Episode 229: The Secret Tunnels of Europe (Erdstalls)
/They’re mysterious, they’re everywhere, and they’re not quite tall enough to stand up in. This week we explore erdstalls, the completely mystifying thousand-year-old tunnels scattered through Europe. We ask important questions like who made them, what were they used for, and most importantly—would we go into one?!
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of claustrophobia, tunnel collapses, suffocation, burials, and death/mourning.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Amanda recommends Rose Eveleth’s new book Flash Forward.
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Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda. And Julia is taking a much deserved break. So, it's just me telling you about Episode 229: Erdstalls. I loved this conversation. Julia and I recorded it last week and I spent the rest of the weekend, like, googling this topic looking up pictures, looking up examples, reading Reddit threads. I really went down a rabbit hole and I think – or down in Erdstalls as you're soon gonna know and I think you will be as well. But, first, I would like to welcome our newest patrons; Matthew, Jennifer, Pointing cat, Kathrun, and Lexa, who I would definitely follow down into an Erdstall, I think. And our supporting producer level patrons who would make sure that I do not get caught and that I have exactly the materials and supplies I need to get out; Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Bryan, Debra, Hannah, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Liz, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Polly, Captain Jonathan MAL-uh-kye Cosmos, Sanna, Sarah, Scott, Skyla, and Zazi. No, Sanna, Sarah, and Scott, as I go through the different vowel pronunciations of your names, I just want to thank you three in particular because I try really hard to get it right. And our legend level patrons finally; Audra, Drew, Jack Marie, Ki, Lada, Morgan, Necroroyalty, Renegade, SamneyTodd, & Bea Me Up Scotty. We're so grateful for all of you. You make it possible for this to be our jobs. And, in fact, this week, I just want to remind everybody that our Patreon starts at just $1 an episode. That's a handful of dollars a month. That's probably less than a latte costs near you. And that support goes a huge way toward helping us make sure we can keep making the show. In fact, we just past 400 patrons. Meaning, that's right, we are working on a Spirits tarot deck. We could not be more excited. We could not do this without your support. And, in case you're curious, the next Spirits Patreon goal is at 6,666 patrons. I will fully buy a castle in Ireland. So, just to let you know, like, that is on the table here. I will fully buy a castle in Ireland. And we will post photos of it. Maybe you can visit. Who knows. That is very exciting. And the fact that we can be in our sixth year past our five-year anniversary of doing this podcast, continue to get new folks supporting us and old folks who have been there since pretty much year one, we're just so grateful for. So, if you have a few bucks a month to spare to support any creators, I think, that's awesome. If you choose one of those creators to be us, we're very, very grateful. And you can go to patreon.com/spiritspodcast to get extras like bonus urban legend episodes every month, recipe cards, and directors commentaries for each episode, and a number of other awesome benefits. And, speaking of great things, I would love to recommend a new book by a previous guest, Rose Eveleth, who was on the show a few months ago to talk about Frankenstein. Just a person that I respected for so long in podcasting. Someone I get to work with from time to time and whose work I just love. Like, I look forward to new episodes of Flash Forward so often. But, now, there's a whole new way to enjoy her futurist, let's look at the future with optimism but also realism, and kind of examine the ways that we could get there also with beautiful art. Graphic novel is out now. Rose made a graphic novel also titled Flash Forward that is a total kind of, like, sister or companion to the podcast that explores some of the same ideas that she works through in the show in a whole new beautiful visual way. So, you should pick up a copy of Flash Forward today. It is beautiful. It is worth your time. It'll be a great gift, I promise you. You can go to spiritspodcast.com/books to see a list of all the books by previous guests as well as books that you'd recommend on the show. Flash Forward’s on both. We love it. We love Rose. Congrats on your book release, my friend. And, guys, I promise you're gonna want to buy it. So, I'm wishing Julia a very good week off. And, everybody, now, it is time to get a little creeped out and very fascinated with Episode 229: The Secret Tunnels of Europe, Erdstalls.
Intro Music
Julia: So, Amanda, we've talked about in urban legends episodes how, like, tunnels are inherently creepy.
Amanda: Yes, they are.
Julia: We've had a lot of listeners send us in stories about, like, haunted tunnels underneath their schools, which, like, my school had one of those too and how, like, the underground city in Montreal, Canada has, like, this weird liminal space and, also, like, the path in Toronto. It's wild that they have just, like, full underground cities that, like, span miles in Canada. What's up with that?
Amanda: Yeah, when we're able to travel again, I want to do a catacomb tour of Paris so bad. But, in the meantime, I'm gonna continue rereading the Bell Jar, which my main takeaway from that book was, “Yeah, underground tunnels in a sanatorium even creepier than a sanatorium.”
Julia: Hmm. Hmm. Always. Yeah, the fact that they just used to wheel the dead bodies out of there through the underground tunnels, that’s – umm, umm, no, not a big fan of that.
Amanda: Uh-umm. No. Uh-umm.
Julia: But, tunnels, they're creepy. And, thankfully, on the Multitude team, we're not the only ones who are big fans of, like, all things creepy and cool because Brandon the other day messaged me with this article on something that I hadn't heard of before. And, if you guys don't know Brandon, Brandon is one of the players and the sound designer on Join the Party. Go listen to Join the Party. It's fun.
Amanda: It's so good. You'll love it.
Julia: So, he sent me an article on something that I hadn't heard of before, which is Erdstalls.
Amanda: I don't know what this is either.
Julia: Yes, good. Basic definition of an Erdstall is that it is a tunnel. It is a specific type of tunnel. They're found across Europe. And we're not exactly sure what they're used for.
Amanda: Oh, I love it. I love a little historical archaeological mystery.
Julia: Yes. And we're not exactly sure when they were made, or why they were made, and who made them?
Amanda: You know, I bet there are, though, a lot of really interesting folkloric explanations.
Julia: Oh, oh, bud, you are correctamundo.
Amanda: Hooray.
Julia: Wow. I feel like a 90s cartoon character by saying correctamundo. [Chuckles]
Amanda: [Chuckles]
Julia: So, the first documented mention of an Erdstall was in 1449. And the name in German either translates to earth table, or earth stable, or mining tunnel.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: So, there is a couple of notable local names for them as well, which I tried my best to look up these German pronunciations. I am sorry if I don't nail them properly. Schrazelloch, which means goblin hole, and Alraunenhöhleour, which means mandrake cave.
Amanda: Okay. Mandrake?
Julia: Mandrake.
Amanda: But what are mandrakes?
Julia: So, mandrakes are plants that their bulbs tend to grow into, like, the shape of babies.
Amanda: Got it.
Julia: And, so, in a lot of fiction, you'll see them as, like, actual babies. And they were used a lot in, like, folkloric medicine, and alchemy, and, like, witchcraft.
Amanda: Cool. Much like a narwhal. You know, I had those narwhal moments from time to time, Julia, where I'm just not 1,000 percent sure if it is real or fantasy.
Julia: It's both. So, that's good.
Amanda: Excellent.
Julia: So, the problem is that there is not a lot of archaeological evidence or materials that can be used for dating these tunnels. So, it's not like there's a lot of, like, pottery or tools—
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: —that are found in these Erdstalls that can be used to date them, basically. One of the few things that has allowed archaeologists to date the tunnels was coal from a fire pit at one point, which helped them date it to about 1030 or 1210, somewhere in that range.
Amanda: Interesting. Because, yeah, I mean, if it's just a tunnel on the ground and until, you know, extremely recently, in the course of human history, it was hand tools that we did that with. I get how that'd be really hard.
Julia: Yeah, there was also evidence in a separate tunnel of coal that was dated back to 950. But that is, like, the earliest archaeological evidence that we can find that allows us to date these tunnels.
Amanda: I mean that's pretty long ago, particularly for a project of such kind of scale.
Julia: Yeah. Why are you and I talking about these tunnels, Amanda? Just because they're, like, kind of weird tunnels, right? They are mysterious, weird tunnels that are interesting. Sure. But is that worth an entire Spirits episode?
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: Hmm. The thing is, Amanda, it's not just, like, a few mysterious tunnels. There are over 2,000 known Erdstall tunnels throughout Europe. So, over 2,000 of these tunnels that we don't know what they are, and why they were made, or what they're used for.
Amanda: That's like a room in a house that we don't know why it's there. Like, that is pretty widespread.
Julia: Yeah. And they've been found in France, in Britain, in Scotland, but the majority of them have been found in Austria and Bavaria. Something like 500 have been found in Austria, 700 have been found in Bavaria, or vice versa. I can't remember which. The next big question is like, yes, these are tunnels. But what do these tunnels look like? Why do we know that these are Erdstalls and not just, like, interesting tunnels that we found?
Amanda: A root cellar, which are also very interesting. If you have a root cellar, I'd love to see it. Thank you.
Julia: I love root cellars. I wish – I need to buy a house that has a root cellar. I think I would have to, like, move to a farm country in order to do that.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Because they don't build root cellars at the suburbs usually.
Amanda: Yeah, all the houses around here that are that old are quite expensive by now.
Julia: That is true. Unless, it is just dilapidated and—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: I saw a house recently. Sorry. I've been on Zillow kick lately.
Amanda: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, me too.
Julia: I saw a house recently. They were like, “Ah, you know, give us $450,000 for this.” I'm like, “This – clearly, this house was on fire.
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: Why would I give you money? You won't show me interior photos and there's burn marks on the outside. I'm not giving you that.
Amanda: That'll do it. That'll do it. But I mean, speaking of fires, my main question here is, like, what human misery necessitated these tunnels. Like, is it religious persecution? Like, what, what's happening here?
Julia: You're asking the good questions, Amanda.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: But, first, we're gonna talk about construction because construction is how we know that these are Erdstall tunnels and not just, like, random tunnels. So, there was a archaeologist named Herbert Wimmer, who began to categorize the tunnels in a research study in 2000 and classified them into four different types, which is types A through D. But, first, let's talk about the general construction of the Erdstall tunnels because this is, like, how we define them and then we can get into the differences.
Amanda: Cool.
Julia: They are very low and very narrow. So, usually, only at most about four and a half feet tall and the smallest being only a little bit taller than three feet.
Amanda: That is very small.
Julia: Mhmm. And the maximum width of these tunnels is only about two feet wide, which is wild. Like, the average person is about two feet wide, I feel like.
Amanda: Yeah, or greater. Like, airline seats even have to be, like, 29 or 30 inches and that's only small enough to be a person.
Julia: Yes. So, these tunnels we know are not naturally occurring. They're definitely human made. You can tell by the, like, carvings and the way that the walls are kind of – these, like, oblong, oval passages. So, we know that they were made by humans. And it isn't usually just a single tunnel. But, it is a series or system of tunnels that is carved into that smooth, ovular shape. Sometimes, they connect to these other lower tunnels through a small passage, which is called schlupf, which literally translates to slip out.
Amanda: Incredible. These schlupfs, I cannot stress enough, are extremely tight. Like, I found a lot of photos of, like, young adults or tweens that were able to pass through them through, like, a series of, like, contortions, and maneuvering, and squeezing. But most adults probably wouldn't be able to pass through them.
Amanda: Oh, my, like, even, you know, when we accept that humans, because of malnutrition before, we're smaller, that is still so surprising.
Julia: Going to the schlupfs a little bit more, some archaeologists believe that the schlupfs were made to kind of promote airflow through these tunnels. But, again, nothing is really certain about these things. So, we're not entirely sure.
Amanda: Interesting.
Julia: Going back to Herbert Wimmer’s classification of the different Erdstalls, let's run through the different types real quick. So, Type A, were these long, single galleries that had the schlupfs or the slip passages and short side slopes. Type B were, like, multiple levels that were connected via the vertical slit passages, the schlupfs. And it seems like these were, like, construction tunnels that were then closed off after the primary channels were completed. And most interestingly about Type B, in my opinion, is Type B had these, like, seating niches that were cut out of the tunnel. Though, like, my question is, like, why would you want to sit in a dark, poorly ventilated, small tunnel. Who can say?
Amanda: Or shelves, potentially.
Julia: Potentially. But they were very low to the ground. So, it seemed as if it was more for sitting, I guess, instead of shelving. And I'll explain why later, but you would think the shelving would be higher up in the tunnel than lower.
Amanda: I totally agree with you. I also just wanted a chance to say the sentence. What is a seat but a shelf for a butt?
Julia: Thank you for that. That is—
Amanda: Right.
Julia: —very helpful. I appreciate it.
Amanda: Right.
Julia: I appreciate it.
Amanda: [Chuckles] I'm picturing like a little, like, wall niche where you would put, like, a statue or an object of veneration or something.
Julia: That is an interesting choice. But, again, like, wouldn’t we have found those objects of veneration by now probably?
Amanda: In theory. Yeah.
Julia: So, Type C is more multiple horizontal slit passages. And then there is sort of, like, this round trip tunnel that at the end or in the middle is, like, high enough to walk through upright.
Amanda: Hmm.
Julia: So, that one's like – it almost like is a tunnel that leads to an area that is wider and perhaps—
Amanda: Right.
Julia: —could fit more objects or more people or what have you. And then, finally, there is Type D, which is multiple chambers that are connected through tunnels with horizontal slit passages spread throughout.
Amanda: I am so intrigued. I have no fucking idea what this could be about.
Julia: And not a lot of people do know, which is the best part. This is the coolest part about the Erdstalls.
Amanda: I'm trying to picture too. Like, it doesn't sound like there's even a consistent size. Like, I'm sure that someone would have figured out if it was, like, the size of a barrel of beer, you know. And, like, it was created purpose built for a purpose that we can identify. But the fact that we can't, and it's too small to really be comfortable for people, and it doesn't go somewhere, oh, man, that's so interesting.
Julia: Yeah. And there's over 2,000 of them and we don't know what they were for. It's wild. Okay.
Amanda: Oh, my.
Julia: So, a big reason that a lot of people don't know about Erdstalls has a lot to do with the fact that, like, the tunnels are too narrow to allow anyone who's not a researcher or scholar to explore them.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: So, there's two in Austria that have been expanded slightly so that they can be explored and viewed. One is in Perg in Upper Austria and the other is in Großkrut in Lower Austria. However, interest in the Erdstalls was somewhat, like, revitalized by an article in 2011 in the German newspaper, Der Spiegel. And the article in question kind of starts with the story of a dairy farmer who had one of her cows just, like, fall into a crater on the earth and led to the discovery of an 82-foot long tunnel system beneath their property.
Amanda: Whoa.
Julia: Notably, because her husband attempted to investigate the tunnel and almost got himself trapped in the narrow halls. However, both he and the researchers who eventually came to investigate the tunnels found that the lack of oxygen cut most of their investigations short.
Amanda: Oh, oh, baby. I mean that'll do it.
Julia: That'll do it. But all of this kind of continues to raise the question, right? Like, what were these tunnels for and why were they built? And I will dig into that. Get it? Dig because, because—
Amanda: I do.
Julia: Just as soon as we go and grab a refill.
Amanda: Let’s to do it.
Midroll Music
Amanda: We are sponsored this week by Brooklinen, one of the best parts of my day every day is getting into the bed, which I call the buttery soft because we have buttery soft Brooklinen and sheets on it. And they, honestly, make this daily occurrence into something luxurious. And that is what they do for all kinds of things, not just bedding, but loungewear. I am wearing a Brooklinen lounge t-shirt right now. This is not a lie. I did not plan this. I just wear one of these t-shirts basically every other day. They also make towels. I recently got a hand towel from them. Again, with my human money. They didn't send it to me. I just bought it because I love it so much. And, also, robes, which I'm saving up for. I'm gonna treat myself to a robe. So, trust me, you are going to want to give yourself the comfort refresh you deserve and get it for less at Brooklinen. So, go to brooklinen.com and use promo code Spirits to get $20 off your minimum purchase of $100. That's brooklinen, B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N.com and enter promo code Spirits for $20 off with a minimum purchase of $100. That is brooklinen.com promo code Spirits. And let me know what you get because, I promise, you're gonna love it. We are also sponsored by Doordash, which is a great way to connect with restaurants you love and, also, get things, like, grocery essentials in your neighborhood. Whether it's takeout food, drinks, snacks or other household items that you need delivered today, you can do it with Doordash. It's very easy to do. Just open the Doordash app. Choose what you want from where you want, including, like, multiple locations. And the items will be left to safely outside your door with contactless delivery drop off as a setting that you can choose. They have over 300,000 partners in the US, Puerto Rico, Canada, and Australia. So, you can use Doordash to get favorites from national chains or restaurants in your neighborhood. So, for a limited time, our listeners can get 25 percent off and zero delivery fees on your first order of $15 or more when you download the Doordash app and enter the code CreepyCool. That’s 25 percent off up to a $10 value and zero delivery fees on your first order when you download the Doordash app in the App Store and enter code CreepyCool. Don't forget code CreepyCool for 25 percent off your first order with Doordash. Subject to change. Terms apply. And, finally, we're welcoming a new sponsor to the show. It's Rothy’s. This is a company that makes stylish and sustainable shoes and bags. And one of the challenges I have during summer is that I feel like my feet are, like, delicate baby's feet in that I get blisters if I so much as, like, tying my shoe laces. Like, anything changes about the shoes that I'm wearing and, suddenly, I'm getting blisters all over the place. So, I was really delighted that, when I tried Rothy’s, the sneakers did not give me blisters. And, finally, I can just truly have a pair of slip on sneakers where I can slip it on and go. And they're stylish. They're very nice. There's tons of style options, and colors, and things like that. But most importantly for me is that they are comfortable but also sustainable. They have transformed nearly 100 million bottles into beautiful shoes, handbags, and face masks. And they're also fully machine washable. So, particularly, in summer when you want to wear your stylish white shoes, you know, but you also have to, you know, go places and walk places, it is very easy to keep them looking great. So, go check out all the amazing shoes, bags, and masks available right now at rothys.com/spirits. That's R-O-T-H-Y-S.com/spirits. Style and sustainability meet to create your new favorites. So, go to rothys.com/spirits today. And, now, let's get back to the show.
Julia: So, for this episode, I wanted to pick something kind of earthy and mysterious. But, if you know me, you know I'm not a huge fan of, like, whiskies, and scotch, and bourbon, which are your typical earthy cocktail mixers, you know.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: So, for this one, I found a great recipe that I kind of did a little bit of twisting on my own, which is a vanilla, black pepper, and thyme Martini.
Amanda: Fascinating. See, Julia, this is why this is your job and not mine. I would have just said a mudslide.
Julia: A mudslide would be very good, actually.
Amanda: Thank you.
Julia: I'm just like, “How do I make this as complicated as possible?” And you're like, “What if we went to Applebee's?” And I was like, “What if we did go to Applebee's?”
Amanda: Listen, there is a point in everyone's pandemic where you, you just kind of yearn for a TGI Fridays cocktail.
Julia: Don't we all? Don't we all? God, I just want to go to a place and drink a margarita and have chips and salsa. That's it.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But my whole point of this cocktail is because it allows me to play with one of my favorite things for cocktails especially for summer, which is simple syrups because, god, simple syrups are the best. And they are so easy to make. And more people should make their own simple syrups at home. Like, last year, I was making gin sours with Sichuan peppercorn simple syrup that I made at home and it was the best.
Amanda: Yeah, it's a really good use for extra herbs. If you have, like, buy a bunch and you're like, “What, what else can I use all this parsley for it?” that’ll be a great way to use it. Rick Martinez has a recipe, I think, over on Food Network, simple syrup, which is like a mix of herbs. You use, like, unprocessed like coconut sugar, cane sugar. It's really delicious.
Julia: People at home, do not be intimidated by simple syrup. They're the best. They can absolutely make a cocktail. All it this is a cup of water or, like, it doesn't even have to be a cup. It's equal parts water and sugar and then whatever you want it to taste like. So, you want lemon.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: Lemon simple syrup. Rosemary, sure, throw some rosemary in there and you just strain the rosemary out when you finish the simple syrup. And you just cook it on a slow boil until it gets a nice thick consistency and you got simple syrup.
Amanda: It's very, very good. Use a little funnel. Get yourself a little diner squeeze bottle. Mark it with masking tape and then you're gonna feel like a chef, I promise.
Julia: Yeah, you can get those for $1 at the dollar store. That's what I did last summer.
Amanda: And they last four months. Ah, this is great. And then you can pretend that your cupboard or, like, the door of your fridge is a little Erdstall with all your little guys lined up. Perfect size for them. Too small for you, perfect size for something else.
Julia: So, let's begin to talk about the purposes of the Erdstalls or, at least, the theories behind them because, like I said—
Amanda: Yes.
Julia: —we don't know exactly what the purpose of this.
Amanda: [Chuckles]
Julia: So, part of the reason is because there just are no written records of the construction of any of the Erdstalls or, at least, none that archaeologists or scholars have been able to find yet. Some early thoughts of what the Erdstalls might have been was very practical at first. So, they believe that maybe they were used as dwellings, but that was pretty quickly discredited because of the size of the tunnels. The fact that, like, air flow doesn't really allow for extended periods of time to be spent in them and the fact that there's no indication that they were used in that capacity, like, as most dwellings from that period would have. Some others believed that they might have been used to store food, but many of the tunnels have been found to flood and fill up with water in the winter. So, that just would not have allowed for safe food storage.
Amanda: Yeah, that would have been my thought as well where – I mean, certainly, you know, a root cellar is good, but, if it's enclosed on all sides, then maybe the temperature regulation was even better than it would be in a typical root cellar.
Julia: Yeah. Unfortunately, though, flooding happens in a lot of these Erdstalls.
Amanda: Yeah. No.
Julia: And, because of that, it's also highly unlikely that they were used to store livestock for similar reason.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: Also, the fact that there's no evidence of, like, droppings or feces that have been found in the cave, which would have indicated the use of livestock in there.
Amanda: Yeah. Or, like, straw on the floor. Like, people did that in their home.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: So, why wouldn't you do that in a place that either you or your animals were hanging out?
Julia: Exactly. Another theory is that the tunnels were built as hiding places. So, built in a period of instability, where there was usually the threat of, like, robbers and bandits. That was, like, an extremely common thing. So, the theory, which is from an archivist named Josef Weichenberger, was that, like, when bandits were seen coming to, like, raid a remote village – I think of the scene in Lord of the Rings, where, like, they're sending their children off because they can see the, like, incoming armies heading towards the village. So, when they could see these bandits coming to raid the village, the farmers would gather up their valuables and flee into the underground Weichenberger is interesting because he also wanted to prove that his theory was sustainable. So, what he did was he actually locked himself and two other colleagues in an Erdstall for 48 hours—
Amanda: Oh, my god.
Julia: —despite the fact that, like, the lack of airflow could be extremely dangerous. So, they took precautions. They brought oxygen monitors with them. And, when it dropped low or when they started to, like, feel drowsy, what they did was they would, like, crawl deeper into the Erdstall and the schlupfs, those, like, passages allowed for, like, further in to become more ventilated. Like, they would start at the beginning. They would use up the oxygen that was stored in the schlupfs or in the tunnel, like, above them or below them. And then they would move further in. There would be another schlupf, there would be more oxygen.
Amanda: Oh, okay.
Julia: Which is interesting. But I am not entirely convinced by a Weichenberger.
Amanda: And, two, I think, if it was something that everybody started doing because everyone knew it was a good hiding place, like, eventually, you know, if there are 2000 of them and you're an experienced writer, like, you may know, in fact, that that's a thing that you need to check for.
Julia: That's true. So, there was also this Australian spelunker named Edith Bednarik, who was basically refuting Weichenberger’s theories. Pointing out that, like, most of these Erdstalls were not large enough tunnels for people to gather into. So, like, if you had your whole family there, you wouldn't be able to fit those amounts of people. And, like, the chances are your oxygen would run out extremely quickly and probably not by the time that these raiders would leave, you know.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: She also points out that there was no, like, emergency exits, for lack of a better word. If there was any sort of, like, fire or flooding or other emergency while they were in the tunnels, it would just like be a deadly trap rather than a refuge, you know.
Amanda: Yeah. And a spelunker would definitely know that, as a person who's experienced, like, getting into spots where you need to know how you're gonna get out.
Julia: Exactly. I watched a very scary horror movie around Halloween because Jake and I tried to do, like, a horror movie a night for the month of October. I believe it's called The Descent and it is all about, like, spelunking and cave exploring. And all women who, like, to get trapped inside a cave because the leader of their group is like, “Oh, yeah, we've definitely been to this cave before.” And she's like, “No, actually, I lied to you all. This is an unexplored cave. And we don't know anything about it. Whoops. My bad.” Edith also points out that, if Weidchenberger’s theory was correct, then those seeking refuge in Erdstalls probably would have left some sort of trace. Like, there would have been food remains or torch remains. Or, like, one of their valuables would have been lost in one of the Erdstalls. You know what I mean? There would have been some sort of sign that they had been there.
Amanda: Yeah. Or, you leave a little bit of water. Like, you leave a flask. You leave a bottle. Like, you leave something because you know you're gonna have to be there. Why leave it empty?
Julia: Yeah, like, provisions. Like, people who, you know, have, again, root cellars, where they keep, like, all their jarred stuff in case they need to, you know, go down there for a reason. That's exactly right, Amanda. And I appreciate that because I didn't think about.
Amanda: Oh, thanks.
Julia: So, there is also a largely disproven theory that the Erdstalls are actually this kind of, like, vast interconnected network of subterranean tunnels that stretched from Scotland all the way down to Turkey.
Amanda: You wish. You wish, historians. I wish, but you also wish.
Julia: So, this theory became popularized after the Der Spiegel article came out in 2011 most likely because of, like, a misreading of the article. Like, I could see how people got confused because the article does talk about something that I'm gonna touch on a little bit later that kind of implies like, “Oh, yeah, you know, the tunnels lead all the way from Scotland and Ireland all the way down to Turkey.” I’m like, “Not quite, but I see where you're going with this.” The theory, though, now mostly disproven, is that there was this ancient underground superhighway where people could travel across the continent. And it's a cool idea from, like, a fantasy perspective. I could see that happening, but almost definitely impossible.
Amanda: Oh, yeah.
Julia: None of the Erdstalls that we found so far have been connected to others even though we have found thousands of them at this point. And, also, I'm not entirely sure how one would build an underground tunnel under the channel between England and mainland Europe with the technology that was available.
Amanda: Yeah, we didn't figure that out until very recently.
Julia: Yep. So, I don't think that's entirely true.
Amanda: Listen, it will be cool. Write a fantasy novel about it. I'd love to read it. Real Artemis Fowl vibes, I'm really digging that.
Julia: I feel like there was a kind of version of that in the Shadow and Bone series, The grishaverse, which I recommended a few weeks back and also has the TV show coming out soon.
Amanda: Yeah. And I had a number of, like, very weirdly, formative, like, adolescent literature books that I read. And one called The City of Ember also had, like, all underground. I know Julia is nodding vociferously because we share these books. But that gives me kind of The City of Ember vibes, don’t it?
Julia: Yes, I love that. And all I remember was, like, the characters being really excited because they found canned peaches.
Amanda: Yes, they did. They did.
Julia: So, there is one historian named, Heinrich Kusch, who believes that the systems were Neolithic. So, he believes that they were built about 5000 years ago and refers to them as “gateways to the Underwold.”
Amanda: Okay. Tell me more.
Julia: However, most fellow historians disagree with his assessments as radiocarbon dating and pollen analysis only dates them back, like I said before, to around the 10th to 13th centuries. Another theory believes that they might have been built during the fifth and sixth centuries, which was referred to as the migration period in Germany. So, this is like when tribes left their homes and kind of abandoned the cemeteries and, like, shrines of their ancestors. So, the theory is that the Erdstalls were built as a way of venerating the dead, which also explains why no human remains were actually found in any of the Erdstalls because they're, like, cemeteries but without the bodies.
Amanda: Interesting. Or, like, a place of worship that doesn't hold the remains. That actually would make a lot of sense to me.
Julia: Yeah, I agree. And there are a couple of interesting superstitious and folklore theories that kind of branch off of that. My only disagreement with that is, if they were burying their dead before and then migrated, why wouldn't they continue burying their dead? Like, I can understand, like, the Erdstalls being built for the veneration of the bodies that weren't brought with them. But why wouldn't they continue burying the bodies, like, within the Erdstalls?
Amanda: I see.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Or nearby or something like that.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: A lot of the use cases that we're describing, it feels like it'll make more sense to have just, like, a room. Like, to have one open space versus something that feels like it goes somewhere.
Julia: Yeah. Hmmm. That's a good point. This is a great time to kind of talk about those more superstitious and folklore-based theories. So, the Der Spiegel article kind of makes some odd connections to, like, Celtic Druids, which I don't think holds much water. But I'm going to, like, share them with you because I think that the theory is interesting even if I don't think it's particularly likely. And this is kind of what leads to that confusion of, like, the interconnected superhighway underground. So, they pointed out that the distribution of some of the Erdstalls, particularly, in Ireland and Scotland and then leading to Central France and then Germany kind of parallels the roots that Celtic and Druid monks traveled across the channel and then traveled across Europe as missionaries.
Amanda: Okay. But, also, that's probably where people were.
Julia: That is a good point. [Chuckles]
Amanda: [Laughs]
Julia: So, the theory here is that these tunnels are there for, like, some sort of remnants of the spread of Celtic conceptions of the afterlife. So, like, some sort of afterlife worship or, like, again, that pathway to the Underwold style thing that we talked about earlier. Other theories of the supernatural kind of include these ideas of Erdstalls were prisons for demons, or evil spirits, or even the undead. So, the only real support for that though is there are some remnants that we found of doors and locks in some of the Erdstalls.
Amanda: Oh, Julia, that's bone chilling.
Julia: Bone chilling. Gets little creepy, huh? You’re like, “Oh, yeah.” Yeah.
Amanda: Oh, oh, bud.
Julia: We excavated that and we found locks, but only on the side where you wouldn't be able to enter.
Amanda: Oh, no. I don't like that one bit. That's one of my least favorite tropes. It’s when you – when you have – like, opened the door and there's dirt behind it. I'm just like, “Waah.” It just – it scrambles my, my hindbrain.
Julia: Why is it there? Why is it there? That's also another horror movie that kind of reminds me of this trope. And, in particular, because you mentioned the Paris catacombs, there's a great horror movie called As Above, So Below, where there is a group that is exploring the catacombs in Paris and gets off trail and then, all of a sudden, is like in tormented by their – all the misdeeds that they did on Earth. So, that's fun.
Amanda: Yeah, I'm just – I'm just sitting with that for a second.
Julia: So, you still want to do that tour, right, Amanda?
Amanda: I do.
Julia: That’s good.
Amanda: That’s why I feel like I need you with me because your glee over horrifying things would really outweigh my horror. And, together, that's a lovely thing. Like, when someone calls you up to do karaoke, I'm like, “Fucking no.” And they're like, “This is my favorite thing.” And then, together, you both have a good time.
Julia: Yeah, as long as you're not doing it by yourself.
Amanda: Exactly.
Julia: Okay. That's good. I, I will appreciate that. I'm glad I can be your partner in creepiness.
Amanda: Absolutely.
Julia: One of the few indications that, like, these Erdstalls might have been connected to demons, or evil spirits, or the undead is that there is this one sandstone carving that they found in Germany inside an Erdstall that depicts a, like, goblin of some kind. And they're not sure what's up with that. They're just like, “We have no reason why there's this goblin carving here. That's cool, I guess.” But then a couple of other researchers kind of pointed out that there are ties to these local Austrian legends, which claim that the Erdstalls were built by goblins in the first place, which also would explain the size of the tunnels because they're too small for humans.
Amanda: Sure.
Julia: And, as we heard earlier, one of the, like, localized names for the Erdstalls was, like, goblin tunnel.
Amanda: Interesting.
Julia: Hmm. So, moving past the druids, Christianity, of course, might have played some role because it's Europe. Why not?
Amanda: Yeah. And no matter, if you want it to or not, Christianity played a role.
Julia: A lot of experts believe maybe the Erdstalls had either a sacred or ritual function rather than a practical one. Or the particular Erdstalls where they had – kind of they opened up into that chamber, that might have been used as a chamber of souls, which is a popular theory among the more, like, spiritual reasons behind the Erdstalls. Basically, they believe that these Erdstalls might have been waiting rooms for souls of the dead as they await Judgment Day.
Amanda: Okay. All right.
Julia: However, the problem with this is – perhaps, not the problem, but maybe the reason why the Erdstalls were abandoned was that, in the 12th century, the theology of purgatory kind of became solidified and part of the church. And, as a result, souls of people did not have to wait on earth for judgment any longer. And it kind of nullified the need for the Erdstalls, which is why these scholars believe so many of them were, like, either filled in or their entrances were covered up.
Amanda: That is very interesting.
Julia: Yeah. Again, we've talked about this earlier in another episode, but, like, the way that the change in technology and change in theology leads to changes in, like, the way that we use things. And I really like that. I really dig that.
Amanda: Oh, yeah, I know. The, like, physical instantiation of changes of belief is something that I find so interesting.
Julia: Yeah. So, there is also some theories – and I left this for last because I think they're, like, fun but not likely. Again, some theories about – in terms of, like, healing and religion and rebirth that the, the schlupfs, those slip outs, those small passages, might have been used for some sort of, like, ceremonial rebirth because of their similarity to birth canal, which I'm not in love with this theory. It's a little bit out, umm, there for me, personally. But I wanted to share as many theories as possible because, again, we don't know which one it is. So, I want to share them all.
Amanda: That's true.
Julia: So, the theory is that some historians believe that, by squeezing through these tight openings, people could, in fact, be healed of diseases and sickness, because this was, like, kind of a symbolic rebirth that they were experiencing.
Amanda: This whole episode, Julia, I have been thinking, it is really fucking hard to dig a tunnel. It is hard. It takes a long time. It's hard even now with power tools. It is hard with very sharp metal shovels that we know very well how to fix them to handles. And, using just hand tools, it will be even harder. Like, I spent a summer digging fence posts in my backyard just to put up a fence. That's the hardest manual labor I have ever done to this day. And it's not a thing that you undertake lightly. And, so, that is why it is so interesting to see examples – like, I'm sure, you know, before people listen to Egyptians about why the pyramids were made, it was so kind of alluring to think about why those happened because extraordinary effort needs an extraordinary motivation. And, so, when I listen to these theories, the fact that most of them have to do with kind of, like, you know, death, sickness, you know, danger, religion, all those things make sense because those are the sort of, like, literal moral fears that lead us to do extraordinary things.
Julia: Yeah, human motivation. Because, if it was just like, ‘Oh, we need to build the tunnel, because I want to build the tunnel,” that's one thing because, like, human innovation and ingenuity is one thing. But it wouldn't have led to 2,000 of these tunnels being built. It would have been, like, one guy's backyard that they found an 84-foot long tunnel and they're like, “What was Steve doing?”
Amanda: Yeah, this wasn't, like, bored Victorian noblemen being like, “Let's do alchemy now.” And then you have hundreds and hundreds of papers written about, like, nonsensical ideas because people were bored and rich.
Julia: Yes, precisely. This is not that because, again, it was spread all through Europe. It's wild. To close out on this birth passage theory, fun fact, there is one place where they will actually allow you to try and squeeze through a schlupf. That is the one in Perg that I mentioned in Austria. And that is one of the few are Erdstall systems that are open to the public to explore. So, if you're feeling sickly, I don't recommend going into an Erdstall because the oxygen levels are extremely low in there.
Amanda: Yeah Yeah.
Julia: I was reading an article about – I can't remember if it was the Perg one or the other one that was in Lower Austria. But the tour guide for the Erdstall, he like, always carries a sling because, if someone passes out in the tunnel from lack of oxygen, he has to be able to pull them out. And I'm just like, “That's wild.”
Amanda: Yeah, that is an intense job. Like, I'm from a family of lifeguards. That's an intense job, not as intense as Erdstall tour guides.
Julia: Yes. Imagine it's a pretty busy job and with a lot of manual labor.
Amanda: Listen, I would look at them. I wouldn't go in.
Julia: I’d probably go in. Not gonna lie.
Amanda: You're also significantly smaller than me. And, so, I think part of it is me looking at it and being like, “I have trouble sometimes with airplane seats. And I feel like I really don't want to get myself into that situation in particular.”
Julia: I would go into the Erdstall. I don't think you'd catch me trying to squeeze through the schlupf.
Amanda: Sure. When the going gets tough, you're like, “That's enough.”
Julia: I am a little bit claustrophobic. So, the idea of being, like, wedged into a tunnel terrifies me.
Amanda: Yeah, I mean there's also the hindbrain of knowing you're being potentially buried underground that nobody wants to do.
Julia: Not great. Don't love that.
Amanda: I mean maybe some people do. I don't.
Julia: So, if you are interested in learning more about Erdstalls, listeners or Amanda, definitely check out the work of the Working Group of Erdstall Research, which is a collection of researchers that have been examining the Erdstalls and looking for answers. While the majority of them are, like, archeologists or people with degrees in one form of another, it's interesting because there really hasn't been much formal research on Erdstalls. I think in the Der Spiegel article in 2011, they said that there hadn't been any, like, formalized articles or research projects released about the Erdstalls yet, which I think is fascinating. Like, there's no one out there funding research on Erdstalls. And most of the, like, carbon dating or the pollen analysis that they are doing in order to try to date these are Erdstalls is scientists doing it out of pocket.
Amanda: Right.
Julia: So, like, power to them. Support them if you can because this is really interesting. And I want answers.
Amanda: That's awesome.
Julia: Also, if you're associated with the Working Group of Erdstall Research, we would love to hear from you. Send us an email. We would love to chat. That would be really cool.
Amanda: think I've said it before, but, anybody with a cool niche job, I would love to hear from you. Message us on Instagram. Send us an email. I want to know more about you.
Julia: Yes, we love cool, interesting jobs. And I feel like a lot of listeners here on Spirits probably have cool and interesting jobs. We know we have a lot of, like, cool, queer librarians. Let's get more interesting jobs in there. Librarian is a very interesting job, but—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —other jobs, also, cool.
Amanda: We got museum educators. We got archivists. We got research scientists. We got parents. We got all kinds of people with bad ass jobs. And I would love to hear from you.
Julia: Absolutely. So, Amanda, that's what I have for you on Erdstalls. Which theory, I'm curious, speaks to you the most?
Amanda: Clarifying question, do these connect to homes? Do they have staircases? How do people get into them?
Julia: They're kind of just, like, cave entrances. I'll grab you a picture real quick.
Amanda: Visually, you're totally right. It's, it’s more like caves. And, so, I think I was picturing more of a – you know, a tunnel like in someone's basement. But the fact that these are sort of free standing makes me think less about a hiding place or a sort of, like extended dwelling. Because why would you – like, why wouldn't you just dig it close to you if that was – you know, if you were trying to connect it to your house or something? And more, like, either devotional, or grieving, or mourning, or worship place. I mean I think most people worship with something, whether it's a prayer rug, a statue, you know, things that you carry with you. You make the space special in some way. And, so, that is something that's really kind of tugging at my brain that, even if it was a textile, we would find some evidence of it. But thinking about what would motivate people to dig out these elaborate spaces with hand tools, you know, either it's the storage of something valuable, which, you know, we'd see the things or they wouldn't be in places where they flood. Or it's a space that you can be connected to something otherworldly. So, I think, in my – in my heart of hearts, that's what I hope that they were.
Julia: Yeah, I, I'm also kind of motivated by the supernatural or religious reasoning behind it, mostly because, like, I think that, one, that spelunker was dead on. Like, these are dangerous places that you wouldn't, like, spend extended periods of time in.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: And, two, just by the nature of our show, I am motivated to kind of go towards the more supernatural and religious explanation. But I do think that, like, one of the greatest motivators for humans out there is the idea of the worship of something bigger than us. So, I can only imagine, like, why someone would be motivated to put so much effort and work into this. And it would be to, like, preserve a legacy or to preserve the souls of the people that we love who passed on. I am curious, though – like, the biggest thing for me, the biggest sticking point for me with the Erdstall is that there's just no written record of it. And there's not even, like, a oral tradition that we can figure out the reason behind. And I think that's why it boggles my mind a little bit because, if it was religious, if it was spiritual, people would talk about it. People would write that down even if it was something like, you know, some Christian missionary being like, “Oh, yes, the heathens of this area dig tunnels for their dead.” Like—
Amanda: Right.
Julia: —no one ever did that. No one ever mentioned that. So, I’m, I'm just curious as to, like, why it was such a big secret to history.
Amanda: Yeah. And, even if it was kept a secret for a good reason or people needed it for some, you know, escape from persecution, or, you know, safeguarding of important people or documents, I think those people would then retain that knowledge as well. So, that is really puzzling. And, particularly, any listeners in Austria, Bavaria, or any towns or areas with Erdstalls in them, I would love to hear what you and your friends and your grandparents think these were for. I'm not, you know, thinking and claiming that anyone knows exactly why they were made. And, and you just haven't told the world. If so, I mean, please, please, tell them. But I know that people come up with explanations for the weird shit in their backyards. And, so, I would love to know if you have any firsthand experience what you and your neighbors think exactly happened.
Julia: Yeah, that would be really cool. Please send us any info that you have on the Erdstalls, especially if it is some firsthand knowledge.
Amanda: You know, we're just several thousand people connecting to solve a mystery that the internet really enjoys. Weirder things have happened, Julia. Maybe this is our legacy. Maybe we solve the Erdstall.
Julia: That would be really cool.
Amanda: I think so too. Well, thank you, Brandon for the article. Thank you, Julia, for bringing me so much fascinating stuff to ponder today.
Julia: Yeah. And next time you're wandering through a mysterious manmade cave, remember, stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool. And watch your heads.
Outro Music
Amanda: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
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Julia: Thank you so much for listening. Till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil