Episode 205: The ‘Hades’ Guide to the Greek Underworld
/Right this way! We’ll be your tour guides through the Greek Underworld this episode as we talk about the new game, Hades, as well as the chthonic gods, hot Furies, sleepy lads, and who this Zagreus guy is, anyway.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of ritual sacrifice, animal death, death, cannibalism, child death, dismemberment, implied drug use, war/battles, misogyny, and guns.
Housekeeping
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About Us
Spirits was created by Julia Schifini, Amanda McLoughlin and Eric Schneider. We are founding members of Multitude, an independent podcast collective and production studio. Our music is "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod (http://incompetech.com), licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is Episode 205: Your Guide to the Greek Underworld.
Julia: I am very excited to talk about this. We haven't talked about, like, solely Greek mythology in a very long time. And now is the perfect time to talk about it because of the video game, Hades.
Amanda: Taking my timeline by storm.
Julia: I love it. I love it. I'm all about people learning about mythology and getting really excited about Greek mythology for the first time since they were, like, 12-year-olds who got really into crystals. I'm into it.
Amanda: Yes, as a – as my partner, Eric Silver has been playing through the game, many times, he will gasp and be like, “Oh, my god, my new buff is, like, this interesting sword.” And it seems like they take a lot from mythology. So, I'm really excited that I got to learn about this through this really fun and contemporary lens.
Julia: Yes, I think you're going to really enjoy it, especially if you're like, I don't get what that's a reference too while you're playing the game. Don't worry. We'll explain it
Amanda: Right on. Well, before we get there, we have to welcome our newest patrons; Sam, Jessica, Zoey, and TheCampyVamp! What a fun name. Thank you so, so much for using your hard earned human dollars to support our podcast on Patreon. You make it possible for us to do this, for this to be our job, and for us to bring you a new episode every dang week. And thank you as well to our supporting producer level patrons; Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Debra, Hannah, Jen, Jessica, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Landon, Liz, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Molly, Phil Fresh, Polly, Riley, Sarah, and Skyla and those absolute legends, the people who support us every dang week an incredible amount that I cannot really fathom but we so appreciate it; Audra, Chelsea, Drew, Frances, Jack Marie, Lada, Livie, Mark, Morgan, Necrofancy, Renegade, and Bea Me Up Scotty. Really ending on a strong note with these names.
Julia: Really. I would run through the underworld for all of these people that you just named.
Amanda: 1,000 percent.
Julia: So, Amanda, what have you got going on? What have you been watching, reading, listening to lately?
Amanda: Julia, I just finished the newest romance book by Courtney Milan, who is an incredibly well-known writer in, like, contemporary romance. And I wasn't very into historical romance. I was like, “Oh, it will be like a modern meet cute. You know, modern RomCom.” But I wasn't super into this whole kind of sub-genre of the – like, you know, the corset buster, whatever they call that. But Courtney Milan, I think, really engages with but also subverts romance tropes, which are actually fanfic tropes for everybody else who's read fanfic and, like, it comes from somewhere.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: And her newest book, The Duke Who Didn't, is a really, really great example of fantastic ways to, like, make a, a love story that is about POC in kind of regency times in the UK. And, again, like, doesn't just sort of say like, “F this whole genre. I'm going to do something different.” But it is such a delight in the way that, like, small tweaks to forms that we know really well absolutely delight us, whether that's an unexpected ending or twist or whatever in a book, in a movie, and what have you. But it's a wonderful entry, I think, for anybody who wants to get into romance or readers like me who are kind of dipping your toes into historical romance.
Julia: I really love your journey into loving romance novels a bit more. It has been such a fascinating ride for me as a, an outsider.
Amanda: Yeah, it's – it's one of those things that, like, society tells you is not worthy of critical attention. But, hey, they're wrong.
Julia: Hey, fuck them. In other news, we would love to hear if you have questions for the gods and for just, you know, the universe in general. If you need advice, we're doing a new segment here on Spirits called Myth Advice. I mean that's the working title for it right now. But you can send in questions that you would like advice for by going to spiritspodcast.com/contact or sending us an email at spiritspodcast@gmail.com. It is going to be a lot of fun. I've started answering a couple of the questions in my notes already and it is going to be a blast.
Amanda: With a familiar but special voice.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: And we're very excited to, to be launching the segment. Cannot wait. So, whether you're listening to this the date comes out or in the far future, please send us your questions and we will get to them on our brand new segment.
Julia: Ooh, brand new segment.
Amanda: Well, I cannot keep the good folks waiting any longer, Julia. So, everybody, please enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 205: Guide to the Greek Underworld.
Intro Music
Julia: So, if you've spent any time on the internet lately and are around people who like video games, whether it's, like, in their vicinity in person or in – on the internet, you have probably heard them shouting about a new game called Hades. So, it is a dungeon crawl, rogue-like action game on Switch and on the PC which follows the story of Zagreus, who is the son of Hades who is attempting to escape the Underworld, which absolutely sounds up the alley of our listeners and for me, personally, as a human being. So, of course, it is a great way for us to have a conversation about the Greek Underworld.
Amanda: It's something that we've referred to and that we've kind of had different myths and stories touch on, but we haven't examined it and, like, talked about its architecture and everything in its own episode. So, I'm really glad we get to do that.
Julia: Yeah, it's gonna be an absolute blast. Now, I personally have not had the opportunity to play Hades yet because, as we've talked about on the show before, I do not own a Switch. And I also have a lot of trouble, like, playing games on a desktop computer. So, that's out for me. But, luckily, we have a video came correspondent, Eric Silver, of Joined the Party and a frequent guest on the show. And he was able to provide me with a little context about the characters as they appear in the game and their role as such. So, I'm going to be sharing his descriptions of each character in the context of the game before I dive into the actual mythology itself. And there, absolutely, will be spoilers for the game. Just a heads up about that. So, if you haven't finished it or you mind being spoiled for endings and character development, maybe wait until after you finish the game. Just a suggestion.
Amanda: Maybe start Join the Party Campaign 2, which features all three of us and Brandon Grugle. It's a great time.
Julia: It is. It is a very, very good time. In talking about Hades and the Greek Underworld, we're going to be talking a lot about the Chthonic gods, which is spelled C-H-T-H-O-N-I-C. The British pronounce the CH, the Americans don't. So, I'm gonna say Chthonic. Please don't yell at me, Brits.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: So, I wanted to give an explanation of what the Chthonic gods are right at the top. So, a lot of times, when we're talking about Greek mythology, we're talking about the Olympian. So, these are the gods who ruled from Mount Olympus and descended from the Titans Cronus and Rhea. And, while there is some overlap with the Chthonic gods, the Chthonic gods are distinct in both their association with the Underworld and the way that they're worshipped. So, like, it's complicated because worship is complicated and worship changes over time. So, there are instances of, for instance, Zeus being worshipped as a Chthonic god but as the same like iteration as Hades. So, it's – so, Hades, at some points, is called Chthonic Zeus. So, it, it gets a little complicated and there is a lot of overlap. But I do think it is worth noting what the Chthonic gods are before we dig into the Underworld.
Amanda: So, as happens with the Greeks, there is just, you know, a flexible definition of time, of relations, of consent.
Julia: Yeah, we're gonna see a lot of that in this episode as we usually do with the Greeks.
Amanda: You can't dive into Ancient Greek mythology without it.
Julia: So, Chthonic means in under or beneath the earth. Like, literally, subterranean and references the type of offering being made to those gods. So, typically, a nocturnal ritual sacrifice, where what was being sacrificed; usually, a living animal, sometimes, other things. It was placed in a pit and then either burned or buried. Unlike a lot of other worship of this kind in Greek traditions though, the animal is left there for the gods rather than cooked and shared among followers.
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: So, fun fact about just the worship of the Chthonic gods. So, we're going to cover a bunch of these Chthonic gods in this episode, but I wanted to start with the main character of the series, Zagreus, because he is probably the god that our average listener knows the least about. So, according to video game correspondent, Eric Silver, he's never going to be referred to as anything else besides video game correspondent, Eric Silver, full title.
Amanda: Ah, no longer The Game Master, that's too Charles, the quiz master.
Julia: That's for only quiz games. This is Eric Silver --
Amanda: True.
Julia: -- the video game correspondent. So --
Amanda: True. True.
Julia: -- to quote Eric, “The stuff that supergiant said about why they picked Zagreus is really interesting. He's nothing. He's basically kind of Forrest Gump quality to him. He was there to fix a bunch of important Greek myths and meets many heroes, gods, et cetera.” In regards to what supergiant has said about him here is a quote from Greg Kasavin, who is the director of the game, answering why he chose Zagreus as the main character for the story during a Reddit AMA. So, “There is a small scrap of poetry – edit, technically, it's a play not a poem – from Aeschylus suggesting from the point of view of Sisyphus that Hades had a son called Zagreus. While Hades is a household name among Greek gods, nobody knows he has a son. And I never really heard of Zagreus despite being fairly familiar with Greek myth having loved it since I was a kid. This was incredibly intriguing to me. And I found that there are very few myths about Hades besides the one well-known one about Persephone,” which we've talked about on the show before.
Amanda: Episode 1.
Julia: So, the idea of uncovering the truth about Zagreus and what became of him through this story was very exciting to me and my colleagues. Again, that was the quote from Greg Kasavin, who's the director of the game Hades. And it is relatively true. Zagreus is a more obscure figure comparing to a lot of the other Greek deities that we'll talk about in this episode. His name means a hunter that catches living animals. The name itself comes from the word a pit for the capture of live animals, which is interesting when we talk about the Chthonic gods because that is typically how they were sacrificing their animals.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But the role of Zagreus differs greatly from source material to source material. Sometimes, he is considered the highest god of the Underworld and is paired with the personification of the earth, Gaia. As Greg Kasavin said in his AMA, Aeschylus, the ancient Greek playwright ties the name, Zagreus, to Hades either as his son or as another title for Hades himself. But, interestingly, the playwright Euripides in a fragment of the lost play talks about, “Night ranging Zagreus performing his feasts of raw flesh,” which do you want to take a guess as to which god might be tied to “Feasts of raw flesh?”
Amanda: Ah, Cronus?
Julia: Not Cronus, but a good guess. Honestly, Dionysus, who is also a character in the game.
Amanda: Oh, sure.
Julia: So, Eric describes Dionysus as, “One of the gods who gives you power ups. His thing is hangover, which slows and stuns enemies,” of course. He's also a partying bro. Here's a quote from him. It's like, “Hey, there's Zag. Man, how's it going? Look, you have to get here with the rest of us already. We've been saving you a spot. Let me know what I can do. Make life a little sweeter for you in the meantime.” The voice actor does a way better job than I do, personally. That’s fine. So, Dionysus, in case our listeners haven't heard of him, is the Wine god and son of Zeus and Semele. But, in the orphic traditions, which basically were Ancient Greeks who worshipped Orpheus and wrote poems about the beginning of the world, the history of the gods, et cetera. A lot of which predates the more classical tellings of the myths that became prominent with Hesiod – the poet Hesiod. So, in these orphic traditions, the name Zagreus is used to describe Dionysus, who is very different from Hesiod’s Dionysus. In their poems and stories, he is the son of Zeus and Persephone and was killed and dismembered by the Titans as an infant only to be reborn later as the child of Zeus and Semele. So, this dismemberment of the orphic Zagreus is extremely important to the orphic cult. So, he was born after Zeus had sex with Persephone in the form of a serpent, which is important because a lot of the Chthonic gods are associated with snakes. And, when Zagreus is born, he's taken to be guarded as Zeus intends to make him his heir. However, as per usual, a jealous Hera intervenes, urging the Titans to attack and kill the child before he can turn into a threat. And, after the Titans dismembers Zagreus, they then cook and partially eat him --
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: -- to the point where only the heart is left, which is then stolen away by Athena and given to Zeus so that he may be reborn.
Amanda: I feel like we have really different interpretations here of the sort of Crown Prince of the Underworld.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: Like, some of them are real – real like, Zuko Season 2 versus, like, Zuko at the end of Avatar. I – I’m – just like many brooding princess, you know, are coming to mind when we talk about him.
Julia: For sure. So, as such, various sources refer to as Zagreus as titles such as older Dionysus, ill-fated Zagreus, Zagreus, the horned baby, Zagreus, the first Dionysus. Horned baby is my favorite.
Amanda: Imagine being a 40-year-old guy called horned baby. Yeah, that sucks.
Julia: Oh, yes, the horned baby.
Amanda: Like, you walk into your hometown deli. They're like, “Horned baby.” And you're like, “I have kids.”
Julia: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have kids. Give me a nice coffee. So, ironically, there's a moment in the game where Dionysus and Zagreus are talking and, in reference to Orpheus, another character from the game, Dionysus says, “That chap comes up with the most smashing song. So, I was thinking maybe we could spin him a tall tale. Something like how maybe you and I, like, we're connected or something. He'll buy it. Tell him. Tell him for me. Yeah.”
Amanda: I really enjoy – and Eric had been like reading out snippets of the game to me as he was playing through it. And it just seems like they have such a good interpretation or like such a good sense of world building. The characters talk to each other. They talk about each other to you. And there is just a lot of kind of responsiveness and, like, a sense of the game knows what you've done and what you still need to do. And I think that's awesome and also so complicated with all the kind of, like, branching logic and all that stuff.
Julia: Oh, yeah. I can't imagine the amount of dialogue some of these voice actors had to record.
Amanda: For sure.
Julia: So, what we know about Zagreus for sure is that he was the child of Persephone and that he was associated with the underworld and, sometimes, directly linked with Hades, either as another title for him or as his son, which makes sense for the game to use Zagreus as the son of Hades and associated with the Underworld. Speaking of Hades and Persephone, we obviously talked about them in our first ever episode and the story of how they came together. So, I'm not going to go into that too much just re-listen to Episode 1, I guess, if you want. But let's talk about their role in the game. So, here is the description of Hades and Persephone from video game correspondent, Eric Silver. Hades is your dad that loves telling you you can't do shit. Rude. He is, spoiler, the final boss of the game who tries to keep you from going out to Greece on the border of the afterlife and the real world. He has two health bars and it's bullshit. You actually – it's great. You actually don't know Persephone is your mom for a big chunk of the time. You think that Nyx is your mom because she raised you in the Underworld. You slowly realize that your mom is gone and Hades doesn't want you to figure it out. Another spoiler. When you beat Hades and escape, you're out in Greece and you see your mom Persephone who thought you were dead. The Persephone-Hades myth is different in the game. Like, the gods on Olympus don't know what happened and they're trying to help Zag escape to live with them. It's a lot of secrets, especially because you don't meet Demeter, who has ice powers, sea, winter until later on in the game.
Amanda: That's a very, very cool.
Julia: Yeah. So, the game gives the relationship between Persephone and Hades a much more loving one than is seen in traditional myths and a lot of modern adaptations, which I love. What I love about one of the little details for the character design for Hades is his clothing and accessories are all very much covered in jewels. So, he has these, like, large gem rings.
Amanda: Oh, yeah.
Julia: His belt is covered in these large jewels. And that is because Hades was considered the richest of the gods. As King of the Underworld, and, specifically, all things beneath the earth, all of the gems found in the ground are his domain.
Amanda: All that good shit.
Julia: It's so good. Also, as Eric's description implies, Zagreus spends the beginning of the game believing that Nyx is his mother. So, now is the perfect time to talk about Nyx, the primordial goddess of the Night.
Amanda: Let's do it.
Julia: So, checking in with video game correspondent, Eric Silver, he describes Nyx as, “What a good hot Goth mom. She gives you guidance and gives you clues to figure out your real parentage, but is always there for you even when she goes a little too far sometimes. She also is the one that gives you a massive mirror, the Mirror of Night, which you keep in your room and game mechanically is a progression system that gives you new powers when you trade in darkness, which is one of the currencies you get when you play. She is also the daughter of Chaos who you stumble into in your time in the game.” More children having weird relationships with their parents. Nyx is one of the old primordial gods who is said to have emerged from the dawn of creation. As Eric says, she is the child of Chaos who you also meet in the game. Though, some sources say that she's a contemporary of Chaos rather than their child. She is the mother of Hypnos who is the personification of Sleep, Thanatos who is the personification of Death, Erebus who is the personification of Darkness.
Amanda: Dang.
Julia: Nyx is a, like, wonderful and powerful goddess. So much so that sources, most notably, Homer, say that she was so beautiful and so powerful that even Zeus feared her.
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: But also Zeus fearing powerful woman is not a super surprising thing.
Amanda: Sure. But openly fearing them might actually be a sign of true power.
Julia: That is. So, she is said to reside in Tartarus and is sometimes shown to be a winged goddess who emerges from the Underworld as, like, a veil of dark mists that draw across the sky and block the light of the upper sky or the Aether. Nyx is the mother of a lot of deities, according to Hesiod. He mentioned Hypnos, and Thanatos, and Erebus. But she was also the mother of Eris or Strife, Nemesis, the fates, the dreams. And then her final child is the ferryman Charon, who will speak about later.
Amanda: Oh, yeah. Coin lad.
Julia: Coin lad. So, let's talk about the kids of Nyx. But, first, let's get a refill.
Amanda: Let's do it.
Midroll Music
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Amanda: I know.
Julia: It's like, “Oh, no, I'm gonna get Jake his own. So, that he has his label and he'll stop using mine because he has been using my conditioner lately.” They also send you stuff like pumps, and stickers, and gifts, and even detailed instructions describing how to use your hair care regimen, which I find super helpful because, sometimes, I just scrub my hair and wash it out. I was like, “Oh, wait, no, I was supposed to leave the conditioner in for five minutes beforehand to get, like, primo results.”
Amanda: Yeah.
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Julia: Yeah. Here's a fun fact. I deleted all my social media apps off of my phone. In the folder in which they were in, I just put my Calm app.
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Julia: Get started today at calm.com/spirits. That is C-A-L-M.com/spirits.
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Julia: Yep.
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Julia: Awesome.
Amanda: And, now, let's get back to the show.
Julia: So, Amanda, I found a incredible cocktail that I wanted to share because, y'all, it's called the Underworld. Basically --
Amanda: Uh, huh.
Julia: -- it is tequila, lime juice, crème de cassis, which is a black currant liqueur topped with ginger beer. So, like, it's a little bit smoky, a little bit peppery, and herbal. And I'm in love with it just like I'm in love with the Greek Underworld.
Amanda: It tastes like my semester abroad in London, which was Ribena and Dark and Stormy only.
Julia: Incredible. So very good.
Amanda: Yep.
Amanda: All right. So, with these in hand, let's talk about Nyx’ kids. We will start with Hypnos, who video game correspondent, Eric Silver, calls, “What a sleepy bitch. LOL. He loves – he loves to tell you how you died. What a jerk. He's known as super lazy and always sleeping,” which, honestly, fair because he is, after all, the embodiment of sleep. In most stories, Hypnos is said to live in a cave at the mouth of the River Lethe or Forgetfulness, which is one of the rivers of the Underworld. We'll talk more about those later. Don't worry.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: If you look at the art of Hypnos in the Hades game, you'll notice that he has two red poppies adorning his belt. Poppies were one of the symbols of Hypnos. And it was said that a field of them as well as other hypnotic plants grow at the entrance of his cave. Overall, most stories about him are pretty chill. He's a pretty chilled god. And he has a strong affinity for humans and helping them out since they spend half of their life dreaming. He is married to one of the graces named Pasithea, whose name makes sense because she is the deity of relaxation and also hallucination. Basically, he's married to the goddess of really good trips, which I absolutely love. It's fantastic.
Amanda: So good. I've been watching a lot of Gilmore Girls and it reminds me of bad Beth. Not exactly the same, but similar energy. And I, I think Gilmore Girls fans will agree with me.
Julia: Yes, love that sleepy bitch. So, his twin brother is Thanatos, who we're going to talk about next. So, checking back in with video game correspondent, Eric Silver, on Thanatos, he says, “He's basically the ship for Zag. He disapproves of Zag trying to escape like the stuck up love interest to your chaotic angry Zag. There are some levels where you compete against Than to see who can kill the most monsters in a level. If you beat him, he gives you 25 percent health,” which is awesome. Very good.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: So, hey, fun fact, Hades, you get two characters that you can romance. One being Thanatos and then we'll get to the other one a little bit later. But, more importantly, Thanatos is the personification of death, which people confuse him with Hades fairly often. But, to clarify, Hades is the god of the dead and ruler of the Underworld. The dead come under Hades domain after they die.
Amanda: Right.
Julia: Where Thanatos is literally the personification of death. He brings death to mortals and gods sometimes acting as a guide for the dead. Though, sometimes, that role is taken over by Hermes, the messenger god. Thanatos is, sometimes, specified to be the god of peaceful death with the bloodthirsty Charos embodying violent death. But it's rare that that specification is made. But, because of this, he's often shown in contrast to his twin brother Hypnos like we saw earlier.
Amanda: I mean death is the, the deepest sleep, right? So, that makes total sense.
Julia: Yeah. Interestingly, he is usually represented by the butterfly, which shares the same word for soul in Ancient Greek or life. And – or he's associated as well with the poppy same as Hypnos.
Amanda: Cool.
Julia: Very cool.
Amanda: What if a butterfly lands on a poppy, Julia? Will I then immediately fall asleep and then die?
Julia: Yes. Yes, you would.
Amanda: No. No.
Julia: Every time, the --
Amanda: I gotta get my star dew farm in order. I'm growing so many poppies right now.
Julia: Every time a butterfly lands on a poppy, someone dies.
Amanda: Oh, no. I mean it’s probably true, all things considered, but --
Julia: It's like the shitty version of, every time a bell rings, an angel gets its wings. Moving on, from some of the screenshots that I've seen of the game, I know that Charon is the, like, merchant NPC of the game that you can buy items from, which makes sense given, in Greek mythology, he is the ferryman for the souls of the dead to take them across the River Styx. And, of course, as a ferryman, he needs to be paid. So, the Greeks would --
Amanda: Coin lad.
Julia: The Greeks would bury their dead with a coin in or on their mouth and that was specifically known as Charon's obol, O – B – O - L. As such, it would make sense for Charon to be rolling in coins and currency in the game. But here's some of the stuff that I didn't know from video game correspondent, Eric Silver. What a good nonspeaking lad. So, you had – I told him what I knew already. So, he continues. So, you had most of the stuff about Charon, right? But you can also fight him. Sometimes, a bag of money appears behind Charon and you can “borrow” 30 gold. And, if you do, Charon will send Zagreus in Erebus filled with his treasures and four tall golden jars and then tries to kick your ass.
Amanda: Nice.
Julia: Which is very good. Don't steal – don't steal from the ferryman. He's just a nice guy.
Amanda: I'm just thinking too that that practice of burying people with coins must be super helpful to archaeologists who are like, “Oh, great, a way to definitively date this body. Yes, good.”
Julia: Yes. It's not just the Greeks that did this. There's a bunch of different cultures that would bury their dead with some sort of gold or payment for traveling to the afterlife. Charon's name comes from the Greek word for keen gaze or flashing eyes, which may or may not be a euphemism for death. Uncertain. We're going to get into what Erebus is later when we kind of give a breakdown of what the Underworld actually looks like. But, first, we have to talk about the Furies.
Amanda: We sure do. I did just want to say that I think keen eyes sounds like a great euphemism for gay.
Julia: Fair enough.
Amanda: Really, yeah. Your uncle Jimmy has some keen eyes.
Julia: It feels like the name of a – like, early 2000s punk band, Keen Eyes.
Amanda: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: Yeah. Bright Eye, right? So good.
Julia: So, the Furies are also known as the Erineys. And, not like irony, but, like, it's spelled E-R-I-N-Y-E-S. And they are made up of, according to Virgil, three sisters. There's Alecto, meaning endless; Tisiphone, meaning eventual destruction; and Megaera, meaning jealousy. And, much like Thanatos, Megaera is another romanceable character in the game. Our video game correspondent, Eric Silver, says “Meeeeg!” At one point, Meg said something like, “It sucks working for your ex-boyfriend’s father and your ex-boyfriend keeps making you look bad to your boss,” implying that they've had a relationship in the past, interestingly. She is the boss of the first level, Tartarus. Eventually her sister Alecto, who sucks and calls you red blood, and Tisiphone, who can only say the word murderer, LOL, step in instead. I have seen the art for Megaera. She is hot. In the game, she works for Nyx rather than being a daughter of the Night Goddess. The name might sound familiar, but she's distinctly separate from Megara, the wife of Heracles. The Furies were in the Iliad and were called “those under earth take vengeance on men, whosoever hath sworn a false oath.” And their name comes from both the noun meaning strife and the verb meaning to raise, stir, or excite.
Amanda: Like, I know there's obviously misogyny kind of behind the idea that like a shrewish, like, actual harpy, you know, will, will sort of come on you and hold you to your promises the way – I don't know – a reasonable spouse might if you – I don't know – cheat on her. But I do love this so much. I love the image that you – that oath breakers, you know, are surrounded by, like, a – I mean, in my mind, they're very kind of like bird aesthetic --
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: -- and a bunch of like winged, you know, goth harpies.
Julia: Yeah, I, I also like that. They were sent to hear the complaints brought by mortals where the societal structure was broken or, like, the society was contract was broken. So, like, when the young were rude to the old, when hosts are rude to guests, when children go against their parents.
Amanda: Interesting.
Julia: Yeah, it’s really --
Amanda: That's much better than like, “This is what we do because we're in a society.”
Julia: Yeah, it's very much like lawful neutral or lawful evil is a good way to kind of look at the, the Furies. But, when they are found to be broken, the Furies then hound the culprits relentlessly until they are, as the Greeks would say, driven to madness or die from the torment. Specifically, Alecto was said to punish moral crimes like kind of like the deadly sins style stuff.
Amanda: Right.
Julia: Tisiphone punishes murderers, hence, why she can only say murderer according to Eric.
Amanda: Incredible.
Julia: And Megaera punishes oath breakers, thieves, and those who are unfaithful.
Amanda: Cool. I mean, listen, that's all we have, right? It’s like our word to each other.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: That is society is a very tenuous promise that we all grow up having already made by having been born.
Julia: Yeah, the societal contract to the Greeks was extremely important. So, to have, like, these vicious women kind of enforcing it is, is such a fascinating imagery.
Amanda: Also, reminds me, I'm sure any other high school debate kids – raise your hands – whenever --
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: -- we were in – whenever we’re in a debate, you had to like establish the parameters of debate. And I wasn't particularly – like, I wasn't taught like the classics. So, all these, like, you know, bros from private schools who knew all about like, “Oh, yes, Rousseau versus Hobbes versus Locke, bla, bla, bla.” The only thing I knew to reference on the fly if I had to was the social compact.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: I was like, “Well, John Locke's social compact tells me that you're wrong.” And it was always like my --
Julia: You have to be nice to me because of the social compact.
Amanda: My ace in the hole. It was very good.
Julia: Yeah, honestly, a very good one. I love it. So, one last character before we get into the layout of the Greek Underworld. And it is perhaps the most important character in the game in my opinion as someone who has not played it. And that, Amanda, of course, is Cerberus.
Amanda: Love this lad.
Julia: So, according to video game correspondent, Eric Silver, who agrees with me, he says, “The best dog in the world! You can pet him and give him treats and tell him he's great.” Cerberus is the main obstruction in the last level Temple of Styx. Cerberus guards its exit. But you don't have to fight Cerberus. Thank god. Zagreus must find a Satyr Sack, which is a sack of Satyr meat and Cerberus’ favorite snack as a bride to leave the area. Only then can you go to the surface and fight Hades. And, as we know, Amanda, from our many times talking about Cerberus, he is very susceptible to snacks usually --
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: -- in Greek mythology rather than Satyr meat. But, obviously, a pup is gonna want some meat. So, I don't blame the game developers.
Amanda: No.
Julia: You know, sometimes, you just got to give them like a little, like, Slim Jim worth Satyr meat. And, of course, because Cerberus is a guard dog, it makes sense for him to be the final obstruction of the game before you pass out of Hades as he is supposed to stop the living from coming in and the dead from leaving.
Amanda: What a good lad. Eric just turned around the switch to show me Cerberus in a game onscreen.
Julia: Good boy.
Amanda: He’s like, “Amanda, your son.” Yes.
Julia: Good spot for the good lad. But, now, let's talk about the Underworld, also known as Hades in the physical sense. Eric explained that, in the game, there are four levels of the Underworld. There is Tartarus, Asphodel, Elysium, and the Temple of Styx, which is some but not all of the levels of the actual Greek Underworld. Important to the Underworld, as someone who has played the game will know, is the Rivers of the Underworld. Being extremely important not only to the Underworld but in Greek mythology as a whole. Doing a quick rundown of the six main rivers, there are the Styx, which is probably the most important. It is the River of Hatred and circles the Underworld seven times.
Amanda: Same.
Julia: There is the Acheron --
Amanda: Same.
Julia: -- which is the River of Pain. And that is the one that Charon ferries the dead over. There is the Lethe, which we talked about with Hypnos, is the River of Forgetfulness. The Phlegethon which is the River of Fire, which emerges out of the depths of Tartarus. The Cocytus, which is the River of Whaling. And, finally, Oceanus, which is the river that encircles the world and marks the most eastern edge of the Underworld. A lot of rivers.
Amanda: I didn't know there was more than one river in Hades.
Julia: Yeah, you would think it's just Styx for the amount that we talk about it. But there's several of them.
Amanda: Yeah. So, is it – I mean I know we kind of refer to the Underworld as Hades in vernacular. Is that right?
Julia: Yes, it is.
Amanda: Or is that just kind of like – okay. Good.
Julia: Yes, It is used both for the physical place and the name of the god that rules over it.
Amanda: Nice.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: I didn't want to be improper here.
Julia: No, I appreciate you asking and I'm happy to answer because I knew the answer.
Amanda: Yay. Love when that happens.
Julia: So, Tartarus or the pit is next up. It is so deep in the earth. Sources say that it is as deep in the earth as the sky is high above the surface of the earth.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: So, very, very, very, very deep.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: This is where Zeus imprisoned the Titans after they were defeated by the Olympians. And Homer claims that some of the worst people in the Underworld are sent to Tartarus to be punished by the Titans for their misdeeds. Like many of the places in the Underworld, it is both a place and a deity. The deity being one of the primordial beings alongside Chaos and Gaia. The game also talks about Erebus as a place. Though, it is also a god, the sibling of Nyx, and a Child of Chaos in Greek mythology. He is the personification of darkness, whereas an Nyx is the personification of the night. The term also in Greek refers to “the place of darkness between Earth and Hades.” Though, it is still not a place in the underworld, but, again, an embodiment of the physical aspect of the primordial being. Confusingly, some Greek literature does make the different distinction saying it is a region of the Underworld where the dead pass into immediately after dying, while others use it interchangeably with Tartarus. Honestly, there's a lot of this in Greek mythology. A lot of a thing being the literal embodiment of a thing, while, other times, it's a god, or a concept, or place. And it's – it's just a little confusing because, again, there's been so many different versions that these stories hold and so many variations in different kinds of worship over the years. So --
Amanda: Yeah. And it's a thing that we love to say just in kind of poetic speech. You know, like, you'll say like, “Oh, yeah. You know, the word chaos incarnate,” right? Like, you – or, you know, they embodied whatever. And, when you're talking about beings that literally make or made or are those things, I think we're allowed a little bit of kind of linguistic slippage, you know.
Julia: Okay. Good. That's something at least. Next up, there is the Asphodel Meadows, which is sort of like the place where ordinary souls go. These are people that --
Amanda: Are you sure that's not like a golf course in Queens?
Julia: It does sound like it does, doesn't it?
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: So, this is where like people who didn't really commit any horrible crimes or misdeeds but also didn't really achieve greatness or recognition [Inaudible 36:49].
Amanda: Oh, brutal.
Julia: It's kind of like in the Good Place where there's the medium place. It's like that.
Amanda: Right.
Julia: There's also the Mourning Fields, which are for those who died feeling as though they wasted their lives or died with their love unrequited.
Amanda: Oh, shit.
Julia: There's a lot of these in Greek mythology, unfortunately. And it's almost exclusively full of women, which is not great to be honest. So, we're going to get out of here and we're going to talk about Elysium instead.
Amanda: Great.
Julia: So, Elysium is the place of the distinguished soul. So, these are the ones where, like, they’re other heroes or demigods or people who lived their lives purely and righteously. For instance, Socrates, despite not being a hero or a demigod, is said to reside in Elysium after he died because of his great accomplishments and philosophy. This is also, like, where heroes like Achilles and Peleus are said to reside in death. There is one final place contained within Elysium, which is known as the Isles of the Blessed or the Fortunate Isles, where souls that were granted entrance into Elysium were sometimes given the option to be reborn. And, if they were reborn three times and lived lives worthy of Elysium each time they lived, they were then sent to the Isles of the Blessed. Basically, like the best place to reside in in the afterlife. The, like, best place.
Amanda: That really feels like a video game, you know --
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: -- where you think that you achieve it, but then it's like, “Oh, no, no, no. You have to do that again three times perfectly. And then you get to go to the final place.”
Julia: Yes, it's like, “Oh, okay. Well, if you beat the game in expert mode three times, then you get this cool bonus feature.”
Amanda: You also just, like, unlocked in me, like, memories of being in, like, middle to late high school and reading, you know, like Yeats and Keats and, and, like, all these – Pyrrho and all these fucking guys who, like, went to college learning Greek and Latin and we're like, “Oh, yes, the Elysian Fields.” And, you know, if you don't look up every freaking reference these people made to Greek and Roman mythology, you like miss out on half the meaning. Or, if you don't just happen to know the Bible back to front, you know, you're going to miss like quotings or paraphrasings or references. And I think, Julia, it's pretty bullshit, man.
Julia: You're just like, “Who the fuck is Jove? And why do they keep saying by Jove?”
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: I like that. I like that a lot. So, lastly, I want to talk about the weapons in the game because I know it's an important aspect to your strategy and gameplay. So, in the game, there are six weapons that you can unlock; each of them, apparently, being a weapon that was used by one of the Olympians during the battle with the Titans. A lot of these are not super accurate. I'm not gonna lie to you, but I'll break down the interesting aspects of each of them and kind of how they tie to mythology. So, first up is the Stygian blade supposedly used by Poseidon and named after the River Styx, Stygian meaning of Styx. There are two aspects of the Stygian blade, which I would like to point out. One of them is associated with the goddess Nemesis, who is the goddess of retribution and revenge. And it deals, like, bonus critical damage, which makes sense given its namesake. The final hidden aspect of the sword is linked to King Arthur, which is where the developers kind of start dipping into other mythologies. Like, obviously, King Arthur is associated with another blade, the Sword of Excalibur. And it's like whole tied up into the Christian mythos in his search for the Holy Grail. So, the fact that one of its moves is called hallowed ground shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. But it's – it's interesting.
Amanda: I just see that as kind of an interesting nod, you know. Like, by the time you're kind of making your way into different aspects of the weapons, you know, you’re – you’re pretty into mythology or, at least, know enough of it that you can be like, “Oh, yeah, I know. Tight.”
Julia: Well, don't worry, they do that for all the weapons.
Amanda: I think that's okay.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: I think that’s okay.
Julia: I don't think it's – I don't think it's wrong. I think some of them are a bit of a stretch though. We'll see. So, next up is Varatha, which is the eternal spear and, supposedly, the weapon used by Hades. Hades isn't typically known to use a spear. But, interestingly, Varatha is a spear that has two points, which is interesting because Hades is sometimes depicted carrying a bident or a two-pronged pitchfork.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: Hmm, interesting, right? So, the name Varatha comes from the Tamil word for do not come in or Varathan which means outsider, which is fitting as Hades is kind of separated from the rest of the Olympians after the fall of the Titans. The other aspect of it Varatha ties the weapon to Achilles, who is also seen with a bifurcated or divided into two spear. So, it's like – you're like, “Oh, there's people who are actually using this kind of weapon,” which is interesting. And, at least, they tied that to the right people this time.
Amanda: Bident is the preferred gum of bisexuals everywhere.
Julia: Oh, fuck yeah. That's very funny.
Amanda: I'll take it.
Julia: The final secret aspect is tied to the deified Chinese general, Guan Yu, who is associated with kind of, like, loyalty and righteousness and is also said to have invented the Guandao, which is a pole weapon similar to a spear and Guan Yu’s Guandao was known as the Green Dragon Crescent Blade.
Amanda: Incredible.
Julia: So, that's a good tie. I like that one. I’m into that. Then there is Aegis, which is the Shield of Chaos. This was Zeus’ weapon in the war against the Titans and does actually, for ones, have a direct tie to a mythological weapon of the same name. This was a --
Amanda: Also, a Pokemon, Julia.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: Aegislash is the steel/ghost type Pokemon introduced in Generation VI.
Julia: So, this was a goatskin shield sometimes depicted with the head of a Gorgon and was used not only by Zeus but by Athena as well. The game ties one of the aspects of the shield to the primordial being, Chaos, who, in the game, mentions using it to spy on the gods, which I think is really interesting and something very chaotic, which makes sense.
Amanda: Yeah. Sometimes, you're like, “Oh, yeah, that that is what this concept that we encounter all the time in life is named after. Yes, that makes sense.”
Julia: The hidden aspect is tied to Beowulf, which is, you know, the, the infamous Danish hero.
Amanda: From the Old English poem.
Julia: The assumption I can make here is that Beowulf is usually shown as, like, a heroic figure who went into battle to protect others, which I guess would associate him with a shield, but I think it's a bit of a stretch. Like, he's shown using a shield, but it's not like a shield was, like, infamous. And, usually, when he was in battle, he was, like, tearing off the arms of things rather than being like, “Oh, yes, I hit him with my shield like Captain America.” So, the next weapon is the Coronacht, which is the heart-seeking bow and is the weapon of Hera because --
Amanda: My favorite doughnut ever made and my favorite food trend of the late 2010s. That’s all I have to it.
Julia: The heart-seeking bow.
Amanda: The cronut.
Julia: Oh, the Coronacht. Aha, I get it. I got it. Great.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: So, this is the weapon of Hera because, obviously, it's always the woman who gets bows. And I can go on a tirade about women very rarely getting good, like, up close martial weapons, but that is a story for another time and another complaint. The name seems to come from the Gaelic word, coronach, which means funeral song. I probably pronounced that wrong. I apologize. And the aspects tied to the weapon are Hera and Chiron, the Centaur trainer of heroes who is often depicted as wielding a bow and arrow. The hidden aspect of this weapon is Rama who is the avatar of the god, Vishnu, in Hindu religion. Rama is strongly associated with the bow and arrow, often being depicted with the arrow in his right hand and the bow in his left.
Amanda: Right on.
Julia: Really mixing it up with these mythologies. Love it. Next up is the Twin Fists of Malphon, said to be used by the goddess, Demeter, which now we're talking with some close up combat for a woman. The name doesn't really mean anything. You can kind of, like, roughly, in Greek, get something close to bad voice. But the weapon is said to encourage fury and rage while also engulfing them in, like, primal strength. Besides Demeter, the weapon is tied to Talos, who, in Greek mythology, was a bronze giant who, in some stories, was interpreted as, like, an automaton or a robot. Hesiod’s version of the stories from the Bronze Age portray, like, men from the Bronze Age as being literally made of bronze.
Amanda: Another good Spirits back catalogue pick is video game correspondent, Eric, talking golems, which is one of my favorite of all time.
Julia: Absolutely. In other stories, he was made by the forge god, Hephaestus, and given to Zeus as a protector for his lover, Europa. The secret aspect of the fists, Malphon, is our boy, Gilgamesh, who as, you know, has pretty close ties to the Underworld and Sumerian tradition --
Amanda: Sure does.
Julia: -- and is not afraid to get into a little bit of hand-to-hand combat.
Amanda: Sure wasn't, Julia. Sure wasn't.
Julia: There’s a lot of very masculine wrestling and throwing of bulls of heaven and hoping.
Amanda: Some pining.
Julia: Yep.
Amanda: Lots of stuff.
Julia: So, finally, there is the Exagryph, which is the Adamant Rail which is just like an eagle gun. Like, what the fuck? This one was wielded, supposedly, by Hestia. You know, Hestia, the goddess who rarely gets into any sort of trouble and spends most of her time at the hearth of Olympus minding her own goddamn business, Hestia?
Amanda: Okay. Fair.
Julia: Adam is, unsurprisingly, the hardest of all substances in Greek mythology. It's supposed to be, like, harder than steel and diamond. So, the name Exagryph probably comes from the fact that Hestia is the sixth child. Exa meaning six and gryph as in, like, gryphons or flying creature, which kind of makes sense with the eagle head. And also because, like, the shots are flying creatures, I don't know. This one's a bit of a stretch again. I'm just like, “Okay. You gave them a gun. Cool, I guess.”
Amanda: I just think that the first company to actually establish high speed rail in the US should be called Adamant Rail.
Julia: Yes. Yes, they should. Agreed, 100 percent.
Amanda: Right? Like, fuck you, we need good public transportation.
Julia: We really do, please. Please we beg of you. Give us high speed rail. So, the next aspect is Eris, who is another goddess associated with this weapon, which totally makes sense because she's the goddess of strife and probably the most well-known for kicking off the Trojan War. So, giving her a gun kind of makes sense.
Amanda: In a way.
Julia: Yeah, sure. And the hidden aspects tied to the weapon is, of course, of all beings, Lucifer. Okay.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: Which, sure, Hellfire and the Underworld and all that. But, again, feels like a little bit of a pull.
Amanda: Why do we need a Christian devil up in here?
Julia: I don't know. Why are we just getting the Christian devil? Why is that happening?
Amanda: I don't think we need that.
Julia: I don't think we do in a game about Greek mythology. We have enough Christian mythos with King Arthur. We're good. We're good.
Amanda: And the, the society in which we are steeped.
Julia: And that, Amanda, is our tour of the Greek Underworld and how the game Hades stacks up. If you're like me, you're probably desperately waiting for this game to come out on any other console besides Switch. And, you know, I'm probably going to be yelling about it months after everyone else has already beaten it when it finally does come out on a different console. But I'm excited to play it and getting to break down the Greek Underworld and talk about it and think about how this game did a fairly good job with a lot of its mythology has me really stoked.
Amanda: Yeah. And I appreciate you giving us the great context. I loved the, you know, snippets of the game that videogame correspondent, Eric Silver, showed me in our home as he was playing it. But, if you want to follow him on Twitter and get great video game takes and humor and other just general good stuff on your Twitter timeline, he is @El_Silvero.
Julia: That's his name if he was a Lucha libre wrestler. So, Amanda, I wish everyone the best of luck in trying to escape the Underworld as they play Hades. And I hope that they remember to stay creepy.
Amanda: And stay cool.
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Amanda: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
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Julia: Thank you so much for listening. Till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil