Episode 33: Egyptian Afterlife
/The road to the afterlife is dangerous, but good thing we’re all going together! We take you down the path past animal-headed gods, competent women who run the universe, and a god who just wants to eat your heart. But when we finally arrive in paradise, it will be full of good goofs, bad puns, video game references, and our favorite musical finales.
Our recommendations this week: Nancy by WNYC (podcast) and MST3K (Netflix). See the 42 Principles of Mat here, the Girl Scout motto here, and Amanda’s newest tattoo here.
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, & Goodreads, and review us on iTunes/Apple Podcasts to help new listeners find the show. You can support us on Patreon to unlock bonus audio content, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. To read up on us, listen to us on other podcasts, or send us a note, just head on over to SpiritsPodcast.com.
Our music is "Danger Storm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
AM: Welcome to Spirits Podcast Episode 33: The Egyptian Afterlife.
JS: Which is kind of creepy. I mean good place to start as always.
AM: I feel like this would have been a lot of folks' first episode and, even though we started with the ancient Greeks, which is another, you know, element of super classical mythology, I'm glad that we've, we've really toured the world --
JS: Right.
AM: -- before coming back onto ancient Egypt.
JS: Yeah. I, I feel like it's something that I'm surprised it took us so long to get here, but I'm glad we're finally here.
AM: Listen, y'all, there's only so many weeks in a year. You know, it's amazing how few bi-weekly episodes you can fit into a whole year
JS: But soon, soon, Amanda, I want to not go bi-weekly. You know why?
AM: Oh, you're rubbing your hands really excitedly. And I was like, "What does this mean?" But, yeah, y'all, we are – we're not too far away from --
JS: We're so close.
AM: -- the next Patreon goal, which is to a joke --
JS: Which is, fortunately, nice.
AM: Which is just a joke. But then, thereafter, we do have a Patreon goal, where we will be able to up this production to a weekly schedule. We want it. You want it. If you haven't supported us on patreon.com/spiritspodcast, please do.
JS: Also, if you haven't left us review and rating on iTunes, that would really help.
AM: It's like a non-money tip.
JS: Yes.
AM: It really is.
JS: Yes.
AM: Because that, through algorithmic magic, helps new people find the show. And that helps us, you know, have advertisers and engage more be it on social media. And like it's just – it's all – it's all good.
JS: God bless that digital magic.
AM: We would love to thank the newest people to join us over on our Patreon: Ellie, Christopher, Angela, Ahsante, Quim, Jennifer, Siobhan, Lauren, EeyoreDragin, which is dope, and Cathleen. Thank you so much for joining us. And to our cohort of supporting producer-level patrons: LeeAnn Davis, Shannon Alford, Phil Fresh, Catherine Addington, Kristina Rogers, Griffin Mekelburg, and McF. We've also revamped the $10 tier of our Patreon. So, that now includes a monthly live stream. So, $10 and $15 level patrons will be invited to join us every month for Q&A drinks. Maybe some karaoke. Come on over to patreon.com/spiritspodcast to become a patron or to upgrade your tier if you're a $1, $3, or $5 patron. Anyway, we love you. And, recommendation corner, I want to start this week, Jules. I have a podcast that I haven't told you about actually. I saved it for right now.
JS: Okay.
AM: It's Nancy by WNYC.
JS: Okay. Tell me about it.
AM: Our local – our local public radio station. It is a queer podcast. A podcast about queer life --
JS: Cool.
AM: -- about qeer histories, about queer stories.
JS: Great.
AM: And, as the, the queer half of this podcast, I am super into queer people giving audio, talking about their lives, talking about – one woman was talking about how she has to like come out to her mom every single time she talks to the mom. And it, it was just like such – I don't know. It's like it's not tragic. And it's not – it's not like they're just for laughs. Like it really is a deep and nuanced and a really good show about being queer right now.
JS: Dope. I am going to recommend this week the new Netflix season of Mystery Science Theater 3000. I'm a huge fan of the original series. I have not sat down yet to watch the new season.
AM: This is the pre-recommendation.
JS: Yeah. This is the pre-recommendation. I'm probably going to like live tweet it or something --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- on Saturday. So, if you want to join me – I don't know when I'm going to start that, but just check out the Twitter, or check out my Instagram, or check out the Spirits Instagram. Who knows?
AM: That's true. We are on Instagram @SpiritsPodcast and also on Soundcloud if that is a place that you consume your podcasts.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Oh. And, finally, thank you all so much for sending us your personal creepy, cool stories and urban legends. It's been so much fun to just go through our inbox and read all of these incredibly creepy tales. We have nearly enough for a listener story special.
JS: Yes. If you haven't done it already, please send us your stories. And it's even better if you guys tell it like your own take on it. A lot of people have sent us links, and that's super cool. And we'd love to read all the cool stories about your lives. But, if you tell it, it makes the storytelling experience a lot more fun and exciting.
AM: Yeah. Like we're gonna bring your words to life in our voices.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, like, A, you can request who reads it if that's a thing that you have a preference about and, B, you know, let us know at spiritspodcast.com. There's a contact form or you can email us directly at spiritspodcast@gmail.com.
JS: So, Amanda, what are you drinking tonight?
AM: I am – I know you don't do brown liquors.
JS: I do not.
AM: But I am drinking a very peaty scotch. You told me to get a marshy drink for tonight.
JS: You're gonna need it.
AM: And that was about all I could find. I'm normally a whiskey girl, but tonight I'm drinking scotch.
JS: Sweet.
AM: And, and it is – it's really good.
JS: All right. Good.
AM: So, without further ado, y'all, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 33: The Egyptian Afterlife.
Intro Music
JS: So, Amanda, a lot of the news cycle that we see on a daily basis has a lot to do with the courts and justice. And I kind of wanted to look at our story this week in the lens of justice. And sort of, as I'm telling you this tale, consider what makes someone goodhearted, what makes someone worth having justice.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Whether or not that's good justice or bad justice.
AM: I really love that. You know, I love me a morally ambiguous protagonist of the story.
JS: Yeah. I'm glad
AM: And I really love stuff where it's sort of like chaotic good. Like going for what they think is right despite the law. Like I'm very big into the idea that like, you know, you should chart your own – your own like path toward justice to the world and, you know, kind of bend rules as you – as you need to. So, I'm excited to see what this is all about.
JS: Okay. Well, we are talking about this week, the Egyptian Afterlife.
AM: Yes.
JS: I know it. We finally got there.
AM: I love it.
JS: It took us over a year, but we finally got to Egypt.
AM: Did you know that I took a like Saturday class on Egyptian mythology when I was in like fourth grade?
JS: No. That's an [Inaudible5:32].
AM: I went to like a weekend class.
JS: Who's gonna say?
AM: No one is surprised, but whatsoever. Because I couldn't get enough of the one during the week. And, and we did one on on the Egyptian Afterlife. All I remember is Anubis --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- who's the dog-headed one.
JS: Yeah. We're actually not going to talk about him as much in this.
AM: That's fine.
JS: We'll talk about him a little bit though.
AM: And I think there's one that's owl-shaped.
JS: Okay.
AM: That's about it.
JS: Solid. Solid choice.
AM: I’m excited.
JS: All right. So, one of the first things we need to understand about Egyptian mythology is that the conception of the Egyptian universe is centered around Ma’at.
AM: Which is what?
JS: Ma’at is both a goddess and a concept.
AM: Okay.
JS: And she encompasses truth, justice, and order.
AM: Interesting.
JS: To the Egyptians, the universe is fixed. And there is a certain eternal order of the universe and, therefore, to human society.
AM: Okay. Cool. So, like – so, Ma’at is the sort of like center around which everything else orbits.
JS: Yes.
AM: Or, is she more like the anchor holding the thing in place?
JS: She is the scales keeping everything balanced.
AM: Interesting. And, so, she acts on them and she is them --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- type situation.
JS: So, Ma’at is constantly under the threat of the forces of chaos and disorder.
AM: Sure. If she's a scale, she's like freaking balanced precipitously in the middle I assume.
JS: Right, exactly. So, those are the forces of evil, basically, in the concept of Egyptian mythology.
AM: It's imbalanced.
JS: Yes. It’s imbalance. It’s chaos. It’s disorder. When you're thinking about what the Egyptians wanted to do in order to help the goddess and, by extension, all of the gods --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- it's to help maintain the order of society and the order of the universe.
AM: Man, I know we've just started, but I'm already – like my brain is zooming outward to think about why our human animal praises order so much, you know.
JS: Yes. We love order. It's so weird.
AM: And, so often, when we talk about these myths, I find myself picturing like a tribe of a couple dozen people like, you know, in a sort of settlement around a campfire. And like everything outside your vision is chance, randomness, disorder, you know, like the forces of life and death, and like carnal stuff --
JS: Chaos theory.
AM: -- and everything. Exactly. Yeah. And everything within, within the the lit – warmly lit fire circle, you know, is like balance, order, hierarchy, you know, listening, fidelity. And like those are the things that actually help us survive. I also just saw the Fast and Furious movie, and there's a – there's a line in it where Charlize Theron is like, "Have you heard about choice theory?" And I just --
JS: Yes?
AM: -- cracked up, because like, "Of course I've done a like choice theory critical lens reading --
JS: Of course, you have.
AM: -- in my literature major.
JS: No one is surprised by this.
AM: And I was only personal in there laughing.
JS: That's like, fucking – I went to go see Beauty and the Beast with Jake --
AM: Great.
JS: -- and his mom.
AM: Great.
JS: And we were sitting there, and it's the end of the film. And Gaston is confronting the beast at the end. And he has this torch. And he just kind of mic drops it onto off of the ledge. And I start cracking up and Jake is like, "What is wrong with you?" I was like, "He mic dropped it." It's funny. Wait a minute. It was great.
AM: Was it framed as a mic drop?
JS: No. It just kind of happened.
AM: Or is it like you got it that way? Yeah.
JS: I don't know. It could have been framed. It wasn't like he was talking. He's about to start a monologue, but he mic dropped it right before he did. It was great.
AM: I would have laughed if I were there with you.
JS: Thank you. I appreciate that.
AM: Instead, I was listening to Charlize Theron woman explaining choice theory to me.
JS: Okay. So, how do human beings help the gods maintain order? Basically, they understand because they, as individuals, are part of the universe and have to create order. That by – through cooperation and coexistence, they can help the gods maintain the order of the universe.
AM: So, is the natural state of the universe ordered or disordered? Like are human beings here to like combat the forces of disorder? Like Satan, you know, being here to like draw us away from good? Or, are we here to clean up the mistakes that we make?
JS: No human beings are born into order, and society, and structure.
AM: Got it.
JS: And, in order to keep the universe balanced, they have to maintain that position in society.
AM: Got it.
JS: Make sense, right?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Egyptian mortals could help maintain Ma’at through their worship of the gods. And they're able to sustain them through offerings and performing rituals that will help stave off disorder and continue the natural cycles of life. So, the sentient beings of the universe – this gets important for the afterlife part – are divided into three categories.
AM: Okay.
JS: Gods, living mortals, and the undead.
AM: Oooh.
JS: Or, not the undead, but deceased humans.
AM: I see. A class of their own.
JS: Right. So, as that kind of suggests, the Egyptian belief in the afterlife and death are very elaborate because you're creating this whole other class of sentient being.
AM: Yeah. Like they're not just done.
JS: Yes.
AM: You know, like they're still in the picture.
JS: It doesn't just end. So, key points, human beings possess a ka, which is a life force and that leaves the body when a human being dies.
AM: What is the form? Is it like a – just ball of energy? Like what is it?
JS: It, it's just a like, like force.
AM: Okay.
JS: It's not really defined. The ka in life was fed by food and water. So, in an afterlife, it has to be sustained through the same substances, which is why the Egyptians leave offerings of food, and water, and wine when they're dead – died.
AM: Interesting.
JS: There's also something called the ba. And this is the spiritual characteristics of a person. It's what makes them unique. It's their personality. It's that kind of thing.
AM: I see. So, the sort of soul, you know, equivalent --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- if I were to put it in things I know.
JS: Right. But, unlike the soul, the ba remains attached to the body after death.
AM: Huh!
JS: And this --
AM: Which is why the body is like well preserved and taken care of.
JS: This is where mummification comes into the process.
AM: Wow. That's so interesting.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That the like – the like physical life-sustaining ka gets to go float away like so many does.
JS: Well, it doesn't really.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Well, we'll get to that eventually.
AM: But, but just – I guess – rather the fact that the, the like characteristics – the thing that I would think of as the soul that floats away from a body when it's dead – you know, I like cartoons – is the thing that's actually anchored in the body.
JS: Yes. Okay. So, mummification process and funeral rituals were designed to help separate the ba from the body so that it can join the ka.
AM: Whoa.
JS: But it's also designed so that the ba can continue to sustain itself as the human body because the ba has to stay alive in order for the ba and ka to --
AM: Meet.
JS: -- meet.
AM: So, that's why they like take the brain out through the nose --
JS: Right.
AM: -- and like the heart and things.
JS: Yes. So, the preservation of the body was to ensure that the ba could return to the body to receive new life. Basically, the ba would have to continue to stay near the body in order to like stay maintained.
AM: So, the body is like a – like a battery that still gives it stuff.
JS: Yes. So, the ka is being sustained by the food and water. The ba is being sustained by visiting the body because the body has energy. So, when the ba and the ka come together, they become an akh. The akh is associated with thought and is usually seen in portrayals as a ghost or like a living dead person kind of a zombie-esque figure.
AM: Okay.
JS: The akh could potentially do harm or good to living people. So, they could cause nightmares or invoke feelings of guilt or sickness or even answer prayers for the living people or family members that are left behind.
AM: So, they're sort of like ancillary or like walking among this world.
JS: Yes.
AM: Are they like recognizable? Like, like – does like grandma come as an akh and talk to you?
JS: Right, they can. Yeah.
AM: Cool.
JS: So, it's really interesting, too, because this sort of pushes the idea that family members have to respect the dead --
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: -- and keep leaving offerings. Otherwise, akh is going to come back and make their lives miserable --
AM: Cool.
JS: -- which is really, really interesting. So, the unification of the ka and the ba into the akh is brought about by proper offerings, but there's also this risk which I find super cool that the akh can die a second death.
AM: Whoa. Why?
JS: And we're going to talk about that a little bit more too.
AM: Neglect?
JS: Neglect is part of it. But, also, there is a like finality like when we get to a certain part of the afterlife where the akh can die again.
AM: My eyes widened. I love finale.
JS: I know. I know. I know.
AM: Quick, favorite musical finale, go.
JS: Oh, shit, shit. In the Heights made me cry real bad.
AM: Oh, yeah. Man, I'm a streetlight chokin' on the heat.
JS: Yeah.
AM: No. I know. Mine is probably the end of Into the Woods only because the like – the like musical refrains coming back through a mirror darkly is like fuck.
JS: Yeah. It is really dark. That's a good one. Good choice.
AM: Thanks.
JS: Okay. So, side note, originally, the only person who had a ba was the pharaoh. And that was because he was the only one in original stories who could join the gods in the afterlife, while people who weren't royal were kind of sent to this bleak, dark realm, which is considered the opposite of life. So, there was no paradise. There was no like idyllic situation, where you joined the gods for commoners. Only the pharaoh could do that, because he's a descendant of the gods.
AM: And there's also no like moral disambiguation.
JS: Right.
AM: Like every – every soul that wasn't the pharaoh went to the same place.
JS: Yes, exactly. Later on, that concept kind of expands. The ba expands to everyone, not just royalty.
AM: And was that just like a kind of evolution through time? Or, was there a moment where like a pharaoh sacrificed himself, you know, and like --
JS: Nope. Evolution through time. They're like, "Oh, yeah, that's kind of unfair to everyone." And they just kind of spread the love. So, what happens after a person dies? How do we get to an afterlife? So, these are questions, Amanda, that are answered by Coffin Text.
AM: Whoa! You could not have said a cooler sentence to me.
JS: I know. That was pretty dope, wasn't it? Okay.
AM: I love death. I love texts. Let's go.
JS: So, Coffin Texts are basically inscribed inside tombs and inside coffins and sarcophagus. Sarcophagus? Sarcophaguses?
AM: Yes
JS: The Coffin Text is used to describe to the dead how they will reach the afterlife ruled by the god Osiris. And the afterlife area is a place called Duat.
AM: Okay.
JS: Just kind of a side note, this is – when you're talking about the coffin text --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- there's not just one text. There's multiple different kinds of text.
AM: Is this the Book of the Dead?
JS: The coffin text is a precursor to what would become the Book of the Dead.
AM: Okay.
JS: It started as the pyramid text, which was when it was just for the pharaohs.
AM: Inscribed in the pyramid.
JS: And then it goes to coffin text. And then the Book of the Dead was something that came about later on in the Middle Kingdom I think. I don't know a lot about Egyptian mythology.
AM: I got literally nothing.
JS: Okay. Cool. Coffin text was basically – each one was a little bit different. And it basically contained different spells that would protect you later on, but we'll get to that later.
AM: Can I ask a question --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- about the like who did it?
JS: Sure.
AM: And was it like the, the – what was the death person called?
JS: Osiris?
AM: In real life?
JS: Oh, the grim reaper?
AM: Mortician?
JS: Oh, mortician. Okay. Sure.
AM: And, so, was it like every mortician had their own variation? Did the family choose them? Was there a religious element? Like how did this get chosen which coffin text will go in your coffin?
JS: I actually don't super know. I assume it was the family who was the one picking it. Because --
AM: Right.
JS: You would assume that there's not as many morticians, but there's like 200 different copies of the coffin text.
AM: Huh! And, so, it's just kind of like whatever your variation is?
JS: Right, basically. And it kind of becomes important later because you don't know what you're going to face when you're down in the underworld. So --
AM: That's true. For the record. I would like Leaves of Grass to be my coffin text.
JS: Okay. You got it. That's not going to help you at all, but you got it.
AM: Thank you.
JS: Kind of a background thing, I mentioned to Osiris before.
AM: You did.
JS: So, Osiris is the god of death and afterlife, but he's also seen as the god of transitions, resurrection, and regeneration.
AM: You know I love it --
JS: I know.
AM: -- when death and life join in a circle.
JS: So, he's obviously important to the afterlife, but he also acts as one of the merciful judges of the afterlife. He's known as the Lord of Silence, and he who is permanently benign and youthful.
AM: Aha. Except for the youthful part, that reminds me of the Supreme Court --
JS: Yes.
AM: -- returning to your earlier framing about judgment and righteousness and balance.
JS: There you go.
AM: Because, you know, silent like meant to be kind of neutral.
JS: Yeah.
AM: You know, always like sent down to [Inaudible 17:35]--
JS: Like that one dude who hasn't spoken.
AM: Clarence Thomas?
JS: Yeah.
AM: Oh, no, he spoke. Don't worry.
JS: Okay. But like, for 30 years --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- he said nothing or something ridiculous like that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, Osiris is extremely important to the afterlife story. And we're going to quickly tell you why he's associated with death and afterlife. Hint; it is a very good story. So, Osiris started as a king of Egypt, who was murdered by his brothers, Set. The reason --
AM: Classic. Brother murder.
JS: Well, the reason why it’s different depending on some stories. Some say Osiris slept with Set's wife. It's another Greek thing where it's their Sister Wives kind of thing.
AM: Okay.
JS: In another story, it's like Osiris kicked Set. And Set was like, "This is uncalled for," and then murdered him.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: So, Set kills Osiris and takes the throne. Early story say, either Set turned into a wild animal and ripped him apart or he drowned Osiris in the Nile. But an important key story that becomes more prominent later on is that Set killed him and then cut him up into 42 different pieces. And then spread each of the pieces across Egypt.
AM: That sounds super specific and serial killery and horcruxy.
JS: Yes, a little bit.
AM: But like, listen, if you want to super get rid of a body, cut up into many pieces and put them in different like garbage disposal areas. I think about this a lot when I'm watching like CSI or something when --
JS: Sure, when you're watching CSI.
AM: Or, when someone steps on my toes in the subway.
JS: Yes.
AM: Watch out for it. Yeah. But, no, like having the bodies in different places makes it harder to put them apart. I don't know. I don't know.
JS: Exactly. Osiris' wife/sister, Isis, she goes out and she turns into – in some stories, either a hawk or a kite, which is a kind of bird. She's able to find all of the pieces. And she brings the pieces back to Thoth and Anuis, who are two different gods who become important to the story of the afterlife later on.
AM: Reminds me of the owl husbands and the raven husband in a – in our Koschei the Deathless episode. today's
JS: Yes. That was so good. I love me a good owl husband.
AM: I know.
JS: Okay.
AM: I just want to go on owl husband's castle, Grim Reaper sex dungeon thing?
JS: Yes, that is what I want. You got me. Got me in one. So, Thoth and Anubis use magic and funeral rights, and Osiris becomes the first mummy.
AM: Ooh.
JS: However, his revival is not complete. And he becomes the leader of Duat, which is the mysterious afterlife.
AM: Shit. I love this.
JS: In paintings and portrayals and carvings, he's usually portrayed as still partially wrapped in bandages like his legs to his hip I guess and has green/black skin to represent that he was dead and then revived.
AM: Man, this is the original zombie.
JS: Yeah. He's legit the original zombie. And then he became the god of death.
AM: Why do you think there's always been zombie lore in humanity? Like it seems like such a thing we invented.
JS: We're super obsessed with the idea of being able to bring bodies back to life.
AM: That seems supernatural to me or rather not, not supernatural.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It seems quite natural to me that we --
JS: No, but super Supernatural.
AM: I have never watched the show, but I know enough about it to be like Sam, Dean, puppy. There's an angel. He's hot, et cetera. Who knows? But like, where, where do we get this like green-skinned – like zombies who walk kind of imperfectly? I don't know. It just – it seems like – I don't know.
JS: I want more zombie stuff. We're going to do a zombie episode at some point.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Your eyes is wide in there, and I'm so into it. Okay. So, let's talk about Duat because that's where Osiris hangs --
AM: Osiris' afterlife place.
JS: -- [Inaudible 21:02]. So, Duat is not really a peaceful place. There are a lot of traps and challenges that one as a deceased person has to go through in order to get to their judgment.
AM: And what does that prove, you know?
JS: Just know that you follow the rules right and then you can get to the people who are going to judge you.
AM: Like the idea of earning your judgment, it doesn't seem intuitive that, that you have to like, like, go out of your way to get judged.
JS: I mean I think it kind of does, because the way that the Egyptians see their afterlife and their life is that it's a challenging thing, but there's a reward at the end. If you're a good person, you get rewarded.
AM: Interesting.
JS: Which I feel like, you know, in some aspects of Christianity, we have that same issue.
AM: Well, it's – this seems less like right conduct and more like you followed the rules.
JS: Right.
AM: Like these tests in elementary school, where it was like read all the instructions. And then the last instruction’s not to do anything.
JS: That's almost exactly what this is.
AM: Well, let's hear about it.
JS: Okay. So, the dead risk again dying a second time if they're not properly protected by funeral magic and if they don't follow the rules that are laid out for them in the coffin text.
AM: So, I like too that there is burden both on the, you know, family left behind and on the, the deceased themselves to like each do their part of this puzzle.
JS: Right. And this is going back to the idea of Ma'at and keeping together the order of society.
AM: Sure.
JS: Your loved ones, if you're – if they're left behind and you're dead, they have an obligation to you to help you get into the afterlife.
AM: And,in terms of grieving, that makes a lot of sense, too.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It's like knowing – it's like thinking that you can be doing something constructive and have prepared and like are helping, you know, a person that might otherwise feel like beyond your, your help.
JS: Hell yeah. So, if you get through the challenges and the traps and don't die that second death, which is the ideal situation --
AM: Nice.
JS: -- you would find yourself in the Hall of Final Judgment, where there are gods and judges who will decide your fate for the afterlife. So, first things first, there is the standing before 42 divine judges. Forty two because that was the pieces of Osiris and how many of them they had to find. The dead person would stand before the judges and plead innocence for any wrongdoing they've done in their lives.
AM: Plea that they were innocent or plead like forgiveness?
JS: Innocence.
AM: Huh!
JS: Which is interesting, and we'll talk about that a little bit. To help the dead out], the funerary texts such as the coffin text, they tell the dead the best way of addressing each of the gods in order to win their favor.
AM: Really?
JS: So, it's not even just like, "I'm innocent and here's why." It is, "Oh, dear God, please understand that I have done this and it is good that I did that," that kind of thing.
AM: Do you know what it's like, Julia?
JS: What?
AM: It's like cover letters.
JS: Yes, it is literally the cover letter – 42 cover letters to get you into the afterlife.
AM: I saw your – I saw your eyes about to judge my metaphor. And then you were like, "Nope. Nope. That was a good one."
JS: No. We’re not getting into it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: They were too.
AM: Listen, y'all shouldn't be giving the same cover letter to anything. Every single one has to be different. Address the person, change the fricking address, change your fricking business name, and be like, "Hey, listen, me, I am the answer. This is why I specifically apply for your specific job."
JS: Okay. So, let me give you an example of these cover letters I got them through.
AM: Please do.
JS: Here's the first two. "O Far-strider who came forth from Heliopolis, I have done no falsehood." And then you turn to the second one and you go, “O Fire-embracer who came forth from Kheraha, I have not robbed.”
AM: Ooh.
JS: And then just continue on. That's 42 statements that you have to make to these gods/judges.
AM: Do you like learn to memorize this during your life?
JS: No, these are things that you don't see until you get the funerary text.
AM: Ooh.
JS: And, so, I kind of want to stress this because I make it seem like you die, and then you just go do these things.
AM: Right.
JS: You have to return to your body every single night. So, it's kind of like a video game, but you don't have safe points in the middle of the way. You just have to – if you – like if the sun rises, you have to return back to your body and just kind of keep the way --
AM: And it's not a safe point. You have to start over from one.
JS: Yes. Start back from where your body was and then just keep going.
AM: Wow.
JS: But, the more you do it, the easier the run gets. You know what I mean? You know all the tricks and the shortcuts and all that. And that is how to beat boss.
AM: Quite, quite gamified. It's almost like human brains --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- are wired to find certain things challenging.
JS: That's so weird. Okay. So, if you pass the judgment of the 42 judges/gods, then comes the weighing of the heart. And I feel like this image that a lot of people know.
AM: This one I've heard about. Yes. Is it the heart and a feather?
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, let me just run through it really quick. So, the literal heart of the person is taken. And it said that the heart has all of the recorded actions and thoughts of the person whose heart it is.
AM: Yes. It's the computer memory of the brain.
JS: Yes, pretty much. So, bad deeds make the heart heavier, obviously. But just kind of we get phrases from that all the time. It makes total sense.
AM: Gotta have a heart.
JS: While the good deeds, keep it light. So, the --
AM: Lighthearted.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, the heart is weighed against the feather of Ma'at, who is usually shown having wings but feathers are the arms.
AM: Ooh. Ooh.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I didn't get that it was like the god itself.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Her feather.
JS: Yeah.
AM: His feather or it's feather.
JS: It's, it's Ma'at, the goddess' feather.
AM: Geez.
JS: Yeah. The feather represents truth, justice, and balance because that's what Ma'at represents.
AM: Ma'at. Ma'at.
JS: And, if the heart weighs less or equal to the feather, the person is truly virtuous and is rewarded in the afterlife.
AM: And is that like a sort of gods are people too situation, where like her feather has some sin in it, you know, to like borrow Christian --
JS: Yeah. I would imagine.
AM: -- vocabulary.
JS: Well, she's the perfect balance.
AM: Oh, yes.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Okay. So, she likes sets and is the scale.
JS: Right.
AM: She is the fulcrum.
JS: Exactly
AM: Cool.
JS: So, if the heart, however, is heavier than the feather, the heart is fed to Ammut, who is a crocodile/hippo goddess and who is also known as The Devourer.
AM: The original anxiety gator.
JS: Yes, basically that. When the heart is eaten, the soul is then cast into perpetual darkness. And it has to remain in Duat.
AM: Shit.
JS: Yeah. It's kind of --
AM: Any escape or that's it?
JS: Nope, that's it.
AM: Okay.
JS: That's the end. That's the end. That's the second death that I was talking about.
AM: Wah - wah.
JS: Wah - wah. That's game over since we keep making videos [Inaudible 27:12] in this episode.
AM: Yeah. Thank you for putting words over that scoring line.
JS: I got you. So, the scale is attended to by Anubis, who we talked a little bit about. And because --
AM: Talk to the guy.
JS: -- because he is the God of mummification and the funeral process and stuff like that.
AM: Cool.
JS: He's the jackal-headed god. He's also associated with embalming, which is important because he had to keep that body, maintaining, keep that fresh.
AM: Fresh tomb death.
JS: Living. I just denied your hand.
AM: She refused – she refused my high five.
JS: I did. I'm sorry.
AM: Thirty episodes, Julia, and it's come to this.
JS: A pun too bad.
AM: Too bad.
JS: It was not great. I'm sorry. So, Anubis also acts as a guide for souls from the living world to the afterlife. So, Anubis, if you, you know, favor Anubis and give him offerings and stuff and if your family makes the right offerings to Anubis, he will help guide you through Duat to the judgment.
AM: Fast pass to judgment.
JS: Yeah. So, he's like a good dude to know. He's like Chiron, but a little bit more. I just imagined him for a second here. Chiron/one of those urban explorer like guides.
AM: Oh, no.
JS: Like let's go explore the abandoned subways.
AM: I thought you were going to say you pictured Anubis like barking up at Spot, our favorite – our favorite dog of the Underworld.
JS: Cerberus.
AM: Cerberus.
JS: Nah. Anubis is too cool for that.
AM: I know he'd be like, "Oh, god, my younger cousin." Come on.
JS: Oh, stop. Stop it. Thoth, who we also mentioned before. He's also said to observe the scales during the weighing of hearts. And he's known as the god of equilibrium. He's normally portrayed as either an ape or an Ibis, which is one of those long beaked birds
AM: An ape you said. Like a monkey?
JS: Yeah. Like a baboon.
AM: Those seem very different.
JS: Yeah. I don't know why. I'm not entirely sure about this one.
AM: That's [Inaudible 29:02].
JS: I don't know why.
AM: Think about --
JS: No, I didn't have to, but I'm gonna own up to it. I don't know why he's either a monkey or a bird.
AM: Whateves. My, my comment was going to be how does equilibrium differ from like the general sense of Ma'at's balance or is it just kind of like a subsidiary.
JS: I think it's a subsidiary in a lot of later portrayals. I'm thinking about American Gods right now.
AM: Sure.
JS: Thoth, if you remember the scene where we have Anubis and Thoth running the funeral parlor outside of Cairo.
AM: Oh, shit. That's them?
JS: Indiana?
AM: Yeah.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JS: Thoth was the person who's basically the scribe. He writes down all of the --
AM: The court stenographer of the dead.
JS: Yeah. He's the court stenographer of the dead. That's actually exactly what I wanted to say.
AM: Excellent.
JS: So, he's making sure that all the legit stuff is being weighed. And everything is measured properly.
AM: Cool.
JS: And all those stories are told. That's Thoth.
AM: Also, another interview tip, while we're doing Amanda's Egyptian underworld career corner --
JS: Go ahead.
AM: -- is, when you're in an interview, you should have two of you, that's you and a colleague interviewing the person like if you're hiring. And then you should have someone there just to take notes. Also, it doesn't matter – like you shouldn't have to worry about writing things down. It makes the candidate nervous. Like, who cares? You should have someone there whose purpose is to take notes. And then you and the person can have a conversation. You have to think about it. You're welcome.
JS: That makes sense.
AM: The more you know.
JS: Thank you, Amanda. Thank you for your interview corner. So, your heart weighs equal to or less than Ma'at's thing. Congratulations.
AM: You did it.
JS: You did good. So, you're in the clear, right? You get to go to paradise. It's amazing. It's really, really cool. Nope.
AM: I'm guessing it's not that easy.
JS: Nope, not that easy.
AM: Ooh.
JS: Paradise in the afterlife is called Aaru.
AM: Okay.
JS: And, so, you have to go through either 15 or 21 gates in order to get to Aaru after the Hall of judgment.
AM: All right. And what do they require?
JS: It's basically you're going through these gates, and they're guarded by demons that wield knives.
AM: All right.
JS: And you just kind of have to stand up to those people and know that you're a righteous person. And then you get to go through the gates.
AM: Classic knife demon.
JS: Yeah.
AM: And, so, what sustained you? Is it just like righteousness and trust? Or is it kind of like wiliness?
JS: Yeah. It's just the understanding that you deserve to go to Aaru.
AM: All right.
JS: This is your judgment. And the gods have judged. And you get to take your place with Osiris now.
AM: Wow. I'm thinking now of our most popular literary reference to date, Sabriel by Garth Nix.
JS: Peopale fucking love that you love Sabriel.
AM: Man, my friends, you are – you are mine. I am yours. We are of one people. Those of us who know that Sabriel, Lireal, Abhorsen, Clariel, et cetera, et cetera by Garth Nix is --
JS: Damn. All right.
AM: -- the best book series of all time. Just gonna say it. Anyway, in that book, it's about a necromancer. So, a woman who uses bells to like wade into the – into death. Julia, you have to --
JS: Read these books.
AM: You're gonna – you're gonna take this copy from me right now. Let me get it for you.
JS: Okay.
AM: And, so, you – basically, you use bells to like ring your way backward from life back into death.
JS: Okay.
AM: And death gets more intense as it gets deeper. It's like a series of seven riffs.
JS: Like inception.
AM: Yeah – ummm, not really, because it's one river that goes further and further back into death. And, as you advance through the various parts of it – it's almost like these gates – the current gets stronger. And the shit trying to bring you out of it gets deeper. And the monsters get scarier.
JS: Okay.
AM: And, so, all the time, when you are going into death, like the skill of the necromancer is, A, to have the bells to know how to get yourself into that – into those gates, but also not to fall victim to all the things on the riverbanks trying to – trying to, you know, pull your ankles and like move you away. And it's just the best ever. Please Spirits Book Club read Sabriel by Garth Nix.
JS: Okay. Good. I'll make sure we promote that. That should have been your promo at the beginning of this episode.
AM: If, by promote, you mean I'm going to put that in your purse when you leave, yes.
JS: I – okay. Okay. Once they reach Aaru, which is located basically on the horizon of the East where the sun rises, they --
AM: They're going toward the origin. I like it.
JS: -- they have reached Aaru. Aaru is described as boundless reed fields, much like the Nile Delta.
AM: Oh, man.
JS: Which is like really beautiful. And the souls are free to hunt and farm for eternity.
AM: I like that.
JS: Because that's what you want to do I guess when you --
AM: I mean people do dream of like retiring to farming.
JS: No. That's true. And, also, I think one of the sources I was talking about said that manual labor is much easier when you're in the afterlife.
AM: Cool. I sure hope so.
JS: So, it doesn't – it doesn't stress you out as much. It's not as difficult.
AM: I sure hope running is effortless in the afterlife.
JS: That would be ideal, right? In some stories, it's seen as a series of islands that are covered by fields of rushes and reeds, which is really, really pretty. And I just kind of love that concept. It makes me think of growing up on the bay and seeing all the, the cat tails and the wind moving.
AM: I was just gonna say that sounds exactly like what our version of heaven --
JS: Yeah.
AM: -- probably is. Growing up, again, among the reeds and like the marshy, you know, southern shore of Long Island.
JS: Yeah.
AM: That, to me, when I think about home and peacefulness, it's the kind of like palette of greens and blues and yellows and browns that, that make up sort of like brush and reeds and stuff.
JS: Yeah, it's kind of beautiful.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I kind of love that. I just want water and Martian piking for my afterlife.
AM: Boats. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. And boats. That would be ideal. So, in these fields of rushes, Osiris lives among them. And he lives in an area called the field of offerings.
AM: Wow.
JS: Which is kind of beautiful.
AM: Is it like a – like a Morrigan-style battlefield of corpses or is it --
JS: No. No. No. It's like really nice and gorgeous. And he's just hanging out.
AM: Just asking. I'm just asking. It does actually sound like an atmosphere that's perfect for birds.
JS: Right. Yes.
AM: So, that makes a lot of sense.
JS: It makes sense for him. He also had a son. So, when he died and was resurrected, his wife had sex with him. And that's how we got the god Horus, who is a hawk god.
AM: Interesting.
JS: And because she had sex with him while she was a bird.
AM: Okay.
JS: Yes.
AM: Not gonna try to unpack that.
JS: Nope.
AM: But it sounds like this guy has a lot in common with Maui.
JS: Yes.
AM: They could just together – is he also a fuck boy, Horus?
JS: I don't know enough about Horus to say if he's a fuck boy or not. I feel like most of the gods in the story --
AM: Not too good. Not too good.
JS: Actually, I was gonna say most of the Egyptian gods don't seem like fuck boys, but I could be wrong. I don't know enough about them to really call fuck boy or not.
AM: It does sound like these gods are less fuck boy than average because they're in service of like a competent woman holding shit together.
JS: Thank god for this competent woman.
AM: Ma'at, you know, so shall we all.
JS: Bless you, Ma'at.
AM: As does Ma'at, so shall we all.
JS: Bless you, Isis. Love, love both of you.
AM: The Egyptian god and not that the rebels. Yeah.
JS: Yes. Not – not the terrorist group. Thank you.
AM: So sorry, Ancient Egypt.
JS: Oh, man, they just ruined a perfectly good goddess --
AM: I know. I know.
JS: -- with their bullshit.
AM: All right. Well, we'll take her back.
JS: So, basically, that's it. I think kind of what I wanted to talk about is sort of the idea that, when we're describing our afterlives as a society and when we're creating an afterlife of society, it's very much reflective of the life that we lead as a society.
AM: Hell yeah.
JS: So, a particularly optimistic society is going to have an optimistic afterlife. Where a pessimistic society is going to have a pessimistic afterlife. And I just find that really, really interesting and really cool because obviously the Egyptians, despite living in a fucking desert, were super into this beautiful, idyllic utopian afterlife where they just got to hunt and live, and the bodies were still alive, and it's all good.
AM: And this afterlife does seem to have a lot more labor involved. Like I think it's so fascinating that one of the rewards of the afterlife is to be able to hunt and farm. And, when we learn about ancient Egypt in like our curricula, it's often, okay, you know, the Fertile Crescent and like the Nilta.
JS: Delta Nile.
AM: Delta Nile.
JS: I did the same thing before. It's really cool.
AM: That Nilta --
JS: That Nilta though.
AM: -- is both, you know, a gift of just how geography worked out, but also like all of their farming was like, like a hard one, you know, and like – and like pulled through skills.
JS: All about that flooding and stuff.
AM: Exactly. And I mean just the fact that like it's not as if, "Oh, you die, right?" Like, "Oh, your heart goes out or whatever." You know, whatever happens. Like suddenly you're dead and, "Oh, pearly gates. Hello," you know, which is the, the afterlife that we kind of grew up thinking about. Like it requires effort. It requires wiliness, you know, and knowledge. And, and, even after you get a successful judgment, I'm so taken with this idea that there are still like tests of faith waiting for you.
JS: Right. It's sort of like finishing college. And you've had all the success. You finally got there. You graduated. It's great. Now, you have to go through the process of finding a job. And – but, once you have that like concept and once you've gotten to that point where you can be stable and happy, that's – you know, we – you thrive there. And it's kind of beautiful in a way.
AM: Wow. I have never felt the difference in our dispositions as, as starkly as I do right now.
JS: Shut up.
AM: Because I was just going to say --
JS: Okay.
AM: -- adulthood is like never being sure if that date was the last one.
JS: Oh, dude. Okay. Yeah. I kind of see what you're saying. I was trying to be a little bit more idyllic about --
AM: Yes.
JS: -- jobs stuff --
AM: Yeah.
JS: -- and life in general,
AM: Which I am here for. And like I will be here to support you. But, but just, just this concept of like the afterlife being just like another phase and, and it has the same things where you have to try and you might fail. And then get to go back and there actually is like a hard end where like you could fuck it up enough that like you can't do it. But, also, that just like thinking that you've gotten what you want isn't the end, which is probably a good – a good thing to like ponder, you know, our own lives about. So, you opened the episode, Julia, talking about justice. And what is your kind of read on this particular, you know, version of like how to – how to judge a life.
JS: I want to make sure that I link to the 42 statements that they have to make in the show notes or something.
AM: Oh, yeah.
JS: Because it's very similar to the concept of like the 10 commandments in Christianity and Judaism and all that.
AM: You sort of like name the things you haven't done --
JS: Right.
AM: -- and the things that you ought not to do.
JS: Right. And these are very straightforward things. And a lot of it has to do with this is the societal contract that these people made in existing.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And, if they do not follow these things, they bring chaos and disorder into the world. And, therefore, fuck everything up for the rest of the people in the world and for Ma'at and for like – that means Ma'at has to fight just a little bit harder in order to keep balanced to the universe. And, so, I like the idea of justice for the Egyptians, because you are being judged on whether or not you did what you were supposed to do in life and if you made things easier for everyone else in your life.
AM: Which is like what a productive thing to judge people.
JS: Right. And it's not – it's not like judging away like, "Oh, he's, he's not gardening hard enough."
AM: To measure them up against. Right.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But it's, it's situations where you benefited everyone else in society, and you didn't take away from other people. And, so, therefore, you deserve happiness.
AM: That's really, really fascinating. It reminds me of two things. One, we were in Girl Scouts together.
JS: Yes, we were.
AM: Adorably. Kindergarten.
JS: Yes.
AM: Daisies into brownies into Girl Scouts. And the, the motto is, you know, I'm not going to attempt to quote it directly and fail it.
JS: No, I got it. Okay.
AM: Oh.
JS: In my honor, I will try to serve God in my country and to live by the Girl Scout law. Something like that. That's the only part I remember.
AM: There's more than that though.
JS: Okay.
AM: And what – like to put others before myself or something.
JS: Yeah.
AM: I'll link it in the show notes. But one of the – one of those precepts is like did I leave this place better than I found it.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, so, from everything from like life to are we leaving this campsite or this classroom better than we found it.
JS: Right.
AM: I think that's such like America and everything is improving at all times philosophy.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But, but I love that, if you leave this world, you know, neutral – if, if your impact on it has been neutral, like that is, in essence, a good life. And that is just like such a different worldview to the thing that we were raised under, which is like you must find individual fulfillment, and happiness, and achievement, and like make your mark, and like, you know, the world has to know your name, and like all these – all these things that I don't know. They're just like beaten into our heads. And that caused so much of that kind of, you know, adulthood, adolescence, post graduation crisis. But the second thing that it reminded me of is, as you know because you were there, I have a tattoo on my back of a bee.
JS: Yes.
AM: And, for me, the, the metaphor of that bee because bees are metaphor.
JS: The bee is a metaphor.
AM: The bee is a metaphor. Is that it is – it is holy and noble and, and worth it to be a smaller part of a bigger whole.
JS: Yeah. It's very much the, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
AM: Yeah. And that like, if, if my contribution can't be named, but in service of some larger goal or some larger good, helps advance that or help sustain the life of the hive, you know, so to speak. Like that – I regard that as a worthy purpose and a worthy thing to strive for in life. So, I love, I love that this is – that this is part of the thing we're talking about today. Also, I just got a bunch of weeds tattooed on me and I guess this means that it's tattoo corner. Link in the show notes. And, and even like – and they, they represent the flora of our hometown. And, as of now those weeds and grasses will heretofore have this metaphorical resonance for me of, you know, having left the world neutral is, is a positive contribution.
JS: So I think the moral of today's story is to go out into the world and make sure that you are leaving a positive balance in the world. Make sure your heart weighs less than the feather.
AM: And tattoo yourself responsibly y'all.
JS: Fair enough. Stay creepy.
AM: Stay cool.
Outro Music
AM: Spirits was created by Julia Schifini and me, Amanda McLoughlin. It's edited by Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
JS: Subscribe to Spirits on your preferred podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr @SpiritsPodcast.
AM: On our Patreon page, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, you can sign up for exclusive content like behind the scenes photos, audio extras, director's commentary, blooper reels, and beautiful recipe cards with custom drink and snack pairings.
JS: If you like the show, please share with your friends and leave us a review on iTunes. It really does help.
AM: Thank you so much for listening, ‘til next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil