Your Urban Legends 104 - Ghost Fingers Are the Worst!
/It’s confirmed: You can use Spirits as a tool for surviving in the wilderness. Also featuring another appearance of the Hat Man, cryptids from the Ozarks, and a horrifying parade of cats.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of mental illness, gun violence, misogyny, and drug use.
Housekeeping
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Cast & Crew
- Co-Hosts: Julia Schifini and Amanda McLoughlin
- Editor: Bren Frederick
- Music: Brandon Grugle, based on "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod
- Artwork: Allyson Wakeman
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About Us
Spirits is a boozy podcast about mythology, legends, and folklore. Every episode, co-hosts Julia and Amanda mix a drink and discuss a new story or character from a wide range of places, eras, and cultures. Learn brand-new stories and enjoy retellings of your favorite myths, served over ice every week, on Spirits.
Transcript
AMANDA: Hey, ConSpiriters, it's me, Amanda, with a quick update for you. Come see us live in Portland, Oregon on March 23rd, 2025. Spirits will be doing a live show with Join the Party. Julia and I will be in both halves of this live show, and you get two live shows for the price of one. We are incredibly excited and we want to see you there. Come on over to spiritspodcast.com/live to check it out and get your tickets now. That's March 23rd, Portland, Oregon, spiritspodcast.com/live. We want to see you there. And by the way, if you're a ConSpiriter who lives in New York City or surrounding areas, we are also going to be having a free cocktail pop-up on February 20th, which is all about the end of our current campaign on Join the Party. Julia and I will be there, Eric will be there. It'll be fabulous. And a listener of Join the Party is theming incredible craft cocktails all around the Join the Party plot. But I'm mentioning it here because, number one, if you want to come hang out with me and Julia, great place to do it. Two, totally free, just RSVP at the link in the description. And third, I think if you listen to the show, you want to have a craft cocktail or mocktail. We have NA options as well. So come on through and see us. One more time, Portland, March 23rd. New York City, February 20th. Links in the description. We hope to see you there.
[theme]
AMANDA: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from somewhere around the world. I'm Amanda.
JULIA: And I'm Julia.
AMANDA: Is that different cadence than I normally say?
JULIA: You— the somewhere I think is new.
AMANDA: Well, Julia, I'm trying to bring an unpredictable energy into 2025 and—
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: —you know, what can I predict my hair looking like any given day? I don't know. I don't know what platform I will use to communicate with my audience, which is how I make a living. I also don't know. All I can know is that every single month, you and I will sit down on any given Wednesday and talk about creepy-ass stories that conspirators send us from somewhere around the world.
JULIA: And it's an urban legends one this week, Amanda. And I am very excited to get us started, if you'll allow me, please.
AMANDA: Oh, my pleasure.
JULIA: This one is from Faye, and it is titled, The Reason I Don't Get Along with Shadow People.
AMANDA: Okay. I mean, you could just say they're creepy, and I didn't invite them here.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: But let's— let's see.
JULIA: Faye starts with, "Hi, Julia and Amanda. I hope you're keeping creepy and cool. I'd like to share a few firsthand experiences of my own creepy happenings with shadow people after listening to Episode 126, You Heard This Episode in a Dream.
AMANDA: One of your best titles, Julia.
JULIA: I— listen, I think that the urban legends episodes have some real bangers because it's really inspired by the conversations that we're having. Usually when I'm titling stuff, I'm like, "Ah, yes, we need to get to the point, the SEO. We have to focus in on, like, what the actual topic is." Your urban legend episodes can be a little loosey-goosey, can be a little fun. And I like—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —I like to have a little fun with those.
AMANDA: Do you think it'd be helpful, Julia, if we sort of, like, commissioned or prompted our audience? Because at this point, you've said, "If you have an urban legend, send it in."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Okay, I feel like we've gotten many of the ones that are out there so far. But what if we prompted them?
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: And we're like, "Hey, what if I wanted the episode title to be Ghost Boobies?" I'm just gonna tell you that right now. It'd be really fun if we had an episode and the urban legend episode title was Ghost Boobies. So if that prompts something in you, I would love for you to write in, spiritspodcast@gmail.com and just make sure Ghost Boobies is, of course, in the title of the email. And I'm gonna see if I can curate a selection of Ghost Booby urban legends for Julia. Folks, it's us. It's like mommy-daughter time, it's Amanda-audience time. I'm the daddy, we know. You're the daddy. I'm the mommy. No, what do we decide?
JULIA: I don't know.
AMANDA: Anyway, that's my suggestion. On with your urban legend.
JULIA: Okay. So she continues, "The Shadow People first appeared to me when I was about 17 or 18 years old. I had un-diagnosed anxiety and depression. They'd appear out of the corner of my eye regularly. I'd be getting off a bus or walking home when a dark shape would flit across the corner of my eye. Easily explained and not necessarily paranormal, but still frightening." I don't know if it's easily explained, personally. I don't know. Maybe you have a good explanation for it, but I don't know.
AMANDA: All of this is not easily explained to me, which is why you are writing in to Spirits Podcast.
JULIA: "Then, there was a time where several were outside of my house, and I distinctly remember that they did not flit away when I looked at them. "
AMANDA: That's like a real vision.
JULIA: Yeah. "One day, I was walking through my childhood home and I saw a large man staring at me through the front door. He was completely dark, wearing a wide brimmed hat and had no discernible features."
AMANDA: So you were close enough to see the model of hat, not close enough to see any face?
JULIA: Well, she also continues, "He was also behind frosted glass, backlit by the sun."
AMANDA: Sure.
JULIA: So maybe that is why the discernible features were not quite discernible.
AMANDA: I am picturing just a face that's smooth, and I hate him.
JULIA: Yeah. Fair, fair. Very Slender man of you. I appreciate it. She continues, "I know it wasn't a real man on the other side of the door. I froze. I felt exposed and terrified. I don't remember how he disappeared or what I did, except calling my boyfriend, completely scared. Things calmed down, and we chalked it up to my mental state at the time, and I thought maybe they were hallucinations or something. Only, I'm now coming to realize that there was something else going on all along. "
AMANDA: What's the something else?
JULIA: "My partner and I bought our first house several years ago. We enjoy sitting by the fire pit with a drink in the evenings. Sometimes, I see shadow people through the windows when I look back at the house."
AMANDA: Wow. Okay, real talk, Julia. If you saw some shadowy figure behind the window of your home when you were outside of it, would you go back in the house?
JULIA: I think I would wait outside until I saw the figure again, and then, if I didn't see them for, like, 20, 30 minutes, I would creep back in, perhaps.
AMANDA: I— like, you know, I am team investigate. I like to go figure it out. If I hear something in the middle of the night, I'm getting out of bed and figuring out what it was. It's worse—
JULIA: Crazy.
AMANDA: I know. It's worse for me not to know. But in this situation, I would go to a neighbor's house and not come back. I would go to the bar, not come back. And I would wait until my husband was home or somebody else to walk through the house with me.
JULIA: Yeah, I think that's the question is, like, am I alone when that happens? In which case, I would call Jake and I would—
AMANDA: Oh, yeah.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: No, you're alone outside, watering the garden. You see a shadowy figure inside your home and, like, probably, I would instinctively go toward it to be like, "Is something happening with someone you helped? Is someone trying to rob me?"
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "Like, what's happening?" But as soon as you describe that, I was like, "Oh, this is the clear cut situation where I would not want to go back in my own."
JULIA: Yeah. No, I would definitely call Jake and I would be like, "Hey, I thought I saw someone. I'm not 100% sure I saw someone. What do I do?"
AMANDA: And he's like, "I'll be there in 30." Yeah.
JULIA: Yeah. All right. Faye continues, "I've always felt like my house has a presence, though, albeit a friendly one. I even had a vision of me taking a baby upstairs during our first viewing, like the house was saying, "Pick me, pick me."
AMANDA: Aw.
JULIA: Which is actually kind of sweet. Like you—
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: —envisioned your future in this house, which is very nice.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: "This presence prompted me to open my mind a bit, and now I've been practicing as a witch for almost a year. I'm also feeling a lot better and I am no longer suffering from my depression. I've started seeing the flitting in the corner of my eye, and I've been wary of it. I'm noticing that these things don't feel like the house's presence, but they have been here for a while. I'm not the Shadow People's biggest fan, and I'd rather not experience a repeat of Mr. Hat."
AMANDA: Hmm.
JULIA: "But I've been doing some research and did a full house cleanse because a relative brought in some bad energy, so I was killing two birds with one stone. I was brushing my teeth the night after the cleanse and felt like something was creeping up. I turned around and nothing was there, but it felt close. I left the bathroom door open, which is a thing it doesn't like. So I poked my head out, peeking around the top of the stairs, was a shadow person. Head poking around the corner and hands holding onto the wall."
JULIA: Like fucking Scooby-Doo like, "Ooh."
AMANDA: I just—
JULIA: "Ooh."
AMANDA: Somehow, for me, a blob-shaped shadow man person is way less scary than one with fingers. Somehow, Julia, that's the detail that I was like, "A whole-ass shadow hand? No, thank you."
JULIA: Hmm. Yeah.
AMANDA: "Shadow blob, we can deal. Shadow digits, no."
JULIA: It's because then the fingies can touch you.
AMANDA: Yes. And they can move stuff. It's like watching an animal use a tool. I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. That's for me."
JULIA: Like watching a raccoon wash its food, you know?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: It's like respect, but also, I don't want to cohabitate with you.
JULIA: Raccoon, get out of my house. You too, shadow person.
AMANDA: Humans have so little.
JULIA: We just have our houses. So Faye continues, "I blink and look away to check that it's still there, which is my litmus test. Yep, still there. So I take out the toothbrush, point it at the damn thing, and sternly say, "No." I go back into the bathroom, close the door, and go back to brushing my teeth. So far I've only seen one, but I've asked them to leave, or else I'll be fetching the sage. I'm going nowhere, solicitors fees are too expensive."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "That's all I got, folks. I'll keep you updated if anything further happens, although I really hope that nothing does. All the best. Faye."
AMANDA: Faye, I highly, highly respect how, like, looking at a dog, considering snatching something off a kitchen counter, you just point your finger and say, "No."
JULIA: "No." It's the best way to do it, honestly. We've learned that politeness works, but also, like, firmness works with ghosts. So—
AMANDA: Yes, exactly.
JULIA: Uh-hmm. It was a good idea.
AMANDA: I love the idea that the shadow person hates when the bathroom door is left open, and so they're like, "I gotta come in and fix this situation."
JULIA: "I gotta see what's going on in there."
AMANDA: One of my friends cat is obsessed with, like, drinking out of the toilet bowl, and so you have to leave the bathroom door closed at all times. And so—
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: —I was cat-sitting for them recently, and in between visits one and two, the bathroom door opened. I walked in and I was like, "Oh, no." Like, am I gonna find, like, the cat was bathing, the water everywhere? It was fine. But ,you know, whether it's a shadow person or a mischievous, silly orange cat, I want to make sure that our bathroom door stay closed.
JULIA: Yeah, it's one of those things where I know that pet owners say that their animals will often follow them to the bathroom. In this case, your shadow person likes to follow you to the bathroom. They don't want to be alone.
AMANDA: It's true.
JULIA: All right, Amanda, what do you got for us?
AMANDA: Well, Julia, Faye's name reminded me of Leo's pronouns from our next email titled Hometown Urban Legend: Ozarkian cryptids and folklore.
JULIA: Yo.
AMANDA: And Leo uses, he/they, plus—
JULIA: Nice.
AMANDA: —extra-neo pronouns like fae, fem, faer, so rock on, Leo. Love that for you. Leo writes, "Hey, it's me again. I hope you're not irritated with how much I write in."
JULIA: No, no.
AMANDA: Never.
JULIA: Sorry, never.
AMANDA: "But I've wanted to talk about Ozarkian folklore to you guys for a while."
JULIA: Ooh.
AMANDA: Today is the day, because I've already info dumped this to everyone who will listen to me, IRL, and y'all probably won't say no. "Now—"
JULIA: It's true, we won't.
AMANDA: "—I have heard most of this stuff once from a person who wrote a book about it, but I can't remember the name of the guy, either the guy or the book, for the record. So take everything here with a grain of salt, it is my specific version. Google also doesn't seem to know what a lot of these things are. So if anyone else has ideas about where I can research them, I'd love to hear."
JULIA: Awesome.
Amana: "So the first is the Gowrow. This is also called the gower, an alligator-like dragon with no wings but a tail covered in blades like hunting knives."
JULIA: Cool. Love that.
AMANDA: Leo says, "This is probably the most well- documented of the Ozarkian cryptids due to an article published in the Arkansas Gazette on January 31st, 1897."
JULIA: I love exact dates and primary sources.
AMANDA: "So William Miller was a traveling businessman who just so happened to visit the small town of Blanco, where almost everyone told him about the horrible reptilian monster who broke into their barns and killed their livestock."
JULIA: Almost everyone told him about this. You show up in town, they say, "We gotta tell you about this. It's wild.
AMANDA: He says, "Ma'am, can I have a cup of coffee and a hot sandwich?" They go, "Let me tell you." And he's like, "I've heard."
JULIA: "I've heard from the gas station attendant. I've heard from the mayor of town. I've heard from the chief of police."
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. "Our friend, Billy Milly, decided immediately to do something about this monster."
JULIA: Okay, interesting.
AMANDA: "He gathered a large group of men from the town, around 35." Which is a large group for a small town. Damn.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "And armed them all with shotguns."
JULIA: Cool.
AMANDA: "They marched bravely into the woods and came across a cave, which they waited outside of until the gowrow slowly made its way out. As soon as they saw the thing, they opened fire. It died pretty quickly, obviously, 30 shotguns is a lot of power."
JULIA: Why did they get 30 shotguns, though? That's also kind of wild.
AMANDA: "They brought it back to town and showed it off like those assholes with the deer carcasses mounted on the backs of their trucks, before having it taxidermied and sending it to the Smithsonian via the United States Postal Service."
JULIA: Um, okay. Sure, sure.
AMANDA: "Now, I should probably mention the Smithsonian claims to have never received any such an artifact, and despite the article claiming William Miller was a well-known businessman in Searcy County, this is the only record we have of a man by that name, is this story."
JULIA: Okay. I'm— listen, why does this feel suddenly like we're like, "USPS at it again. You know?"
AMANDA: No, no, no. The USPS got it there on time. They were probably better funded in the 1880s than they are today, but I don't know. Listen, the thing is, Julia, it was so easy to lie in the past.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Obsessed with how easy it was to lie in the past. You could go to a different town or county and be like, "Not only is it 15 minutes ahead of the last town here, because we don't have a regimented time zones yet, but also you can call yourself whatever you want."
JULIA: I could just go and say I'm a doctor.
AMANDA: You could say whatever you want.
JULIA: Whatever I want.
AMANDA: They might say you're a woman and then you say—
JULIA: They might point that out as problem, but yeah.
AMANDA: Leo finishes, "I'll include a link to the article, since it includes a sketch of the creature, and I could never dream to describe exactly what it looks like." So, Julia, could you take a stab at telling me what this creature looks like?
JULIA: So have you ever seen those medieval drawings of cats?
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: Where they just kind of look like a person.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So it's got the body of that, but there are scales drawn on.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: The face looks vaguely ape-like with two tusks that kind of look like walrus tusks. The feet are proportionally way too big for this creature.
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: And have very sharp, long claws, about as long as the tusks on each individual little toe.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And then it's got spines on his back, like an iguana, I would say.
AMANDA: But going the wrong way. Like you can't pet it. You have to pet it backwards. You just pet it butt to head.
JULIA: Yeah. They're kind of sloped towards the head rather than—
AMANDA: Uh-hmm.
JULIA: —away from the head, which is unusual, I would say, in most creatures. And then it has a long, kind of snake-like tail that looks like it just has a scythe at the end of it.
AMANDA: Now, Julia, upon first glance, I thought that the tail was like a bird like a—
JULIA: Oh, like a flamingo.
AMANDA: —flamingo's long neck.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: Right. And that, I was stoked about. Just a tail with a scythe at the end, hate it.
JULIA: Yeah. Yeah. Bad. I would say bad.
AMANDA: Well, that's the gowrow. Let's see if anyone else in Arkansas or the greater Ozarks has heard of this creature. I hope so too.
JULIA: I hope so. I hope so.
AMANDA: So Leo's email goes on, "It shouldn't be a surprise that this isn't the only story with a gower, though it is the only one I know that could actually really potentially be true. The second story—"
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "—I'm going to tell is from a subsection of fairy tales called the Jacktales, which are usually about a slightly spunky, noble young man named Jack who goes to a new place, in some sort of peril. He fixes the problems and returns home more prosperous, just like Jack and the Beanstalk, which follows this formula so well that the area of Illinois my dad is from, has literally the same story but with a corn stalk instead of beans."
JULIA: That's really funny. It's very funny.
AMANDA: "Our Jack is traveling through the Ozarks and comes across a small town that is terrorized by a gower. Sounds familiar, right? Well, instead of—"
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "—attacking livestock, this one demands a sacrifice of one young woman every year, chained up, Andromeda style, so he won't kill anyone else."
JULIA: Classic.
AMANDA: "By the way, he can talk."
JULIA: Classic.
AMANDA: Is it classic for the creature to be able to talk?
JULIA: Uh, yeah, because otherwise, how would they know that it wants a lady? I mean—
AMANDA: I guess—
JULIA: —there would be assumption, I guess, but—
AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. That's good. I'm just picturing a dog, like, staring at the person like, "Come on, we can figure this out together. I know you can understand if I point to that and then points at me, and then points at that, and then points at me."
JULIA: I like the idea of playing mind meld but with a dog.
AMANDA: oh, my God. If I ever get a dog, that's all I'm gonna do. "Jack is horrified to learn about this awful arrangement that everybody thinks is fine, and tells this year's young woman, a sweet and pretty girl convinced she's doomed, whom we'll call Andy, because I don't remember her name in the tale, that he is going to kill the gower before the gower can kill her."
JULIA: Sure.
AMANDA: "On the day of the sacrifice, Jack posts himself up on the outskirts of town and waits. Takes hours for him to even see the gower coming in the distance. And Jack is really surprised by how slow the creature is. Takes another 15 minutes for the creature to be seen fully. And this story is why I called the gowrow an alligator, because that's basically what it is here. Even though the newspaper sketch looked so different to the alligators we know."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "This gower is muttering about how hungry he is, and once he's close enough, Jack jumps him and starts a fight."
JULIA: Cool.
AMANDA: "Now, the gower is too slow to do anything but swing its dangerous tail, which Jack dodges, and from his quick thinking, manages to slay the beast."
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: "He then runs to Andy, unchains her, and has a little kiss."
JULIA: Oh, a little kiss.
AMANDA: "They leave town together to do more good and cool stuff and probably get married or something, IDK."
JULIA: Cool. Cool.
AMANDA: This does have some roots for me of just, like, be safe around alligators. Like, when my grandparents moved to Florida and we were starting to visit, people were like, "Okay. Like the mouth is scary, but also the tail. Like don't think that if you're approaching from the back, that that's better. Or if, like, the head's radius is important, because it's the whole body, that's a problem." So that made me think like, "Hmm, I wonder if there was some amount of, you know, wisdom encoded in the folklore as there so often is."
JULIA: Yeah. We're also a generation that grew up with Steve Irwin.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So I think we all, like, had real theories about, "If I ever came across an alligator or a crocodile, I know exactly what I do."
AMANDA: I have one of those big rubber bands. I am— I'll be fine.
JULIA: We can do it. It's fine. Don't worry about it.
AMANDA: So Leo also included a number of other Ozark cryptids and folklore. I'm just going to run through them real quick. Some of these were extremely fun, and I see why it's hard to Google, because it sounds like— I hear just like a person with an Ozark accent saying it and I don't know how to spell it.
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: So first was the Snickelhoopus.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "This guy looks like a cross between a lizard and a wallaby, and at the end of his tail, there's a big spiky ball. You might be thinking this is for attacking people, but actually, it'll spin around and throw the tail out so hard that he flies through the air."
JULIA: That's amazing.
AMANDA: Amazing. "There's the High Behind, a large mammal whose back legs are four times the length of its front legs, and they're mostly peaceful."
JULIA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: Have we talked about this in a live show, Julia, or is that the goat that has, like, one side short, one side long?
JULIA: I think we'll get there. I think that one's in this email.
AMANDA: Ooh. "There's the Hide Behind, the carnivorous—"
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "—cousin of the High Behind." I'm saying high versus hide.
JULIA: Hi, H-I-G-H, and then hide, H-I-D-E.
AMANDA: "So the Hide Behind is incredibly tall and thin and hides behind trees, stalking its victims." Oh, my God, that's terrible.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: "No one's ever truly seen one, at least not anybody who lived."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "Gravity Falls made a short about it during the hiatus between seasons 1 and 2." And I gotta tell you, that shit holds up. It's terrifying.
JULIA: It's very scary.
AMANDA: "There's the Whangdoodle, also known as the kingdoodle. You probably know this dude is a monster who eats Oompa Loompas in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. But in the Ozarks, these are 10-foot long collared lizards who are mostly peaceful but incredibly clumsy, so he knocks down a lot of the trees in the Glades."
JULIA: Aw, little guy.
AMANDA: I love him. I recommend— I really relate as somebody who is also big and slightly clumsy. And then, Julia, there is the Snawfus, which Leo says is their favorite guy.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "The Snawfus is a giant white deer with flowering dogwood branches for antlers, and sometimes even they have wings."
JULIA: One of my dreams.
AMANDA: "When they do have wings, they can fly. But when they don't, they can still jump very high. Snawfuses weigh basically nothing and enjoy running through the tree chops like squirrels. They breathe blue haze, which is why the Ozark Mountains look like they're covered in a bluish filter in the fall and winter."
JULIA: Whoa.
AMANDA: "Seeing a Snawfus is also an omen. Seeing him wants a joyous thing, as it means several things are going to go wonderfully for you. The second time, however, sets an intense discomfort and paranoia into you."
JULIA: Uh-oh.
AMANDA: "For the third time you see the Snawfus is the day you will die."
JULIA: I simply would never go outside again.
AMANDA: I'd see it once and be like, "Incredible. Oh, my God, amazing."
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: I'm walking on sunshine, baby. And then as soon as time two happens, you're not going to catch me outside again.
JULIA: I'm a hermit now.
AMANDA: I'm a hermit now.
JULIA: Sorry.
AMANDA: Sorry.
JULIA: I'm a hermit now.
AMANDA: I could think of less beautiful places to be a hermit, because me and the Ozarks are never seeing each other again. Ah, few more here, Julia. We have the Giasticatus. "A giant black bird with wings estimated to be 40 feet long. Mostly referenced as a bird that steals cattle and leaves behind 10-foot long feathers." Oh, my God. Can you imagine that?
JULIA: That'd be really cool.
AMANDA: There's the Fillyloo crane. "A long-necked bird who flies backwards and upside-down.
JULIA: Hell, yeah.
AMANDA: That seems like someone got high, saw the reflection of a bird flying in the pond, and was like, "Yo!"
JULIA: This bird, it was flying backwards and upside-down.
AMANDA: Yeah. There is the Gallywampus. That's the kind of folklore I'm looking for here.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "A large aquatic panther, generally a mossy green color. They're very fast, but can't turn very well. So on the off chance one is chasing you in the water, just turn a corner in the river and it'll ram itself into a mud bank. Happily, they won't attack unless provoked."
JULIA: I think that one is actually a Native American story originally, that definitely got like, adapted into the folklore of, like, the lumber-jack tall tales, and also like Ozark traditions.
AMANDA: Just four more, Julia. We have a Stone County monster, Bigfoot, but it's a mountain lion. Leo says, "My grandfather told me all about this."
JULIA: Love that.
AMANDA: "There is the painter, literally a mispronunciation of panther, who's basically the Big Bad Wolf."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "If you don't open the door for him, by the way, he will come down your pantry."
JULIA: Oh.
AMANDA: So I guess you have to be hospitable.
Jolia: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And then my favorite, too. There is the hoop snake. "A snake with a big horn on its head that moves around by biting its tail and rolling like a wheel. If it starts chasing you, run down a hill past a tree, and because it can't see very well, the horn will get stuck in the tree trunk."
JULIA: It's really cute.
AMANDA: And then your friend and mine, Julia, the side hill hoofer."
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: "This is, of course, a donkey, sometimes a goat, sometimes a donkey, with differently sized legs on each side of his body, so either the left or the right will be shorter than the other one. To deal with this, they can only live on hills, and when two side hill hoofers meet, walking in opposite directions, they fight to the death." There's no other way.
JULIA: Of course.
AMANDA: There can only be one.
JULIA: It could only be one. And then they have to be opposite.
AMANDA: It can't be, like, do the shuffle of like, "Oh, to the side. Oh, you to the side. Oh, like, let me go over, under." Nope, fight to the death.
JULIA: My assumption was going to be they fuck, but fight to the death also works.
AMANDA: And then make offspring with equally sized legs?
JULIA: Yes, yes. Exactly. You're like, "Oh, that's how to get regular donkeys."
AMANDA: That's how genetics works. Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: I like that a lot.
AMANDA: This reminded me the idea of them seeing each other and then fighting to the death of something that happened a lot when I worked in finance. And I worked in like, midtown Manhattan, with mostly men commuting at the same time in the morning, Where if a man was walking toward me, holding an umbrella, and I'm almost six feet tall, and the man was not six feet tall, they would raise the umbrella up, so I had to, like, duck under it. But if the man is five-five and I'm almost six feet tall in my shoes—
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: —the person with the smaller umbrella should hunker down, or the person who's lower should pass under. But no, no, no. This was some kind of, like, fucked up measuring contest of you know what. And so, A, they would have golf umbrellas, which are meant, by the way, for a caddy to hold over a golfer and their bag. You don't need that in the middle of Manhattan, Nick.
JULIA: No, Nick.
AMANDA: Or they would simply raise it up and then it would be, like, on my eye level, and I'm like, "Aaah." Then I had to, like, duck under.
JULIA: It's like that study where they said if you have two people walking directly towards each other in the sidewalk, it is almost always the woman who will yield instead of the man, because it's like some weird fucking power dynamic thing.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: And so I purposefully always stay.
AMANDA: You don't yield?
JULIA: And focused up. I don't yield.
AMANDA: That's incredible. I would consider fighting to the death next time somebody with a gigantic golf umbrella just like barrels toward me at eye level. Otherwise, I think we should all throw off the yoke of the binary gender system.
JULIA: Worth considering. Worth considering.
AMANDA: It hurts to be poked in the eye with an umbrella. Julia, and that's why gender is a social construct.
JULIA: Gender is a social construct because it hurt when I hurt.
AMANDA: Indeed. Well, Leo, thank you again for all of your Ozarkian folklore. Julia, I'm feeling a little bit parched. Do you want to run for a quick refill?
JULIA: Yeah, I would love that. Let's go.
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JULIA: Hey, it's Julia, and welcome to the refill. We have new patrons that we wanted to welcome to our Patreon. Thank you so much to Milo, Marisa, and Mika, all M names this week. Thank you so much for joining our Patreon at patreon.com/spiritspodcast, where you get really cool rewards. I say it every time I do this part, but get stuff like ad-free episodes or recipe cards for every single episode, or bonus urban legends episodes and so much more. And we might have some new Patreon rewards coming your way, so stay tuned for that. And thank you as always to our supporting producer-level patrons Uhleeseeuh, Anne, Hannah, Jane, Lily, Matthew, Rikoelike, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Scott, Wil and AE (Ah), as well as our legend-level patrons, Audra, Bex, Chibi Yokai, Michael, Morgan H., Sarah, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And again, you can join them by going to patreon.com/spiritspodcast. I've got a recommendation for you this week, and that is The Singing Hills Cycle by Nghi Vo. I really love these. It's a series of novellas that are out right now and with a new one coming this year. And it was a great start to my new year reading all of these. And they're so, like, beautiful and based in folklore and also kind of incredible in the world-building that they do. So check that out. That is The Singing Hills Cycle, and you can find the link to that in the show note description. Also, hey, do you feel like social media is kind of all over the place right now? I know I do. Are you not sure where to follow your favorite shows or are you worried you'll miss out on exciting things from Multitude? Well, we are, too. And as our social media landscape changes, we want to make sure that you can always find us. So if you want to keep in the loop with whatever is new at Multitude, sign up for our newsletter. Our monthly newsletter is the best way to stay up-to-date with what we're doing at Multitude from news to live shows to articles about the podcasting industry, and so much more so. To sign up today, head over to multitude.productions/newsletter. That's multitude.productions/newsletter. This episode is sponsored by Calm. And have you had difficulty focusing lately? I know I do. I feel like I want to spend time with my loved ones. I want to give people the attention they deserve, or like the things that I love the attention they deserve. And I just feel like I'm constantly spacing out. And things like parenting pressures or work challenges or school commitments or just personal drama can really wreak havoc on your ability to stay focused and productive. And if this sounds like you, I know something that can really make a difference, and that is Calm. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, giving you the power to calm your mind and change your life. 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WILLA: Hi, I'm Willa Paskin, the host of Decoder Ring, Slate's podcast about cracking cultural mysteries. On Decoder Ring, we dive down rabbit holes and obsessively explore questions hiding in plain sight. Like, why has slow dancing gone out of style? And when did we all become obsessed with hydration? And where did the word mullet, you know, to describe a hairstyle come from? That's Decoder Ring. Named one of the best podcasts of 2023 by the New York Times. Listen to new episodes every two weeks and make sure to follow us so you never miss one.
JULIA: And now, let's get back to our show.
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JULIA: Amanda, we're back. And what have you been enjoying, cocktail, mocktail-wise lately? Because I think I've discovered my perfect mocktail.
AMANDA: Oh, my God, tell me about it.
JULIA: I think you feel either seltzer or soda water for this as the base.
AMANDA: Hey, Julia, what's the difference?
JULIA: I don't know. I'm sure there is—
AMANDA: I think those are the same thing.
JULIA: I don't know. I think one has minerals and the other doesn't. I'm not sure.
AMANDA: Minerals and water is a marketing scam, though.
JULIA: But they do taste slightly different. It's not a noticeable difference. It doesn't matter that much. Whatever sparkling liquid you have on hand works, you know? But I do unflavored, and I do plain. A full lime juiced in there, and then just, like, five or six dashes of this Tiki bitters that I have.
AMANDA: Hell yeah.
JULIA: And that's it. And that's it. You're ready to go. Give it a little stir. You're ready to drink it.
AMANDA: I love that. I have been mixing ginger beer over pebble ice with pomegranate iced tea or a hibiscus.
JULIA: Nice.
AMANDA: Kind of depends what I've got on hand. But some kind of, like, fruity or floral iced tea. Not typically something I love on its own, but if I cut it with, like, again, something more bitter, like a unsweetened lemonade or a ginger beer, I love that shit. So recently, I've been doing hibiscus iced tea and ginger beer, maybe squeeze a lime if we have one lying around, but hmm, so good.
JULIA: Yeah. And if you wanted to try either of these as alcoholic beverages, I would say any kind of rum for mine added to it. Yeah.
AMANDA: Perfect. And you know I love a tequila, mezcal, I think that would be really good addition to a gingery floral drink.
JULIA: Hell yeah. Love it. All right, Amanda, I have one here from Jeff. He him who has titled his email, Always Brings Snacks for the fae.
AMANDA: Good idea. Tell me why.
JULIA: "There is a beautiful hiking trail in Michigan that runs along the Manistee River. Apart from the gorgeous views and the dispersed camping, one of the great things about it is it's hard to get lost. The trail is well-marked, and even if you lose it, you're always bordered by the river to the west and the highway about a mile east. So even though it feels like wilderness, you can tell direction and know how to walk in a straight line, so you can always find the trail again. One summer, I was hiking along this familiar path, enjoying the sun and the bird song. A little before noon, when I realized I hadn't seen a trail marker in a while."
AMANDA: Good realization.
JULIA: "No worries, I thought. I'm still on a clear path. But as I hiked that four-foot wide path shrunk to two feet, and then one, then to a deer track. And before long, I look around and realize I'm in the middle of a swamp."
AMANDA: Wow.
JULIA: "A swamp that shouldn't be here because this trail is all dunes."
AMANDA: Oh, no.
JULIA: "I briefly consider backtracking, but that would mean going back the way I came for an hour or more. And I knew that if I walked due west, I would have to hit the trail or the river in half an hour or less, right? I check the time, look at the sun in the sky, and I walk west. For an hour, how have I not hit the river? I check my compass to make sure that my sun reckoning was correct, and walk for another hour."
AMANDA: No.
JULIA: "No river. Another 30 minutes, still nothing. I checked the GPS on my phone. It can't seem to find the satellites. Apparently, I'm not anywhere."
AMANDA: Oh, boy. This is like the liminal space of a hotel ballroom, but with a lot more mosquitos.
JULIA: This is a real Blair Witch situation that's happening here.
AMANDA: Oh, baby.
JULIA: "By this point, I'm tired, confused, and viciously being attacked by mosquitoes. The sun is getting lower in the sky and I've spent most of the afternoon being lost, so I stop and think, could it be a navigation problem? Did the river just up and move? And then it hits me, more than anything, this sounds like all the stories you hear on Spirits when you're being fucked with by the fae."
AMANDA: Yes, yes.
JULIA: "So I say out loud, 'I get it now. What a hilarious prank. You fair folk really got me. And in thanks for the laugh, I want to offer you this.' And I took out some dried peaches from my backpack and placed them at the base of a tree. 'That being said, I would really like to get back to the trail. Do you think you can help me out?'"
AMANDA: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
JULIA: "And then I turned west once again, and I started walking. In five minutes, I ran into the trail right next to the river."
AMANDA: Thank you. You're welcome. Absolutely pristine behavior. I love this, and I love that it was a preserved, yet sweet food, because we know the fae loves some sweetness.
JULIA: Out of curiosity, I pulled my phone out to see if the GPS was working again. It was, but that's when I saw the time. It was morning, just before noon. By the GPS, I had walked South about five miles, but by the clock, it had been about 12 minutes." And Amanda, that's the end of the email.
AMANDA: Aaah! No. No.
JULIA: I can't believe I jump scared you with an "That's the end of the email."
AMANDA: Oh, my God. Time lost, dude.
JULIA: That's wild. That's pretty wild.
AMANDA: Okay.
JULIA: That's a good prank.
AMANDA: I have certainly been in situations where I'm— obviously, every day playing Pokemon Go, and sometimes if you lose reception, and then the phone is trying to find it again, the GPS will kind of be like, [warbling noise] like it'll bounce all over the place until it finds where you are.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: But five miles worth?
JULIA: Five miles in 12 minutes. It's truly just impossible.
AMANDA: That is impossible.
JULIA: I don't have an answer. I think my question that remains is, Jeff, are you okay?
AMANDA: Are you okay, Jeff?
JULIA: You okay?
AMANDA: Did you need that snack, those— that sustenance?
JULIA: So that also feels very alien abduction-y, because that's a very common thread, is like losing time. But in fact, it almost feels like Jeff gained time.
AMANDA: Yes.
JULIA: So I don't have an explanation for gained time. You know what I mean?
AMANDA: You're right. It was like a time bubble. Like there was the cul-de-sac of the fae, and they, you know, both geographically and temporally, were like, "Hahaha, you're a play thing." Until Jeff was smart enough to apply lessons learned right here on Spirits to the real world, where you say, "Just in case this works." Thank you. Well-played. Some peaches. Goodbye. And then see if it works. It's not gonna hurt.
JULIA: See if it works, I don't know. Oh, God. I don't— I do a decent amount of hiking, and I always hike, like, very well-marked trails. The park that I tend to go to, it's all kind of surrounded by highways, but at the same time, like it is a sprawling kind of reservation. So I am very curious how it would feel to get lost there, knowing like, oh, you know, if I go this way a couple miles, I know I'm gonna hit this road, and if I go this way, I'll eventually hit that road. Like, there should be a moment to where I'm like, "Okay, I don't know where I am anymore." You know what I mean?
AMANDA: My parents told that to me when I first started driving, because we grew up on an island and, like, it's quite a long island. That's why— that's its name. You can drive, you know, 60 miles before you hit the end. But my parents were like, "You'll hit the water eventually. Like, you'll figure it out. Don't worry about it." You know? And, like, it was actually a very good way to begin to orient myself like, "Okay, like, I live, you know, on this shore, but there's that shore, the parkway's in between them, whatever." That said, you will never catch me hiking alone.
JULIA: That's a big one.
AMANDA: A place I don't know, and without full cell reception. So absolute, you know, love to all of you. I cannot imagine that experience. Camping scares me. Hiking kind of scares me. And as much as I, you know, love to read like Blair Braverman's column in Outside Magazine, I'm nervous.
JULIA: That's fair. I think the wildest part to me is Jeff had a compass.
AMANDA: And a phone.
JULIA: And by all accounts, should have been able to find that river quickly.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: I don't know. And then thought he was going west the whole time and then ended up five miles south of where he started. That's— I still don't have a good explanation. I just don't. I just don't.
AMANDA: Jeff, the fact that you live to write this email to us is a service not just to you, but to us, so thank you.
JULIA: All right. Amanda, do you have one last one for us?
AMANDA: I do, Julia. I have a cute little roundup from Wil, he/they called A Family Story And Cat Ghosts.
JULIA: Ooh. We love a cat ghost on the podcast.
AMANDA: We do. Are we working on some merch to that extent? Maybe.
JULIA: Who can say?
AMANDA: Wil says, "Hello, I listened to all of your urban legend episodes by now, and figured I would throw my stories in the mix. But before I do, thank you so much for putting the show together. I know that you have helped me through many long hours of commuting and recommended some excellent books and authors."
JULIA: Yay.
AMANDA: "First family story, I grew up in a very right wing Christian family, and maybe that's part of why there was a heavy emphasis on things you can't see but still do believe in."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "My grandpa was such a storyteller. I've been working on getting those stories out of him in better than my recollections detail, since my memory is spotty, so I'll get back if anything comes of it."
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: "But I do recall a few small pieces from when I heard this legend growing up. My great grandparents lived in a large house in Vancouver. They had 11 children, and needed somewhere to keep them all."
JULIA: A lot of children.
AMANDA: "He was a sailor and spent much of his time at sea."
JULIA: Okay, all right.
AMANDA: "At times when my great grandma was left at home with the kids, after putting all of them to bed, she would hear sounds of music and chatting through her floorboards." I feel like we often, Julia, will hear things above, but less often below.
JULIA: Yeah, I don't—
AMANDA: So I leaned in at this point.
JULIA: I don't love that.
AMANDA: "When she would get up from bed to check on the noise," Team Investigate, one of us.
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: "She would always find the lower level of the house dark and empty, just like she left it."
JULIA: Okay.
AMANDA: "That wasn't the only odd occurrence in that home. There seemed to be a force that detoured you from walking up the stairs on the right side. Visitors who had never been in the house before would take a few steps up the staircase and then step to the left, as if they were walking around an unseen but perfectly tangible obstacle."
JULIA: Okay. That's bizarre.
AMANDA: Isn't that weird?
JULIA: That is weird. It's like a force field that you can only feel, I guess. I don't know.
AMANDA: Right? And it's not like you follow the tread of a carpet or, you know, there's like— in my house growing up, we would often leave mail or like things to bring upstairs in a certain step.
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: And I'm like, "Okay, well, that has to go up the stairs." No, this is just like, unasked, people just, like, detour to the left.
JULIA: I don't like that, but okay.
AMANDA: "On to the cats."
JULIA: Here we go.
AMANDA: "Quick aside, I have had sleep paralysis most of my life, so grains of salt. Some of this may be sleep paralysis, but some of it, I know, is not."
JULIA: Ooh, okay. I like the confidence.
AMANDA: "So I was traveling in Greece with a friend. It was our first night out in town and we were staying in Plaka. It was a very, very beautiful spot. The buildings, the ruins, all of the stray-ish cats who would jump up into your lap without a second thought."
JULIA: I've been there. I've had that happen to me, not in Greece, but in Rome. There is a— there's a cat sanctuary where Caesar got killed.
AMANDA: Oh, boy. Wait, was it a cat sanctuary before he got killed or after?
JULIA: After it happened. Cats just kind of took over the ruins and like, "This is the cat sanctuary now." I don't know.
AMANDA: Julia, that was the dumbest question I've ever asked on this podcast, because why would Caesar be the cat sanctuary?
JULIA: Why not, Amanda? Maybe he was a real big fan of cats.
AMANDA: I was like, "I would have known that from the legend, I think, if that was part of it." "So we spent the evening wandering the city. My friend was feeling a little bit sick after our fast food dinner, so he calls it an early night. We were staying in an old building that had been renovated with some modern amenities, but still had the charm and historical feel that I'd always dreamed of. The living room was off to the left of the entrance. Straight ahead was the small kitchen, and then down the hallway to the right was the bathroom and bedroom. So since my friend wasn't feeling well, I offered up that they could stay in the bedroom and chose to sleep on the couch in the living room. The city around us was quiet. There wasn't much in the way of light breaking through the curtains, but it was enough to move around the room without turning on a lamp and disturbing my friend's chance at sleep. I lay there on the couch for quite a bit before I started to drift off. And then it struck me, I was trapped, pinned to the couch, couldn't move, couldn't make a sound."
JULIA: Oh, no.
AMANDA: "But the difference is I could feel eyes on me."
JULIA: Uh-oh.
AMANDA: "And now, I tried to force myself to move. I'd been there before. You wiggle the toes, get the extremities moving. But this time, when I tried to call out, the only sound I made was the pressure of the breath trying to force itself through my lips."
JULIA: Oh, no, that's really bad.
AMANDA: Nightmare, shit, dude. "I can't say how long I was held there before I was able to wiggle my toes. It felt like an age before I managed to roll myself onto the floor. But unlike all my instances of sleep paralysis before that, I still didn't have full control of my body."
JULIA: Uh-oh.
AMANDA: "I managed to put my arms under my chest and pull myself along the floor. Only then did I see the line of cats sitting along the hallway, watching me as if I was their own parade."
JULIA: I don't like that. And also that description is very, very impactful. I don't like it.
AMANDA: "They didn't move or make a sound. Just sat and stared as I army crawled along the hall and made my way to the bedroom where my friend lay sleeping. I managed to lift myself onto the bed to lay beside him, but my mind and heart were racing until I fell into sleep. Jump to now, another vacation and another weird cat thing."
JULIA: Okay. The— just the parade of cats, not even the parade, the viewership of cats is so spooky.
AMANDA: The parade (army of cats) right?
JULIA: Yes.
AMANDA: Of just, like, a military salute or something. Oh, my God, terrifying. I don't want the cats that organized. No, no, no.
JULIA: I don't like that at all.
AMANDA: "So I have two cats at home, one of whom walks across the pillows every night when I'm sleeping, and their names are Nox and Inara, after the Hittite goddess." So shout out.
JULIA: Cool.
AMANDA: "I was nearly asleep in bed in a nice hotel in the Zona Romantica in Puerto Vallarta. There were some unfamiliar noises, as there always are in a new place, but these sounds were enough to keep me from falling right to sleep."
JULIA: Uh-hmm.
AMANDA: "I pulled the blankets up over my head to try and drown them out, but as I was nodding off, I felt something small leap up onto the bed and step across my neck."
JULIA: Oh, no, not the neck.
AMANDA: "There were four little feet, one after the other. The exact same cadence with which my cat would walk across my pillow, right across my neck."
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: "I froze. I was in Puerto Vallarta and I couldn't understand what I was feeling. I nudged my partner, but he was sleeping, and I felt the pressure on the blanket cross the bed and then disappear."
JULIA: Hmm.
AMANDA: "Because I didn't see or hear anything else that night, I just went to sleep. And in the morning, I asked my partner if he noticed anything strange. He said he hadn't and I must just be thinking of our cats at home. At this point, it's muscle memory."
JULIA: Yeah.
AMANDA: "So not sure if my cats follow me, or if I encountered a new ghost cat. But thank you so much for your podcast and I'm gonna look forward to writing in with a few more stories from the houses I lived in growing up, and the weird things my siblings and parents and I saw there. Stay creepy, Wil."
JULIA: Never gonna get that picture of the cats out of my mind, lined up watching you army crawl down the hallway.
AMANDA: Yeah.
JULIA: This is never gonna happen.
AMANDA: Me, neither. Thank you so much, Wil. Absolutely terrifying. You did a great job. Shout out to all the he/theys. We had a little round up in this episode, and I love that for y'all.
JULIA: Hell yeah.
AMANDA: Cool. Well, Julia, next time you find yourself trapped on the couch and look up to make eye contact with several dozen pairs of feline eyes, remember—
JULIA: Stay creepy.
AMANDA: —stay cool.
JULIA: Later, satyrs.
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