again, that's with my best friend of 15 years. We go everything spooky, true crime. We're on Instagram at wtfisthatpod? Then I have my other podcast coming out very, very soon. It's called So That's How That Happened. Gossipy true crime. We're on Instagram at sothatshowthathappened, and that'll be out in March everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Julia: And as always, links in the description for all of those things, so you can click easily and subscribe.
Amanda: Jess, thank you again for coming on. And folks, next time you're walking your dog at night and hear some teenagers scream for help, then run when they receive it, remember—
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: — stay cool.