Episode 55: Yuki-onna
/Winter is here, and with it blows the cold wind of something spooky. We tell the sad tale of the Yuki-onna, a spirit of a woman who froze to death in the icy cold, who comes back seeking the warmth that will destroy her. We spin a tale of Amanda’s future bed & breakfast, redefine what a terrible Hallmark card would be, talk pre-blizzard strategies, and more! (Contains discussion of recovery from trauma and abuse.)
Thanks to Tab for a Cause for sponsoring us this week. Grab the extension and start earning for charity at tabforacause.com/spirits
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. Merch is for sale at spiritspodcast.com/merch.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 55: Yuki-onna.
JS: Yeah. That's right. It is cold outside. So, we're getting some cold, cold myths in there.
AM: It was even colder in Seattle, where we just were for PodCon. Oh, my god. I just how you --
JS: It was amazing.
AM: I just how you a like 24 hours ago, Julia, and already like I miss you and our friends and the incredible time we had being for a second full time podcasters.
JS: I miss all of our friends so very much right now.
AM: I know. I know. And, and I also missed being online and chatting. Yes, this is somewhat of a weird segue with our patrons. So, thank you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And welcome to our newest patrons; Lin, Jessica, Audrey, Siobhan, Brittney, Meg, Mandy, Rebecca, Brodie and Amanda. Not me.
JS: You're all just wonderful, wonderful snow people.
AM: You are. And, if you --
JS: Not snowman, not snowwomen, but just you'll see.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. You'll get there. And, if you showed up at our door seeking shelter, we would give it to you. Again, you will see. We would also give shelter and a hot drink to our supporting producers; Neal, Chandra, Philip, Julie, Sara, Josh, Eeyore, Mercedes, Sandra, Robert, Lindsey, Phil, Catherine, Ryan, Debra, and our legend-level patrons; LeAnn, Erin, Ashley, Shannon, Cammie and Cassie.
JS: You're all just wonderful, idyllic icicle people.
AM: Again, it will make sense later. And, speaking of Patreon, we know that there has been some, some stuff in the news and on Twitter recently about Patreon changing the way that they charge fees to patrons. So, in many cases, people will be paying more for their pledges. But we sent a blogpost to all of our patrons letting them know a little bit more about what's happening and ways that they can limit or reduce or change their pledges. So, we thank you for sticking with us and we know that, you know, your support means the world to us. And we're gonna keep making it work.
JS: And, you know, Amanda, what is a great way to give to a good cause without spending money?
AM: What is?
JS: Our sponsor this week, which is Tab for a Cause.
AM: Absolutely. Tab for a Cause is a web application. So, it's like a browser extension or add on that you put on your browser. And then, whenever you open up a new tab or new window, it shows you a really pretty picture like a calming nature picture, a clock, and a little ad. And that ad raises money for charity. It is free. Free money for charity.
JS: I mean what's better?
AM: I don't know. I mean signing up with our referral link. That way we can track how much money Team Spirits is raising for charity, which is tabforacause.com/spirits.
JS: You're right. That is better.
AM: And, Julia, what were we drinking during this episode?
JS: You'll see why we're drinking what we were drinking. But we're having some nice warm sake.
AM: Yeah. I'm not usually a fan of warm alcoholic drinks. Like a hot toddy is kind of like the warmest I'll go, but Hot Sake has a really, really nice little taste to it.
JS: It is. It’s delicious and goes great with the myth that we told.
AM: Indeed. So, thank you so much again for supporting us. We really appreciate hearing from you on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram. We're @SpiritsPodcast in all those places. And our book club over on Goodreads is hoppin’ and poppin’ with new book recommendations every day. So, check that out. All the links are in the description. And, without further ado, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 55: Yuki-onna.
Intro Music.
JS: So, Amanda, the weather is finally, finally getting colder.
AM: That's amazing except for my nose running all of the time.
JS: Yes. Same.
AM: I really, really appreciate the fact that I don't sweat the second I, I think about going outside.
JS: I am a person who is always cold 100 percent of the time. And there is nothing --
AM: You are. You’re a little bird person.
JS: I am a little bird person. But there is nothing better than being able to turn the fireplace on in my house --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- and just sit in front of it until it's 80 degrees and my fiance yells at me to turn it off.
AM: Yeah. I get home from work and my apartment is, is tropical frankly --
JS: I love it.
AM: -- as my 110-year-old building’s heating system is quite zealous. And, so, I just open all the windows. And it's the best of both worlds, where it's like not too cold, but there's a cold breeze. And that's all I want.
JS: You're a weirdo, but, okay, it sounds about right.
AM: I am.
JS: So, because it's this time of the year, I wanted to do something that was a little bit more on the festive side. So, let me tell you a story. Okay.
AM: Julia, does your idea of festive involve infanticide? Oh, no. She's thinking.
JS: I'm not gonna spoil the story.
AM: Okay. Let's start.
JS: So, Amanda, I know you have gone skiing or go up to a cabin every winter or so.
AM: Yes. Yes.
JS: So, imagine you're high in the mountains and you're staying at – and, actually, nope, better yet, you own a bed and breakfast. up in the mountains.
AM: Julia, I love it. .
JS: I know. I know. This is your dream job.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, you've heard there's a blizzard coming. So, you've buckled down for the night. You stoked the fire and maybe you just started making like a stew or something like that.
AM: And I definitely bought milk and bread, which my mom yells at me over the phone to buy every time more than like half an inch of precipitation of any kind is coming to New York.
JS: That is correct. There is a comedian that makes that same joke, where everyone goes crazy the moment the snow hits the ground. And they had to buy all the bread and milk.
AM: All – just all. What are you gonna do? Not eat bread or milk? No.
JS: You settle down for your meal, but you hear a knock at the door.
AM: Oh, oh.
JS: You open the door and it is a woman, who's clearly not bundled up as much as she should be despite the weather. But she's traveling alone and you invite her in. You sit her by the fire. You get her to warm herself up. Maybe you even offer her some of the stew that you made yourself.
AM: Okay.
JS: You're kind of struck by how beautiful she is, but even more so that she's just sweet and very charming.
AM: Okay. Okay. I'll probably ask her on a date.
JS: I'm not surprised. You can't explain why, but you're really glad that she's arrived. It's nice to have company I guess.
AM: Okay. Now, we're pushing the limits of my imagination, because I'm very introverted. And the idea of unexpect company is like among my worst nightmares. It's like --
JS: It's your bed and breakfast though.
AM: But I – I know. I like to think of myself as the kind of person who would just embrace a stranger, et cetera, et cetera. So, how does this go bad?
JS: Good point. You go to bed for the night glad to have this new companion. Outside the blizzard begins to rage. But something wakes you up. You're not sure what time it is or what the noise is that woke you up. Maybe it was the storm. So, you go downstairs to investigate. Always the first mistake.
AM: Never.
JS: And your guests stand in the doorway looking out at the storm. The door wide open.
AM: Oh, boy.
JS: You beg her don't go outside. The storm is too fierce. Wait until morning you tell her, but she goes to step out anyway. Not thinking you grab her hand hoping that you can pull her inside and talk some sense into her, but her hand is ice cold. Not like someone who's been standing out in the middle of a door, but like literal ice.
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: Merely touching it, Amanda, and all the warmth is sucked from your body. You shiver violently. And the woman turns to look at you and her skin looks whiter than the snow outside. And then her body shifts, and she isn't there anymore. There's just the outline of where she stood now a fine icy mist. It drifts out into the night leaving the door open to the winter storm outside. And I'm here to tell you, Amanda, that what you just experienced was a visit from Yuki-onna or the snow woman.
AM: I need to know everything.
JS: I know you do.
AM: I need to know.
JS: That was a good story, wasn't it?
AM: Also, I have like a very vivid image of my Bed and Breakfast now. There's like wide kinds of oakey-colored wood plank floors. Definitely, like a reclaimed, kind of salvage stone situation over the fire. Lots of books. I'm not gonna bore you to death with the details, but just know that you've conjured a very vivid word picture in my head.
JS: You know that I definitely want to hear all about this after we stop recording.
AM: Absolutely.
JS: Okay. We'll move on now. The story of the Yuki-onna has origins in the Muromachi period of Japan, which starts around the mid-12th century.
AM: Okay.
JS: She's first mentioned by a poet named Sōgi, who says he saw the Yuki-onna while standing in the Echigo Province. So, this story first involves the story of a man who claimed he was married to a woman that he met, who was beautiful and charming and very, very pale.
AM: Okay.
JS: They marry, but there is one thing that's odd. He never sees his wife go into the bath. When he presses her, she is extremely reluctant. And, when he finally pushes the issue on a cold night, worried that she will freeze otherwise from the cold, she finally agrees. But, when she gets into the bath, she disappears completely leaving only fragmented icicles floating in the water.
AM: Whoa. I wonder what the origin of that is.
JS: I don't know, man. It's just, just – we'll, we'll get into it a little bit more. But I just – I love the story already. And I have lots of opinions on it.
AM: I need to know more.
JS: A Yuki-onna can have both a good side and a bad side. As it's clear, they can interact with humans in a positive way. So, the story of the innkeeper that I first told you about, in which you were the innkeeper or the story of the man who married Yuki-onna. The problem is a Yuki-onna feasts on human lifeforce.
AM: All right. All right.
JS: She has a couple of different MOs for killing actually, which is always good. One of her typical methods actually involves using a child. So, you had to bring up --
AM: No.
JS: You had to bring up the child at the beginning. Faining worry that her child will freeze, she'll ask a passer-by to hug that child. When the stranger does, the child becomes heavier and heavier until one is covered in snow and freezes to death.
AM: Whoa. And is the child just like another instantiation of her being? Like, like – ugh --
JS: Yeah. They call it the snow child. So, it's basically a child made of snow.
AM: Yikes.
JS: If you say no to hugging the child, the Yuki-onna will instead grow mad and shove you down into a snowy valley.
AM: I love – I love these Japanese myths, where you have the potential to say yes or no, and just none of the choices are right.
JS: The answer is always wrong.
AM: The answers are always wrong. You are always going to die or at least suffer.
JS: Yes. So, her other method is to simply suck the life force from a victim's mouth into her own with an icy breath that then freezes her victim solid.
AM: Whoa.
JS: It's a good one.
AM: Yikes. And what – do they have a like smiling expression on or they're just like contorted in fear?
JS: It's not the Lost Girl, Amanda. She's not a succubus.
AM: Fine.
JS: They’re just frozen. It doesn't have to be like lip locking necessarily. She can just get close and --
AM: Right. Draw it out.
JS: Yeah. So, now, you're probably wondering how you can identify a Yuki-onna.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Since you don't wanna accidentally make out with one or freeze to death, that’s always --
AM: I mean I'll take my chances at certain points. But, yes, no, I don't want that.
JS: I mean fair enough I guess. So, she'll only appear on a snowy night. She is said to be tall, beautiful, have long black hair, and blue lips – you know from the cold. She's supposed to be extremely pale or even have translucent skin.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Yeah. That's creepy, right?
AM: I guess, at a certain point, you can see veins, you know, or arteries, whichever are blue. I think veins.
JS: Probably both if her skin is that translucent.
AM: Yikes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Well, one has oxygenated blood, and one has deoxygenated blood. So, anyway, I don't know.
JS: I don't remember what [Inaudible 11:20].
AM: My Human Physiology class was long, long ago.
JS: She's usually wearing a white kimono. Though, other legends will describe her as nude.
AM: Okay.
JS: Which if you see a nude woman on a blizzard, maybe --
AM: Not good.
JS: -- maybe avoid.
AM: Not good.
JS: I – your instinct will be to be nice and help that woman, but probably best to avoid.
AM: If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
JS: If you need another identifier, Amanda, look around her in the snow. If you see any footprints, you're good, because Yuki-onna does not leave footprints.
AM: Right.
JS: She is said to float above the snow. And, in some stories, she doesn't have any feet at all.
AM: Ah, terrifying. And, also, if she – if she were kind of hovering above the snow and she were a warm-blooded creature, like maybe she like melt a little trail kind of snake style, you know, or something behind her.
JS: It's adorable.
AM: I know. Adorable. But, yeah, I don't like that one bit. That sort of eerie – I don't know – the absence of like a body trail. You know what I mean?
JS: Right.
AM: Like that – that's always the scariest.
JS: And, in Japan, typically, spirits or just undead beings in general will not have feet. It is a very common distinguishing factor from a living person versus a non-living person, which is interesting.
AM: I'm thinking back to Spirited Away and remembering a lot of kind of floating adorably bobbing spirits. And I hope that they all have like cute little just like the body trails off somehow endings instead of like a horrible amputated one. But, as just a feature that the spirit just kind of, you know, floats and doesn't make contact with the Earth, like that is kind of beautiful and seems practical as well.
JS: Yeah. Especially for a creature that is floating around in the snow, where it's very obvious, you know, concept that one would leave footprints in the snow, but one does not when they do not have feet.
AM: Yeah. It's like a Hallmark card gone really wrong. You know, the like – the like – the waves will wash away the trails of your feet on the sand and like whatever it is.
JS: And Jesus was the one who carried you the whole time.
AM: Yeah. Oh, no. You got it. You got it. We just solve Facebook. That's it.
JS: I got you there. This appearance is very striking, but it makes sense when you think about what the origin of the Yuki-onna is supposed to be.
AM: Tell me.
JS: It is the spirit of someone who has perished in the snow frozen to death themselves.
AM: Makes a lot of sense.
JS: Yeah. So, logically, we're gonna think about a spirit that embodies their own death, which I feel like we see that a lot in Western culture to our idea of ghosts. Once a ghost dies in a particularly tragic way, they kind of embody that tragic nature.
AM: Yeah. And that moment, whatever it was, of death, you know, was so kind of transformative and overshadowing of the, the many other years of their life before that. That's the kind of loop they get stuck in, which I don't know why this has never occurred to me. But that strikes me as a really poignant metaphor for trauma.
JS: Yeah. I wanted to talk about that a little bit.
AM: Okay. I’ll – I’ll --
JS: No, no, no. Well, we'll talk about it now. Let's do it.
AM: Okay. Good. I don't wanna usurp your timing.
JS: You're not stepping on my toes. Don't worry.
AM: But, you know, in, in lots of really unfair and impractical ways, moments of trauma overshadow the many other months and years of life, you know, that, that you hopefully live that are happy. And, and a lot of the time whether it's PTSD or just other kinds of, you know, learning to live with trauma and to work through it, you know, you do feel trapped and defined by it. And, and like, you know, your – your whatever body is changed forever. Your mind is changed forever. Your perception of the world and that idea that, that a ghost would be just kind of caught in a cycle. Wow. Like that – that's just really striking.
JS: Yeah. And I'm reminded too of the concept of violent deaths in society.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So often, someone’s like really tragic or really violent or just, you know, sudden death that defines our memory of them, especially --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- a collective memory if we're thinking about someone – if we see someone on the news that, unfortunately, was murdered or something like that, that's how they exist in our memory.
AM: Right.
JS: Instead of, you know, potentially, all the good that they did or, potentially, you know, the lives that they changed.
AM: Exactly.
JS: And it's kind of really sad that, you know, this, this person who has lived – maybe not a complete life, but a life --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- is being defined by the one tragic thing that ended it.
AM: And it really is – you know, the news cycle is part of that, where, you know, if a person's name is published in the paper, it will often be just the obituary, you know. Or, if like an article is written about them, it will be because of this one defining thing. And, as hokey as it sounds, the sort of antithesis to that is like a gratitude journal, you know, or – which I've employed in my own life or just – whether it's a meditation app or just a thing that you do every morning or in prayer, where you think about like, you know, one thing or three things I'm grateful for today. And it's a way of like making, making real like images and moments in your memory of not just the bad things that you can't help but commit to that like a canon of like moments of your life, but also taking the time to like make little mental snapshots or write them down like a page through later of things that are really defining in a good way.
JS: Yeah. No. I completely agree. And I think that, if we didn't think of kind of fame and what defines us by, you know, the methods that we do; being on TV, being in the news, that sort of thing.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I think that we might be a lot more grateful for the people in our lives and, you know, around us, and the people that we don't know very well. Just grateful for their actions.
AM: Yeah.
JS: You know what I mean?
AM: Yeah. And I'm thinking about Anubis now as well.
JS: Oh.
AM: Or, the idea that, you know, the real weighing of like the sum total of a person, where everything counts. And, at the end of the day, like the tick goes one way or the other. And it's not just the – you know, the last year or the last moment or the, you know, headspace or morals with which you died. But it really is like, you know, unbalanced, you know, neutral, good, bad, and then let's see.
JS: So, I guess we can make the argument in that case then that the Yuki-onna gets the short end of the stick basically compared to --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- Egyptian afterlife mythology.
AM: I know I always thought about that in Harry Potter as well. Like who does Nearly Headless Nick want to be haunting this? You know, like does Moaning Myrtle want to be stuck in bathrooms? Like what keeps the spirits there? What is their like geographical range? Do they go to a place that was significant to them in life or only one that was proximate to their death? You know, like kind of – what how does that whole mechanic work? But ghosts are I think fundamentally tragic, you know, because they, they really are defined by the thing that like took their identity away from them.
JS: Yeah, And I kind of feel bad for Yuki-onna, because they're literally being defined by their death. And we're thinking of someone who probably died, you know, scared and alone --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- and cold, obviously. And they come back as something that people are afraid of.
AM: Yeah. And seeking warmth too. Like --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- as soon as you kind of made that reveal in your story, I thought like, “Oh man, how sad that like the spirit just wants to like get to a warm place and relax and have a meal. And like, you know, put, put their metaphorical feet up for a second.”
JS: Right. And the problem with the story too is that that's a threat to them.
AM: Yes.
JS: If they're in the instance where it's the wife who takes a hot bath, that's the end of her.
AM: Oh, too much heat will like dissolve them.
JS: Yeah. So, as much as they're searching for that --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- it can punish them.
AM: I know.
JS: So, searching for a normal life punishes the spirit.
AM: I know.
JS: How fucked up is that?
AM: I know. It's like addiction too. Like, you know, pursuing the, the thing that you think will solve all the problems only, only compounds the problem.
JS: Oh.
AM: Yikes.
JS: Okay.
AM: It's almost like our stories are reflections of the things that affects and take up mind space in humanity.
JS: I know that's crazy, right?
AM: You know. Just, just little myth things.
JS: Oh, just a little myth things. So, there's another story – another version of the Yuki-onna story. And that's the story of the Tsurara-onna. And that is the icicle woman.
AM: I am so stoked to hear about this. But, speaking of icicle, I need a bit of a refill. And I have some very cool round whiskey ice in the freezer.
JS: Sounds about right. Let's go.
Midroll Music
AM: Our sponsor this week is Tab for a Cause. Julia, what is Tab for a Cause?
JS: Tab for a Cause is really simple. It is a browser extension that shows you a pretty photo when you open a new tab and an ad. And that ad raises money for charity. So, you just do your thing on the internet, and you can raise money for a good cause.
AM: It is really magical. And it’s one of those things that's like, “Wow. Why, why doesn't this happen all the time? Like it's a really perfect marriage.”
JS: Yeah. Why are we constantly doing it?
AM: I know. And, and the folks there at Tab for a Cause are giving us a chance to track how much money our listeners are raising for charity, especially this time of year. I know it's, it's, at least for me, a really great time to think about all the ways that I am lucky, and all the ways that I can give back to others. So, in addition to supporting charities that, you know, I find to be really valuable, I really enjoy this kind of effortless way to raise money for a good cause. And you can do that by joining us and downloading the Tab for a Cause extension at tabforacause.com/spirits.
JS: And these pictures are so pretty. It's a win-win situation.
AM: It really is. So, that's tabforacause.com/spirits. But, now, let's get back to the myth.
JS: So, the Tsurara-onna, the icicle woman.
AM: Wooh.
JS: So, the Tsurara-onna was once an icicle. Bear with me.
AM: I wasn't gonna say anything, because I knew that you would take me there.
JS: That became a human woman, because of a single man who was lonely.
AM: Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I'm gonna just restrain my memory for a second and imagination, and let you take it away.
JS: Yeah. Don't worry. We're gonna talk about it.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, when a man gazes longingly at a strong – I just can't.
AM: You cracked yourself up.
JS: Yeah, I did. So, this is the way I wrote these notes. So, what a man gazes longingly at a strong beautiful icicle hanging from the roof and reflects on his loneliness saying to himself, “I wish I had a wife that was as beautiful as this icicle.”
AM: Okay, okay, okay. So, let's just go through that list, right? Like translucent, comical, much wider at the top than at the bottom, probably lethal if it fell on me, and probably has some ants frozen in it.
JS: Okay. That one was oddly specific at the end. So, a Tsurara-onna will appear shortly after that. After he's gazed at this icicle and said, “I wish I had a wife just like this.”
AM: I’m just picturing like, like Byron on a cliff, you know, in one of those like really classical, you know, paintings and just being like my, my kingdom for an icicle.
JS: Oh, no.
AM: My icicles for a wife. My wife for an icicle. I'm sure some people wish that their wives were turned into icicles. Okay. I'm getting too deep.
JS: Or vice versa.
AM: I'm getting too deep.
JS: Okay. So, the Tsurara-onna will appear, but you won't know that she’s a Tsurara-onna. She'll just appear as a very pretty woman.
AM: Oh, oh. If it's too good to be true, it probably is, y'all.
JS: The only problem is you'll fall in love with her. But, once the winter snow melts and the icicles have all disappeared, so does the beautiful woman.
AM: No.
JS: Unlike the Yuki-onna, she is, for the most part, very kind and warm and very loving.
AM: Oh.
JS: But a relationship with the Tsurara-onna will end in tragedy regardless, because, as I said, once spring comes, she disappears.
AM: Okay. Are we talking like heartbreak tragedy or like end of life tragedy?
JS: Depends on the story.
AM: All right. Take me from best case scenario to worst case scenario.
JS: So, much like the Yuki-onna, she is very susceptible to heat.
AM: Okay.
JS: Here's the story. So, during a marriage ceremony, the Tsurara-onna goes into the kitchen to warm up some alcohol, but doesn't return for a while.
AM: Retro.
JS: Unable to wait any longer, her husband goes to the kitchen, but, instead of seeing the woman there, he sees only a soaked kimono for the woman has a – who was made of an icicle has melted in the heat of the kitchen.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: Yeah. It's a little sad.
AM: Oh.
JS: Let's go violent now.
AM: Okay.
JS: There's one story where she does something questionable. And this is the story. So, she marries a man, but disappears when spring comes.
AM: Right.
JS: Typical. The man believes that his wife has run away from him and mourns his loss, but eventually moves on. And, before winter comes again, he marries another woman.
AM: Oh, man, good for him.
JS: Yes.
AM: Slash, probably bad for him in the end.
JS: The Tsurara-onna returns only to discover that she's been betrayed, and her love has married another.
AM: To be fair, she did completely disappear without a trace.
JS: It wasn’t her choice.
AM: Okay. All right. All right. She can’t say like, “Hey, babe, it's getting warm. The, the spring birds are trilling.”
JS: Okay. But hear my argument. What if Tsurara-onna doesn't realize that she's an icicle woman?
AM: That's the most tragic option of all. I don't want to think about it.
JS: Because, imagine in the first story --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- why would she go into the kitchen and do all that stuff if she knew that the heat was going to kill her?
AM: Yeah. Or like she's just fully inhabiting the fantasy.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, like, like realizing theoretically what that could do but, but just sort of so swept up in like the, the highs and lows of human sensation.
JS: Oh, man. It's like that shitty show Dollhouse.
AM: I never watched Dollhouse.
JS: Oh, it's the Joss Whedon one, where, basically, people have their memories completely erased. And then people pay to put the memories of their loved ones into these puppets – these dolls.
AM: Oh, shit.
JS: And like, you know, do stuff with them.
AM: Yikes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Jules. Joss
JS: Or it's like Westworld.
AM: Or, yeah, that's true.
JS: Which also has some problems, but it's also a great show or is a great show as opposed to Dollhouse. Yikes.
AM: It's worth watching.
JS: Anyway. So, the end of the evil Tsurara-onna Story.
AM: Oh, yes. Comes home. Realizes there’s another wife. What happens?
JS: Yes. The new wife outside hears a scream from the man. And, when she finds him again outside, she finds the man has been impaled through the neck with an icicle.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And did she turn back into an icicle? Or does she use an icicle for just like dramatic irony?
JS: She's disappeared.
AM: One never knows.
JS: One never knows.
AM: Unresolved narrative ending.
JS: So, I guess I want to talk about, for the Tsurara-onna one --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- why male fantasy suck.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yes.
JS: Do you wanna start or should I?
AM: Please, Julia, take me away.
JS: So, let's talk about the fact that, first of all, his like deciding quality and women are strong, beautiful icicle women.
AM: Clear.
JS: Clear translucent. Super --
AM: Yeah. Like I mean there's pale. All kinds of metaphorical resonance already, right? Like has no secrets. You can see through them. Like no past, no like gritty bits in the middle that hurt when you expose them, you know.
JS: Right. But, in the end, choosing a woman who, you know, is sensitive and can disappear, you know, when, when shit gets real, aka, when it turns into spring and they can't exist anymore. Sort of a fleeting romance. So, problem number one, you're looking for something that's not going to last, unless you live in Antarctica I guess.
AM: I mean they don't know it when they – when they – when they wish it into existence though, right?
JS: No, I guess not. It's – it has to be from I supposed a good lonely place and not just like, if I look at that thing and I wish really hard, it's gonna become a woman.
AM: I don't know. I mean my, my read on it initially was like nothing, nothing is without strings. And the more like effortless and like meant for yourself and requiring nothing and no sacrifice, it's like – it's like the song Marry Me a Little, right, Company, where it's like I want to take all the things that are convenient, and none of the things that require effort. I want to be, you know, pleased by you, but not dependent on you. Kind of all of these – all these things. Like that sucks, and that's not going to last. And, you know, if, if all you want from a partner is something that is aesthetically pleasing --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- and like convenient --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- I mean I guess, for some people, that might work. Like the folks living in the Antarctic. But, for the rest of us, you know, it's when shit gets like steamy, and gritty, and, and gross, and difficult that the real like goodness begins.
JS: That's 100 percent true. And I like that you brought up Company as an example for that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because, honestly, the idea of, you know, loving for convenience sake and not loving for the sake of all of – all of it – all of the love, and tribulations, and hardship.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That it deserves to be fleeting, and deserves to not last, and deserves only to last for the winter, and not when the heat gets turned up.
AM: At the same time though, like there's nothing wrong with a fling. You know, like if it's a fling and, at the end of it, the person goes, and like it's the anti-Persephone, where you're just there for the winter, and, and like goodbye. That's also fine, you know. But it's – I don't think you can think like that can’t last in the form in which you begin them.
JS: This is the Japanese like mythology version of what's that thing called when people become couples right before winter, because they don't want to be lonely.
AM: I don't know. But I know what you --
JS: Cuffing? Cuffing. It's called cuffing.
AM: No. What does that mean?
JS: Google it really quick. I think that's what it's called.
AM: It sounds like a sex myth.
JS: I don't think it is.
AM: Okay. It's an urban dictionary. So, it must be real. Cold weather.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Now, I know. But why, why is that a thing?
JS: It's, it's a thing because people --
AM: Oh, like – oh, cuffs like tied down by a serious relationships.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Oh, good. Because incarceration is my favorite metaphor for love.
JS: Uhuh, exactly.
AM: Sigh.
JS: So, do you wanna give the audience a definition of what cuffing is, Amanda?
AM: It's when – it's when, before winter, people become couples because they want to like feel a sense of permanence in the world.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Sigh.
JS: Sigh.
AM: But, no, I mean it is like they say in Company, which is an excellent musical folks about a guy --
JS: Everyone should be watching right now.
AM: -- who is on his 35th birthday, right?
JS: I believe so.
AM: Yeah. And like all of his married friends with their many, you know, flaws and, and positive attributes trying to like convince him to get married. They say, “Robert, you have to want to marry somebody, not just some body,” you know. And that very much as icicle wife. It’s like look at all of those bodies. I will take one, you know, instead of – instead of a – I don't know something specific.
JS: Yeah. And I think I just – I get frustrated with the idea of – maybe it's because I've been in a relationship for almost nine years now.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I get frustrated with the idea of looking for something easy.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because love takes effort. That's just how it is. Love takes effort. And you can't just wait for the picture perfect person to come into your life, because chances are that person does not exist. And you have to put an effort into loving someone. It's not just something that, you know, exists inside of you. It's something that you work for every single day.
AM: Yeah. Like it might start effortless. And then, through work, it becomes sustainable. Or, it might start complex and, through effort, feels effortless.
JS: Yes.
AM: You know, like – and things click into place. And I also don't want to like passing judgment of flings. Again, I have enjoyed --
JS: No, no, no.
AM: -- a fling everyday.
JS: There's nothing wrong with flings.
AM: Super good.
JS: But the whole point of this story is he's wifing up this woman.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, it's not just a fling. If it was just a fling --
AM: Yes. Yes.
JS: -- I wouldn't have any issue with it.
AM: That's fair. And, also, like there, there isn't anything categorically wrong with like being alone, or with loneliness, or solitude, or people who are single like. And, and it's not worth settling with something just to settle for something. You know, that like, if you had waited and halfway through the winter, in like the doldrums of January, after the New Year when there's nothing more worth celebrating and until freaking, who knows, summertime. You know, you go to the local Bed and Breakfast to like have a pint and you meet someone there that you've never would have talked to otherwise. But you were the only two people in the bar. You know, like --
JS: And Amanda behind the bar nods approvingly.
AM: Yes. Yes, I do. Wearing my like a buffalo check – printed skirt.
JS: Yes.
AM: Little home on the prairie.
JS: Right.
AM: What’s it called? A little house in the prairie style.
JS: Yep.
AM: Anyway. And like that is where you find true love. You know, it's, it's not like, “Oh, okay. Fine. This person knocked on my door for some hot water. And here we go.” Also, just the idea of like the wind swirling outside carrying snow and something warm happening in a home reminds me of James Joyce's story, The Dead, which every English or Literature major, like must read several times in the course of their degree.
JS: I have never read that.
AM: It's a short story about a dinner party essentially in Dublin --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- or in Ireland somewhere. And, as is the case with Irish literature, there are secrets. There is betrayal. There is a quiet resigned acceptance of one's life.
JS: Cool.
AM: And, at the end, there's a carriage ride.
JS: Wonderful.
AM: And just the idea that like, when you're holed up for the winter, stuff comes out. And that –I don't know – just, just like confining people to a space. Like everyone is seeking the same thing. Like you're seeking warmth, and connection, and entertainment, and understanding, you know, of yourself from others. And, in the course of that just like desperate yearning, like, you know, like puppies running toward a water bowl or like, you know, people gravitating toward a fire or a, you know, thing of free stuff. You know, there's going to be some toes trampled on. And this seems like such an extreme version of that, where, you know, a ghost's just kind of self – I don't know – involved in like relentless and probably, you know, totally, like unintentional seeking of the thing that they were deprived of when they died. Like they're seeking an antidote to their death.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know – and that will sometimes have consequences for the living. It's just like – ugh, it's just so – it's so like capital R, Romantic. You know, like it's so – it's so extra.
JS: Yeah. It is very extra. And I just – I liked the idea – I don't like the idea, but I feel bad for the Yuki-onna in particular.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because it's a character that – not even a character. You have to assume that it's based on some sort of, you know, real life experience that someone had. They found a woman who had frozen to death in the cold.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But, all of a sudden, this spirit is now resigned to fill a role that they probably had no intention of filling.
AM: I know. They're trying to like to walk home, right?
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, and got caught, you know, in the elements.
JS: Yeah. And, so, when you're looking at the Yuki-onna, I think it's a good reflection to kind of look at the roles that society puts us in.
AM: Right.
JS: And how not to get stuck.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, the Yuki-onna, you know, dies tragically and is forced to basically relive that tragedy and then force that tragedy upon others.
AM: Right.
JS: And that's just so fucked up. It's, it's one of those stories that definitely makes me mad kind of thinking about it and reading it, because think of it like – I don't know – the way that certain people who are abused tend to become abusers.
AM: I mean, yeah. like we, we repeat the cycles that we grew up in that were perpetrated upon us or modeled to us.
JS: Right.
AM: You know, unless you actively intervene, it's just gonna repeat itself. Like that's how behavior works.
JS: And it's really interesting, because, if you look at the Yuki-onna, she definitely is trying to break that cycle. So, in the stories where she's trying to get warm, where she's trying to escape and not have to suffer in the cold any longer, the story where she gets into the warm bath, and she just dissolves into icicles, or where she's just trying to become a wife to someone and to not have to experience the loneliness of outside any longer. It's just this sort of beautiful, but tragic idea that, even when we feel certain roles, we want what isn't part of that. And it can become our demise, because either society says, no, you can't have that or we fall into our own sort of self-created abyss.
AM: Yeah. And that's, sometimes, to break a cycle or to challenge a thing or to like fully reckon with the – this like appearance of your demons, you know, you have to like look at the things square on. And, hopefully, you know, with the aid of a therapist or whether you're doing like immersion therapy if it's a phobia, or you're, you know, doing EMDR or really interesting like therapeutic techniques where you either talk through or relive or kindof try to change the shape of the – or the direction of the way that like a traumatic event occurred. Like, you know, you go back and you kind of take control of that narrative. Sometimes, it is like – it is just going back to the thing that hurt you the most. You know, that, that is the thing that, that helps you. Or, it's, you know, if you were abused growing up, it's being like the kindest and most gentle and most loving person you can be, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Or, if you had violence perpetrated upon you, it's being, you know, super careful to be only a positive influence to others. Like it – you know, it's, it's the Yuki-onna. Like seeking heat when she died from lack thereof. And like I think that is some of the best sort of character arc stuff that I love to hear about whether it's in novels or in interviews, or just like people that I talked to in life. It’s people who, you know, for all intents and purposes and from the outside, life should have gone one way. And, through just like the force of will and introspection and wanting to be different, they chose the complete opposite path. And like there's nothing harder, and, to me, like nothing more divine than doing that.
JS: I really like that. And that's a really good perspective for just the individual person's experience that can parallel a Yuki-onna. I'm vaguely reminded historically, if we wanna kind of go to there, of the suffragist movement.
AM: Yeah. Wooh.
JS: And the idea that these women were expected to be mothers and wives and could be mothers and wives, but also, you know, were fighting for their right to vote so much so that they were punished by the government. You know, so many suffragists were put in jail for trying to get their right to vote. And we just – this year was the 100th anniversary of white women being able to vote. Not, not all women obviously, because --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- you know, early feminism was not intersectional feminism. And that kind of sucks, but --
AM: And if a feminism isn't intersectional, it ain’t feminism.
JS: Exactly.
AM: Hot take.
JS: Hot take.
AM: Or nonviolent protest --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- and sit-ins, you know, and, and kind of all of the tactics that were used in the US to begin the struggle toward racial equality.
JS: Yeah. And, so, in this situation, being a member of society, but going against it because you know you deserve better, because you aren't – you know, aren't what they say you are.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That, that is worth fighting for and, even when, you know, some suffer, whether it is jail or, you know, persecution or the Yuki-onna, you know, dissolving into hot water, it's, it's a – it's all worth the cause. It's all perpetuating or breaking the cycle and not perpetuating these systems of oppression any longer.
AM: Damn that got deep.
JS: Yeah. Sorry. I didn't mean to go that deep. Whoops.
AM: Also, like – I don't know – desire women who are more complex than a see-through phallic object.
JS: Probably for the best.
AM: Probably for the best.
JS: Which she gets a bad rap too, because if she was created solely for that and she still can like feel and have emotions and get angry about her husband moving on from her.
AM: Yeah. Like against all odds --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- she like becomes an actual being.
JS: Yeah. She's like that one character in Westworld, who I can't remember the name right now.
AM: Decides to go against her programming.
JS: Yes, I love it.
AM: I know. And I know. Like nobody did anything wrong. Like, you know --
JS: I know.
AM: They – like the, the – I, as the innkeeper, like gave the lady some stew --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- and a blanket. And I'm gonna guess how you did grab her hand without asking.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I'm sorry, Yuki-onna.
JS: She didn't really punish you. That was just a side effect of you touching her.
AM: No. I just accidentally killed her.
JS: Well, no, you didn’t kill her. She just disappeared. She didn't like --
AM: Ooh, melt?
JS: Yeah. She didn't melt or anything.
AM: Oh, good.
JS: She just, you know, disappeared out back into the --
AM: Okay. Okay.
JS: -- the blizzard where she belongs.
AM: Thank you for absolving my fear.
JS: No, I didn't want you think you murdered the poor woman. It’s okay. Your Bed and Breakfast is not going to be looked at by the police at all.
AM: Yeah. I like flip over the flipboard on like X number of days since an accidental murder. We're at 110, y'all. We're doing real good.
JS: That's really bad that you have to have that there. I would not want to stay that Bed and Breakfast.
AM: And like, if you think that the song Marry Me a Little is a really good guide toward what you want in life, question your assumptions a little bit.
JS: I'm so sorry, but you're wrong.
AM: And then watch Raul as far as his performance of being alive in 2004 Company revival – 2008. And, and just cry, and then put it on repeat. And then watch Human Hannibal and also cry. And then admire their pure love.
JS: It's so, so very good. Also, Pushing Daisies. He's adorable in Pushing Daisies.
AM: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I just started The Good Place. It’s so – like it reminds me of [Inaudible 40:10].
JS: We got talk about that a little bit
AM: Pop culture with Amanda and Julia.
JS: I'm so proud of you. Every once in a while, you make a bunch of pop culture references that I'm very happy about, and that was one of those moments.
AM: Listen, character growth. It's a thing.
JS: I'm so proud.
AM: Spirits Podcast.
JS: Spirits Podcast.
AM: Remember y'all.
JS: Stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merch on our website spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/SpiritsPodcast, for all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, director’s commentaries, and patron-only live streams.
JS: And, hey, if you like the show, please share this with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil