Episode 35: Wonder Woman and the Amazons (with Greg Rucka)
/We leave the world of men and enter Paradise as we sit down with Greg Rucka, head writer of Wonder Woman for DC. We discuss comic books as mythology, dig into the historical roots of Wonder Woman and the Amazons, and revel in the super queer nature of paradise. Join us to find out just how scared of powerful women the Greeks really were! A blog post version of the episode is also available here.
Find out more about Greg Rucka and his work at GregRucka.com or on Twitter @RuckaWriter. For more on the Amazons of the DC Universe, aka the Amazons of Themyscira, click here. The splinter group Greg mentions is the Bana-Mighdall.
Amanda’s new show is Join the Party! Subscribe in Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Soundcloud, Spotify, Acast, or any other podcast player. They’re on Twitter, FaceBook, and Instagram @JointhePartyPod, and you can read more about the show at jointhepartypod.com.
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on Apple Podcasts to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. To read up on us, listen to us on other podcasts, or send us a note, just head on over to SpiritsPodcast.com.
Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome Spirits Podcast Episode 35: Wonder Woman and the Amazons, with Greg Rucka.
JS: Guy's, I've been planning this --
AM: Woooooo.
JS: I've been planning this for so long since last October. And I'm so glad you are finally gonna listen to this thing.
AM: So, Greg Rucka is the writer of Wonder Woman.
JS: Yes.
AM: He writes Wonder Woman for DC.
JS: He writes the Rebirth Series of Wonder Woman.
AM: And we are so freakin' pumped to have him on the show talking about the mythology of comic books, the mythology of Wonder Woman, about the Amazons, about, as a writer, how he like adapts actual mythology to writing in this world.
JS: And his own experience growing up loving mythology.
AM: Yeah. And also the like hella queer nature of Wonder Woman, which you know that I'm here for it.
JS: Yeah. Amanda is totally here for that.
AM: This is like a perfect present Julia has given me.
JS: So, we're going to start out this episode with some background information on the Amazons in mythology as well as the origins of Wonder Woman and kind of where Greg came into the comic series. And then you'll be able to listen to this incredible interview with Greg.
AM: Yeah. We talked about like fuckboys in Greek mythology, Wonder Woman's queerness like I said, and what is next for the DC Universe. Like what he's kind of doing to that from mythology.
JS: What, what grounds he's trying to lay for in the mythology.
AM: I know. And like what a cool career and like industry too to like --
JS: Oh, yeah.
AM: -- just constantly like leave little threads for future people to pick up on.
JS: I love it. It's great.
AM: It's so much fun.
JS: So, we love this episode. And, if you do, too, it would be amazing if you could share it on Twitter or Facebook or wherever you find cool stuff.
AM: And, speaking of heroes, like the segue, Jules?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Welcome to the newest members of our Patreon family: Taylor, Judy, and Emily. Welcome aboard.
JS: And thanks to thanks to Jess, Derek, Page, Debra, and Dearbhla (dar-vluh), who upgraded their pledges.
AM: Yeah, guys. Thank you so much for upgrading. We are really, really excited to be doing live streams now with our $10 and $15 patrons. So, if you want to hang with us and have us answer your questions and talk about whatever topics you want, read poems, or whatever, you can definitely hit us up on Patreon. But thank you. Four million, gillion thank-yous to our Supporting Producer level patrons: LeeAnn, Shannon, Phil, Catherine, Kristina, MCF, Megan, Sara, Katie, Derek, and Debra.
JS: You powerful warrior children of Zeus. Love it.
AM: Two more bits of housekeeping y'all. First, we are working on merch.
JS: Oh, my god, merch.
AM: Oh, my god, merch. If you or someone you know is a super talented designer, please get in touch with us. We're looking to commission a couple different shirts and tote bags. Maybe kind of creepy, kind of cool. We'll see where it goes.
JS: Or some pins and stuff.
AM: In addition to like the logoed t-shirts and things. So, we are at spiritspodcast@gmail.com or @spiritspodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, et cetera.
JS: And this week's recommendations, we actually both have the same one for you.
AM: We do.
JS: Amanda is starting a new podcast.
AM: Yay.
JS: Not, not that she's leaving Spirits or anything.
AM: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, no no.
JS: Never. Unacceptable.
AM: Never. I am – I am polyamorous with with these podcasts.
JS: Thank you.
AM: But I am starting a new show. And it is called Join the Party. It's a collaborative storytelling and role playing podcast, where I sit down with three friends to create a story together chapter by chapter, which we tell live to you on air.
JS: There may be dungeons. Possibly dragons.
AM: We are starting out with a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. But, wait, don't be scared. We are designing the podcast specifically to be fun, and interesting, and educational for people who have never done any kind of role-playing game before, which I haven't while still being true to the game that experienced players know and love.
JS: I know. We just started doing Dungeons and Dragons this year. And we love it so much.
AM: We love it so much, and like never had anyone teach it to us when we were younger. So, being able to hopefully bring new people into this world. If you listen to Spirits, you're gonna love this podcast. You know, join us. You're really, really gonna like it.
JS: I had a lot of fun kind of acting as a creative consultant --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- with our dear friend Eric Silver, who let me basically ruin his religion.
AM: Yes. So, the mythology and the religion of this world.
JS: Yeah. If you want to hear more from Eric, he's in episode eight of Spirits, the Golem. And he's an amazing storyteller and a lot of fun, and just an all around cool person.
AM: Yeah. We are creating this incredibly fun world that we get to just play in and like make stories about. And, if you've never, like I said, done any kind of gaming like this or listen to any kind of dandy podcasts, that's totally cool. We're gonna be releasing some special episodes just for beginners. Episodes one and two are going to have like tooltips, kind of voiceover where I'll pause the game every few minutes and tell you what actually happened, what our role is, what a critical hit is, what a check is. Stuff that, again --
JS: I mean why. Did you get a critical hit on your first episode?
AM: We did. We got three.
JS: Damn girl.
AM: I know. I know.
JS: That's a good day.
AM: The fates are with us.
JS: So, Amanda, where can people find Join the Party?
AM: Thank you very much for reinforcing my brand here, Julia.
JS: Your welcome.
AM: So, you can subscribe to Join the Party in any podcast app. Follow us on @jointhepartypod on any social media; Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. And you can read more about our characters, about the people I'm doing the show with, and sign up for email list at jointhepartypod.com. All these links are below.
JS: Amanda is playing an elvish rogue, and it's funny as hell.
AM: Yeah. I'm like a cool flippy assassin teen. It's very exciting.
JS: You're a teen?
AM: Oh, no. I'm a teenager. I --
JS: Oh.
AM: I get to like relive my teenage angst glory days. It's super fun.
JS: You're no rogue as a teen.
AM: We have – no, I was not. Im, I'm, I'm getting to live out that alternate reality --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- that flashpoint. So, I'm, I'm very excited about it. Listen to the episode. It's a joke. So, that's about it, right?
JS: Yeah, that's it.
AM: So, y'all enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 35: Wonder Woman and the Amazons with Greg Rucka.
JS: Greg Rucka.
AM: Greg Rucka.
Intro Music
JS: Amanda, we're talking about Wonder Woman today. And I wanted to give our listeners a little bit of feedback, a little bit of information about Wonder Woman and the Amazons.
AM: Yeah. I don't actually know much about her. All I know is the kind of outfit, the lasso. Was, was there an invisible plane?
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay. All right.
JS: It's mainly the invisible jet. Good job.
AM: Making sure.
JS: I'm very proud of you.
AM: Nice. Making sure I didn’t make that up from, from my, my girl, Abhorsen. Gotta make a Garth Nix reference in every episode. Just moving past it. But, yeah, so tell – tell me – I know – are the Amazon's real? ?Like is that a dumb question?
JS: We'll talk about it later.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, in Greek mythology, the Amazons are a race of warrior women. They're usually located according to different sources, either in the Ukraine or Iran. The name Amazon --
AM: Historically?
JS: Yes.
AM: Okay.
JS: Based on Greek historians, they place them in these areas.
AM: Oh, I see.
JS: So, the name Amazon is thought to come from two different routes. One is the old Persian word Ha-mazan or Hama-zama, which is warriors or to make war.
AM: Make sense. I mean these were like fierce ladies with like battle axes and like riding on horses and stuff, right?
JS: Oh, yeah. So, the Greek derivative is thought to mean manless or without husbands, but that's been disproven.
AM: Oh, good. I was – I was making a bit of an eye. I got the eye part here.
JS: I know. I know you are. In the Iliad, they are known as the Antianeirai or those who fight like men.
AM: Okay.
JS: Which I'm kind of into that.
AM: All right.
JS: So --
AM: A little bit like, you know, play like a girl, play like a boy.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, whatever.
JS: It's okay.
AM: Once you're defined by your badassery, I'm cool with that.
JS: It's pretty – I mean, for the Greeks, that's pretty good. We've talked about that. The Greeks are not good at this.
AM: They're not.
JS: So, according to some myths, no men were permitted to have sexual encounters or even reside in Amazon country. In order to maintain their population once a year, the Amazons would visit the Gargareans, which were a neighboring tribe. The male children who were born from this visit were either killed, sent back to their fathers, or exposed to the wilderness to fend for themselves.
AM: Okay.
JS: Girls were kept and raised by the Amazon mothers, who taught them agriculture, hunting, and the art of war.
AM: I'm not like pro killing babies for the record.
JS: I know.
AM: But like it's nice to hear the opposite of that.
JS: Yes.
AM: A bit of like the girl child being like left in – you know, in a river or some – or something sad place.
JS: Our standards are low right now.
AM: Standards are super low.
JS: So, other stories say that men who survived battles with the Amazon's were taken as slaves and used to keep the population stable.
AM: Also, not a fan of that. But, again, sort of interesting to see the, the – you know, normal kind of gendered version of that tale inverted. It's almost like the most extreme like boys camp, girls camp across the lake situation that you've ever seen.
JS: It's, it's basically the episode of Parks and Rec with the, the Swanson Boy Scouts and the --
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: -- Pawnee goddesses.
AM: Yes.
JS: Basically. So, one of the main stories that heavily features the Amazons is the Labours of Hercules.
AM: Okay.
JS: Do you know anything about the Labour of Hercules?
AM: Nothing.
JS: Okay. So, basically Hercules fucks up. He kills his wife and children --
AM: Oh, no.
JS: -- and has to make it up to the gods by going through these trials.
AM: Okay.
JS: So, one of these trials is he's tasked with obtaining the girdle of Hippolyta, who is the queen of the Amazons.
AM: Well, good luck.
JS: And that was given to her by her father Ares, the god of war. So, Hercules takes a bunch of friends with him. He sails off to the Themyscira, which is the land of the Amazons.
AM: Nice.
JS: Hippolyta is actually super into Hercules. He's a kind of impressive dude. He's a warrior. And she actually agrees to give him the belt. But Hera, you know, being Hera and wants him to fail, disguises herself and tells the Amazons that Hercules is planning on stealing their queen.
AM: Ooh.
JS: So, the Amazon warriors pursue Hercules on horseback. Hercules thinks Hippolyta double crosses him. Then he kills Hippolyta, takes the belt, and flees the land, because he's a dick.
AM: That's a pretty – that's a pretty shitty – like, you know, women hating women and like jealousy based tale.
JS: Well, that's what Hera is all about though.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Hera is all about the, "Oh, Zeus is having sex with this woman. So, I must turn her into a cow." That kind of thing.
AM: She's the most covetous, for sure.
JS: Yeah. She's – jealousy is her defining trait.
AM: Okay. All right. I'll let it slide.
JS: I know it’s not great. It's not great.
AM: I'll let it slide. We're going to get to Wonder Woman soon.
JS: Let's talk about the historical ideas of the Amazons really quick.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Oh, we're gonna talk about Herodotus a little bit during the interview with Greg.
AM: Yes.
JS: So, I just want to give a little context for that. So, the Herodotus historical reflections on the Amazon said that they observed ancient maternal customs, hunting on horseback with their husbands. going to war, wearing the same dress as men, et cetera. So, the women were said that they could not marry until they killed a man in battle --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- which I'm all about. Hippocrates, who is a different dude from Herodotus.
AM: Yeah, So, Herodotus basically like wrote a bunch of histories and about, you know, at – at his moment. Like the history before that.
JS: Most of them weren't true.
AM: Most of them were not true, because he was sort of like, "These are some stories of heard and, now, they’re history."
JS: It's, it’s basically – oh, what's the dude? Marco Polo. Marco Polo just heard a bunch of stories and then came back to Europe with like, "Here's what it's like in Asia."
AM: Here's some stories. Yeah. But, instead, instead of us knowing what actually was happening in those lands because Marco, you know, wasn't so long ago, this is like one of the only historical things we have from Herodotus. So, it's sort of like your senile grandfather telling you a bunch of stories. And like some of them maybe have some truth. And, so, you're like, "Okay, Grandpa. Like, please, keep talking to me."
JS: If you say so.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Then there's Hippocrates. And he claimed that they had no right breasts, that, when they were babies, the mothers would cauterize the skin so the growth would be arrested.
AM: So that they could what? Like have a sword belt or archery?
JS: For archery.
AM: Yeah. I mean it's so specific that that makes me think there might have been some truth to that.
JS: Maybe. But, also, there's been plenty of studies proven that the breast doesn't impede on pulling back a bow.
AM: Oh, I'm sure. But this is just like a kind of ritualistic and like traditional thing.
JS: Right. And, apparently, the muscle that would have gone to the breast actually goes to the arm and shoulder instead.
AM: I assume just so that it's not lumpy.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Not, not because it's not muscled.
JS: I know, it's --
AM: Aaaah.
JS: -- it seems silly to me.
AM: Who knows? But badass is the point and committed.
JS: Right. A little bit more about them, the Amazon river is named by Francisco de Orellana after the tribe of warlike women --
AM: Nice.
JS: -- which he supposedly encountered on the Amazon River and was like, "These are the Amazons." It wasn't. According to medieval historians, the Amazons created the battle-axe --
AM: Whoa.
JS: -- which I think is kind of cool.
AM: The battle-axe is so efficient. It must have been created by women.
JS: Yeah, of course. In Modern times, there's a group in the Ukraine known as Asgarda, who claimed to be the new tribe of Amazons and claim that the Amazons are their direct descendants, which makes sense because we just said they were either from Ukraine or Iran.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And, so, they teach the group a martial art that is based off of a technique called Combat Hopak. And the group is like 150 women.
AM: Whoa.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Sounds pretty cool.
JS: They even have an Amazon village museum that's set up in their village.
AM: Next time we're in Ukraine, let's go.
JS: That's where we're going. And all that is background to Wonder Woman. And I kind of want to give background on what Greg Rucka specifically has been doing with Wonder Woman. And it has a lot of – a little bit of comic book history. So, bear with me for a little bit.
AM: You mean lean in closer?
JS: Okay.
AM: Because this is fascinating.
JS: So, DC is doing a series right now called Rebirth. And, basically, what it is is merging two timelines that previously existed in the DC universe that were separated by the Flashpoint story in 2011.
AM: Okay.
JS: Basically, Barry Allen, aka The Flash, wakes up in a different timeline and has to go back in time and try and change things back to the way they were. In doing so, he severely alters the timeline, creating what is known as the New 52.
AM: So, it's sort of like an alternate reality within the DC universe --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- where different things happen to different characters.
JS: Right. So, in Rebirth, the timelines from pre-Flashpoint and the New 52 are merged together, creating a dual reality that is existing concurrently.
AM: Does Wonder Woman from the two timelines meet herself? Like how does that work?
JS: No, it's just the two realities have merged together.
AM: So, like stuff from each of them is true.
JS: Yes. So, basically what is happening right now is Wonder Woman series is going into her origin story, which is being told every other comic called the Year One series, which basically tells her new origin based on the Rebirth, the Rebirth timeline.
AM: Got it. So, like best of both and sort of retelling her from the beginning.
JS: Right, exactly. So, now, anyone, who knows anything about Wonder Woman, does know that she is the Princess of the Amazons.
AM: Nice.
JS: They are a woman tribe. So, obviously, we would think that like romantic and sexual relationships are established in that sort of world. But DC has not been super explicit about it, until Greg Rucka came in and basically said Wonder Woman is queer --
AM: Yehey.
JS: -- everyone knows that. And, so, we're really excited to have him on. But let's talk a little bit about the history of Wonder Woman, not Greg Rucka Wonder Woman, but just how she was created. So, she was created in the 1940s. Her creator was actually a dude named William Moulton Marston. And it was co-created with his wife Elizabeth Holloway Marston --
AM: Oh, nice.
JS: -- who were polyamorous.
AM: What?
JS: And Wonder Woman was actually inspired by their live-in girlfriend named Olive.
AM: What?
JS: Yep.
AM: That's so good. In the 40s?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Oh, my god.
JS: They were also super into BDSM, which is why you get a lot of bondage instances with Wonder Woman, including the --
AM: What?
JS: -- lasso and et cetera. Also, he invented the lie detector, which is why she has the Lasso of Truth. Yeah.
AM: Lasso of Truth. What? So many things here.
JS: So many things.
AM: If one of them was true, I would have been amazed. Whoa.
JS: Yeah.
AM: In the 40s.
JS: Yeah, in the 40s.
AM: I'm guilty of thinking about all people in the past as just like figures who like, you know, were born, married, had kids, and died.
JS: Sure.
AM: But like they got out to some shit and I love that so much.
JS: Yeah. Okay. So, what we need to know about Wonder Woman, is her origin really starts, in the 1940s at least, with her discovering a World War II soldier who washed up on the island of Themyscira.
AM: Oh, like in their – in their like Paradise [Inaudible 15:13].
JS: Yes. And the Amazon – the Amazon live in isolation from the world --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- In the DC comics.
AM: I mean. wouldn't you?
JS: Yeah. I mean it's a --
AM: The world just fuck it up.
JS: It's a Paradise Island.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And, so, Diana who is – that's her real name. She's not just – her name was not Wonder Woman.
AM: I guess I never thought about that. Diana. Okay.
JS: She is the daughter of Zeus and the Amazon's Queen, Hippolyta --
AM: Oh, shit.
JS: -- which we’ll talk about a little bit.
AM: What parentage.
JS: Also, if you recognize the name Hippolyta, it's because --
AM: Midsummer Night's Dream.
JS: Shakespeare. Yeah. I was gonna be like Shakespeare used it, but you beat me to it.
AM: Oh, no. We have done and seen Midsummer way too many times.
JS: We have. So, this makes her a demigoddess, which is super cool because she's Zeus’ child.
AM: Yeah. And, so, does she have like powers over regular Amazons?
JS: She has normal Amazon powers. And then she's gifted with powers from the gods and including flight and super strength, et cetera.
AM: Cool.
JS: Which she actually, in the Rebirth series, gets after she leaves Themyscira.
AM: Oh, wow.
JS: So, the assumption is this character who lived on an island full of women was just waiting for a dude to wash up on the shores, which is incredibly stupid. Basically, Diana really leaves the island, because she's given this diplomatic mission. And this is such an honor to her as a --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- warrior that she's able to go into the world of men and fight alongside these people.
AM: For sure.
JS: And this is World War II. So, obviously, we're very focused on battle during this period.
AM: Yeah. And like the world needs some intervention, you know.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, it makes total sense for like the princess, right? For like, like the daughter of the queen and of Zeus to, you know, kind of be their emissary out into the world to, you know, share the light and fight for justice and all of that. And, based on what we discussed with Greg, it seems like people think that she just like saw the first man that washed up and was like, "F this. I'm out of here. Goodbye Amazons. Out into the terrible fractured chemical warfare world of men." Like that's not the thing.
JS: No. She had a duty that she had to do.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She wasn't leaving for dick as Greg will tell us later.
AM: Listen guys, we, we don't drop so much profanity. But, in this case, like this, this joke is worth it. Just wait for it.
JS: Exactly. So, that is where we leave Wonder Woman right now in the Rebirth Series.
AM: Nice.
JS: She does a little bit of fighting gods and stuff. She fights Ares I think in the series pretty early on.
AM: Cool.
JS: And I just love it. But Greg Rucka will – but Greg Rucka will talk to us a little bit more about the more nuanced areas of Wonder Woman. And we're excited to bring you that interview. So, we're joined today by personally one of my favorite comic book writers of all time, Greg Rucka, who is currently writing the Rebirth Wonder Woman Series, which is excellent. You've heard me praise it on the podcast before. So, Greg thank you so much for joining us.
GR: I'm very happy to be here.
JS: We met last year at Comic-Con. And it's great that I – we finally got to sit down and have a conversation about Wonder Woman and the Amazons. It's gonna be great. Okay. So, I guess how I kind of want to start this off is I want to know how you got into the Wonder Woman lore, how you got into Greek mythology in general.
GR: I suspect – you know, I read some mythology growing up. I know for a fact that – when I was starting high school, I went to a private Episcopal College Prep. And the reading list – when I entered in, in eighth grade, you had a summer reading list. And one of the – one of the things on that list I remember was Edith.
JS: That was actually my first mythology book, too.
GR: Yeah. Though I know – I know I had uncovered the myths probably in far more watered down forms prior to that. And then, you know, I'm, Im, I'm a role playing gamer. I'm a tabletop gamers. So, you don't play D&D and not in some way connect with Greek mythology. I just – I'm not sure – I don't know if anybody's done that dissertation, but I'm pretty certain that one leads to the other.
JS: Oh, yeah. We actually just started our own D&D campaign --
GR: Yeah.
JS: -- like a couple of months ago. So --
AM: And, and the more we learn – the more we dig into mythology on Spirits, the more I realized that like human beings are telling so many similar stories over and over. And there are so many roots in Greek mythology for the stories that we know and love today.
GR Yes, absolutely. And I suppose you could argue that the root of those, those Greek myths run even further back --
AM: Yeah.
GR -- you know, that we have lost, with the oral tradition, where those stories were born. You know, comics are modern myths.
JS: Yeah.
GR: That's – you know, the, the English Lit. guy in me looks at them and goes, "Yes, this is what we are, you know, participating in. This is our – this is our modern extension of this – of this continuity of this continuum of this kind of storytelling. It's, it's clear, when you look back at a lot of the Ancient Greek texts, that there is an element of social propaganda at work. That, you know, it's clear that there is, at a certain point and in certain stories, a morality that is attempting – that they are attempting to promote.
AM: Yeah. It's definite right conduct --
GR: Yeah.
AM: -- and consequences for erring from that path.
GR: Exactly, for, for, for society. Don't have sex with your parents, for instance.
JS: Always a good choice.
GR: And I don't – you know, I, I – so, it's, it's harder I think today, you know, in 2017 to look and say what does the myth need to be about, are we drilling down on something specifically societal when , in point of fact, we're always talking about the same things. And, in many ways, we just end up finding a new way to say it or trying to. But one can argue that we – you know, there's, there's the great thing that Fitzgerald – there's a – there's a Fitzgerald quote that, that goes, "There only two stories Jack and the Beanstalk and Cinderella."
JS: Yeah.
GR: And that's it and everything.
JS: Yeah.
GR: It's just a question of how you tell it and how you dress it up, you know.
AM: Was there a myth that you really found yourself – I don't know – resonating with you early on when you were first discovering these?
GR: I – and it's funny because now that – now that I'm thinking about it, I remember seeing the original Clash of the Titans in --
JS: The classic one with the mechanical owl. Of course.
GR: Yes. I was always – there are certain bits that I've always gravitated towards that I just find more and more fascinating. And the older I get and sort of as you get the mature reader's version of them, they become even more interesting I think. I've always thought that, that Perseus' story was – I've always – I've always enjoyed it. I've always had incredible sympathy from Medusa.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: You, you have too.
GR: Yeah.
JS: She has such a sad story. And then her story ends with a dude coming into her house and chopping her head off.
GR: I mean just talk about – I mean she, she is the object lesson for the last thing you want is a god's attention.
AM: Exactly.
GR: I mean it just never ends well. She did nothing wrong.
JS: Yep.
GR: And, in point of fact, did everything right, you know. And you just l ike – you really can't --
AM: She was targeted in a temple. Like she was very there, and she's trying to do it right.
JS: There's nothing she could do.
GR: And she's faithful. You know, she's --
AM: Yeah
GR: It's not as if she was just – it, it's the equivalent of going in and seducing a nun, you know.
JS: It truly is. It truly is.
GR: But, okay, well, here's, here's, here's for Medusa, you know, who by every definition of good person is and then just – I mean just it goes downhill so badly. So, I've always – I've always had incredible sympathy for her. Icarus, --
JS: Oh, he's a good one.
GR: I've always – and I – and I have a memory of encountering Icarus fairly early. Maybe because the hubris lesson is, is an important one to give to precocious young children, you know.
JS: For sure.
GR: And then I never went in for Hercules. Hercules never did it for me.
JS: Well, he didn't you know, murder his wife and children --
GR: Yeah.
JS: -- in a mad rage. So, maybe not the best --
GR: Yeah, he kind of --
JS: -- for a role model.
GR: He kind of set, set me out right at the start there. I found him hard to empathize with.
AM: You know what's a much cooler myth? The Amazons.
JS: Way, way better.
GR: Well, again, depends on where you're standing.
JS: From the lady side.
GR: Yeah. Okay.
AM: Certainly.
GR: From the – from the Athenian male side, they kept you up all night.
JS: It's true.
AM: I mean that's fine.
GR: Yeah.
JS: I'm okay with that.
GR: Well, it was good on the scary bits. The problem was that when they stayed up and then when they completely sexualized it, it was something else.
JS: Yeah. That's that's the problem that we kind of come into, isn't it?
GR: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean there's a line in the Wonder Woman A where her and Minerva was arguing with, with a colleague about the Amazons. And I believe it's her colleague that says they were a vamp – they're a vampire myth. You know, they --
AM: Yeah.
GR: -- they're this sexy taboo. And there's a great amount of truth in that. You know, I mean, Herodotus – Herodotus didn't know what the hell he was talking about.
JS: Herodotus was never knew what he was talking about.
AM: He was half in dream. Yeah
GR: And I love that people turn and they go, "He's the authority." It's like, yeah, but that's literally like saying to Ted down on the corner who's shouting at you about, you know, the efficacy of his tinfoil hat is the authority on radio transmissions. You know, they do not necessarily go together. So --
JS: That's true.
AM: It is so fascinating though what – like what parts of those stories and what interpretations of the stories we have chosen to keep so central to humanity. You know, every time that we go into a new myth and Julia mentions a detail that's really obscure, I sort of try to look at it from a like anthropological perspective of like,"Why have – you know, has this reading or have these certain details survived so long?"
GR: Uhmm. Uhmm. Yeah. Well, it goes back to the core sort of – sort of what I was saying, you know, at the top, which is these are stories that speak to a relevance of the human condition and of, of, of us in society. So, why do we keep coming back to these things? And why – why these particular points sort of – sort of bring up? It's funny, you know, because when you were sort of baiting the book and saying what, what are your favorite myths and so on, I don't tend to think of the Amazons at this point as a myth. This is related to several things really, because the first time I wrote Diana, you know, it was 15 years ago. I really wanted to turn into that the DCU Amazons of Themyscira were derived from Herodotus' Amazons.
JS: Okay.
AM: Uhmm.
GR: I wanted to grant them that sort of martial history I think. And, at the time – and I remember arguing with Phil Jimenez, at the time, who's also not just drawn but written Wonder Woman and has devoted many, many hours of his life to thinking about these things as well. You know, he was very quick to point out they're not supposed to be Herodotus' Amazons.
JS: Right. Now, Herodotus' Amazons, just to give some context to our listeners, that's much more of a balanced society instead of just the matriarchal. I think Herodotus was the one that was like the Amazon woman couldn't marry until they had murdered a man in battle or something like that.
GR: Herodotus' Amazons are walking vagina dentata That's it. And it is --
JS: Yeah, pretty much.
GR: There's no other way to think of them. And I didn't want – and I hasten to say I mean we're talking to a guy who's, like I say, 15 years on, that's how I'm looking at them now. At that time, there were things there that I kind of – I really wanted to grab on to the historical moment. And Phil, you know, argued that they're not supposed to be. And it really wasn't until, you know, coming in for this run that I really understood what he was trying to tell me. Because what he was trying to say I think and that I didn't hear because, you know, I was young, and stupid, and full of myself was that Diana has to come from Paradise.
JS: Right.
AM: Uhmm.
GR: It is – it is fundamental to the character and the root of that myth. It has to be her growing up in Paradise and then leaving. The historical record, in so much as we have one, and the mythological record, in so much as thank you Herodotus --
AM: Somebody buy that guy a beer. Thank you for all that you've done.
GR: It – they, they, they, they refute that. So, it was important to me for this run to sort of set at what point can I – at what point can I have my cake and eat it too basically. Can I have a Themyscira that is Paradise? And can I also find a way to add that verisimilitude of these nomadic rampaging horsewomen, you know, who came, you know, potentially out of as far east as Mongolia and down to the [Inaudible 28:45] and, you know, were, were perfectly happy to live the lifestyle they live. And that, that myth is the myth that then the Greeks go, "Oh, my god, women!" Or, actually, it's, "Oh, my god, women with swords and they know how to use them!"
JS: Shocker of the century.
AM: Again, half fever dream, half just like you're – it triples up and you're super scared, you know.
GR: It, it is – I don't know how blue we can be, you know, on this podcast – on our podcast here.
JS: Go right ahead.
AM: We're supposed to be a drinking podcast so, you know --
GR: All right. Well --
AM: -- you're [Inaudible 29:20] assurance.
JS: You can swear as you want here.
AM: Yes.
GR: Pure. It's pure – it's softcore porn.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
GR: I mean that's what it is. It's the equivalent of turning on Cinemax, you know, 10 years ago and watching, you know, any of these almost – any of these movies where people are having sex, but you don't actually see much more than tops. You know what I mean?
JS: Yep.
GR: That's what a lot of this reads like now. It reads like here are these women, and they're scary, and they're powerful. And, and they will take you. And they will make you have sex with them. So, you can have it guiltlessly. It'll be great.
AM: Right. Sorry, honey I – you know, I was at sword point like --
GR: Exactly. I mean what was I supposed to do. There were eight of them. I had to hurt them.
JS: She needed children.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Truly.
GR: So trying to find, in the current run, not that – but trying to find, in the current run, a way to let Themyscira be what it needs to be for Diana's purposes to serve that myth.
AM: Yeah.
GR: But, at the same time, try to set up, you know, in the DC, DC mythology, there is a – there are a group of Amazon to split off. And they're referred to it as the Bana-Mighdall. And I kind of wanted to sort of set the stage. So, maybe we get these myths – these, these, these Herodotus based myth, myths off of – off of the Bana.
AM: That's pretty good.
GR: Like the post, post schism. So, one of the things actually – and I was setting this up in eighth. And, hopefully, one day, I'll have the opportunity to come back on the book and, and chase it down. It's that Barbara Ann think she's – thinks she's on the way. She's, she's trying to find Themyscira. But, actually, what happens is she's going the wrong direction. She's following the exodus. So, you know, she's following the group that left and then sort of created their own diaspora. And it's not until she reaches a certain point where, again, playing with mythology, Athena, basically, you know, manifests and says no. Turns her around. So, this --
JS: Athena usually has to step in.
GR: Yeah.
JS: We usually need a competent woman to step in.
GR: And Athena, Athena is always my favorite. Athena --
JS: Yes, of course.
GR: I mean everybody --
AM: She's the best.
GR: Yeah. Everybody loves Athena. And there's a reason for that. She's badass. And she comes with an owl. I mean, come on.
JS: Yeah. I mean that's just the best animal to have associated with you, too. How's it the best?
AM: They really are.
GR: Well, it grants her an immediate gravitas --
JS: It does.
GR: -- you know, if the wisest of the mythical animal is her familiar.
JS: I have a question for you, which I'm sure you probably get asked a lot. And this is actually kind of – I was – I kind of fell off the DC wagon for a while before I got back into the Rebirth Series.
GR: No.
JS: I know. I'm sorry. But, honestly, this interview that you did at the beginning of the series where you came out and said, "Oh, Diana, definitely queer." That's what made me pick up the book again. In your historical understanding of the Amazons, why do you think queerness plays an important role both in the historical context and in the modern day context?
GR: I will tell you my thinking with regards to Diana.
JS: Okay.
GR: And, and it was very deliberate. And it goes pretty much as follows – and there are sort of – sort of two parallel lines here. The first is that, if it had been possible at the time when her creators first wrote her 75 years ago, there's no question she would have been queer.
JS: Yeah.
GR: There's just no question.
AM: Yeah. Polyamorous, you know, gay-friendly couple. Yeah, for sure.
GR: There's just no doubt. So, number one, it's rooted in the DNA. All right. The society – the society wasn't ready for it, but, clearly, her creators were. So, that's number one. On the other is – and there's – I don't know how its calculation. It sounds like it goes back to the issue of Themyscira being Paradise. And I cannot imagine a paradise that does not allow for a full and loving relationship between consenting people.
JS: I love that. Thank you.
AM: I know.
JS: That's great.
GR: And that further needs to be – it can be platonic if platonic is what you want. It can be romantic if romantic is what you need. And it can be sexual. And it can be any combination of these things. But there is something that we Nicola Scott, who drew year one, and Liam sharp, who has been the stalwart artist on both, The truth and The Lies throughout. And I did a signing in a comic book store in Berkeley a little under a year ago. And one of the things that was said at that signing where we were having a discussion was that no Amazon looks at another Amazon and says they are Amazoning wrong.
JS: That's fair.
AM: Wow. Love that.
JS: I love that.
GR: And, and that, that's sort of the root about Paradise, right? So, that's the truth of it. Then there are plenty of – you know, there are roughly, in the mythology of the DC, 3,000 to 5,000 Amazon's living on Themyscira. And they've been there for thousands of years. And, if they've been there for thousands of years, it is quite possible that some of them have never actually cared to be romantically involved with anybody.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Heck yeah.
GR: Quite possible that several of them have been romantically involved with each other multiple times. And it's quite possible that there are viable polyamorous groups there. And there are monogamous couples there. And all of it has to work. The society has to be able to negotiate that. And it has to be able to negotiate it in a positive way. So, Diana has to come out of that. If that's the Paradise, then that's an element, right? That's her world. So, that's, that's one element. There's another element – and this is what I talked about calculation. Calculation, this comes up. There cannot be – when you talk about Diana's origin in 2017, any – you have to be deliberately misreading her story if you want to argue that she leaves Themyscira because of Steve's arrival.
JS: Right. That's just a load of nonsense.
GR: Yeah. She doesn't leave because she's found dick.
AM: Coronation correlation does not equal causation.
GR: Yeah.
AM: These are the deus ex machina.
GR: Yeah. No. So --
JS: Dick ex machina.
GR: Yeah. I'm gonna be – I'm gonna be crude about it.
JS: That's okay.
GR: But, at the end of the day, no magic penis is what makes her go, "Oh, I want to see the great big world."
JS: No.
GR: She wants to see the great big world. Steve opens the door. Her relationship with Steve needs to be sincere. Their love for each other has to be believable, but it is not the reason she leaves.
JS: Right.
GR: And that means, to me, that she has to have had – for her to be who she – who she supposed to be, she has to have been able to love and be loved.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Right. Right.
GR: And there's this whole – there was a whole thing about, you know, whether or not she's a virgin and so on like 15 or 20 years ago. There's an old tempest in a teacup about that, and it's absurd. Get rid of it. Nobody looks at Superman and goes, "What's, what – when was the first time he had sex?"
AM: Yeah.
JS: Exactly.
AM: Such a double a standard.
GR: It is. It's a gross double standard. And I really wanted to just get it all the way. Just get rid of all of it. And the idea then that here's wonder woman who's – you know, arguably her greatest superpower is love. One could argue it's compassion or, you know, fealty to the truth or anything. But one of the things in her portfolio, for instance, is love. She loves. She has compassion. And she has empathy. And, to imply that, therefore, she has never – you know, she was she was wrapped in cotton wool --
AM: Right.
GR: -- in a bottle. She never looked at anybody with desire. She was never looked upon with desire. And that, you know, didn't respond to it. One of the problems you run into with Wonder Woman – and I did an interview this morning, and it came up. And you hear it over and over again. And I have this – I have a colleague of mine who wrote a story recently, and their argument for the story was like, "Well, she's too perfect." And I hate that.
JS: That's so dumb.
GR: I hate that. I hate the idea that her grace and her wisdom somehow makes her boring.
AM: Yeah.
GR: When, in point of fact, what makes her heroic is her ability to be graceful and wise. Well, being human.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Absolutely.
GR: And that means we have to grant to her – and this will circle back to the Hercules thing. Because, as much as I don't like Hercules, I see that one of the things that's going on in the myth is he's incredibly flawed.
JS: Right.
GR: He is a flawed person, but he rises, right? You know, Hercules' story is not Ariadne's story. You know what I mean? Which is Hercules didn't get up one day and the gods said, "Hey, we're gonna make trouble for you." Hercules kind of comes out of the gate going, "I'm here to make trouble."
JS: He comes in swinging.
GR: Yeah. And, you know, poor Ariadne just gets up one day, and she's pretty. You know what I mean?
JS: Yeah.
GR: And, and, and, and, and Cupid goes, because mom I can't have that competition, you know. And, and, and Cupid then goes, "Oh my god. Well, I guess ignorance I should say."
AM: Yes. Yes.
GR: Because, you know, I think I'm in love and then tries to have this thing – tries to protect her, you know. He tries to – tries to create a situation where what happens to mortals who are noticed by gods does not happen to her, and it backfires horrible.
JS: It never works out.
GR: Exactly. But the – you know, Diana's heroism you'd have to believe in her. And that means we have to have those points of connection and the contact. We have to understand, you know, that she has love and she loves.
AM: And I think portfolio is such a great word to use as well. Because, whenever, you know, we see in in stories that like one great love that changes at all, you know, that is compelling in a certain way especially if you've experienced something like that. But, you know, without context, I think it's so much harder. Like, if you have a whole context of like relationships that matter to you with lots of different people and lots of different ways: platonic, romantic sexual combinations of various ones, you know, short affairs and long standing friendships or relationships, like that, to me, is what really is significant and compelling and like interesting and gives context to new relationships that we see characters experience. So, the sort of when like she had nothing and then Steve. You know, that's I guess like – I don't know – two dimensionally compelling. But I think, again, being able to like get different things from different people at different times to revisit them and change over it, you know, that's just so much more interesting.
GR: There is a different story to be told about a person who is raised in isolation and meets another person from --
AM: The Tempest.
GR: -- outside. It – yeah. And fall in love and, and, and, now, we have to – and then you can go for miles from there, because that – literature is full of that, you know. They – I stay with you and we live together here. I – you and I must escape your gilded prison.
AM: Yeah.
GR: I mean there's any number of ways to chase that. But, with Diana and what Diana goes on to do in the larger DC Universe, it undermines the character fatally if her reason for leaving home --
JS: Yeah.
GR: -- is because she fell in love with a guy. She – because if she does that --
AM: Yes.
GR: -- it's not a sacrifice. And this goes to origin stories and one of the things that we really wanted to hit this last year, which is it's easy to look at characters like Batman and Superman and see their sacrifice. Batman's obvious. He does it honestly every night.
JS: Batman is literally the most obvious here with the sack of things.
GR: Yeah. Superman, arguably, less so, but it's still there. But, with Diana, over the years, I think we have lost that, that element of sacrifice. And one of the --
JS: Right.
GR: Because that element of sacrifice was Paradise. She leaves her --
AM: Which is hard to conceive out to begin. Like, you know, we can't wrap our head around that sacrifice.
GR: And if she can go back home then whenever she wants.
JS: Right. Then it's just a compromise.
GR: Then it's not a sacrifice.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. It's a mild inconvenience. She, she needs to leave her home with the full belief that she will never see it again. And that means she will never see her mother again. She will never see her friends again. She'll never see the people that she has been lovers with or two again. She will never eat that food, taste that wine. She will never hear that music. She will never sleep in those beds. All of it's gone. It's gone when she leaves. And she has to turn into that willingly and, frankly, without hesitation. That grants her I think a heroism that to great many people I think we’ve lost.
AM: The thing that really struck me from the the Rebirth issues is that there isn't a whole lot of her pondering what to do. You know, it really – at least the first issue to me seems like she sees the situation and acts. And there's emotion about it perhaps. You know, there's, there's reflection afterward, but there isn't a whole lot of like, you know, being tormented and wondering what the right move is. Like she kind of knows.
JS: There's no Batman.
AM: There's no Batman. Yeah.
GR: You know, her angst is in a different place. And I think, if you want to grant her the sacrifice, then that the sacrifice has to have teeth. And that means that there has to be nights, you know, when she's sitting, you know, awake in her apartment or whatnot, watching this snowfall, you know, and going, "I really miss home. I wish I could call my mom."
JS: And I feel like, to a lot of people, that sacrifice feels much more personal. And I know that's what makes me really relate to Wonder Woman a lot more than I would Superman or Batman or to the Flash. It's just that emotional connection missing people in your life who are important to you and knowing you can always go back to them.
AM: Yeah. And Paradise is so personal, too. Like you can walk away from, from your paradise and into a situation that might objectively seem better – from the outside seem better. But, especially when Paradise is defined by like relationships and your personal like memory and taste and, you know, the things that you like and your comforts, it's – I don't know. Everyone can do that at some point. Can walk away. Whereas not everybody can be ejected from like a home planet, you know, and crash her on us.
GR: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
GR: Well – and it goes the universality, right? If we – if, if, on the one side – if the argument – part of the argument for saying that – let's just – let's, let's stop playing around. Let's admit that the culture is a queer culture. If part of what you get out of that is the connection with Diana that is the connection we've all had, we've all known what it's like to look at somebody longingly, you know.
AM: Yeah.
GR: We've all – we've all run that emotional gamut. Then you get the converse, which is we all know what it's like to be in love. And we all know what it's like to say goodbye. And almost all of us I would hazard have had to say goodbye to somebody forever, be it by a death or events of space and time. You know, that is – that is universal to it. I can say say I, I – my, my hackles tend to raise when, when I hear – and you may hear it a lot with Superman, too. These characters get dismissed because "it's too easy" for them or they are "unrelatable." And, if – you know if they're unrelatable, that's a failing in my writing. That's not a failing in the character. That's a failure in the storytelling or the storyteller, you know.
JS: Oh, man. That, that was excellent. I'm – I don't really think I have any other questions for you. Thank you so much for joining us.
GR: Okay.
JS: I really appreciate it. I have never heard someone talk about that sort of mythology and just comic books in general as eloquently as you do. And I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
AM: I would, yeah, just love to, you know, thank you again. I'm sure you get this all the time. But, as a, you know, queer lady, who has always felt kind of alienated from comic books, the Wonder Woman was my entrance to it. So, thank you for, you know, talking about the thing that we all know and love anyway.
GR: Well, you are very welcome. You know, one of the things that makes Diana so wonderful is that she's there for so many people. She is one of the most inclusive character that I think has ever been created. She, she is there for everybody. And, in particular, you know, to people of all sexual identity. You know, the number of trans people I know, who see her as an anchor character. So, it was – you know, when I was – when – it was funny when, when the interview came and I was asked – when the whole interview was about this. We knew this was going to be the question. And, and it is significant. I think that DC said, "And you are going to do this." They didn't say, "No, you can't."
JS: Good. I'm glad.
GR: Yeah. I mean it is – it is vital to understand that they were willing. And, and on one level – and, in the main I don't tend to have a lot of sympathy for this. But, bearing in mind, it's a – it's a – you're talking about an aspect of a major character who is leading a feature film for a multi billion dollar corporation.
JS: Yeah.
GR: And the corporation cares about one thing and one thing only and it isn't it --
AM: It's about money.
GR: Yeah. They don't – they don't give a rat's ass about addressing social inequity. If they can, they'll be happy to do it. They're not --
AM: Right.
GR: They're not [Inaudible 48:02]. But the agenda is always, first and foremost, the movies got to do well. There's a lot of stuff built up in it. So, they were willing to, you know, to drill down and do it. I will always applaud them for it, because there was a time when they wouldn't and you can't – Marvel still won't, you know.
JS: Yeah.
GR: So – but, you know, as we've said it and as you pointed out, it was simply saying what we knew, you know.
AM: Yeah.
GR: It wasn't headline news, except to people who wanted to make it headline news. To the rest of us, it was like, "Uh, huh, thank you."
AM: Yeah. You read one fact about the the the writers origins and you're like, "Oh, okay, this is what's happening."
JS: You just needed that one person to say it. And we really appreciate that --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- you were the one who said it.
AM: Yeah. And like – and like that's what allies are for, you know.
GR: Well – and that's, that's the crucial thing, because, at the same time that, you know, I fully, fully acknowledge that I'm not – I did not say anything we didn't already know. But the fact that we finally said it matters enormously.
AM: It matters.
JS: Yeah.
GR: You know, the visibility matters. You know, I know that too well. One wants to be able to see one's self in these stories.
JS: Always true. And that's what we try to do with our mythology. We try to bring a little bit more of ourselves into stories that people told themselves.
AM: Right, exactly. From whatever it is; a queer perspective, a feminist perspective, from just living in 2017, you know, looking at these stories that matter a lot to people still. So, so, thank you for, for giving your voice to our reading of this amazing mythological universe.
GR: My pleasure. Thank you guys for having me.
Outro
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you liked this show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil