Episode 64: Jane Eyre (with Vanessa Zoltan)
/We are joined by the amazing Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text to talk about personal mythos, secular sacred reading, and of course, wives in attics. Enter Spoiler Alert Central with us as we dive into the nitty gritty of Charlotte Brontë’s classic novel, learn why a short engagement is ALWAYS a red flag, hear about the weirdest scene in all of literature, and tell you why beeswax and white vinegar are all you need to clean your mansion.
Guest
Vanessa Zoltan can be found on Twitter @vanessamzoltan. Listen to Harry Potter and the Sacred Text on Acast, Apple Podcasts, or any other podcast app. Subscribe to her new show, Hot & Bothered, which treats writing Romance novels as a sacred practice.
Find Us Online
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Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 64: Jane Eyre with Vanessa Zoltan.
JS: I never thought that would be a title of one of our episodes.
AM: I know. I know. So, listen, guys, it's a little bit different.
JS: Yes.
AM: We are talking today about a personal mythology. A text that has, like, had a lot of meaning to our guests, Vanessa. It has really shaped her life. Mine too. And kind of the ways in which we construct our personal mythologies around the stuff that we love. And, also, the ways in which Jane Eyre, itself, is like a mythological text.
JS: Right. And that makes total sense because, if you don't know Vanessa's name just from us talking about it --
AM: I have good news for you. There's a new podcast you love.
JS: She is one of the co-hosts of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text.
AM: My god.
JS: Which takes each chapter of Harry Potter and treats it like a sacred texts. Like the Bible or Quran.
AM: Quran. Whatever.
JS: Any, any sort of sacred texts that one would take lessons from by reading.
AM: Yeah. So, like, how do we read this text as an instruction for life?
JS: Right.
AM: So, they read basically each chapter through a lens of, like, humility and loneliness.
JS: Commitment.
AM: And love. Commitment. All of the sort of – I don't know. Like, for someone, like, you know, us, who loves Harry Potter and will take any excuse to revisit the books, it's delightful to, for example, experience them through the eyes of a newbie in Mike Schubert in Potterless, which I recommend everybody subscribe to. But, also, having this really specific, like, literary, you know, textual analysis. It's like college all over again in the very best way, and I love it so much. But, even if you're not like a religious person, if you're not a literary person, if you're not a school person, you’re just going to love it.
JS: It's just very thoughtful and insightful.
AM: It’s very thoughtful, very insightful, and Vanessa is a delight.
JS: Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. Again, subscribe to it. It's excellent .
AM: They’re in Goblet of Fire right now. There's a lot for you to catch up on.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But I'm really stoked about it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And we're gonna just blast address this interest.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, you guys can get to the good, good interview.
JS: You know who else is good, good?
AM: I bet it's our newest patrons.
JS: It is. Tell us about them.
AM: Oh, well, we would love to welcome our newest patrons; Kelsie, Iida-Maria, Tabrampho, Maria, and Brenton. Welcome to the family.
JS: Welcome.
AM: And, additionally, thank you so much as always to our supporting producer-level patrons, some of the people who help us do this every single week; Neal, Philip, Julie, Sara, Kristina, Josh, Eeyore, Sandra, Cammie, Lindsey, Ryan, Shelby, Lin, Mercedes, Phil, Catherine, and Debra.
JS: Y'all are the feminist romanticism icons of our heart.
AM: I love it. I love it. And definitely not Rochester are our legend level patrons.
JS: Definitely not stuck in the attic.
AM: That’s a – that’s a little preview – little preview of our hot take. LeAnn, Ashley, Cassie, AshleyMarie, and Bridge, you guys are definitely not the creepy wives in the attic unless you want to be, in which case you totally are.
JS: Sometimes, people do. Sometimes, people want to be.
AM: I’m definitely the nightgowned wife, wife in the attic. Like, come on.
JS: Okay, if you say so.
AM: And, Julia, you mentioned to me that we're near a milestone.
JS: We are. So, we have at last count 462 ratings on iTunes. I want to get it to 500, because I like round numbers.
AM: Kind of close to 500, isn’t it?
JS: It is.
AM: So, if you haven't taken the time to either on a desktop computer or laptop, whatever, go to iTunes and review us in Apple podcasts or on your iPhone to open up the podcast app and give us a rating and/or a nice review. We would really appreciate it.
JS: That would be great.
AM: It'd be really, really great.
JS: We love you all.
AM: I know.
JS: I’m actually gonna – I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna read our most recent review on the mic.
AM: Bring it up.
JS: Hold on. So, this is our most recent review. This is from TheJones912. And they said, “Based on the cover art, I wasn't quite sure what I was getting into. But I was super happy to find a well-researched and passionate discussion on indigenous folklore in the episode I checked out. You'll have a great time and learn a lot especially if you enjoy mythology and cultural stories. Subscribed.”
AM: Awww.
JS: Thank you, TheJones912.
AM: Thank you, Jones. That's so sweet of you.
JS: And, if you review the podcast in the next week or so, I might read your review on the show.
AM: That is a good incentive, Jules. I love it.
JS: I like it.
AM: I want you to read words I write, and we talk every single day.
JS: That is true.
AM: All right. So, we would love again to thank Vanessa for guest starring and, also, to apologize because we recorded this literally a year ago.
JS: Sorry.
AM: We're very sorry. Listen, it's just – it's how it shook out. And we love this episode. We are so glad we're able to dust it off and present it to you like a Disney remastered out of the vault DVD here for you.
JS: From the Spirits vault.
AM: From the Spirits vault. It's Episode 64: Jane Eyre with Vanessa Zoltan.
Intro Music.
AM: So, we are so happy today to be with Vanessa Zoltan, who is co-host of the fabulous Harry Potter and the Sacred Text Podcast.
JS: Guys, you know how much we love Harry Potter. You know how much we love this podcast. We talk about it all the time.
AM: And how much I love literary analysis.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, so, when I – when I saw this, I must confess, your podcast, I was like, “Oh, man, I hope this is gonna be good,” because it's two of my favorite things. And, lo and behold, it is better than I could have imagined.
JS: It absolutely is.
AM: So good.
JS: So, thank you for coming on, Vanessa.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: Thank, thank you so much for having me.
JS: Absolutely.
VZ: It's really an honor. And, you know, talking about stories and analyzing them and drinking are some of my favorite things. So --
JS: I mean what can be better, honestly?
AM: That's why we're here.
JS: Yep.
AM: But, Julia, for once, does not know what we're actually gonna talk about today. Normally, it’s mine position.
JS: It’s a strange and weird thing, but I'm ready for it. Vanessa, what are we gonna be talking about today?
VZ: So, I'm going to tell a story from Jane Eyre.
AM: Wooh. Yes!
JS: Oh, god.
AM: I am fine with Jane Eyre!
JS: Amanda's eyes just bugged out and excitement. It was amazing.
VZ: So, yeah, I mean Jane Eyre is my favorite novel of all time. And --
AM: Great start. We should be friends.
VZ: Yeah. I mean, anybody who's not, you're a little bit dumb. I'm just kidding. I'm sure you're a wonderful person, definitely.
AM: They, they just haven't gotten the right in-road yet to know.
JS: No, they read it when they were in eighth grade. And then they didn't really get a good experience with it.
AM: Yeah. You just gotta – you gotta pick your – you know, choose your own adventure. Choose your own route through the book.
VZ: Yeah, but it's so good. Everybody should just read it, and reread it, and reread it. And it is the first book that I practiced doing secular sacred reading with.
JS: Oh, yeah.
VZ: So, it's a book that I have spent a lot of time with. So --
AM: Can you explain your technique just very briefly to listeners who may not have listened to your show yet but soon will?
VZ: Yes. So, we believe that you can treat anything that is secular as sacred and I believe that doing so gives you a lot of gifts. So, I was raised as an atheist, but I was really craving, you know, the ability to make meaning of the world around me. And, so, I picked something that I loved, Jane Eyre. And, yeah, we have like a three-step process, which is, one, if you treat the thing you love with, with commitment – so, believing that the more time you spend with it, the more gifts it will give you. Two, with rigor. So, we use traditionally religious practices in order to analyze the texts. But, certainly, you know, literary practices or, you know, depending on what it is you're treating as sacred. Just whatever that is, do an authentic rigorous practice. And then three is in community. And, so, we have our listeners. And they send in voicemails and, and – or we also have a reading group that meets once a week. And we talk about the text together. So, yeah. So, I did that with Jane Eyre, first, with a professor for six months. And then I ran a Jane Eyre as a Sacred Text reading group for six months. And --
JS: So cool.
VZ: Yeah, it's the best.
AM: So, I am so excited to hear everything you have to say.
VZ: Okay. So, should I just start?
AM: Go tell us.
JS: Let’s just dive right in. It's good.
VZ: Should I just start telling my story?
AM: Please do.
JS: Yeah. Go for it.
VZ: So, this, this whole thing should be called spoiler alert. This is like the big twist in the novel.
AM: Yes.
JS: That’s fine.
AM: Getting right to it. Right to the attic wives.
VZ: Yes, because it's so good. Okay. So, Jane is poor, plain, and little. She's an orphan for simplicity's sake. And she becomes a governess at a big house. She becomes a governess to a little French girl. And the ward of this little friend girl is Mr. Rochester. And, of course, he’s very --
AM: Hmm. Mr. Rochester.
VZ: Yes. He's so dreamy. He is also sort of an asshole. But, you know, he's a dreamy asshole. And, so, they fall in love. And he's wealthy, and she's poor, you know, and obscure and all these words she uses for herself. And – but he proposes. And they're gonna get married. And he decides that they have to get married within three weeks.
AM: Suspicious.
JS: That is – yeah. That's not great.
AM: Yes, super short engagement, ladies, take, take care.
VZ: Yeah. It never means anything good if he's demanding that.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: And, in the meantime, this house is just, like, sort of seems vaguely haunted. They live in Thornfield Hall, which is this huge house. Lots of servants, including a servant named Grace Poole, who seems to be an alcoholic and have, like, fits of rage sometimes. And it's, like, unclear, but there's, like, a lot of banging around the house. There's a fire started by – supposedly, by Grace Poole, et cetera. So, anyway, the wedding day comes. Jane and Rochester go down the hill to the church. And it's just the two of them at the wedding. They have, like, a local person as the witness and the priest. And, as they are about to get married, a solicitor storms through the door and says, “You cannot get married. Rochester is already married to Bertha Mason.”
JS: Gasp.
VZ: Gasp. And Jane just sort of, you know, stands there. And Rochester stands there for a good amount of time and is like, “What do I do? What do I do?”
JS: Whoops.
AM: Oh, no. The thing has happened.
VZ: Yeah, the shoe has dropped. And he finally decides – he like – he finally decides to speak up. And he goes, “Bigamy is an ugly word. I meant to be a bigamist.”
AM: Oh, shit. Wow.
JS: I forgot that was a line in Jane Eyre.
AM: I forgot that was a line.
VZ: Oh, yeah.
AM: Wow. Rochester, really just the kind of dry humor is not appropriate.
JS: Damn. That's also like some like assholey Andrew Jackson bullshit right there.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: Oh, it’s --
AM: Like, are you really accusing me of this right now? Like, yes, Andrew Jackson, fucking genocide. Like, what are you talking about?
VZ: Yes, I know. Isn’t it terrible for you? Well, yeah. And then Rochester actually goes on, like, a Jacksonian like victim rant, right?
JS: That sounds right.
VZ: He’s like --
AM: Yep.
VZ: -- he's – and he grabs Jane by the hand. And he demands that the priest, the solicitor, and that his brother-in-law follow him up to the house. And they go straight up to the attic of the house, where Jane has always thought that Grace Poole lives. And it turns out the Grace Poole is the woman in charge of Rochester’s wife, Bertha Mason Rochester, who is the “mad woman in the attic.” So, she's the one who has set the fire in the house. She's the one who has attacked people. She's the one who's caused all this chaos. And Rochester says, “You know, I'm sorry, Jane, but look at the animal to whom I am married. They tricked me into marrying her. They didn't tell me that she was mad and had a mad mother.” And, like, basically – and Jane just sort of stands there in shock and, you know, eventually, goes back to her room and, like, doesn’t cry.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Same Jane. Same.
AM: And then Rochester’s, like, “Isn't my life hard?”
JS: Oh, god.
AM: Jane is like, “It's our literal wedding day.”
JS: Rochester is like that douchey guy on Tinder who, after like two days of texting, he's like, “We have to meet up.” Like, no, we don't.
AM: I don’t owe you anything, guy.
VZ: Or I mean, like, yeah, Rochester, in this moment, is a lot of things. And then, actually – so, the next scene, which isn't a great like plot scene, but is I think one of my favorite scenes in all literature where Rochester is explaining to Jane the history of what happened. And he says to her, “Whom would you offend by, by staying with me?” And she, you know – and, whenever he says that, I'm like, “Yeah, Jane. Whom would you offend? Like, nobody knows about this wife. You guys could be happy together.” And then she has the best line. And she says, “Myself.”
JS: Okay. Good.
AM: Badass.
JS: Because that's what I was gonna say.
AM: Jane has too much self-respect.
VZ: Yep.
AM: Work it girl.
VZ: I must respect myself. Principles are not for the times in which we are not tested. They are for times such as these. I mean it's like, you know --
JS: Oh, Jane.
AM: Really good. Just, just pure. Just pure.
VZ: -- so perfect.
JS: I just put my hands up in the praise emoji style. Like, oh, bless Jane. Bless.
AM: Yes, she did. She really did.
VZ: She's, she's sort of – yeah. She's sort of perfect. She's just – I mean, over and over again, it’s, “I must leave you, sir.” And one really interesting thing in the scene that comes right after is that Jane's thoughts are often in quotation marks, because she – you know, she talks directly to the reader. And she’ll just say, reader, I thought comma quote and then tell us what you think – what she thought.
AM: Mhmm.
JS: Awesome.
VZ: But, in this scene, it's very unclear when she's thinking something and when she's saying it out loud.
AM: Oh, man. She's self-actualized. She’s, she's like representing the, the purist – you know, her purest heart, her purest intentions and thoughts.
VZ: Right. So, she says things. Every once in a while, you can follow it. She'll go, “Reader, I forgave him when – I, I forgave him at once, but not out loud.” And then she tells you in quotes what her forgiveness of him is. But, without that little hint, you wouldn't know if she had said it or just thought it. But, often, in that scene, you're not sure if she said things out loud or is just telling you what her innermost thoughts were at that moment.
JS: That’s kind of beautiful writing.
AM: It is. It is.
VZ: Oh, it’s insane.
AM: And it’s, it’s kind of indicative too of what it's like when you're in love with somebody where, where you feel this.
VZ: Absolutely.
AM: Yeah. Like, your pure self and their pure self. You know, it's just kind of an ongoing conversations and the barriers, and, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
VZ: Oh. And I mean, in a previous scene and, like, the weirdest scene in all of literature when Rochester is dressed up, there’s a great line where --
JS: That is a weird scene.
AM: I know exactly what you were going for.
VZ: But he says to her, “I can read your forehead,” and then he does. And it's, you know, I can live alone if self-respect and dignity require me so to do. And she's like, “Yeah.” Like, you can lose track of that and think that it's Jane talking, but it's Rochester reading her forehead. So, like they, they seem to – I mean they also, eventually, hear each other across time and space. He yells, “Jane!” --
AM: They do. They do.
VZ: -- from like hundreds of miles away. And she hears him on the wind. So, like, there's definitely an argument being made for a certain kind of love there. But, anyway, that is --
JS: That's how Psyche and Eros too, like, going back to the --
AM: It is.
JS: -- harkening to the Greek mythology. There, Psyche has to battle all the way back and forth through hell and back literally to find Eros again. And then Eros is able to find her. And it's amazing and beautiful. And they learn to trust and love each other again, but I dig that. I'm super into that idea that love can bring people together even if it's not physically, like metaphysically.
AM: Yep. Yeah.
VZ: Yeah. And what's so interesting – so, so, Jane – so, they get separated, of course, for, you know, a third of the book. And then Jane hears Rochester calling her in the wind from hundreds of miles away.
JS: On the moors.
VZ: And, and, yeah, on the Moors, when St. John – I mean it's interesting on so many levels. But, anyway, they get reunited. And Rochester then says to her, “You know, there was a night that I was so desperate for you. I called for you.” And Jane is like, “What? I heard you.”
JS: Oh, shit.
VZ: But Jane says, “Reader, I never told him, because I like” – and then, now, I'm going to paraphrase. But it's like, “Because I thought it would freak him out too much.” And, so, it's so weird that, like, they have this connection. But then, on this other level, she, like, doesn't feel comfortable telling him the extent to which they have the connection.
JS: Wait. Also, I just thought of a Harry Potter scene that this is related to.
AM: Oh, please.
VZ: Oh, please.
JS: And it is the scene in the seventh book where Ron had left --
VZ: Oh, yeah.
JS: -- after that whole situation. And he was able to hear Harry and Hermione’s conversations --
VZ: Hear them.
JS: -- when he's playing with the Deluminator. Is that what it’s called?
VZ: The lighter. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: The Put-Outer, which is what it’s called in the first book.
AM: Exactly.
VZ: Yeah.
JS: Deluminator in the seventh book.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And he just, like, comes back, and he tells them, like, “I heard you guys, and I missed you. And I knew you needed help. So, I came.”
AM: Yep. Yep. A strong – a force stronger than, than sound, you know, brought them together.
VZ: Yeah.
JS: Beautiful.
AM: And, and I – I’m also so curious about Jane’s decision to, to keep back that information. It's almost as if it was a sort of private confirmation for her of their bond. And that's all she needed, you know. And, and they know what they mean to one another. And, so, it's not important why she's back. But, you know, she, she doesn't need perhaps to, like – to divulge that she's gotten that confirmation from, like, the universe that, “Okay. Yes, this is where I meant to be.”
VZ: Yeah. And it – I mean, like, it also a little bit shows that, like, Jane is a stone-cold bitch.
JS: Yeah, Jane.
VZ: She can hold that. It's – you know, the whole story is told from 10 years later.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: So, it's been 10 years. And she, like, hasn't told her husband that she heard him calling her on the wind. Like, I don’t know.
AM: Yeah, because [Inaudible 16:56] she just showed up because she, you know, like, felt bad or wanted to come back. I guess that's what she is allowing him to believe.
JS: Yeah. That almost makes her seem like the desperate ex, which I don't like.
AM: Or, alternatively, the person with so much, like, compassion and, and whatever that she, like, couldn't leave an unresolved, you know, strand.
JS: I think that's probably more what they were going for, but I like to go for an ex look.
VZ: Right. Well, I think the – I, I mean the way that she positions herself, it's so weird. I mean it's so weird. The reunion – the whole book is so weird, which is why it's so good. But --
AM: I know. Those last couple chapters, our whole senior English class was like, “Come the fuck on.”
JS: What is happening?
AM: Like, when you get behind St. John here.
VZ: Oh, yeah. She is just torturing him.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: Oh. Oh, no. St. John is – St. John is the actual worse.
JS: I don't remember anything about St. John besides --
AM: He’s the worst. He blocked it out properly.
JS: -- besides me going, “His name is St. John.” They like, “No, it's Sinjin.” I'm like, “No, it's not.”
VZ: It’s definitely St. John. Oh, St. John, I mean – okay. So, I actually have a theory as to why Jane can hear Rochester on the moors. And that is because St. John has been, like, wearing her down about marrying him for months.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: And he is using literally the threat of the wrath of God. He's, like, “I have prayed on it, and I am a minister.”
AM: Yep.
VZ: And it is your calling to come to --
AM: India with me and – yeah.
VZ: -- to India with me and most likely die. And I am 100 percent sure. And it is your calling to do that as my wife, not as my sister even though we’re cousins. And he is just – and she's finally starting to give in for the first time. And then she --
JS: Oh, Vanessa, I think I know where you’re going with this. I’m really excited.
VZ: She’s about to say yes. And that is when she hears Rochester calling her. And, so, I feel like, in a moment of desperation, like, somehow, the universe is, like, don't do it.
JS: Yeah.
VZ: And, like, takes care. And --
JS: Like, maybe a literal act of God.
VZ: Yeah.
JS: Which is amazing.
VZ: She's like – right. And it gives the woman the prophecy instead of the man. The man is like, “I am going to use my religious authority as a tool of oppression.” And she's like, “Boom, I actually have a direct line to God.”
AM: Which is almost her graduation from St. John school, because the, the whole kind of portion of the book --
VZ: Ooh, I love that.
AM: Thanks, girl. But, the, the whole portion of the book, she's learning literal languages. You know, like, she, she is, is opening her mind. Exactly, like, learning a new profession, living alone. You know, that's really a period of, like, awakening and learning and gaining wisdom for her. And, so, the fact that she can interpret and then act on, you know, whatever divine, divine kind of message or if it's just, you know, something that she sees in the world and decides that this is the moment that she makes a change in her life, you know, that's the kind of self-actualization and agency that was previously denied, you know, to her.
VZ: Yeah, I just love that. I don't really have anything else to say about that. There's an interesting theological argument being made throughout the books that I can't quite make sense of that what you just said reminded me of, which is – there’s certain Christianity that she – that she's, like, graduating past St. John’s Christianity. And there's all of this talk in the books of –like, in the novel about, like, sprites and fairies and --
AM: Yes.
JS: Like old English style.
VZ: -- and Rochester.
AM: Gypsies and spirits.
JS: Yeah.
VZ: Right. And – but it's also, of course, like, very Christian. But then there are different Christian theologies without it – throughout it. Like, Mr. Brocklehurst is, like, “You are a bad child. And, so, you will go to hell.” Whereas, Helen, Jane's best friend, is like, “We all go to heaven.” Right. So, it seems as though Jane's like more naturalized, romanticized, moorish Christianity is, is the one that wins out, until Jane, who narrates the whole 550-page novel, for some reason, gives St. John the last word and the last line in the novel. It’s a quote from St. John’s last letter to her. And it's, “Here, I come, Lord Jesus.” So --
AM: Maybe she just allowing him to hang himself his own noose, you know, or just allowing himself to – I don't know – represent, represent himself as the path not taken.
JS: I also don't hate the idea of her taking this sort of Christianity or brand of Christianity that was totally eclipsing her, and pressuring her, and adapting it into her own.
AM: Yeah, it almost feels like the, the argument is that true love and faith conquer all. And, and Jane kind of gets there despite the systems put in place around her, because she is institutionalized for the entire novel. Like, she's just kind of passing through different kinds of shackles from the orphanage, where she kind of spends the first bit of the book and her best friend dies. That's really sad. And there’s plague. And she's just, like, abused by people. And, like, It's awful. Awful, except for the first page, where she's in a beautiful little reading nook that all of us want to stay in forever.
JS: And then everything is terrible after that.
AM: Yeah. And then – right. So, go --
VZ: Yeah. And, even that, I mean she's there because she's hiding from her abusive cousin.
AM: Exactly. Exactly. But she goes from the orphanage to a governess job where, from my recollection, she gets no time off. Like, she's in a literal house --
VZ: Yeah.
AM: -- but she's in prison. Like – and then, finally, to – you know, to the, the house of St. John, where she's able to kind of rise above that and live as a school mistress in her – you know, on – in her own house in a town. And then, finally, to decide to leave of her own, you know, free will and to – and to return to a nest or a house of her choosing. I don't know.
VZ: Well, actually – but, between those two things, she becomes independently wealthy.
AM: Yes.
JS: Does she?
AM: Yes.
VZ: So – yeah.
JS: Good.
AM: A woman needs a room of her own and, and some salary.
VZ: Yeah.
JS: I thought you’re quoting it. I’m like, I don't know if that's the actual quote, but all right. AM: I was – I was going for it, but I couldn't get there in the end.
JS: That’s fine.
VZ: Well, I, I mean A Room – A Room of One’s Own is Virginia Woolf.
AM: Yep.
VZ: But it's --
AM: That’s what I was trying to quote. There is a money quote of like – of like a woman – like yeah, yeah. Like, a woman needs a room of one's own and something else.
VZ: And income. Well, I was actually reminded of Virginia Woolf, because I wonder – you know, she loved Middlemarch. And I've never heard her talk about Jane Eyre. I've never read her write about Jane Eyre. And I just bet she hated it.
AM: Oh, yeah. No, Jane Eyre is like uppity and like comes into high class without having earned it.
JS: Virginia Woolf doesn’t like that shit.
AM: No.
VZ: And Woolf didn't really – didn't really believe in, like, brainwave connections, right? She believes that, like, we never really know each other and, like, Mr. and Mrs. Dalloway, and Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay can spend their whole lives together and still look across a party at one another and be like, “Who are you? You're disgusting.” Whereas --
AM: Yeah. And even her love letters to Vita Sackville-West, you know, the woman she was in love with for a long, long time, or, you know, had various kinds of relationships with. But there, there definitely was love there. But, whenever she kind of talks about a connection or a love or a feeling that overwhelms her, it's always with suspicion and almost a little bit of derision. You know, like --
VZ: Right.
AM: -- like, the kind of purest love letter that she's – that she's writing. There's always a little bit of an attitude of like, “Isn't this bullshit?” Or, like – or like, I can't believe I'm saying this, but – which is why teenage me really loved those letters. But --
JS: Of course.
AM: -- also, looking back exactly as you say, Vanessa, you know, there is really a kind of suspicion or, or disbelief that we can never truly know one another. We’re modernists.
VZ: Right. Whereas, Rochester and Jane don't – like, can know each other from hundreds of miles away.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, in a way, then her love of Rochester and with Rochester is kind of the opposite of St. John’s perceived love, because Jane and St. John, like, get to know each other laboriously. They talk for a long time.
VZ: Yeah.
AM: Like, they correspond for a long time. It, it really is a process of, like, unfurling the story and, and factor themselves to one another. And they don't click in that way, you know. And, and St. John believes that, just because they've, like, worked at it for long enough, you know, like, this is how this relationship culminates. Whereas, with Jane and Rochester, you know, if it wasn't necessarily love at first sight across the room, it was quite close to that. And, so, exactly, it's almost like that, that unasked for, effortless connection is what ends up trumping, in the end, effort that, while well intentioned, ended up just not clicking or being futile.
VZ: Right. But it's even – its effortless connection, but it's a tremendous amount of effort to make the relationship work.
AM: You're totally right. Yeah. Connection, but then, then the love takes effort.
VZ: Yeah. The house has to burn down. And he has to get maimed. And she has to, like, you know, perish in the wilderness for three days like Jesus. I mean, like, they have to put --
AM: True.
VZ: -- a ton of work in. But, right, it just seemed to be an argument for, like, don't throw away love. It's rare and special.
AM: I don't know. I don't know if there is an argument to be had or just – I've always loved Jane Eyre as, as kind of one woman's life. Just a story of one woman's choices and how they ended up. And maybe – you know, my reading of the book has changed every time I read it. And I read it maybe four or five times since I was, you know, 16. But that's, that's why I liked it the most. It doesn't seem to be making a kind of overarching argument for the world. It seems more like, you know, of, of what we can understand about ourselves and our own choices from, from this one person's story. So, I don't know. Do you read any kind of bigger, bigger argument from it?
VZ: Well, I mean, when you're reading a text as sacred, the whole point is to try to read as, as instructive. And, and, so, you know, I try to put it in conversation with my life. And I think the same sentence can teach me something totally different each time I return to the text. But, yeah, I think, you know, if you put in that effort of treating something as it – as it can be instructive, I don't know what – the truth is that I'm out of options. I don't know where else to turn for instruction, except for art that I admire. I feel like, if I gave up Charlotte Bronte and Virginia Woolf and J.K. Rowling as my instructors, I'm like, “I would be at a total loss.” I wouldn't know where to look anymore. So, I, I mean I reject some of Jane's decisions. You know, I, I honestly think I would have stayed with Rochester when he's like, “Let's go to the South of France. And, like, no one will know that we're not technically married.”
AM: Sounds dope. We already have a kid. She’s 10.
JS: I would do that. South of France, let’s do it.
AM: I don’t have to birth a kid. Do it.
VZ: Right. And like – and, and she has known suffering, right? She, like, laid in a bed with her best friend while she died. She, like, knows death can come any minute. And that like, life is, like, short and hard. Like, take your happiness where you can find it, right? But I respect her decision. And there are moments in which I opt for the, “No, no, I must respect myself.” And there are moments in which I'm like, “Do you know what? Fuck it. Life is short. I'm gonna, you know, give up this false sense of dignity in order to, you know, live my life today.”
AM: Yeah.
VZ: So, I put myself in conversation with it and use it as instructive. That doesn't mean I'm, like, looking at a bracelet asking myself, like, “What would Jane do?” And then, like, emulating it.
AM: Totally. And, like, Charlotte – like, that's what I kind of mean when I say, like, I don't think Charlotte Bronte is arguing or, or trying to persuade us to look one way or another.
VZ: Right.
AM: But, certainly, like, I think so much of the charm is that Jane acts in ways that are – that are – that are contradictory, or that you --
JS: Oh, yeah.
AM: -- kind of – kind of against expectation. And just – I don't know. For me, at 16, like, reading someone else's contradictory choices and, like, loving her anyway, you know, and seeing that, like, life works out no matter which choices you make. Like, you know, you're gonna find fulfillment or you're going to, you know, settle and reconcile with your choices some way or another.
VZ: Yeah.
AM: That, that was a great lesson for me at the time.
JS: And it's so different from most of the myths that we talked about and most of the stories --
AM: It is.
JS: -- we talked about, because, usually, myths and stories and folklore are used as instructional, but in a bad way. Like, don't do this thing or you will die like this person.
AM: Yes.
VZ: Right. Like, in a very didactic way.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Exactly.
JS: So, it's, it's nice to see a story that maybe came out of that mythology, that came out of Joseph Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey and being like, “Okay. She, she made the right decisions this time. We're happy for her.”
AM: Yeah. She, she refused the calm and came back to him later.
JS: Yeah. And we're totally okay with that. That's told.
VZ: And she ended up, like, healthy, happy and rich, right?
AM: Yeah.
VZ: Like, she, like, wins.
JS: That's like – those are the three big ones.
AM: It is.
JS: That's where you want to be.
VZ: Yeah. And, like, pure of heart and, like, a good christian – right. Like, she, she just, like, wins.
JS: Yeah. Like, didn't compromise her values or anything to get to that place. That's amazing.
AM: Yeah. She almost – she gave up the more trivial or the more transient happiness and, and comforts to really get to the, the final and the big and the Big Kahuna. Like, like, the good one at the end.
VZ: Yeah. I mean she even – yeah. I mean, so, when she gets engaged to Rochester, he wants to, like, buy her all these things. And she refuses to let him. She's, like, “I would look stupid in diamonds.”
AM: Yep.
VZ: Like, what are you doing trying to like decorate me? But then, when she comes into money of her own, she immediately wants to decorate the house. She's like, “I'm gonna buy nice furniture.” And, like, there's, like, paragraphs about the beeswax that they used to like wax the handrails. Like, she becomes --
AM: Very important. Very – in keeping of your mansion, beeswax is, is an important part of that.
VZ: Absolutely. Listeners, here is your house – you know, housekeeping tip.
JS: Beeswax on everything.
AM: Beeswax, white vinegar, that's all you need.
VZ: Yeah, it really is. But – and she spends, like, a ton of money on clothes and gloves, and hats, and bonnets, right? It's just – but she's now --
AM: It’s her money now.
VZ: I mean she's matured – it's her money now. I also think that the difference is that she has starved in the woods for three days.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: And she's like, “Now, I know what it's like to, like, really, like, be so cold and hungry that I might die. And comfortable is nice.”
JS: Damn right I want a nice bonnet.
AM: Exactly.
VZ: Yeah. Gloves to keep me warm in case I get locked out. Yes, please.
AM: Well,, show, show, our listeners the letter. It's good.
JS: Practical but fancy, I'm into it.
VZ: Yes.
AM: I know. I know. And, yeah. And she can appreciate these things now. Like, she can appreciate the love with Rochester that, that she earns and works for after having, you know, given it up. And, and that's just, I think, a theme throughout the novel. It takes, you know, being persecuted in the orphanage to find the value of found family leader with her cousins --
VZ: Yeah.
AM: -- or, I guess, her actual family that she later finds. And, you know it, it takes losing a best friend to really start to cherish relationships with others as well.
VZ: Yeah. Oh, Jane, she's just the best.
AM: She really is the best.
JS: Honestly.
AM: And I – and I love the, the kind of concept that we started with the attic wives, which, number one, is maybe my top band name if I ever were to make a band name – a band.
JS: Amanda has a list of band names, though Amanda is very musically not inclined.
AM: Oh, no. I’m uninclined in music, but the Attic Wives would be dope.
VZ: But my favorite game is from Brooklyn Nine-Nine and, as well, that's the name of your sex tape.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes.
VZ: Yeah.
JS: Attic Wives would be the name of your sex tape, Amanda.
AM: Honestly, that sounds pretty legit. That sounds like a reading of a room of one zone that I would love to undertake. Bringing it back. But, anyway, I also love the trope of the attic wife. Like, you – it's in the Simpsons.
VZ: Yeah.
AM: Like, it's in kind of every like pop cultural thing that you can imagine. I haven't read the scholarship on it, but I super-duper want to now.
JS: The Weasleys have a attic ghoul.
AM: They have the attic ghoul. Yeah. Or, just like either, either literally the thing in the attic that, you know, you don't want people seeing or, or the metaphorical --
JS: The skeleton in your closet.
AM: The skeleton in the closet, But, like, the attic wife is so much better, isn't it?
JS: Yeah. It is.
VZ: Well, I can – I mean I don't know how dark you want me to take this, but stick with me long enough, you know, like, somewhere bleak.
JS: Go for it.
AM: The darkest
JS: You, you, you have not heard our Urban Legends Episode. That gets dark real quick.
AM: Oh, shit. I still have nightmares about that one.
VZ: Okay. I will listen. So, I mean there's a famous piece of literary criticism called The Mad Woman in the Attic about, like, this history of why we write them in as crazy and et cetera.
AM: Yes.
VZ: But, you know, women in the attic – and I spent a lot of time thinking about women in basements. As somebody who's, like, interested in theology, you know, the question of suffering is always the one that you end up struggling with.
AM: Yep.
VZ: Any sort of theological idea can work up until you're like, “Yes, but what about suffering?” And, for me, suffering is embodied in the image of women in basements across the world and sexual slavery and, you know, kidnapped by Boko Haram or, you know, by various sex trades. And we were just finishing – we're just finishing Book Two, Chamber of Secrets of the Harry Potter series. And I was like, “Holy shit! Ginny is a girl in the basement.”
JS: Oh, also, have – also have Ginny in the basement.
AM: Like, the girl in the basement.
JS: Yeah. Oh, god.
AM: Yep.
VZ: Ginny is literally a girl in the basement. And then when – at the end, she's trying – when she's trying to get out of the chamber, Ron wants to hug her and she's too traumatized to let him touch her.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: I was like, “Oh, my god.”
AM: And 11.
VZ: 11.
AM: I know.
VZ: I – and I think J.K. Rowling had just come off of working at Amnesty International with sex trade victims. So, I feel like that had to be in her mind as she was writing Ginny in that moment. But, like, women in, like, attics and basements, I mean, like, that is still a, like, deep problem that we have existentially, psychologically, mentally, and then just like physically --
AM: Literally, in the world.
VZ: Like, in a real way.
AM: And something that's, you know, propagated in, in crime shows and crime movies, which, you know, I find myself loving despite it being my problematic fave. And, and things like, you know, SPU, where, where you kind of see – you know, see kind of – I don't know – justice being gotten.
JS: Not always though.
AM: And people being rescued some of the time. Like, that – I don't know. It's really – it's really cathartic in, in a way. But the sort of the revenge of the attic wife is, is more specifically what I – what I love or kind of imagining her life or imagining how she kind of rises out of her circumstances. I don't know. You know, you don't want to romanticize madness too much, but I don't know, as someone who's, who's tangentially mad, I sort of love the idea that, that the attic wife – you know, maybe, maybe haunting is fun or maybe – you know, maybe that's the way that she can, you know, make mischief and, and amuse herself at night. There's something powerful about, about dwelling with that image.
VZ: Yeah. I mean Saint Teresa of Ávila, who was a great, like, feminists and advocate within the church but was also a woman during the Inquisition and was, like, constantly being investigated by the Inquisition. The way that she talks about the revolution for women was going into your inner – into your inner castle. And that each of us have an inner castle within us, you know, which we can explore and find God within. And it – both was like a revolutionary idea. And it's also one of like, “Well, we're not getting out of the attic yet.”
AM: Right.
VZ: The Inquisition will burn me at the stake if I tell you to, like, get out. So, you can only do it in your mind. And, so, I agree. I mean there is an absolutely valid reason – a way to read Jane Eyre that Bertha is not mad, that Rochester locks her up when he finds out that her mother is black.
AM: Mhmm.
VZ: And that it is entirely to do with race. And that she has been driven that by being locked in the attic. And, so --
AM: Which you would be.
JS: Obviously.
VZ: Yeah. If you’re locked in an attic for 10 years, I would burn the house down and jump too for sure and try to stab him every chance I got.
JS: That reminds me of all of the – like, really bad – not bad, but Grimms' Fairy Tales, where it's, like, the princess has been locked away her entire life. I’m, like, she would not make a good wife. She's probably nuts at this point.
VZ: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She needs some, like, mental health care.
AM: Yeah.
JS: She does not need some random dude taking advantage of her and taking her off to a kingdom to marry him.
AM: I know. Like, she might say yes just to get out of the castle, but, like, the second --
JS: Like, I would.
AM: -- the second you camp overnight, she is out of there with your horse and your – and your sword.
JS: Yeah, as she should be.
VZ: Oh, she probably has a shiv in her pocket, at least, I hope so.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Like, in her braid like Rapunzel. Surprise, it’s full of knives.
VZ: Why did I – Rapunzel was my favorite as a kid. And I just, like, need to go to a therapist to talk about why I was obsessed with Rapunzel.
AM: You super should and then talk about it with us, because that’d be really crazy.
JS: [Inaudible 36:50].
VZ: Like why? Why? I don't – I have no idea what it was.
AM: Mine was Rumpelstiltskin. And I, I --
VZ: Okay. That's a good one too.
AM: Yeah. I think probably because this, this kind of idea that, like – I don't know. I was an unpopular kid. And, like, having the – having the, the secret or the knowledge, and then the power to dole that out, and to reject or to accept other people's kind of attempts to get it, I think that spoke to my inner – my inner, inner need for acceptance and power.
JS: I think Little Mermaid, the original one, was always mine. And I don't know what is wrong with me.
AM: Escapism. I don't know.
JS: I guess so. But, also, where she’s like, “Oh, you know, if it's not about him falling in love with you, you just have to kill him so that you could stay human.” I'm like, “Fair enough.”
AM: Fair enough.
JS: Fair trade would do that to be mermaid.
VZ: That’s awesome. Oh, absolutely. The things I would do to spend my whole life in water.
JS: Yes, please.
AM: So good.
VZ: I, I use Airbnb sometimes just to have a bathtub. That's a real thing.
JS: Oh my god.
AM: Yes. Vanessa , so relatable.
JS: Vanessa, we’re – we'd be such good friends. It's all good.
AM: Oh, my gosh. I can't wait.
VZ: Bathtubs are the best. If that's not, I – why doesn't Jane talk about that? Anyway. I don’t know.
JS: I guess they – was that really a thing back then? You’re washing. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. [Inaudible 38:02] for her.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. I mean it’s I think high class. You’re, you're getting baths drawn for you every couple weeks.
VZ: Yeah.
JS: That’s true. Every couple weeks though.
AM: Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah, for sure. Well, Vanessa, thank you so much for taking the time to come with us and to talk about your personal mythos and your personal sacred text of Jane Eyre.
VZ: Thank you so much. I mean I'll talk about Jane Eyre with you guys anytime you want. So, you know --
AM: Next time, we're in Boston, next time, you're in New York, we'll, we'll do this in person.
JS: Yes.
VZ: Sounds good. I look forward to it.
JS: Oh, Vanessa, is there anything you would like to plug?
AM: Apart from the excellent Harry Potter and the Sacred Texts. Y'all, subscribe now.
VZ: Yes, definitely subscribe to that and to our podcasts. And I don't know. Everybody, go read Jane Eyre. There are so many great retellings of it. There is Read Jane that just came out last year.
AM: Yes.
VZ: Rebecca is great. And I – there are just a million ways to read Jane Eyre.
AM: Yeah.
VZ: So, everybody, should go do it.
JS: I'm gonna steal Amanda's copy on my way out the door today.
AM: I have three copies, Julia. So, you can have your pick.
JS: Yes.
AM: Do you want the Norton Critical Edition? Do you want the Pocket Reader?
JS: I want the smallest one, the Pocket Reader.
AM: Okay. All right. Pocket reader, there you go. And, and I think I speak for probably all three of us when I say like, “We are here for the four person Jane Eyre Book Club, like, in ad infinitum.”
JS: All of that, yes.
AM: How do you pronounce that? For all – for all time. Like, tweet us, if you're reading Jane Eyre. We are here to talk about it with you.
VZ: Yes, forever. Absolutely.
JS: And, listeners, thank you so much.
AM: Remember.
JS: Stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, and Instagram @SpiritsPodcast. We also have all our episodes, collaborations, and guest appearances plus merch on our website spiritspodcast.com.
AM: Come on over to our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes stuff. Throw us as little as $1 and get access to audio extras, recipe cards, director’s commentaries, and patron-only live streams.
JS: And, hey, if you liked the show, please share this with your friends. That is the best way to help us keep on growing.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil